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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 07, 2013, 11:10:39 pm

Title: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 07, 2013, 11:10:39 pm
I have made some foundation by pulling window screen through wax. What size cells will be built ?
Thanks,
Drew
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Vance G on January 08, 2013, 02:05:04 am
That depends on what size cells they are used to producing and what size cells they need when they draw it.  That is a novel idea.  What made you think of it? 
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 08, 2013, 04:50:57 am
I had lots of old comb & needed foundation :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 04:53:22 am
Definitely a cool idea.  I have used screened inner covers in the past for observation purposes, and the bees sure don’t hesitate to hang comb from the stuff.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 08, 2013, 09:24:15 am
Hard to tell what the bees will think of it since the screen is flat and combs are not.  The bottoms of cells go back and forth along the midrib.  But as far as size it will vary greatly depending on the size of the bees you started with, the use the comb is built for, the latitude you live at, the time of year etc.  I see everything from 4.4mm to 5.1mm for brood comb and all the way up to 7.0mm for honey and drones.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 08, 2013, 11:53:45 am
If everyone switched to screen foundation what size cells would be built ? They would get smaller ? If B's were not locked in to this variable would it allow desirable genetics to better express their advantage ?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 12:03:28 pm
If everyone switched to screen foundation what size cells would be built ? They would get smaller ? If B's were not locked in to this variable would it allow desirable genetics to better express their advantage ?


Do you think, do they make 4 angle or 6 angle cells onto screen?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: edward on January 08, 2013, 01:16:37 pm
If everyone switched to screen foundation what size cells would be built ? They would get smaller ? If B's were not locked in to this variable would it allow desirable genetics to better express their advantage ?

And when honey production falls because the bees produce less honey the whole world can import more quality honey from china  :-X

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 01:28:33 pm
.

When I take my own wax and give it to foundation company, it makes to me foundations and take 4 dollars per kilo.

It is 700g price of honey.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 08, 2013, 03:16:45 pm
-B interested to see the affect of 4 sided sell on brood development if you see a link.
-Or honey production skyrockets because of healthier B's, more beeks ... ? :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 08, 2013, 03:52:30 pm
-B interested to see the affect of 4 sided sell on brood development if you see a link.
-Or honey production skyrockets because of healthier B's, more beeks ... ? :)

Honey yield depends on pastures, but I am afraid of overgrazing if hives are too healthy and mighty
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 04:41:43 pm
Drew, I think your window screen idea is ingenious for making large brood frames.  However the downside is the bees will build all sorts of cell sizes on it.  That limits your ability to knock down the varroa mites via drone cell removal since the drone cells will be spread out among the other cells.  Maybe you can deal with varroa in some other manner.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 08, 2013, 05:42:09 pm
Bluebee, Thankx, no indication that they will build it out any different than foundation-less, haven't seen anything on it, perhaps, whatever it is they build, will help with varroa ? If I want nice endless expanse of worker brood I have to choose a size to imprint ? That might be more responsibility than I want.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 08, 2013, 06:22:47 pm
What I really like about your screen idea is if you have scrape it down (wax moths, too many drones, etc), or if the bees harvest wax from it, I suspect they will rebuild on the raw screen later due to the roughness of the material.  Such isn't the case with a smooth substrate.  I also like the idea of allowing the bees to build whatever they want.  My only fear with that plan is it removes one of my tools for dealing with varroa. (drone culling).

How are you attaching the screen to the frame?  
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: little john on January 08, 2013, 06:48:40 pm
I think it's a bloody brilliant idea. I would have said so on 'that other forum', but doing so would have only upset a certain petulant person.

The kind of mesh I already have for my own experiment is ex-China (like most things these days) - and sold as Window Fly Screen. It's got a 2mm mesh size, which I can't see influencing the bees at all, and is only a few thou thick. I've tried tearing it, and I can't - so it's tough stuff.

I can see it being used with frames instead of foundation, and as a reinforcing substrate with Top Bars: no more collapsed combs; no more skewed combs, and should a comb come adrift due to rough handling - that mesh will act as a hinge, and keep the comb attached - so no more dropped combs producing clouds of miffed bees ...

Brilliant - simply brilliant - best idea I've heard yet (assuming the bees take to it, of course).

LJ

Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 08, 2013, 07:03:19 pm
Bluebee, Perhaps the need for the invention of core-sampler type tool,(like greenskeepers use) to pull comb plugs ? Hot melt glue gun... rules ! :) use for frames as well, very solid, haven't done stress test yet :)

LJ, I cut the corners and left 2" gap in middle of mine to allow passage thru frames, have idea that queen would prefer it. I have thought in handling sample that I could make everything from sailboat to bullet proof vest out of the stuff. :)
Cheers,
Drew
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 09, 2013, 09:45:24 am
>What I really like about your screen idea is if you have scrape it down (wax moths, too many drones, etc), or if the bees harvest wax from it, I suspect they will rebuild on the raw screen later due to the roughness of the material.

But I use no foundation with a wood guide and just scrape it down to the wood and they rebuild it fine...
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 09, 2013, 10:44:01 am
Michael,
-have you come up against any size limitations in managing foundation-less comb ? My hope is to facilitate management of combs I am finding in cutouts, (4'+)
-would you expect foundation to accelerate cell/comb construction ?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 04:36:23 pm
Obviously none of you excited about this have Duraguilt experience.   Bees do not take a liking to build comb off a flat surface and will do everything they can not to.   I think you will get plenty of burr type combs between your frames.   Bees build comb down, working both sides.   How many cut-out have you done where the bees use the vertical wall as "foundation" to build cells off of?

I appreciate thinking outside the box,  but form my experience,  I don't foresee a high probably of success.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 09, 2013, 05:28:12 pm
Quote
Bees do not take a liking to build comb off a flat surface and will do everything they can not to.
Tell me why they use foundation.
When I worked for a medical company we used a lot of "spun lace" as a web strengthener for adhesives.  The material is non woven and very strong like tyvek.  I was thinking you could silk screen the hex pattern on this material to make foundation.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 09, 2013, 05:30:36 pm
Robo,
The surface is not flat. More correct to say, "With this method the surface is under the control of the beekeeper."
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 09, 2013, 09:12:38 pm
Tell me why they use foundation.

I'm not a bee whisperer,  so can't tell you why.

I can speculate it is because the foundation has the impressions that fool the bees into believing it is the start of comb.  Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb.  When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core.   Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 02:37:38 am
I have had the buggers build some (not a lot) of comb ON the vertical sides of some of my all foam nucs when they ran out of space on combs and I’ve had them completely ignore the PF frames that didn’t have enough wax.   So in my mind, it’s a crap shoot, but I will bet on you Drew. 

My jumbo hives have frames that are 14.5” deep.  I just use 1 and half plastic pierco foundations to build them.  It provides mechanical support and keeps the big combs flat.  If the big combs start getting wonky on you, then you have a REAL mess.  The other reason I use plastic foundation in my jumbo brood frames is because I want as many workers in those frames as possible.  I give the bees room above the brood to raise drones and do my drone/mite culling.  If the bees mix drones and workers on one giant frame, it would be difficult to do drone/mite culling (if you want to do that). 
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 05:46:14 am
Tell me why they use foundation.

Because a beekeepers put foundations in there. There is 150 years experience that it is a fine job. Bees do not need them, but beekeepers do.
Bees need only a dark cavity where to build their nest

No one use foundations  for  fun. It is quite a job to make wire holes into frame pieces, wire them and set expencive foundations.

Many think that they are better humans when they do not use foundations and they use natural combs.  Nothing new in that. So they all did 150 years ago.  A beekeeper is not at least better human if the bees do his all work.  

***********************
Matthew said 6:26-30

 Look at the birds in the sky! They don’t plant or harvest. They don’t even store grain in barns. Yet your Father in heaven takes care of them. Aren’t you worth more than birds?

At least Matthew did not know much about biology like about bees or squirrels but many keeps him as a wise guy.
.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2013, 09:07:45 am
Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

No, but in all things beekeeping once a solution is found and accepted there is no looking forward for other solutions.  Keep in mind that the beekeeping industry is focused on serving the needs of commercial beekeepers not the back yard beekeeper.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 10, 2013, 09:17:44 am
No, but in all things beekeeping once a solution is found and accepted there is no looking forward for other solutions.
I don't disagree, but going from foundation with impressions to flat wax is going backwards.   The logical progression would have been flat sheet (did not work) and then advance forward to impressions.

Quote
  Keep in mind that the beekeeping industry is focused on serving the needs of commercial beekeepers not the back yard beekeeper.

I wasn't referring to the industry,  but to the independent "natural" foundation producers like Fat Beeman,  Dee Lusby and others.   It is a lot of work to produce foundation by hand and a lot of expense to invest in a mill.  If it was as simple as dipping a wet board into melted wax,  a lot more people would be making their own foundation, myself included.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2013, 09:41:12 am
If it was as simple as dipping a wet board into melted wax,  a lot more people would be making their own foundation, myself included.
This is still old technology...
I am still thinking of using a non woven material that is soaked in wax like the window screen then build up the hex pattern with a printing method or punch out the centers and let the bees fill in between.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 09:54:59 am
What are my goals and what do i want to happen?

I want to bee self sufficient and don´t want to buy things.

Let the bees build by them selves with starter strips, if you want them to make a lot of cells for worker bees start them out with a young new 1st year queen, older queens will make more drone cells.

Use frames with wire to help stabilize the frames.

I want to have lots of worker bees and help them work quickly and rationally, give them frames of foundation that promote worker cells.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 10, 2013, 10:30:29 am
That the impressions are key is logical to me, I figured my method was way... to easy. How are impressions made w/other methods ? I assume there is a roller I could buy to press honeycomb design in wax ? Also saw foundation machine on other site that looks as if it could be approximated with honeycomb mold and foam insulation, making sheets like waffles ? In any case, I'll try a bunch of things and report results.



Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 10, 2013, 12:19:30 pm
That the impressions are key
Correct  :-D
Quote
How are impressions made w/other methods ? I assume there is a roller I could buy to press honeycomb design in wax ? Also saw foundation machine on other site that looks as if it could be approximated with honeycomb mold and foam insulation, making sheets like waffles ? In any case, I'll try a bunch of things and report results.

Yes, there are basically two methods.

1) take a sheet of wax and run it through a mill that pressed the cell pattern into the wax.   This requires much less wax as it produces a thinner foundation and it tends to be more consistent.  It is also the most costly as mills typically run over $1000.
2) Molds tend to be less exact and require 2x or more wax to make.   I have tried making molds out of concrete,  water putty, and silicone caulking.   Creating a mold can be challenging as it needs to hinge and if you look at natural comb (or foundation) you will notice that cells are offset from side to side.   I tried creating them with both 4.9 wax foundation and 4.9 plastic foundation.   It is difficult to get all the air bubbles out and wax foundation can easily be marred and/or damaged which is then reproduced on every sheet.   Also pouring liquid wax into the mold and squeezing the excess out is messy and can be difficult if wax temperature is too low.  Also getting the foundation to release both in making the mold and in manufacturing sheets can be challenging.   I have seen new silicone molds available for sale that look nice, but even with a good mold, you still have all the issues when pouring/squeezing/releasing.

Ultimately it became apparent to me that foundationless, although it has it's own issues,  is much easier if you want to get away from commercial foundation and is more natural for the bees.   Most of my experimenting was done when I was trying to regress to small cell.   Since then I have been able to go chemical free with large bees and have gone back to commercial foundation for it's ease
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 10, 2013, 12:48:26 pm
Fantastic ! Much oblige. I am the type, that will have to have a mill and my next stop is E-bay :) and, already trying to figure, how/how long to carve a couple rolling pins ? :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 02:49:10 pm
.

http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=rolling+foundations&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.bGE&biw=1366&bih=643&wrapid=tlif135784347905810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=HgzvUKuuHZL04QT7r4D4BQ#um=1&hl=fi&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=foundation+mill&oq=foundation+mill&gs_l=img.3...10692.14126.0.14553.15.11.0.4.4.0.221.1388.3j7j1.11.0...0.0...1c.1.1o9f188GGnE&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d0e5f8e357b6b756&biw=1366&bih=643 (http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=rolling+foundations&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.bGE&biw=1366&bih=643&wrapid=tlif135784347905810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=HgzvUKuuHZL04QT7r4D4BQ#um=1&hl=fi&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=foundation+mill&oq=foundation+mill&gs_l=img.3...10692.14126.0.14553.15.11.0.4.4.0.221.1388.3j7j1.11.0...0.0...1c.1.1o9f188GGnE&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d0e5f8e357b6b756&biw=1366&bih=643)

Production Process of Beeswax foundation embossing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GlNL-uZ7c#)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 10, 2013, 03:45:00 pm
Now how to make one ? :) Heard about plastic rollers available, didn't find. Ideas on getting impression on rollers ? C&C machine steel/aluminum ones ? wrap 12" rollers w/ plastic foundation ? do they have flexible type ?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2013, 03:55:34 pm
.
If you look from google, you may find much ideas and answers

,
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 10, 2013, 04:01:34 pm
wrap 12" rollers w/ plastic foundation ? do they have flexible type ?

Won't work,  you need a "negative" of the foundation
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2013, 04:20:01 pm
Now how to make one ? :) Heard about plastic rollers available, didn't find. Ideas on getting impression on rollers ? C&C machine steel/aluminum ones ? wrap 12" rollers w/ plastic foundation ? do they have flexible type ?

Two options you can try:
Use two sheet of plastic foundation with the thin sheet of wax in the middle then just run the sandwich between to flat surfaced rolls like a ringer washing machine.  If you have access to a CNC mill and can cut the impressions in two plates I know that will work.  You will have to register the two metal plates so the high and the low points mesh together.  This might be the hardest thing to do with the plastic foundation.  CNC Milling of aluminum plates should be far cheaper than the roll form.  The average bee keeper could make the nip roller machine.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 10, 2013, 04:37:40 pm
Use two sheet of plastic foundation with the thin sheet of wax in the middle then just run the sandwich between to flat surfaced rolls like a ringer washing machine. 

This won't work,  you will end up with bumps instead of cells

Quote
If you have access to a CNC mill and can cut the impressions in two plates I know that will work. 

No, you need to cut the cell walls into the plates.   Your mold needs to be the opposite of the foundation ie.  high spots for cell bottoms and cut outs for the start of the cell walls
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2013, 04:57:18 pm
Use two sheet of plastic foundation with the thin sheet of wax in the middle then just run the sandwich between to flat surfaced rolls like a ringer washing machine. 

This won't work,  you will end up with bumps instead of cells


Yes, you are correct.  I forgot about the cell walls.  The cell walls might make it tough to separate the aluminum plates with the walls going up into them but they could be machined.  Maybe a progressive die would work where you are embossing just a row or two at a time.

Finski, what do you think the orientals are using on the rolls as a release agent?  Soap and water?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 10, 2013, 05:00:49 pm
Wonder if:
-plain screen might work
-lots of small holes in dipped screen
-dipped 1/2" hardware cloth
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: edward on January 10, 2013, 05:48:22 pm
what do you think the orientals are using on the rolls as a release agent?  Soap and water?

The Swedish wax foundation makers buy there solutions from Germany, don't know whats in it though

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2013, 07:23:34 pm
Seems to me that you have to think outside the box if Drew is trying to make cell impressions in a sheet that is 4 FEET long by 18 inches.  (122cm x 46cm).  It’s going to be hard to fit something that big through any conventional machine. 

If the screen idea doesn’t work, why not just stack plastic pierco foundation into your titanic frames?  That’s what I do and it works fine.  It would be nice if it was one solid sheet of plastic from top to bottom, but life isn’t perfect.

If you want to make life complicated, maybe you take about 6 sheets of pierco plastic foundation and cover them with fiberglass resin (and fiberglass) to make the necessary “mold” for making foundation.  Once a giant mold is made, press in, or melt wax on the mold to make your foundation (one sided).  Then either try to press another mold on top of that to make cells on the other side or ‘glue’ two sheets of single sided cells together. 
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: little john on January 10, 2013, 08:33:11 pm
[ Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb.  When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core.   Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

Respectfully suggest that you read:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf)

a research study which reported that:

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 10, 2013, 08:52:55 pm
"In a world of darkness he bringith light ! " :)
Thanks bud

p.s. hand on my heart, if I had to do it, I was going to use glass  ;)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2013, 09:08:36 pm

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ

You would think that if this is true there is a down side somewhere.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 10, 2013, 09:27:44 pm
[ Bees do not see a flat sheet as the core of comb.  When bees build natural comb, there it no flat core.   Do you think if it was a easy as proving a flat sheet of wax that people would be spending $1000+ on foundation mills?

Respectfully suggest that you read:
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Low%20cost%20Foundation%20_21_.pdf)

a research study which reported that:

"Observations made during the study indicated a preference by the bees to use thin non-
embossed wax sheets to make new combs rather than thick non-embossed wax sheets or
embossed foundation."


LJ

OK,  but I can only go by my experience and I am still a little skeptical of their findings.  First of all they put two frames of un-embossed wax on either side of the brood nest.  Bees have a natural inclination to keep the brood nest together,  not split it up with two solid frames between it.  I would be a little less skeptical if they swapped frame placement around between the four colonies.  Say two with foundation first and then non-embossed.   

It is like taking a starving dog and putting chicken right next to him and beef 4 foot away and claiming dogs like chicken over beef because he ate the chicken first.

Secondly, I not impressed by the one picture they show.  Two non-embossed frames on each side of the brood nest of 4 hives means they had 16 non-embossed frames to choose from at that is the best?   Looks to me as if the bees built comb in the void and attached it to the wax sheet.  Sort of like you see in a cut out against a wall.  Especially if you look at the bottom left corner of the frame, sure looks like the comb protrudes out and that perhaps there is some bee passage between the comb and wax sheet.  Also I'm skeptical the way the comb just abruptly ends at the right side.  With foundation or foundationless, the comb will taper down to where they would be starting new comb.

I will remain skeptical until I see better examples.

Take a look at the 2nd video from the bottom JP & Emil Remove Mammoth Bee Hive 35' Up  and tell me there isn't a resemblance of the comb.
http://beevac.com/videos/ (http://beevac.com/videos/)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 12:08:49 am
Perhaps the key might not rest with embossing but include vibrations ? Communication between sides of individual combs @ formation ? Wax to thick=no good ?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 11, 2013, 10:43:13 am
>-have you come up against any size limitations in managing foundation-less comb ?

I have done it on Dadant Deeps but with a support in the center.  I've done it on deeps with no support.  Most of mine are currently on mediums.

> My hope is to facilitate management of combs I am finding in cutouts, (4'+)

How are you going to put a 4 foot peice of comb in a frame?

>-would you expect foundation to accelerate cell/comb construction ?

No.  Foundation does NOT accelearte comb concstruction.

>Tell me why they use foundation.

Because the spacing of the barriers in the hive force them to.  If you give them a choice they will build their own comb and ignore the foundation.  Also foundation is not flat.  It has angles in the bottom of the cells.

I see no reason to make your own foundation when no foundation works better than anything you will give them.  If you use foundation it will be contaminated with chemicals.  If you use foundation you will force them to build something other than what they really want for cell size.  If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 10:52:40 am
 very carefully :) B's and all ! :) Quickly, gently, and easily,(I hope), relative to the task, :) Stay tuned ! I am interested in your comparisons of comb growth rate by types. Even more so, should they happen to include, screen, and hardware cloth splashed w/ little beeswax, among them :)

p.s. would have been clearer for me to say, "Facilitate management of the same sized combs ...." but I stand by above :)
p.s.s Also interested to know what happens if you seal up the top of that OB hive :) and then : What happens if you quarter the height(thus quadruple surface area of ceiling). But that is for the other thread :)
P.s.s.s Robo - As will I :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2013, 12:41:40 pm
If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.

I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 11, 2013, 03:18:54 pm
I don’t doubt it either, but I can report this is not an absolute rule or bee keeping either.  I had a grow box full of half sized mating frames I wanted to get combed up for mating nucs.  A grow box is a box you fill with half frames and put over a full sized colony of bees. 

Half of those frames were waxed peirco foundation and half were homemade foundationless frames with a triangular starter bar at the top of the frame.  The frames was put into the grow box in alternating order.  F – FL – F – FL – F – FL – etc. 

The bees combed up every pierco mini frame before touching the foundationless frames.  I was surprised myself.  The bees can surprise you from time to time.  At other times I’ve had them absolutely refuse to build on the PF plastic frames.  Having adequate wax on your substrate can make a big difference. 
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 03:47:55 pm
BlueBee, interesting observations, I wonder:
- if the preference for, "F", was related to the angle of starter ?
- something else but I forgot now :) TBC
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 12, 2013, 06:08:52 am
When are we going to get to see a photo of this infamous titanic sized frame of yours?

It’s easy to post photos from a photobucket album by simply clicking the [img] tag and pasting that into a post.

We need to see this Frankenstein monster you're building!
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 08:20:43 am
photobucket ? :) ...... Kidding, I've heard of it @ least. Work on it today. Frames look good, several versions, can't wait to see what the B's make of 'em.  Oh yea, be interested to hear your reply to ? I am about to post on other thread ;)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Jim134 on January 13, 2013, 08:03:49 am
If you use foundation you will slow them down.  If you make your own foundation you will spend an inordinant amount of time making something they don't need.

I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?


 :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:

Acebird........

Are you still  :?
:deadhorse:


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 13, 2013, 08:38:30 am
I don't doubt that what you say is true but for someone like myself using foundation allows me to be more of a clutts.  It could just be me but I think other newbies might have that same trait.  I think newbies are in the hive more than they should so a stronger comb could be to their advantage, initially.  Foundation is not an advantage to the bees it is an advantage to maybe some beekeepers.

I totally agree, new beekeepers are completely overwhelmed by what they have gotten into and although using foundation isn't foolproof, I believe it is more forgiving.

Quote
I plan on trying some natural comb in the future.  Where do you feel the easiest frame placement is?  In the honey supers or the brood chamber?

The best place is in the brood nest between two combs of brood which will act as a limiting guide.  If you attempt to do it in a honey super,  there is a high percentage chance that they will either overdraw existing comb into the space by making 2" or thinker comb,  or build new wide comb if you give them pace to do so (multiple empty foundationless frames).    They will build brood cells just so deep,  but will build honey cells much deeper (less work/wax to make a frame of really deep cells vs. 2 frames of "normal" depth cells)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 13, 2013, 10:01:42 am
That makes perfect sense Robo but now when is it safe here in Upstate to put empty frames in the brood nest?  Is there a risk of chilling brood doing this in early spring?

I have put blown out frames in the supers and got away with it.  Was I just lucky?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Robo on January 13, 2013, 03:23:02 pm
Ya, you need to be careful about chilling brood by breaking up the brood nest.  However,  foundationless is much more forgiving than foundation.  Foundation creates a physical block between the two combs, where as foundation just leaves a gap that the bees can easily span.   As long as the population of bees is large enough to occupy the gap between the two brood frames,  you will be OK.  Just remember,  the weather has to be warm enough for them to fly and forage before they will build comb anyway,  so another reason not to rush.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 13, 2013, 03:46:17 pm
Yeah, but they forage like crazy during the day not at night when it gets ding dang cold in the spring.

To me this is a tricky one because the hive is expanding so there is going to be brood in the combs and the bees will not leave the brood to huddle into an empty space even if there were a lot of bees that could fill it.  Unless there are lots and lots of bees.  A real judgement call.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: edward on January 13, 2013, 04:34:26 pm
You also need young bees to make comb, beecause it is those bees that sweat wax, no young bees, no wax  ;)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: saperica on January 14, 2013, 05:52:03 am
i have found this site http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm (http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm) whit detail instruction for DIY wax foundation press.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 14, 2013, 09:23:27 am
>but now when is it safe here in Upstate to put empty frames in the brood nest?  Is there a risk of chilling brood doing this in early spring?

If the nights are still frosty and the population of bees is not dense, then it's too early.  If there are lots of bees and the nights are no longer frosty a frame in the brood nest is not an issue.  If the bees can quickly fill the space with festtoning bees they can handle it.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 14, 2013, 10:38:19 am
Saperica,
 Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 14, 2013, 12:53:26 pm
Quote
i have found this site http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm (http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm) whit detail instruction for DIY wax foundation press.
I see all kinds of problems with this method.  First of all silicone molds require a vacuum to pull out the bubbles you get from mixing the compounds.  I predict it will take several attempts to make this mold and I don't give it a high success rate.  Keeping the wax as a constant thickness with such a crude mold will be a trick.  And without a vacuum again it is likely you will have entrapped air in the wax.  Good luck
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Acebird on January 14, 2013, 12:56:50 pm
If the bees can quickly fill the space with festtoning bees they can handle it.


Thanks Michael
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BGhoney on January 15, 2013, 12:42:08 am
Be careful with bug screen some of it is treated with insecticide.  My aunt had several koi  in her pond die  from using window screen. it took several months to figure out what caused it. she lost several koi in her farm ponds . You could maybe soak it for several days to remove any possible treatment.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Jim134 on January 15, 2013, 06:53:10 am
Quote
i have found this site http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm (http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2006/february/beeswaxmould.htm) whit detail instruction for DIY wax foundation press.
I see all kinds of problems with this method.  First of all silicone molds require a vacuum to pull out the bubbles you get from mixing the compounds.  I predict it will take several attempts to make this mold and I don't give it a high success rate.  Keeping the wax as a constant thickness with such a crude mold will be a trick.  And without a vacuum again it is likely you will have entrapped air in the wax.  Good luck

 
Done that been their I did this in North Africa in 1983 work will


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on January 15, 2013, 12:50:46 pm
I have tried only aluminum screen as of yet.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: BlueBee on January 15, 2013, 06:11:53 pm
I wonder if the bees will build better comb above or below a themocline?
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 16, 2013, 10:23:35 am
Wax making and working requires a lot of heat.  Bees always build comb quicker when it's hot, all other things being equal, and if the outside temps are not hot they will have to generate the heat themselves.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2013, 10:59:57 am
I wonder if the bees will build better comb above or below a themocline?

Bees make combs more when they need them for brood or for honey. They never do them because it is hot.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 16, 2013, 12:48:01 pm
>Bees make combs more when they need them for brood or for honey. They never do them because it is hot.

Yes.  But they can make it faster when there is heat and, all other things being equal (such as the need for comb) the difference is still dramatic.
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: edward on January 16, 2013, 07:17:49 pm
When I want my smaller hives to build wax I give them a hand by closing up the ventilation so they don't have to work as hard to keep the hive warm.

You need lots of young bees to make wax .

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: saperica on January 18, 2013, 04:55:14 am
for avoiding problems whit sticking on silicone mould use a german Wabenlos paste, disolve 2g in one liter of water.
http://www.mojepcele.host56.com/web_images/vosak_wabelos-pasta-za-izljevanje-voska.gif (http://www.mojepcele.host56.com/web_images/vosak_wabelos-pasta-za-izljevanje-voska.gif)
here is picture.
if you dont use compresed air is your answer. link bellow.
Pčelarstvo Damir Tafra - Izrada satnih osnova (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9gJoCo9fk#ws)


and on following link is the answer how to sterilise wax.

stampo fogli cera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH4RajBJ9AU#ws)
Title: Re: Homemade foundation ?
Post by: duck on January 19, 2013, 09:10:47 pm

Because a beekeepers put foundations in there. There is 150 years experience that it is a fine job. Bees do not need them, but beekeepers do.
Bees need only a dark cavity where to build their nest

where would we be if noone ever tried plastic foundations?? I for one would be dreading assembling the next order of frames and foundations.  Without experimentation there is no improvement.  To say that beekeeping has evolved to perfection  I think its a good idea.  however, id use the biggest mesh like 1/2" like a welded screen..  I have frames with starter strips that had extra wire stapled on. from top to bottom and side to side. not embedded.  they will fill it all in and embed the wire.  I have seen them build flat on plywood sheating on alot of cutouts.

I like the plastic, and just feed them heavy when you put it in to make em draw it.