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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: v8landy on August 10, 2008, 06:44:02 am

Title: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: v8landy on August 10, 2008, 06:44:02 am
Hi

I have been trying to find a definative answer on the correct Legal requirement of do you need to put up some sort of sign that states you have bees and that you can not be held resosible for the public being stung.

Via my local assocation I have public liablity insurance, but is that enought?

I am of the mind that "out of sight out of mind" i.e if people do not know the bees are there they will not go looking for trouble, but if they see a sign of bees they will start flapping about at anything that flys past.

A bit like this you tube link (very funny), OK it will not let me post a link. Just do youtube search for "bee keeper just for laughs"



NB I am in the UK.

Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 10, 2008, 07:15:51 am
I don't know about the laws in the UK, but here in the US, even if you put up signs, you can still be sued.  Putting up signs simply goes to show the court that you were being a responsible beekeeper, and it shifts some of the responsibility for being stung to the recipiant of the sting, which decreases the likihood of a judgement against you.  Though I tend to agree that it does increase the odds that someone will try to sue.

If you have liability insurance though, your insurance company should be willing to fight the suit on your behalf, and as long as you have more coverage than any claim being made, you would not be touchable by the plaintiffs.  The question is, how much is enough.  Well that all depends on the severity of the injury.  If a person just get's stung 1-10 times and has no severe reaction, less than 10,000 USD would be sufficient coverage, but now let's say someone that's severely allergic to bees gets stung and dies.  In that case, I would want about 4,000,000 USD in coverage.  However, in the state that I live in, the courts here would dismiss any such case, as the person who got stung is at least partially responsible for being close enough to the hive to get stung (as long as warnings are posted).  That's not the case in all states however.  California for example, will figure out the percentage of liability, and split any award by that percentage, so that if the judge decided that a bee sting was worth, say $4,000 and the courts found that the beekeeper was 25% responsible while the plaintiff was 75% responsible, the beekeeper would have to pay the plaintiff $1,000. 

Anyway, that's here, not there.  Just thought I'd share for the benefit of those here, hopefully someone else knows how it works there.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: v8landy on August 10, 2008, 09:56:06 am


8 walkers killed by cows in the last 10 years in the UK. I've never seen a sign "beware of the cows". I would be interested to know what litigation, if any, happened. And yet a cow sign is more important because Joe Public is not aware of the danger, whereas he is already wary of bees.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: BeeHopper on August 10, 2008, 10:08:40 am
I have warning signs indicating a " Working Honey Bee Yard " for stupid people who don't know what 15 hives and thousands of Bees flying about look like.    :-D
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Jerrymac on August 10, 2008, 10:50:44 am
I was told once by a...  lawyer I think it was..... or police officer :? .... that I should take down my beware of dog sign. It indicated that I knew the dog was dangerous and I would be held more accountable if the dog did happen to bite someone that walked into the yard. No trespassing signs would be better.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 10, 2008, 11:45:10 am
i like the big pictures of the revolver that i saw on a ranch fence.  that way you don't have to be specific and everyone understands.  i have never been able to find the signs :-)

Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 10, 2008, 11:45:35 am
Asking an insurance salesperson if you need insurance is like asking a Christian if Christ exists/existed.

If I posted warnings about all the dangers on my property or in my house, I'd need a billboard.

If a law existed that required me to post warning signs about honeybees, I'd do it. If I were in an urban area where curious or delinquent youngsters were likely to traverse my property, I'd fence in the bee yard. As it is, I advise invited visitors to stay 10 feet from the beehive and not to stand directly in front of it.

If anyone can cite case law regarding successful lawsuits against homeowners for bee stings, please do. I couldn't find any, but I'm guessing someone might, and the details of the cases would be enlightening.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 10, 2008, 04:10:59 pm
I was told once by a...  lawyer I think it was..... or police officer :? .... that I should take down my beware of dog sign. It indicated that I knew the dog was dangerous and I would be held more accountable if the dog did happen to bite someone that walked into the yard. No trespassing signs would be better.

That's why I just put 'BEES' on my warning sign.  People can figure out what that means in terms of their risk of danger for themselves.  Although it really doesn't matter in the state of TN.  All I have to prove is that they were partially responsible for their own injuries.  If they are even 1% responsible, the case gets dismissed.  The bigger issue for me though, is that I just don't want any of my neighbors to get themselves stung, because if they don't, then there isn't likely to be any strained relations with them, and they aren't as likely to try and get a beekeeping ban added to the county books.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Card on August 10, 2008, 05:01:36 pm
Quote from: v8landy
8 walkers killed by cows in the last 10 years in the UK.
Holy crap. What kind of cows are you people raising over there?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Hayesbo on August 10, 2008, 06:40:58 pm
I have a neighbor that accused me of having bee hives at the house. I don't, my bee yard is 3 miles away on my parents property. I do extract there at the house and it does look like a horror movie for two days after the extraction.

The neighbor threatened to sue if anyone in his family was stung. I sent the message back that he would have to save the offending bee so that we could check it for my apaiary tag to prove it was one of mine. I haven't heard back from him yet. :evil: :evil:

best to all,  Steve
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 10, 2008, 07:47:30 pm
Holy crap. What kind of cows are you people raising over there?

Mad cows.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: octagon on August 10, 2008, 08:05:01 pm
I would put up nothing, the bees don't have a GPS and recording system when they leave the hive and how is anyone going to prove the sting is from one of your bees, will they keep the bee and have it and your queen tested for DNA.
 as i've said before, why rock the boat. if they get stung by a non african bee away from the hive, they probably deserved it.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 10, 2008, 08:28:04 pm
I would put up nothing, the bees don't have a GPS and recording system when they leave the hive and how is anyone going to prove the sting is from one of your bees, will they keep the bee and have it and your queen tested for DNA.
 as i've said before, why rock the boat. if they get stung by a non african bee away from the hive, they probably deserved it.

Two things:

Unlike criminal court, in civil court, the plaintiff only has to have 51% likelihood that your actions led to their loss or injury... they don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  The fact that you have hives nearby puts that likelihood well over 51%...

Second, they don't have to sue you to cause you all kinds of problems, either.  They can lobby your county board to ban beekeeping in the county. 

Why not act with more responsibility than irresponsibility?  Not acting responsibly will always cause you more grief in the end, than acting responsibly will.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 10, 2008, 09:03:49 pm
I repeat: If anyone can cite case law regarding successful lawsuits against homeowners for bee stings, please do.

Is it possible to be, in this conversation, reacting more to the FEAR of injury and litigation than the REALITY of either?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: woodchopper on August 10, 2008, 09:06:24 pm
i like the big pictures of the revolver that i saw on a ranch fence.  that way you don't have to be specific and everyone understands.  i have never been able to find the signs :-)


Never mind the dog....beware of owner. Ann and I have that one on the back slider at our house up in Maine. Our bee yard in Maine has a sign as well as warning signs affixed to the electric fence.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Card on August 10, 2008, 10:24:48 pm
Quote from: SgtMaj
Mad cows.
No doubt... I mean, we used to sneak out into the fields at night and try to push them over, and they'd chase us around a little bit sometimes - but nobody died. It's hard for me to imagine a cow killing somebody unless you were practically handicapped or doing something abysmally stupid.
Something tells me I'm going to regret posting that comment on an open forum, because somebody is going to show up with a gut-wrenching story about how their entire family was wiped out by rampaging blood-thirsty cows, leaving them an orphan, and my comments are thoughtless and hurtful.  8-)


Quote from: Hayesbo
The neighbor threatened to sue if anyone in his family was stung.
Comments like that make me appreciate where I live. My neighbors all thanked me for keeping bees (some so much that it was a little embarrassing, quite frankly) and my 81-year old next-door neighbor brought me a chocolate pie last week, because she said my bees had done wonders for her flowers this year.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: octagon on August 10, 2008, 11:10:55 pm
I would put up nothing, the bees don't have a GPS and recording system when they leave the hive and how is anyone going to prove the sting is from one of your bees, will they keep the bee and have it and your queen tested for DNA.
 as i've said before, why rock the boat. if they get stung by a non african bee away from the hive, they probably deserved it.

Two things:

Unlike criminal court, in civil court, the plaintiff only has to have 51% likelihood that your actions led to their loss or injury... they don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  The fact that you have hives nearby puts that likelihood well over 51%...

Second, they don't have to sue you to cause you all kinds of problems, either.  They can lobby your county board to ban beekeeping in the county. 

Why not act with more responsibility than irresponsibility?  Not acting responsibly will always cause you more grief in the end, than acting responsibly will.
didn't know you was an attorney. I could just see them banning bees in our county, what a laugh.do you think they'll put a bounty on them so we can hunt them down in the woods like rabid foxes? get real and stop trying to scare people. we don't need any more regulations. I still stand by what i said. you do what ever you want to.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: v8landy on August 11, 2008, 07:51:34 am
Its not the cows that are the problem in the UK it is the people!

Its the same with the bees.

I do not have a problem with my neighbours and my bees, it was a coment made on a UK site.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Card on August 11, 2008, 08:03:31 am
I think we need to make it clear here that people really need to check their local laws before assuming too much based on what they read on an internet forum. In the US, laws that cover liability, responsibility, and compensation vary radically from state to state. European law (where civil courts don't even have a provision for punitive damages) is fundamentally different as well.

If it's a major concern I'd talk to a local attorney about it, I think - but unless you have genuinely troublesome neighbors I don't think I'd consider it a major concern.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 11, 2008, 08:31:28 am
I repeat: If anyone can cite case law regarding successful lawsuits against homeowners for bee stings, please do.

Is it possible to be, in this conversation, reacting more to the FEAR of injury and litigation than the REALITY of either?

I CAN cite cases where neighbor's of beekeepers have successfully banned the practice of beekeeping in that county.  Isn't that enough?

EDIT: I did find a case for ya... John Black and Alejandro Mercado were successfully sued for $1,591,000 in compensatory damages and $75,000 punitive damages after the death of Santos Flores, Sr. who died of anaphylactic shock triggered by a bee sting in 1994.  The case was appealed and the defendants lost the appeal in 2003.  This was in Texas.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 11, 2008, 08:46:01 am
I would put up nothing, the bees don't have a GPS and recording system when they leave the hive and how is anyone going to prove the sting is from one of your bees, will they keep the bee and have it and your queen tested for DNA.
 as i've said before, why rock the boat. if they get stung by a non african bee away from the hive, they probably deserved it.

Two things:

Unlike criminal court, in civil court, the plaintiff only has to have 51% likelihood that your actions led to their loss or injury... they don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  The fact that you have hives nearby puts that likelihood well over 51%...

Second, they don't have to sue you to cause you all kinds of problems, either.  They can lobby your county board to ban beekeeping in the county. 

Why not act with more responsibility than irresponsibility?  Not acting responsibly will always cause you more grief in the end, than acting responsibly will.
didn't know you was an attorney. I could just see them banning bees in our county, what a laugh.do you think they'll put a bounty on them so we can hunt them down in the woods like rabid foxes? get real and stop trying to scare people. we don't need any more regulations. I still stand by what i said. you do what ever you want to.

I'm not, but I have taken a few law classes.

The bottom line though, is why act in an irresponsible way that may result in someone getting stung needlessly?  Beekeeping already has enough enemies, why make another that didn't have to be?  Of course, if you've got 100 acres and your hives are in the middle where people shouldn't be anyway, that's one thing.  But if you've got your hives placed within 30 feet of someone else's property, or a public place, you should act responsibly and post a sign.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 11, 2008, 10:39:09 am
Quote
But if you've got your hives placed within 30 feet of someone else's property, or a public place, you should act responsibly and post a sign.

gotta disagree.  seems like an invitation for a couple of things.  theft of hives, kids messing in hives, and lawsuits.  better to say nothing.  most people won't notice.

i, too, am lucky that my neighbors love my bees.  better flowers.  better gardens.  one neighbor grows blueberries.  has had bumper crops since i started keeping  :-)

Brits don't get our state system :-).  my sister is constantly trying to explain to her husband about the difference between state and federal stuff. 

that's ok.  i have a good time with him.  he's very green.  i told him i switched to florescent lights and i kind of like them.  he was so excited.  then i told him that the one problem i had was that they took so long to warm up.  "not to worry", i told him...... "i turn them on at noon and they are warmed up and bright by dark".  i thought he'd stroke out over the phone  :evil:
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 11, 2008, 11:18:55 am

I CAN cite cases where neighbor's of beekeepers have successfully banned the practice of beekeeping in that county.  Isn't that enough?

EDIT: I did find a case for ya... John Black and Alejandro Mercado were successfully sued for $1,591,000 in compensatory damages and $75,000 punitive damages after the death of Santos Flores, Sr. who died of anaphylactic shock triggered by a bee sting in 1994.  The case was appealed and the defendants lost the appeal in 2003.  This was in Texas.

Flores was hired by Black specifically to move some beehives Black had recently purchased from Wilhelm. Black provided protective equipment but 1) did not specifically warn Flores about the possibility of anaphylactic shock and 2) did not have Flores tested for allergic reaction before hiring him to move bees.

Only Wilhelm appealed. Wilhelm won the appeal since he did not hire (control) Flores.

Further: ... Nor would Wilhelm, as occupier of the premises where the beehives were kept, have owed an independent contractor’s employees a duty to warn them about being stung, since that danger was obvious.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Tex/04-0208.html



Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 11, 2008, 11:44:13 am
Flores was hired by Black specifically to move some beehives Black had recently purchased from Wilhelm. Black provided protective equipment but 1) did not specifically warn Flores about the possibility of anaphylactic shock and 2) did not have Flores tested for allergic reaction before hiring him to move bees.

Only Wilhelm appealed. Wilhelm won the appeal since he did not hire (control) Flores.

Further: ... Nor would Wilhelm, as occupier of the premises where the beehives were kept, have owed an independent contractor’s employees a duty to warn them about being stung, since that danger was obvious.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/states/Tex/04-0208.html


Ah, I didn't see that he had won in the supreme court, only that he had lost in the appellete court.  But either way, the beekeeper still had to pay.  Really though, in such a highly litigous society where McDonalds gets sued successfully for serving hot coffee, hot... and in a society where more than 90% of people haven't even seen a beehive in person, how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

The more interresting thing about that case, was that even though they were moving honey bees, the guy had gone off into the woods, away from the hives when he got stung several times which means he may not have even been stung by the honey bees.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 11, 2008, 04:40:32 pm
how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

When hobbyist beekeepers post danger signs (lions and tigers and bees, oh my!) and buy extra liability insurance and personal injury lawyers find out ($$)  :)
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: tlynn on August 11, 2008, 10:55:20 pm
how long do you think it will take for people to start suing beeks for stings?

When hobbyist beekeepers post danger signs (lions and tigers and bees, oh my!) and buy extra liability insurance and personal injury lawyers find out ($$)  :)


Couldn't agree more.

If a landlord in Florida knew or should have known a tenant was harboring a dangerous dog and didn't act to cure the dangerous situation and it bit somebody on the property, the landlord could be liable for damages.  Then again, in Florida a "bad dog" sign reduces liability of a property owner if his dog bites someone.  Could a bee warning sign reduce liability or could it be an acknowledgment that the beekeeper knows he has a dangerous situation?  I can't find any case law in Florida, at least, that addresses the question.  So I'd imagine it's anybody's guess.

All in all, I'd say putting up a "Danger - bees" sign will do nothing but invite problems where none existed.  Imagine the neighbor working in the garden and getting tagged by a yellow jacket while digging  in the dirt.  She then remembers your bee sign and immediately assumes it was one of your bees.  If she didn't know about your bees she would rightly chalk the experience up to the hazards of being outdoors.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Brian D. Bray on August 12, 2008, 01:00:55 am
Having been a cop, from that perspective, I post signs that read "Warning, Bee Hives." 

My bee hives are at least 75 feet from the closest property line yet if some tresspasser where to get stung while crossing my property there is still a liability under civil law.  The fact that I not only have a fence around my property plus signage (an additional fence around the bees is in the future) means that I have taken reasonable care to warn and advise everyone of the potential danger.  The fences make it possible for me to counter sue for tresspass (further putting liability on the person stung and puts forth the argument the person was stung while committing a criminal offense) where not having them would indicate access was permissable.

Laws can be complex things to wade through which is why lawyers charge so much.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 12, 2008, 09:36:14 am
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 12, 2008, 09:59:55 am
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125671.html#msg125671
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125753.html#msg125753
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125822.html#msg125822
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125840.html#msg125840
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125876.html#msg125876
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17144.msg125908.html#msg125908
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Jerrymac on August 12, 2008, 10:26:07 am
How many states have a purple post law?

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.007.00.000030.00.htm#30.05.00

.........(D)  the placement of identifying purple paint
marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks
are:
            (i)  vertical lines of not less than eight
inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
            (ii)  placed so that the bottom of the mark
is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet
from the ground;  and.............
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2008, 10:26:41 am
Quote
if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

ok, i'm pretty sure that we can chalk that question up to lack of coffee!

want to try again?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2008, 10:28:34 am
Quote
How many states have a purple post law?

that's pretty cool.  i think i may have to move to TX  :-D
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 12, 2008, 11:18:12 am
Quote
if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

ok, i'm pretty sure that we can chalk that question up to lack of coffee!

want to try again?

Not really.  It was pointing out that the message you send when doing things in secret is that they are NOT ok.  That is the message you send the rest of the community and it helps reinforce the fears that the media has instilled in people.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: dpence on August 12, 2008, 11:35:12 am
I have warning signs indicating a " Working Honey Bee Yard " for stupid people who don't know what 15 hives and thousands of Bees flying about look like.    :-D

You have some of those people in your neighborhood too?  :shock: :evil: :-D

Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2008, 11:45:33 am
Quote
was pointing out that the message you send when doing things in secret is that they are NOT ok

maybe i should put a sign on my car that informs folk that i carry, and if they try to car jack i'll shoot them!  i could put a sign on the front door that says "this house is full of guns. enter at your own risk"? 

IF, god forbid, i lived in the city and kept bees, i might consider a warning....  out here, my two biggest risks either do not read, or do not read english.  for everyone else, there is buckshot.

keeping a thing quiet does not imply guilt.

there are probably places where signs are required?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: tlynn on August 12, 2008, 11:46:57 am
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

Because people have irrational fears, which usually are out of proportion to the risk.  Driving to the airport vs. traveling on a plane, for example.  Mark Twain said something like, "I have known a great many problems in my life, most of which never actually occurred."
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 12, 2008, 12:46:42 pm
maybe i should put a sign on my car that informs folk that i carry, and if they try to car jack i'll shoot them!  i could put a sign on the front door that says "this house is full of guns. enter at your own risk"? 

So... you're saying I shouldn't have those signs up either?
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: octagon on August 12, 2008, 01:01:20 pm
I figure if some bird brain on this planet don't know that a stack of painted boxes out in a field usually mean that Bees live there, then they derserve to get stung and i'll take my chances in court.
  A few yrs ago i used to see signs in many car windows that said "Baby On Board", it didn't mean a thing except that the person had a baby, no one slowed down or drove any different.
   the same as a Bees on Land sign would do, it just tells the world that they have bees and if you want to get stung, go over and slap the pretty boxes, if you want to watch them come and go, stand back and watch.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: utahbeekeeper on August 12, 2008, 01:02:32 pm
<<<<<< inner city, albeit in an atypical section.  Hives not visible from street in spring, summer and fall.  In winter they look like three piles of snow.  Would not ever consider a sign.  I do have a really cool "Whirly Gig" honey bee in front yard along creek tho!  I would try my best to educate should anyone voice concern, which has not happened in 3 years  (sound of knuckles on wood)   LOL to Kathy, my "fellow" veteran.  you rock!!!
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Bee-Bop on August 12, 2008, 01:37:10 pm
Missouri has the purple paint law, only trouble is none of the city people know what it means !

I know there are at least two practicing Attorneys that post regularly on this forum, I notice neither have commented on this thread, just some S_ H_ lawyers !

Again;
 Take every thing you see on the net with a grain of salt !

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: 1of6 on August 12, 2008, 02:08:00 pm
"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

That answer is probably somewhere in between.  Some of us have situations where a sign is warranted and proper.  Others don't have those requirements.  No use faulting someone for wanting to do the right thing.  That'd be like calling someone names for praying.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2008, 02:12:02 pm
well....that's way to rational a response for this fun converstation....but, you are probably right.  there are probably some requirements for some people.  and some people do feel the urge to 'be responsible'.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Card on August 12, 2008, 03:18:27 pm
You know, there's a flipside to all of this...


If one of your bees is in your neighbor's yard, and the neighbor or his children get stung, then your bee will die as a result of stinging them, right?


So sue your neighbor for planting flowers in his or her yard, failing to secure aforementioned flowers, and thereby creating an attractive nuisance which led a poor innocent honeybee to his death - causing you significant emotional pain, and major financial losses.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: eri on August 12, 2008, 04:09:33 pm
Why waste words?  ;)
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8392/beenr4.th.jpg) (http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beenr4.jpg)
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Moonshae on August 12, 2008, 09:45:44 pm
Local regulations notwithstanding, if I had beehives located at a "pick-your-own" farm, I'd put signs up. People could wander too close without noticing the hives, just looking around...I've seen plenty of oblivious people. It could also be informative to the curious, enticing them to look but not get too close. I'm not putting them in my backyard; I have .19 acres, both my next door neighbors know I have bees and think it's cool. No one goes into my backyard except me and my wife. I have some hives on some farms, and I don't put signs there, either. The farmer knows they are there, and no one else goes there.

Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: SgtMaj on August 12, 2008, 09:57:32 pm
Why waste words?  ;)

There's no need to point out that they can sting... again, all you have to post is 'bees'.  That's all I'm going to post.  That way no one will get the idea that they are dangerous, and people can be aware of them so they can keep their distance if they so choose.

I have to conceide that different situations require different measures.  There is at least one member on here who lives in a county in which it's illegal to keep bees, and in that case I certainly wouldn't put up signs (I'd still keep the bees by the way).  Or if your bees are well behind a fenced in area, I would have to agree that there's no need to post anything.  Or if you've got a lot of property with no trespassing signs up, and the hives are not near the property line, then I wouldn't put up signs in hopes that the bees WOULD sting trespassers.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: dhood on August 13, 2008, 12:31:31 am
I put up one of the generic signs near the rear side of a beeyard facing the neighbor's property line, this beeyard is on my fathers land so I wanted to be cautious. And I would agree, the signs, along with the fact that they can visibly see the hives seems to make the neighbors weary. I wish I hadn't put it up, but now that it's done, I feel like taking them down now would be even more of a liability. If you don't already have them up, I would suggest a privacy fence. From my experience the neighbors don't seem to mind as much if they are not constantly reminded that they are there.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Jerrymac on August 13, 2008, 01:57:01 am
Now here is a question....

What if you don't have bees but someone gets stung on your property and has a really bad reaction?

Perhaps everyone should put up signs as bees could bee any where. My first sting was at age five in my Aunt's back yard. They were not beekeepers. Who knows where the bee came from.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Hayesbo on August 13, 2008, 06:37:21 am
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

Anyone ever drive by a pasture or a gate over dirt track into the woods and see the sign that says "POSTED No hunting or fishing" ? You can see why someone would want to hunt either in the field or the woods. I always say to myself. "Ohh, they have a lake back there?? wonder if I know the owner, wonder what the lake looks like, wonder if there are any fish."

I fish maybe once a year but I always wish I could go more.  Those signs always make me wonder why they put a no fishing sign when you can't see a pond.

Steve
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: octagon on August 13, 2008, 09:31:44 am
To those of you who don't want to put up signs... if you truely believed that there wasn't anything wrong with keeping bees, why wouldn't you be willing to let others know you're doing it?

 I just think it's anyones business what I'm doing on my property long as i'm not doing anything illegal to damage their property. My bees are registered because the law says they have to be, i don't sell honey, i don't remove swarms from houses and i'm not interested in buying anyones used hives, they are about 400 yds from anyones property so in my case, signs are unneccessary. i'm sure one of my labs would nip anyone in the rearend before they got near the hives anyway, they set out there and watch the bees more than i do. everyone that needs to know that i have bees knows it.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: williamswilliamd4 on August 19, 2019, 06:01:19 pm
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Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: williamswilliamd4 on August 19, 2019, 06:08:17 pm
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Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Hops Brewster on August 20, 2019, 05:13:42 pm
"Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

A search of this or other beek forums will result in many instances of people that put up signs or warned their neighbors that they were going to get a beehive, with the result that neighbors started complaining about stings even before the hive was acquired.

My $.02,  what they don't know won't hurt them,  but what they think they know will get you blamed for every yellow jacket sting in the neighborhood.
Follow your local ordinances and keep a low profile.  Every Christmas when I take around my little gift of honey to the neighbors, half of them say "Oh, I didn't know you had bees."




Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Ben Framed on August 20, 2019, 11:28:57 pm
"Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

A search of this or other beek forums will result in many instances of people that put up signs or warned their neighbors that they were going to get a beehive, with the result that neighbors started complaining about stings even before the hive was acquired.

My $.02,  what they don't know won't hurt them,  but what they think they know will get you blamed for every yellow jacket sting in the neighborhood.
Follow your local ordinances and keep a low profile.  Every Christmas when I take around my little gift of honey to the neighbors, half of them say "Oh, I didn't know you had bees."

Yep, out of sight, out of mind.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: FatherMichael on August 21, 2019, 06:52:19 pm
I'm thinking of putting up a sign like this on the gate to the property I've contracted for an apiary.  I know two things.  First, people drive down that road to have a picnic and, second, the bees I plan to put there next year are feral bees from South Texas of a known heritage.

WARNING
Africanized Bees
Not responsible for trespassers that die a horrible death
From anaphylactic shock due to multiple bee stings.

May need to post it in Spanish, too.

Dr. Seely reports that bees in Upstate New York have African genes.  I doubt that a single bee in North America does not have African genes in some measure.  Everyone has heard of killer African bees.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Ben Framed on August 21, 2019, 11:45:22 pm
I'm thinking of putting up a sign like this on the gate to the property I've contracted for an apiary.  I know two things.  First, people drive down that road to have a picnic and, second, the bees I plan to put there next year are feral bees from South Texas of a known heritage.

WARNING
Africanized Bees
Not responsible for trespassers that die a horrible death
From anaphylactic shock due to multiple bee stings.

May need to post it in Spanish, too.



Haa Haa not that is funny!

Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: BeeMaster2 on August 23, 2019, 09:09:40 am
"Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

A search of this or other beek forums will result in many instances of people that put up signs or warned their neighbors that they were going to get a beehive, with the result that neighbors started complaining about stings even before the hive was acquired.

My $.02,  what they don't know won't hurt them,  but what they think they know will get you blamed for every yellow jacket sting in the neighborhood.
Follow your local ordinances and keep a low profile.  Every Christmas when I take around my little gift of honey to the neighbors, half of them say "Oh, I didn't know you had bees."





One of our bee inspectors received a complaint saying he was getting stung by his neighbors bees. After talking to the person complaining, he went to the neighbor to check the hives. Turned out that he was thinking about getting bees and told his neighbor but he still did not have any bees yet.
Before I got my first hive, I talked to all of the property owners that were up against my property. Everyone was ok except the last one. He went biz-ark on me, threatened to kill me if his wife got stung and has never talked to me since. That was in 2010. If I could do a redo, I would not have told him.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Anonimo22 on August 24, 2019, 06:15:43 am
A lot of the veteran beeks that have been doing it forever, often say they wouldn't advertise and still keep their hives out of sight whenever possible. (I think they mean even if you think you are in the right.)

Personally, my opinion here doesn't count for much; but I want to say that people don't act rationally. They will time and time again, bite the hand that feeds them. I've seen this my whole life. Humans species do this more than animals and its completely bizarre. Just yesterday I tried to help someone and they chewed me out verbally.

Another thing homo sapiens do is they have this irrational tendency to assign value to something based on only its outer appearance at the expense of all other virtues. And they'll even do it when something is pretty but has no virtues at all. (In disputes this can make them completely irrational and unpredictable.)

Homo sapians also likes to assign value to listening to sports idols, entertainment & popular icons, social media idols and so on, and will listen to these people give advise even if such people are drug addicts or good for nothing with brain damage, and put their opinion above people who actually have studied issues out, and use their brain power constantly trying to help people solve problems.

So I hope pointing out these 'species traits' will help you with your homo sapians management aspect of your beekeeping.

:) :) :)

Not being negative here, but just wanted to point out the species traits of the species you are trying to figure out in relation to your hive management behavior. I think the points above, directly affect your decision on signs and advertising your hive locations.

Good luck.

PS; homo sapians don't make very good honey on their own. They have also high robbing tendencies that homo sapians keepers have been trying to breed out for years and never have fully gotten rid of (and some say its increased), and they also require obscene amounts of space for their brood chambers with very slow buildup. But they are pretty good at cockroach and rodent resistance hygienics.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Michael Bush on August 26, 2019, 06:43:30 pm
My position is never tell the neighbors you are getting bees.  After they notice (and they will eventually) everything they would have imagined has already not happened.  Telling them you are getting bees is like telling them you have a martian in your basement.  It's incomprehensible to them.  They picture millions of stinging insects roaming their yard looking for someone to sting...
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Anonimo22 on August 27, 2019, 10:47:55 am
I have warning signs indicating a " Working Honey Bee Yard " for stupid people who don't know what 15 hives and thousands of Bees flying about look like.    :-D

Can you post some pics? Please...

Sounds really neat to see.
Title: Re: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: Anonimo22 on August 27, 2019, 10:55:40 am
Quote from: v8landy
8 walkers killed by cows in the last 10 years in the UK.
Holy crap. What kind of cows are you people raising over there?

That kind of stuff happens here too.

Relative is a (farm type, not a get rich schemer type) veterinarian. All of his serious injuries were from cattle and bulls. Especially the bulls are nuts. Sometimes they'll for no reason at all after years of being patient kick people. Know a few people kicked by both cows and horses. Both are deadly.

But people don't like to talk about it because they love animals.
Some of them can be prevented by not walking right behind them, except the bulls act weird whenever there's no cows near it some people say. Some cattle people will say the animals stay calmer with their 'friends' near them, and can get scared more easily when they aren't. And sometimes we'd see animals start to get riled up when the painkillers were wearing off in the middle of surgery and stuff. That could get wild and you'd have to act fast.

Sometimes people know their animal is more aggressive than normal and they don't put it down or phase it out for whatever reason. (This was what happened on one accident I know of.)

But still its amazing there aren't more accidents. A lot of the cattle corals can be really big for the commercial farmers. Relative X was telling me for their vet internship they'd worked out near Nebraska at this one outfit that had about a hundred thousand cattle in it. I was kind of shocked they can even get that big. (With that many of them in one place you start to think wow the number of accidents is actually pretty low compared to how many of them there are.)
Title: Saftey warning signs or not?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on August 27, 2019, 02:16:09 pm
Best practice is to keep a low profile.  Keep beehives out of site and best bee away from populated areas. Imho, Do not post signs or say anything or register anything unless required by law.  The area apiculturalists usually strongly advise the - out if sight out of mind - approach.  They are the ones taking the calls and concerns.  They do not like getting calls any more than you like them showing up having to deal with it. 

Imho - Generally speaking, in terms of PR; as much as the general public is all hyped up about bees nowadays the reality is people and beehives just do not mix well at all.  Folks will appreciate seeing the odd bee in their gardens and lawns. They also like the idea of bees and the saving the planet. However, the sight if a full blown beehive in action and what is involved in keeping bees is usually overwhelming and downright frightening to all of your neighbours.

For you and the PR of your local beekeeping community, it is best to keep your bee activities on a -need to know only- basis. Some suggestions are:  If you are in town, tell your immediate overthefence next door neighbour on each side. No one else. If the closest neighbour is more than 50 yards out, tell no one. Those you have told, periodically Invite them over from to participate or simply observed the beehive on the days you know the bees are in a good mood. Always follow the bylaws as well as be practical and rational about where the laws fall short. What that means is do not be stupid; as example do not put 50 hives in your backyard near a school zone!  Try to setup so the hive(s) tucked out of sight near a shrub or such so any of those nosy fence climbing lookie-loos have nothing to see to be waving hands about.