Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: HBW1412 on February 08, 2011, 07:40:42 pm
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I have noticed that many of you speak about getting your hives inspected by a certified state apiarist.
Why do you have this done?
Is there a law that states that I must have my hives inspected in order to legally own them?
Does the legislation recently passed that deals with "food safety" have any provisions requiring bee keepers to allow a representative of the state on their private property to inspect hives?
Are there any other concerns I should consider?
This subject was brought to my attention today by a few local farmers that are having to deal with this sort of intrusion by our government. I am now concerned that the small, privately owned apiary that I am building my be illegal. I live in the country far away from the cities and towns and my nearest neighbor is close to 2 miles away. There is nothing where I live except big farms. Could I be getting into something that would put me and my apiary under the same sort of scrutiny as the farmers in my area?
If I learn that I will be forced to submit to an inspection by a government official I will either stop building my apiary and have nothing to do with bees or I'll do everything I can to hide my hives and simply keep my mouth shut. I have had this concern in the back of my mind for some time now, but after talking to these farmers I feel that I must ask these questions.
I have not been able to find any specific laws and the posts on beemaster.com have mainly referred to local laws dealing with hive location within city limits or labeling requirements that the FDA requires. These laws are not what I'm referring too. I'm talking about the micromanagement, overstepping, unconstitutional laws that are now being either proposed or passed.
Thank you for your input and if you feel that I am looking at this entirely wrong, please let me know why. Perhaps you'll change my mind.
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Every state is a little different. Some just want you to register your hives. Some want an inspection on all hives to keep diseases at bay. Some only do inspections if you are a breeder or bee producer. Some do nothing. I am not sure what your state wants. May need to look into it.
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You got nothing to worry about. http://www.vdacs.virginia.gov/plant&pest/apiary.shtml (http://www.vdacs.virginia.gov/plant&pest/apiary.shtml)
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Pic any government regulatory organization and you will find that they are under paid and over worked. Did I say that? Now I didn’t include teachers and the DMV. :-D There isn’t the time or the resources to police the small guy. They barely have enough resources to police the big guy which IMO they must. If you go asking if you should be scrutinized then you will get an instant affirmative. The government should protect the masses and as long as you remain a hobbyist you are minimal risk to the general public. But if you ask, then by all means you should be regulated because you have some uncertainty.
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Thank you AllenF for directing me to that website. I will be looking into the Mid-Atlantic States Agreement which specifies inspection requirements for bee diseases and pests. The site you linked to didn't go into detail on that, but the site was helpful.
To Acebird - I'm going to let your post speak for itself. Trust me, it does speak volumes. I believe some of your stated views are held by a small minority of bee keepers and Americans in general, but I would like to point out that I have no uncertainty regarding this subject. To be clear, there is no way I want an inspector near my hives.
I do not want this to be a political post. I am merely concerned with what our government is up to concerning bees.
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Check your state laws and your state agriculture department.
Generally, nobody pays much attention to hobbyists. Also, as Acebird said, most of the inspectors are overworked and underpaid--they don't have a lot to gain from shutting down hobbyists, who offer no economic threat to the big boys nor any power-thrill like they'd get from shutting down one of the big boys.
My own state ag department has an inspector who comes round once a year to check on my poultry; his other tasks include dog catching, stocking fishponds in the state parks, deer tagging and hunter licensing for the county. He's a busy guy! He knocks on the door, we chat a bit about how this year's hatches went, the weather, gardening, etc. He pats the dogs and gives me a slip of paper that says he stopped by and my birds are fine. This past visit, I said, "I got bees, do you want to see them? They're down in the orchard." He rolled his eyes and said, "No way, I have enough to do without worrying about bees too. I'm sure they're fine." And that was that.
Near as I can tell, working with various regulatory agencies in my career, they mostly only bother you if there's been a complaint of something pretty bad happening. And it really does have to be very bad, like many people getting severely injured. If you're doing fine, fairly competent, no complaints, nobody really cares what you do--they have bigger fish to fry. You could be running around on a unicycle wearing a clown hat and singing Waltzing Matilda--the people who care deeply about such things, who will really make your life very hard to the best of their abilities, are NOT regulators. They are busybody neighbors with nothing better to do than watch teevee and fuss about who is doing what with whom, who never worked a day in their lives and instead spend their time carping about who brought what to the ladies auxiliary potluck, sort of thing. That's who you have to watch out for, as a hobbyist. Just my experience through many, many actual inspections, audits and investigations from many feared three-letter federal regulators. :-P
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You got nothing to worry about. http://www.vdacs.virginia.gov/plant&pest/apiary.shtml
It appears that apiaries are required to be registered, as the State Inspector has the right to inspect any apiary.
Here in Ohio, I am required to register my apiaries. However, I can sign a no consent form which means the state knows I have a beeyard, but the county inspector is not allowed to touch my hives without a search warrant.
If I sell bees or queens, I am required to have a special inspection done on my bees. I don't think you can sign a no consent form for this. However, many people never get this inspection and they don't get in trouble for it.
My State Inspector is a complete idiot. When the last State Inspector retired, there was uncertainty if that position would even be filled. The current State Inspector worked in the plant pathology lab at OSU, and their hours were being cut. I think it was the good ole boy system that gave them a part time job as a State Inspector. Every other day they work a different job (meaning nothing gets done at either job, but they get a full paycheck) - plant pathology lab one day, and State Inspector the next day.
The State Inspector spoke at our local beeclub meeting last summer. She had no clue what she was talking about. She was telling us to use terramycin for varroa mites, and she said that she reports ALL colony losses as CCD, to get better numbers trying to get funding for research.
My county inspector does not have a computer. The ONLY method he uses for checking for varroa mites is to remove some drone brood and see if he can find any mites. He says he has only found one case of AFB in his years of inspecting, and he wasn't sure if it was AFB or not so he had to get samples tested at Beltsville to be sure. His inspections consist of looking to see if you have a laying queen, and to see if he sees many mites in sealed drone brood.
The last time I let him check some of my hives, it took him 3 hours to inspect 15 hives. He also told me he is paid by the county commissioners. He just bills them for his hours, and he gets paid $18 an hour - which probably explains why it takes him so long.
There are several counties in my state with no inspector. It seems funds for inspecting are minimal. Many beekeepers do not register apiaries, and the state does not have the money to be a nuisance to beekeepers. It works pretty well this way.
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I have some difficulty with your problem of letting a bee inspector help you out by checking for disease and pests. State bee inspectors are just that; STATE BEE INSPECTORS. You might check Virginia laws but here in FL we get inspected once a year and they're checking for AFB mostly, but will also look for Varroa and SHB. If they find AFB they mark the hive and you have to burn it, nothing more than most of us do on our own. If they find large numbers of Varroa or SHB they tell you about it and how to control it. They don't care about zoning regs or where your bees are located and don't handle any nuisance complaints. They simply inspect for disease and pests.
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i do understand your concern. don't want them on my place either. looks like you are ok in your state, but it's a good reminder for all to be aware of what their state requires. while it is true that they will probably not hunt you down, if someone complains, it's nice to know what the requirements are.
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Near as I can tell, working with various regulatory agencies in my career, they mostly only bother you if there's been a complaint of something pretty bad happening.
Trust me it is no different with the big guys. If you could package rat poop in Viagra and not get any complaints you could continue putting the poop in. The customer is the red flag and once that is raised all hell breaks loose. The system is reaction after the fact. Thinking about systems of control that is not such a bad system. What is bad is the cover up. As far as I am concerned, that should be a life sentence.
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Countryboy, you are sorta hitting the nail on the head as to why I don't want any inspectors near my hives. Like most government officials I believe they are completely inept when it comes to performing their duties. You are correct in saying that Virginia law says the state Inspector has the right to inspect any apiary and reason would suggest that one needs to register their apiary. The problem is just how unreasonable government is. If their is no law that says I MUST register it, then I will not. It's ashamed that so many things that have been done for thousands of years like bee keeping are now criminal if you don't get permission from the government. I DO NOT believe this is the American way. Having to ask permission from my government to keep a few bees just doesn't sit right with me. AM I alone in this?
fish_stix - It's the "nothing more than most of us do on our own" part of your post that I'm getting at. I don't need a so-called, professional state bee inspector to tell me how to do what I already know how to do. You might argue that for someone knew to beekeeping such as myself may not know what to do about pests or diseases, but that is what sites like beemaster.com are for. Now that we live in the age of the internet and have access to nearly endless information, not knowing what to do should be a thing of the past. IF someone doesn't know what to do and/or doesn't take appropriate steps to treat any pests or diseases their bees have then they will not have bees very long anyway which would make the state bee inspector unnecessary.
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Having to ask permission from my government to keep a few bees just doesn't sit right with me. Am I alone in this?
Of course you are not. Just don't get all bound up about it. The commercial beek is more apt to infect your hive than you infect theirs unless it is intentional. Have a glass of wine and chill. Enjoy the hobby.
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Ill be honest im not much for goverment myself. I do however think that inspections are good for the following reasons. Its important that the bees be inspected especially for the inexperienced beekeeper. Inspections are important because if your bees do have a problem and its not detected the disease can be spread to other bee hives killing colonies which none of us needs. You have to remember that drones which are male bees are excepted in all colonies besides their own, they mate with the virgin queens. As a result the drones can carry varroa and other diseases to other hives .
Chris
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backyard warrior - First, thank you for responding to my post. I do see your point of view and it does have merit and I have considered that myself. However, you and other responsible bee keepers would have already taken the appropriate steps to treat for pests and disease from drones coming from hives that were not inspected. If you have hives within the same range as a hive that hasn't been inspected that is a host to varroa mites and has gone untreated then the proximity to your hives would suggest that varroa was already present in your area, but you had taken steps to protect your bees. From what I understand, varroa is in nearly every hive and those hives that do survive are either varroa resistant or have had some sort of treatment.
I'd also like to point out one more thing. Bee inspectors only seem to inspect apiaries once or maybe twice a year. Couldn't a disease or pest rear it's ugly head and do what damage it's going to do between these inspections? I guess you could say the inspector could catch as many problem hives as possible, but I have a question for those of you that have to endure these inspections. How many times have you had a state apiary inspector point out a pest or disease in your bees that you didn't already know about? If you are a responsible bee keeper than I would like to think this answer is none.
I don't aim to anger anyone with this post, but this is a serious issue and it stems from a larger problem in our country. Our government has run amuck with rules and regulations and I must say that sitting back with a glass of wine and chilling while government takes away freedoms regardless of how insignificant they may seem is a major part of the problems we face.
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We don't have to register our hives as hobbyists in WI, but we can, if we want to have the state inspector come out and inspect our hives . . . for free.
I love the service. We have a great local inspector who is a hobbyist himself, but obviously very experienced and well known in the bee community around here and with the bee distributors. He does a great inspection and I learn a ton - we have some different opinions on management, but doesn't everybody and I still learn a lot from him and he can't make me manage my hives in a particular manner, just offer suggestions. Plus I get the low down on what is going on in my area with other beeks and he looks for and tracks disease, plus he notes hive losses over winter (or otherwise) and this is great data if the state decides to track it.
He is much more knowledgeable about diseases than I am and does good evaluation for this, teaching me along the way.
I don't see a down side. (did I mention it was free :-D and he comes each spring and fall :lol:)
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And in answer to your last comment regarding the notion that if I was a responsible beekeeper then I would notice all disease . . . .
Going into my 5th year and there is still so much I don't know. I have never seen foulbrood and wouldn't know it if I saw it (I might have suspicions, but I wouldn't know for sure).
I don't know how to determine if tracheal mites are a problem and the beauty of our inspector is that if he suspected either he would direct samples to state lab.
I didn't know what sacbrood looked like and he found samples in my hive to show me (wasn't a big problem, but I consider myself "responsible" but I didn't know how to look for sacbrood).
I believe that if he suspected CCD in my hives that he would be the one who could document it and get me some funds from some CCD relief process within the state.
Again, I don't feel it is instrusive and I don't see a down side. It is the government, but one of the few times I get a service from the government that does house calls. :-D
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We don't have to register hives here, but then the spray regulations don't cover the bees either.
All of our State Apiarists have been top notch bee people from the beginning.
The latest one had bees when he was 12.
We didn't have an Apiarist for a few years due to some stupid cost cutting. But we still had inspecters, 3 for the entire state.
All the ones I've met are bee people not pencil pushers.
They are looking for AFB and mites, and a lot of territory to cover, but will talk with you, show you how they check-drone larva & ether roll.
The State Apiarist and the inspectors will attend the little club meetings, if invited, answer questions, give updates etc., at night on their own time.
I'd just as soon have the bee inspector, county health inspector, county sheriff already know me-in a good way-before some busybody spouts off a bunch of crap.
Most likely they'll handle it on their own and never bother me.
Now if you're concerned about that 'green manure crop' then I guess you have something to be concerned about them G-men.
I like my solitude and freedom as much as the next one.
And I like being free of hog cholrea, typhoid, small pox, whouping cough, polio, hoof & mouth, rabies and more than I can count.
Do I think the Patriot Act will keep me safe? Nope
Do I need the sheriff to keep me safe? Nope
Do I think I'm safe? Yep
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Maybe you should move a bit south to NC. We have a group of inspectors that come when you call. Every month, every week, once a year, or never. We don't register apiaries. We call the inspector when needed or wanted. They not only inspect, but spend time making suggestions, teaching, etc.
If you sell more than 10 hives per year as a commercial business, then you have to buy a permit and be inspected annually.
I don't think you can get a wrong answer from one of our inspectors. If they aren't sure, they will find out for you and get back to you with the correct answer.
PS. They are all extremely friendly, the inspections are free for hobbyist, they will come to local bee clubs and speak for free. They travel all over the world learning about different aspects of beekeeping.
In other words, we have the best of all worlds with our rules and inspectors.
On second thought, if you are less then 10 years experienced, maybe you should stay there. We don't want or need beeks that don't recognize when they have communicable diseases and won't ask for help.
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tandemrx - You have made some excellent points and have said nothing that I can disagree with. Thank you for responding. You've definitely given me food for thought. I will contact my county extension office and see what is involved in an inspection here in Virginia. I am new to beekeeping and certainly can use all the advice I can get. I still don't like the idea of some know it all coming to check my bees. It sounds like you are lucky by having an inspector that knows what they are doing. Countryboy in an earlier post didn't have your luck. I may ask around and see what other bee keepers in my area think about the inspector here. If the local inspector is an idiot I will NOT allow them near my hive. I'd rather get to know someone in my area that has experience with bees and have them, a friend, come over to take a look instead of a government employee.
WPG - I have nothing to hide. I simply believe government has overstepped its bounds by regulating everything in our lives. It seems you like the bee inspector and I have no problem with that. If you want to - REQUEST - an inspector to come out and give you any tips and check your hives that's fine, but being told I MUST allow an inspection is what gets to me.
iddee - You were doing so well until you had a second thought. Don't worry though, I will not be moving to North Carolina. Why would I want to move to a state that has a government that shows so little regard for its citizens that it FORCES them to get their permission to sell a few bees out of their back yard?
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there is a big difference between asking for help and being forced to allow inspectors on your place. for me, it's not about the inspections, but a matter of principle.
my place. i decide who comes and goes.
there is one exception to my distaste for registration/inspection. that would be if they were apt to be spraying and would warn me, providing my hives were registered. in that case, it might be worth it. no spraying here, so no need.
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A few hives from my backyard, no permit nor inspection needed. I can sell 10 hives each year with no problem. If someone is selling 600 nucs and 900 packages within my state yearly, I would like to know they had been inspected and disease free before they were spread statewide.
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kathyp - You make an excellent point in favor of being registered so you could be informed of pending known danger to your bees like spraying. That is something to consider. I just wonder how efficient a government agency would be at informing me when you take into consideration what all they would have to keep up with. There is no spraying in my area either, but I can see how that would be a concern for some.
I don't want everyone to think that I am completely against these types of programs either. Here on my farm, which is a fairly decent acreage, I wholeheartedly take part in and fully support Virginia Techs study on the gypsy moth and its impact on our forestlands. I'm not a hardnose at all about this sort of thing. I see it as something I can do to help save our trees. Here's the funny part though....
The person that comes down to check the traps is always different and doesn't know where the traps are so I have to show them. They didn't know how to identify the different types of trees with accuracy. I had to show them the proper trees to hang the traps in. Many times they haven't even shown up on their scheduled days. I call to see if they have rescheduled because I always escort anyone onto my property.
This is what I am referring to when I say government is inept at performing its duties.
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>>>>This is what I am referring to when I say government is inept at performing its duties.<<<<
Now see there, we can agree on something. :-D
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In Florida, the inspector is on the look-out to see if the bees in a hive have been Africanized, and can demand re-queening or other corrective measures if the bees show signs of it.
That won't stop the spread of the African bee, but it can prevent other problems. And I don't think that liability insurance (either on a apiary business or private home with a few hives) will pay damages if a person was keeping bees in violation of the law and someone gets hurt. Beeks in the city or suburbs need to be mindful that most people have zero understanding of bees, while many have an irrational fear of bees. If people know that you keep bees, they might blame you for any and all stings they get, even when they are the fool to blame, even when it was not a bee that stung them. Being able to show that your hives were inspected each year and that you were mindful of the law is important for urban/suburban beeks and for those who engage in beekeeping as a business - like it or not, the bar is higher for people in those groups.
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Vetch - That's exactly why I'm a strong supporter of tort reform.
I wonder how all those Africans have managed to crawl into the heart of an "Africanized" colony and take the honey from them with no bee suit for thousands of years? I've never figured that one out. I'm not yet convinced that the Africanized bee is anything more than a hyped-up thing for Universities to be able to squeeze more funding out of us taxpayers for "research", but that's another post. :-X
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you may want to join us in the coffee house one of these days. :-D
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kathyp - I have to admit that I didn't know what you were referring too when I read your post. I'm glad I searched for it though. The coffee house looks to have some very interesting conversations going on. Thanks.
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... fully support Virginia Techs study on the gypsy moth and its impact on our forestlands.
This is what I am referring to when I say government is inept at performing its duties.
The state ext. has sent me those traps and I put them out myself etc.
Sounds like a bunch of students trying to get extra credit, not government hacks.
Our Bee Law used to require the sprayer notify the beek at least 36 hrs ahead. (Lucky to get 12). The out of state guys had a hard time with it so we just changed it a couple years ago.
Now the sprayer can't spray within 1 mile of a registered hive between the hours of 8am and 6pm.
The state keeps the list and registers the sprayer also.
That's it.
A web site, updated by 1st of each month.
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The 1st State Bee Inspector I ever met hated kids and got me stung 379 times.
The last 1 I saw made the comment he didn't like the way I was keeping my bees. I told him he might not lilke it but the bees seemed to as I was getting about 300 lbs of honey per hive at the time.
The the State decided to axe unnessary positions, we haven't had an active bee inspector in Washington in over 20 years.
The registration and inspection laws were not changed when the state did away with the inspectors. Here in Washington the law states that every beekeeper or apiarist must register each and every hive they have on 1 April of each year and their exact locatiion for the purposes of inspection. Inpsectors can go onto any property that has a bee hive for the purposes of inspecting the health of the hive and determining if AFB is present. Hives found to be infected with AFB must be destroyed by burning of all components within 3 days of notice of contamination by the inspector or the state inspector can destroy every hive in any give apiary, at the owners expense, to insure that AFB is not transmitted to other bee hives.
We haven't had any noticable outbreak of AFB in Washington since the late 1960's which is probably the main reason we no longer fund inspectors.
AFB is why Bee are required to be registered for inspection and why Lanstroth hives were legislated by the the many states. Prior to WWII there used to be plagues of AFB that would decimate as much as 90% of the bees in a given state or area. Those AFB Plagues make CCD look like a Sunday walk in the park.
The last bit was what my mentor had to say about why bee inspections when explaining the process to me over 50 years ago. He lived through much of it, having started beekeeping in the 1890"s. One of the reasons he moved to Western Washington was because it was one of the areas in the USA with the fewest AFB outbreacks and he could earn a living as a barber just about anywhere.
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Nebraska scrapped it's registration and inspection laws about a decade ago. But I PAY to have them inspected so I can sell queens and they have a very knowledgeable and capable guy come do that. I was a bit concerned the first time and made sure i was there as I have a lot of foundationless frames which you have to not turn sideways if they are being newly drawn, and several top bar hives, with the same issues plus that they aren't very standard, but he did fine after I explained all of that, and he has inspected without me there every year since, which is fine. The previous inspector was also a very knowledgeable and helpful guy. But I have heard other stories from others.
Interestingly enough, now that inspections aren't required and I have to pay for them I have mine inspected every year. Before that I never had them inspected and never registered them because I was afraid they would force me to treat them, which I was not going to do...
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Michael Bush - You now CHOOSE to have an inspector come out and I completely support someones right to do so. I have the same concern you did in regards to being forced to treat with chemicals and/or medications. If it turns out that I can CHOOSE to have an inspection with nothing more than suggestions on how to do things differently I may pay someone myself to inspect my hives. If the government says I MUST be inspected then I want nothing to do them. I don't deal well with tyrants.
Brian D. Bray - When your state finds AFB and then says you have to burn that hive I feel that is already going beyond their Constitutional authority. They should ONLY inform you of their findings and what the customary solution is, which would be to burn the hive. You would then already know what to do on your own, there would be no need for a threatening law. However, when the government says your AFB infested hive MUST be burned and if you don't do as we say then we'll come in and burn every hive you have, everyone reading this should have a SERIOUS problem with that. Then on top of that tyrannical law, you are forced to pay for it.
WE THE PEOPLE have given away our power to the government far to freely for far too long.
Lets say you have 200 hives. What if an inspector found AFB in only 3 hives in your apiary and on your way to burn those three hives you have a heart attack? You would go into the hospital for several days. When you got back home you go to check those three hives and burn them, but when you come around the corner you are devastated because the STATE came in and burned the other 197 healthy hives.
If you are lucky enough not to have another heart attack and die right then and there you'd probably go call the police. Of course the police would be aware of the burning because they would have been the ones to carry it out. They tell you they were following the law and you could do nothing about it. Now how would that feel? All because of a FORCED inspection.
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Vetch - That's exactly why I'm a strong supporter of tort reform.
Problems are 1) tort reform is not here, and 2) Regardless of tort reform, if a person doesn't comply with the regulations, they are going to appear bad. Judges are not beeks, the jury probably know nothing about bees. There is no way to use tort reform to legislate protection against every possible way that the process could go wrong, one can't legislate common sense into a jury. We are stuck with the idea of a jury, and that creature might be reasonable or might be idiotic. Beekeepers need to conduct themselves in a way that is responsible and proper and appears to be responsible and proper. If there is any question of public safety, skipping required inspections on principal won't look good, regardless of whether it is relevant or not.
I'm not yet convinced that the Africanized bee is anything more than a hyped-up thing for Universities to be able to squeeze more funding out of us taxpayers for "research", but that's another post. :-X
Well, everything I have read about their spread through central America indicates that they are more aggressive, have a larger alarm zone and more guard bees than traditional strains of bees. Also, more likely to swarm, abscond, or do other things to frustrate their tender. They are headed your way, you can be the judge when they get there. Most people think they will move as far north as the Chesapeake region, I suspect if they hybridize, they will go even farther (though I hope not).
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Lets say you have 200 hives. What if an inspector found AFB in only 3 hives in your apiary and on your way to burn those three hives you have a heart attack? You would go into the hospital for several days. When you got back home you go to check those three hives and burn them, but when you come around the corner you are devastated because the STATE came in and burned the other 197 healthy hives.
If you are lucky enough not to have another heart attack and die right then and there you'd probably go call the police. Of course the police would be aware of the burning because they would have been the ones to carry it out. They tell you they were following the law and you could do nothing about it. Now how would that feel? All because of a FORCED inspection.
Geez...
What if while on your way to get a match to burn your AFB hives you tripped over your dog and banged your head and then wrecked on the way to the E.R and the cop that showed up had just burned some more hives and and and..
I think your getting a little over zealous on the ant-government tirade. If you dont want to register then don't. I don't think anyone will execute a search warrant on your property to force you to do so. You can 'what if' anything to death and it will not solve anything.
I registered mine voluntarily. In doing that, I am supposed to be notified of an AFB occurrence in my area as well as any potential spraying. If they notify me, great if not then oh well. Nothing ever works perfectly and I wouldn't expect any operation that takes the lowest bid on everything that they do, to be either. But if you ever find that tax free, easy go lucky government called Utopia, let me know.
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I also register my hives voluntarly. The state inspector in our area is a very nice and knowlegeable bee guy. His purpose is not to condem our hives but to protect all the hives in TN. If he sees something wrong then some kinda action should be taken. Last year AFB was found in a location in his area and some hives had to be burned but the action was taken to protect other hives from contamination. :roll:
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I have noticed that many of you speak about getting your hives inspected by a certified state apiarist.
Why do you have this done?
Is there a law that states that I must have my hives inspected in order to legally own them?
It's the law in Florida, yearly inspections. Checking for mites and mainly to prevent the spread of AFB. If they find it, they will burn your hives on-site.
Good thing is, those inspectors are on your side. Always a pleasant experience and most of them are a plethora of knowledge. My ONLY gripe is, the 'state' seems to push chemical treatments and feeding.
Here (http://www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/plantinsp/apiary/ap-fees.html) is some reading on the Florida requirements.
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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Some of you may mock my "what if" scenario concerning the forced burning of hives and our freedoms being trampled upon. You would be correct in saying that this situation has probably never occurred, but there are examples of big government telling us little people what's good for us.
An example of this would be the man in Atlanta, Georgia that was fined $5000.00 for GIVING his neighbors vegetables from his organic vegetable garden. This happened last year. His garden wasn't inspected. No one got sick. His neighbors were grateful. The government says he wasn't "zoned" for such a thing. Are you kidding me? This is the nanny state I am referring too. What have we allowed our country to become?
If the government is allowed to prevent an outstanding citizen from growing food for others to help cut down on their food costs they can come up with rules and regulations that would destroy bee keeping as we know it. Give an inch and they will take a thousand miles. So, go ahead. Mock my "what if" scenario. It is coming and the signs are all around us.
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Lets say you have 200 hives. What if an inspector found AFB in only 3 hives in your apiary and on your way to burn those three hives you have a heart attack? You would go into the hospital for several days. When you got back home you go to check those three hives and burn them, but when you come around the corner you are devastated because the STATE came in and burned the other 197 healthy hives.
If you are lucky enough not to have another heart attack and die right then and there you'd probably go call the police. Of course the police would be aware of the burning because they would have been the ones to carry it out. They tell you they were following the law and you could do nothing about it. Now how would that feel? All because of a FORCED inspection.
Geez...
What if while on your way to get a match to burn your AFB hives you tripped over your dog and banged your head and then wrecked on the way to the E.R and the cop that showed up had just burned some more hives and and and..
I think your getting a little over zealous on the ant-government tirade. If you dont want to register then don't. I don't think anyone will execute a search warrant on your property to force you to do so. You can 'what if' anything to death and it will not solve anything.
I registered mine voluntarily. In doing that, I am supposed to be notified of an AFB occurrence in my area as well as any potential spraying. If they notify me, great if not then oh well. Nothing ever works perfectly and I wouldn't expect any operation that takes the lowest bid on everything that they do, to be either. But if you ever find that tax free, easy go lucky government called Utopia, let me know.
Agreed. We get it, you don't like the government. You now know that they're not forcing you to be inspected. NEXT.
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An example of this would be the man in Atlanta, Georgia that was fined $5000.00 for GIVING his neighbors vegetables from his organic vegetable garden.
Show me a link. I want to know the "rest of the story". I'll never believe that is all there was to the case.
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http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/15/cabbagegate-ga-man-fined-5k-for-home-garden/ (http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/15/cabbagegate-ga-man-fined-5k-for-home-garden/)
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Agreed. We get it, you don't like the government. You now know that they're not forcing you to be inspected. NEXT.
if you don't like the topic, may i suggest you not read it?
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Thanks, Kathy.
I also see that he is still fighting it. They have rezoned his land so he can continue to raise his garden. Now he just has to get the fines dropped. I think in the end, he will get that done.
Hopefully, when he does, he can sue for his attorney fees to be paid by the county.
I do have to agree, that is a case of government gone bad.
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my state requires inspections on all queen and bee producers.
i knew i wanted to sell nucs this year so i requested inspection and got one the next week.
the guy was nice,knowledgable, and efficent with the handling of my hives.
he commented on the various hives and all of it was good.
at the end of the inspection ( which is only for foul brood they say ) the inspector said all was great and my hives looked better and were in better shape than his were.
i thanked the man and went back home knowing i am free of most all nasty critters that they would look for.
he did point out 2 bees that showed deformed wing problems and attributed that to mites but thats all he found.
now i can sell queens and nucs openly without being in violation of any laws.
ill take that trade.
its no worse than the regulations that i work under in my real job as a nurse.
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I am a big fan of limited government. I believe what you do on your own land, provided it is voluntary and not fraudulent is fine. In essence, do what you want as long as you don't infringe the rights of others.
Of all government regulations, I can see the point of bee inspectors a little better than most, but I still have my reservations. Your bees don't respect property boundaries or property rights, so I can kind of see their point. However, regulations do nothing about feral hives which results in the laws being inconsistently applied to only your hives.
Bee inspections were originally started due to AFB outbreaks after beekeepers started using movable frame hives. When folks were using gums and skeps, foulbrood was a rare and minor nuisance.
Back in the 1940's, there were twice as many hives in the US as there are now. Most hives back then were managed by let-alone hobbyists. Diseases could quickly get out of control because people were not paying attention to their hives. Now, if you don't exercise a more involved from of management, your bees will die off from something else usually. If there is a problem, people seem to notice it quicker now, and can get it nipped in the bud.
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Here in Tennessee, we're required by law to register our hives. I'm not a fan of government either, but have no problem with the bee inspectors. I have never run across an inspector in this state that is not 100% qualified for the job. I've had bees here since 1995 and have never had a "mandatory" inspection of one of my apiaries, though I have called the state to look at a few things I had questions with. As much as I dislike "big government" and regulation of what I consider a hobby, I came to terms with the fact that my state is neither "big government" nor intent on making my life difficult with lots of time-wasting nonsense and red tape. I think Virginia would probably be similar. Here in the south, there are lots of people like us who would rather just be left alone and consider our private property just that... PRIVATE. My state understands that and has afforded me all of the peace and privacy I desire.
I can't think of any state that has the goal of regulating the hobbyist. Their goals are to track the movement of pests such as SHB and imported fire ants, as well as prevent the spread of devastating diseases such as AFB. Protecting the bees from pesticides is quite a nice benefit, too! I register my apiaries every two years and only need to give minimal information such as location, number of hives and honey flow info. If I lost any hives at that location during the previous period, I list that as well. It helps the state keep track of things like CCD, AFB outbreaks, mites, bee paralysis virus, pesticide poisoning, etc... They don't use the information to regulate me, but use it to track the spread of disease, make general assessments of the state of the health of bees in TN, and protect them from pesticide related losses.
I suppose that if the state NEEDED to do an inspection, I would be notified by phone first (another benefit of having the hives registered). The only scenario I can think of that might require that would be an outbreak of AFB or something similar that MUST be contained and destroyed immediately. A knowledgeable and informed beekeeper whom regularly inspects his hives is an asset to the state. A simple conversation may be all that is needed, but if an inspection is absolutely required, it, in most cases, will move briskly if everything is in order. I would not discourage the inspector from coming in such a situation just in case they can spot something I've missed. I would rather burn one hive than have to burn an entire apiary.
Registration's primary benefit for the beekeeper is with the pesticide issue. Honey bees have quite a range when there is a nectar dearth. I seem to recall hearing it was up to 8 miles! That equates to a possible forage area of 201 square miles, or almost 130,000 acres! Anybody in the forage area with a pesticide certificate is notified that I have bees and they contact me when they plan on spraying. It saves my bees which, in turn, help their crops. It's a win-win situation for both of us.
I do keep bees in three different counties and do move hives between the apiaries from time to time. In TN hives must be inspected before you cross county lines with them. It's not a big deal, only takes about 15-20 mins and is completely free. They're mainly looking for imported fire ants, SHB and the like. I find it helpful since I actually have fire ants in one of my apiaries and REALLY don't want to move them to either of my others.
As a side note, inspections aren't always conducted by the state here... Many members of our local associations have taken the inspection courses and can inspect your hives at your request. They can issue health certificates if you plan on crossing county or state lines with the hives, or simply swing by and offer a little help when you need it.
As far as for your scenario with the hive burning, here in TN, ONLY the infected hives are burned. You would want to do that anyway. Even if you soaked you equipment in bleach and dipped it in hot wax, the next colony will still probably end up becoming infected and having to be destroyed, too. The sooner the INFECTED hives are destroyed, the better odds your other hives have of avoiding the disease. The reason the State Apiculturist exists is to protect the bees and help insure their survival, not to destroy healthy bees.
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X:X X:X X:X X:X :cheer:
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As a side note to my rather lengthy post above, when I started beekeeping in 1995, I knew nothing about registering my hives. I didn't join the local beekeeping association, but read "The Hive and the Honey Bee" from cover to cover. I felt that I was armed with knowledge fairly well and purchased my bees and equipment. My hives did extremely well for about 4 months before they suffered a serious decline in population all of a sudden. I made some phone calls and found out that one of my old college professors was the state apiculturist and, lucky for me, he only lived about 20 minutes away.
I called Dr. Skinner and explained my issues. He ASKED if he could come take a look. I agreed and he came by later that afternoon. He looked at the hives, collected some dead and sick bees, and took them back to his office for testing. Within a couple of days he informed me that it was pesticide poisoning and that simply registering my hives would have avoided the loss. I have not had a pesticide related loss since!
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I had a hive in my back yard die quickly this past fall and suspect it was a result of pesticides, possibly applied by the city to control mosquitoes. I wonder if I registered my hives if I would have trouble from the city or if they might not have fogged insecticide down my alley? First loss like this in town since I began beekeeping in 2006.
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Since none of my apiaries are in the city, I've never dealt with mosquito fogging. My suspicion, though, is that they would have called you in advance. When someone in my area is spraying pesticides, I get a phone call a couple of days in advance.
My solution to the problem is a screened entrance and a screened inner cover or moving screen. I either show up the night before or morning of the application date and close up the hive entrances with screen. It must be done when the bees are in the hive or some will just get trapped outside. After the spraying is completed, I open everything back up and all is right with the world again. The bees don't like being cooped up when it's nice outside, but at least they're all still alive!
Brushy Mountain Bee Farm sells both items at a reasonable price. I imagine that there may be a source closer to you with similar products and prices. $20-$25 per hive is cheap considering the price of bees these days.
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I just wanted to say that this is one of most entertaining threads I have ever read!
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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE. Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy? It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.
I think bee inspectors are more than likely a really great bunch of folks who I'd probably really like and get along well with. My issue isn't with them personally. My issue is with any government agency FORCING citizens of the United States to do anything. I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves. I do not believe we need our government to do that for us.
Doesn't everyone here think we could police ourselves. Look at the comments that have been left on beemaster.com. We are an intelligent bunch of folks. The comments as a whole are intelligent, well written and yes, entertaining.
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Since none of my apiaries are in the city, I've never dealt with mosquito fogging.
And they do this Why? :?
Now that everyone is afraid of bird flue from Asia? It is the pesticides that should be outlawed not bee keeping or back yard farming.
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I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves.
What a dreamer. We live in an "all for me" society today.
We all have a right to privacy but when your actions affect my lifestyle you need a government for the people not for the private individual. At one time we had all the freedoms and if you didn't like what your neighbor was doing you just went over and shot him. Then one of his would come over and shoot one of yours. And then again, and then again etc. Is that what you want? I think that is how the rule of the land in Afghanistan works.
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Acebird - Pesticides are way over used. I agree. Several years ago the power company used a helicopter to spray the powerline right of way with herbicides. Everything on my farm is organic. I never use pesticides or fertilizers on anything. Needless to say I was irate.
I called the power company and they said it was standard practice and they had the right to do it. There was no need for it though. I keep the powerline right of way planted with lespadeza, for my horses, the quail and deer and for me just to look at. I finally hired an attorney to deal with the power company. They no longer spray herbicide on my farm and I had that part of the powerline removed and the power company no longer has a right of way there. I paid to have the line buried right in the middle of my driveway. Now, the power companies right of way ends at my driveway entrance. It cost me thousands of dollars and two years to fight this, but it was worth it.
If I had registered my farm previously as an organic farm they still would have sprayed. I would have lost the organic designation because of them. In a letter that I still have, they say they had the right to spray because they had rights to the property. They didn't care about my organic methods and would not have called me if I had registered. Pesticides and genetically modified foods are a pet peeve of mine. Don't get me started on Monsanto. Their ties go all the way to the Supreme Court.
As far as me being a dreamer... Not hardly. It is you who don't give the people enough credit. Get rid of the Government intrusion and WE THE PEOPLE will work it out. We just have a different belief system and that's ok. In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter.
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As in many discussions, half are saying 6 and the other half are saying a half dozen.
Both sides are correct. The government needs to be able to control to an extent, but there is a file line between what is good and what is too much or too little. That is why most of the government works on a reaction basis. Leave things alone until there is a problem then act. There are pros and cons with that method, but it is what we have.
You don't want them burning your hives, yet at the same time, you don't want them to allow me to raise AFB in hives a mile down the road from you for "research purposes", or any other reason.
There will always be a struggle to find the desired balance.
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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE. Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy? It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.
I think bee inspectors are more than likely a really great bunch of folks who I'd probably really like and get along well with. My issue isn't with them personally. My issue is with any government agency FORCING citizens of the United States to do anything. I believe we, as citizens, are much more capable of policing ourselves. I do not believe we need our government to do that for us.
Doesn't everyone here think we could police ourselves. Look at the comments that have been left on beemaster.com. We are an intelligent bunch of folks. The comments as a whole are intelligent, well written and yes, entertaining.
It may just be me, but I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are things that people do or not do everyday that is mandated by the Government for one reason or another. And no I don't think that people, beekeepers or not, should be allowed to police themselves and throw every law that exists out the window. Would you want to buy your spring packages from a AFB ridden producer? Nope, probably not, but if there wasn't MANDATORY inspections then you better believe that it would start popping up everywhere. Do you want a truck load of good ole boys drinking all the cold beer that they can consume and crashing through a school zone? Probably not that either, that's why there are laws prohibiting that as well. Are there problems with our system? Absolutely. But I choose our current form of government any day versus our other choices. Naturally I have a strong opinion about this due to my career, but sometimes people seem to take things that are so simple too far. We are talking about a bee inspection. That's it. No door kicking, gun grabbing, kids screaming in the background, "They came in dressed like ninjas with fully automatic weapons" News Channel 9 search warrant. It's a bee inspection only and I don't think it's any reason to go out and buy a copy of "The Turner Diaries" and bury a cache of ammo and MRE's.
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VolunteerK9 - I started working for the Dept. of Defense just after 9/11 and NO it wasn't for the TSA. I have seen government work its magic and I am not impressed. You can insinuate that I'm a crazy, paranoid individual that takes things way too far, but something tells me that the same things were being said of the Founding Fathers during their day. I am glad that the American people as a whole are finally starting to speak out about government interference, regardless of the good intentions the government claims.
After four years of working for the DOD I wised up and quit. Now I make a decent living as a farrier, blacksmith, custom sawmiller, small farmer and breeder of belgian draft horses. Now, I'm going to get into bees and after seeing what regulations have been imposed across this nation I have to tell you...
Me and a lot of other people are sick and tired of having to cut thru red tape that the government comes up with just so we can make a living. Apparently, you work for a government agency of some sort so I do understand your point of view. I've been there myself. Most people work for a company and pay their taxes and just try to get by without bothering anyone. That's fine, but for millions of people across this country that don't rely on someone else's American Dream (the companies most people work for) or our tax payer funded government to make a living, the regulations forced upon us are WAY to much.
That's why the Tea Party has had such an impact.
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I called the power company and they said it was standard practice and they had the right to do it.
Yeah, more of that "All for me" logic.
I think you went at them wrong. They have a right of way and you should have acknowledge that. What they don’t have is a right to pollute or destroy your land past the right of way line. It should be specified exactly how many feet that right of way was on your deed. The instant the herbicide crosses that line (and you know it will) they are liable for your losses. It should have cost them not you.
We are combating the exact same problem with hydrofracking.
In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter
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If you decide to sell out to an oil company are you going to care about the people around you? I would rather doubt it. Once you hit the lottery you are not going to look back.
This is one area that I have to agree with Kathy. We have to make sure government is working for the people and not an individual entity. Unfortunately, money is power.
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on this issue i am pretty much neutral on the govt. it is the right of the state to require this if they wish. i choose to avoid the state when i can. if it were the feds doing it, i would not be neutral.
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As someone said earlier, Wisconsin has no requirement to register Bees and we in Northern Wisconsin have no known such willing person to do inspections even if they were desired. The closest known association/club is two hours away for me.
Back when I was a "dumber" beek than I am now, I used to wish for some gentle old beek to help me out with the steep and ever changing learning curve that goes with keeping bees. Now after keeping bees for a while and meeting and talking with hundreds of beeks I'm no longer sure. As someone else said, I worry about "Chemical Treatments" being forced on my bees if some inspector percieves something and demands some "correction" to my methods. Or condemning my TBH or Long Hives (because they know little to nothing about their use). I Wouldn't tolerate that I'm afraid, they'd be asked to leave.
Perhaps if it was just a service that was provided on requst of the beek, I might go along with that I suppose. For beginners, I think It would be very nice to have someone at the State level (if no local assistance is available), willing to travel North of Madison (a four hour drive, so not likely) to help them out. It sure would save alot of bees I think.
My wife just reminded me of a USDA form we received a couple weeks ago (we used to truck farm, no more), one of the questions concerned bees and number of hives. Anyone else out there receive one of these? I'm pretty sure I lost mine :-\.
EXAMPLES OF GOVERMENT SYSTEMS THAT WORK
USMC, Army, Navy, Air Force, Highways, streetlights, protections that keep our food, drugs, products, cities, towns, forests and waterways relatively safe (safer than they'd be w/out "anyone" watching) and our people educated (could use some improvement) and mostly out of "Calcutta style" poverty, etc......etc......(and most importantly, those systems keeping the rich rich, just kidding on that one, maybe, maybe not ;))
EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT WORK
US CONGRESS
And I believe its gonna get worse (based on recent events) before it gets any better people, sorry. My advise is for everyone to grow bigger gardens, but that's just me. Everyones gonna do their own thing, kinda like Acebird said I guess. (I think parts of this thread belong on the Coffee House, a scary place indeed ;))
thomas
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Acebird - I don't know what your family history is and how far your roots go back on the land you own, but the land I now own has been in my family for nearly 200 years. I love MY land. It is MINE.
In 1936 the power company paid my Great Grandmother $16.00 for the right to put powerlines on our property. We are the last farm on the line. The line didn't cross MY property, it ended on MY property. Our land borders a large tract of publicly owned land and the power company only wanted the lines there because they thought the land ours borders was going to be developed. It never was.
Fast forward to 2004. The power company sprays MY land with poison. It is MY land. Not the power companies. Just because they HAD a right of way didn't mean they own the land. That is a misconception that many people have. It was a point of contention in court. I won.
My deed has now been recorded properly without the power companies right of way. You know, the one they took advantage of a woman in 1936 paying only $16.00 to get. MY land is MINE. Do I have an "all for me" logic when it comes to MY land? You bet I do.
Perhaps only those people that have had land passed down to them from one generation to the next can appreciate my point of view. People like me LOVE the land we care for. We will protect our land at ALL costs.
I know people like you don't like the fact that there are people like me out there blocking what you'd like to see become of the U.S. Well, guess what - our numbers are growing. We are finally speaking out against the "social justice" people like you are preaching.
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T Beek - You are right about this particular post belonging in the Coffee House now. When I originally started this thread I wanted to know if anyone knew if I had to have my hives inspected. I expressed my dislike if that was the case.
Its now turned into a "coffee house" discussion about political views. This was not my intention. I was given a link to a site maintained my the State of Virginia concerning bees and I was happy with that.
It is now apparent that there are some beekeepers that want "social justice" and therefore, socialism to take a strong hold in this nation. It's sad.
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After four years of working for the DOD I wised up and quit. Now I make a decent living as a farrier, blacksmith, custom sawmiller, small farmer and breeder of belgian draft horses.
I worked as a LEO for 8 years before I quit and became a Certified Journeyman Farrier through the AFA. Swore I would never be back, but two kids later, I'm right back where I started in LE looking forward to retirement. I raised draft mules with my Belgian and Percheron mares and have a huge collection of horse drawn equipment that I used here around the farm. The similarities are scary huh?.
That's why the Tea Party has had such an impact.
Enlighten me. I'm not calling you out, not drawing a line in the sand, just enlighten me on what the Tea Party has done to right the wrongs of 200+ years of free market capitalism. I think all of politics is crap. Repub's , Demo's, Libs , Tea party, whatever. They all have an agenda with favors to return and money to be made.
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Oh boy, here we go :pop:
thomas
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Back to the question of having manditory inspections, I believe the solution to beekeeping problems is not found in regulations but in having beekeepers that are well educated in their craft. Money spent on inspections would probably be better spent on classes to teach beekeepers how to conduct inspections and how to identify and treat bee diseases.
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Oh boy, here we go :pop:
thomas
Naw...I'll be good, I promise :-D
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VolunteerK9 - I figured you were in law enforcement. You have that mentality. If you want to know what the Tea Party has done just look at the last election. After being in office for only ONE MONTH I can only say that I expect great things to come. Like doing away with Obamacare.
I'm glad you raise draft animals and use horse drawn implements. I hope it becomes more popular. Do you come to Danny Wards in November for the Farriers Conference? If so, we've probably met. Farriers, like beekeepers are a great bunch of folks even though they have different political views. I have no harsh feelings toward anyone who has disagreed with me. I think it's good to discuss things.
T Beek - You didn't think I was going to go into attack mode did you? :-D LOL
AR Beekeeper - Beekeeping classes on how to conduct an inspection is a great idea as long as they were voluntary. I'd certainly attend.
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VolunteerK9 - You wouldn't happen to have a horse drawn loose hay loader do you? It's the only thing I don't have and finding one in good condition has proven difficult.
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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE. Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy? It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.
That's not entirely correct. Today, 16 years after I started beekeeping, I could still have my hives unregistered and the government would say nothing about it. Nobody has the time or desire to drive through the countryside looking for beehives just to check a map to see if they've been registered. The benefits to the beekeeper FAR outweigh the inconvenience.
The major benefit to me, the reason I will always register my apiaries, is pesticides. I very nearly lost two of my three hives just four months after I started beekeeping due to pesticide poisoning. Since I registered with the state, I've not suffered a loss. I'm notified anytime a farmer plans on spraying near my hives allowing me to protect my investment.
I agree that the government has overstepped it's bounds in many situations and has regulated TOO MANY things to the point where they are out of reach for the average citizen, but I think you've missed the points we're trying to make here... The government only cares about your bees if:
1) You are selling bees and or queens that were produced in DISEASED hives
2) You are maintaining DISEASED hives which are infecting other hives within your forage area
3) You are producing and selling more than 5,000 lbs of honey per year (FDA)
4) You are transporting DISEASED or PEST-RIDDEN hives across some sort of boundary, be it political or natural.
As an organic farmer, you are probably more aware of non-native garden pests than most of us other folks. these pests were imported and transported by some means, whatever it may have been. The same goes for SHB, varroa mites, tracheal mites, fire ants, EFB, etc... Properly inspecting a hive before moving it to another location is a trait of a bee "KEEPER", not a bee "HAVER." Not only will it protect your future apiary from these pests, but it will also protect your fellow beekeepers in the area. If the inspector finds these pests, he's not going to say fix this issue "or else," he'll offer to assist in fixing the issue. If you decide to move the hive anyway, there is not going to be a cop stationed down the road watching for hives on the move...
It works the other way, too. Let's say that someone else decides to relocate an apiary in your forage area. It could be infected with any number of pests or diseases. If they lost a hive to AFB and did not destroy that hive, your bees could potentially find the empty hive and rob the infected honey for their own use, thus infecting your hive. Every time you replaced your bees, they could suffer exactly the same fate until the other situation is corrected. If they transported fire ants, too, you will soon have them as well. Just because you are a prudent and knowledgeable bee "keeper" doesn't mean that your neighbors are as well.
Looking back at the AFB situation, this is probably the only situation where you might suffer an inspection in the real world. If you and your fellow beekeepers in the area suddenly start suffering losses from AFB and report the losses to the state apiculturist, that alerts them that there is a serious issue that must be fixed. They'll start inspecting apiaries in the area in an attempt to locate the source of the problem. If that infected hive happens to be registered, it will be destroyed as a measure to protect your own hives. If you suffer those AFB losses and never report them to the government, they may never know of the issue and you could continue to suffer losses - worse still, a major outbreak could ensue, endangering every honey bee in your region. I admit that this is not a likely scenario, but an example of the importance if hive registration.
Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection. This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal. In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health. The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected. The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive. They have too many other things to worry about. As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.
The governments goal here is to protect the bees we already have, educate the public about bees and ENCOURAGE more people to get into beekeeping. 70% of our food supply is dependent on the honey bee. If the bees go away, so does our food. the responsible bee "KEEPER" has nothing to worry about from hive registration. You will likely never even see an inspector unless you call one yourself. In 16 years, I've never had an inspection that I didn't ASK for personally. The irresponsible bee "HAVER" doesn't have anything to fear from inspections either... Worst case scenario, if an inspection happens and AFB is found, the INFECTED hive is destroyed. If the inspection were to find mites or beetles, they would merely suggest a treatment. It only serves to improve your bees' health and productivity, enhancing the benefits your hives provide.
No one will EVER say that you are NOT ALLOWED to own bees. No one will EVER take them from you. No one will EVER mandate a treatment regiment for your bees. There is only a MINUTE chance that you will ever be inspected unless you ask for it on your own. If you are an informed and knowledgeable bee "KEEPER" and get inspected, There is only a MINUTE chance that an issue will be found. If an issue is found, there is only a MINUTE chance that a hive will be destroyed.
There is a STRONG chance that one of the crops in your area will be sprayed this year. If your bees are using that crop as forage, there is a STRONG chance that you will suffer a pesticide related loss. If your hives are not registered, there is a STRONG chance that you will never be informed of the pesticide application.
Registration is a VALUABLE SERVICE that is being provided FREE OF CHARGE. It was never meant to be a hindrance or inconvenience. If you choose not to take advantage of this service, it's you're prerogative, but 99% of the bee "KEEPERS" out there will sing the praises of hive registration.
In short, I came to terms with registration because I recognized the benefit of doing so. I have never given up my right to privacy, because my privacy has never been invaded. My bees are NOT being policed, nor am I being policed. I have my hives inspected before transport, not because I'm forced to, but to protect my fellow beekeepers from unwanted pests and diseases. If I have a question that I don't know the answer to, I take advantage of the free service that is being offered to me so that I might become a better, more informed beekeeper.
Register or don't register.... your choice. After seeing the benefits, I for one will ALWAYS register.
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AR Beekeeper: I don't know, seems to me after reading this thread that most of the "Inspectors" mentioned receive little in compensation, if anything, unless they are employed by the State. For the most part their concern and interest seems focused on keeping bees alive and healthy rather than "inspecting" for a living. That's what I've gotten from the discusion anyway (in between all the blather and smoke, that is (thanx Captain Beefheart)).
Maybe what beeks "really" need is an active and viable (State Sponsored or Beek sponsored?) Mentorship Program for beekeepers, with members who are also qualified to perform inspections AND provide assistance as needed. I've heard some horror stories of "know-nothing" inspectors with too much power, so a well-rounded beek background would be mandatory.
Sorry, I have a farmers mind and I love planting seeds. HMmmmm
thomas
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VolunteerK9 - You wouldn't happen to have a horse drawn loose hay loader do you? It's the only thing I don't have and finding one in good condition has proven difficult.
Nope, but you could write this guy a letter and he's not that far from you. I've bought two truckloads of stuff from him. I'm a big John Deere fan and it was hard to find JD horse drawn equipment until I found his card in a Rural Heritage magazine. (I bought a 1 horse JD turning plow with a cast beam that still had the mfg's sticker on the plow handles) He's an Amishman, not an antique collector so the stuff works when you buy it.
*edited by me-I'll PM you his info. Posting it here might be a faux pas
It's been a while since Ive been there, but if he still has anything to sell, its worth the trip.
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EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT WORK
US CONGRESS
I'll make one exception to that. It is working pretty darn good for the rotten !@#$&* that are part of the club.
MY land is MINE.
Until the Indians organize their own tea party and use our right of ownership laws to take it back legally. And then you got squat.
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Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection. This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal. In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health. The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected. The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive. They have too many other things to worry about. As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.
The government won't complain about top bar hives because the frames are removable. That's why Langstroth style hives were required, when the disease and inspection laws were enacted. Removeable hives were necessary to insure a thorough inspection.
As long as a hive has removable frames they are in compliance with laws requiring inspection for diseases, and even if Langstroth hives are cited by statute a court is most likely to find langstroth type/style hives have removable frames and are therefore legal.
As a side note, neither judges nor attorneys instruct juries in one of their basic legal options; that of determining whether or not a law is even applicable, badly crafted and voided, or if it is even constitutional. Yes, that's right, Juries, as well as judges have the legal authority to deem a law unconstitutional. Juries can throw out laws as being to restrictive, overreaching authority, to intrusive, etc., all under the framework of ajudicating a case in law.
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Brian D. Bray - You are right. Juries do have the right to find a law unconstitutional. It's called Jury Nullification. If you are ever called for jury Duty and don't want to "serve" just say the words "Jury Nullification" and you will be immediately excused.
Personally, I feel that every jury should be informed of this power, but attorneys and judges HATE jury nullification because it gives power to the people.
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make any judgements against you for not wanting to register your apiary. I completely understand your position on privacy and private land. One of my apiaries is on land that my family has been on since the 1730's. It's our land and nobody else has any right to it... I just want you to weigh the benefits against any objections you have so that you can make an informed choice.
Here is an idea I just had. Find a local beekeeping association and go to a meeting or two. You don't even have to join or tell them that you already have bees. Ask these questions to people that have had bees in your area for years and see what they have to say about the local inspectors and guidelines. I think that may be a far more valuable tool than listening to me ramble on... After all, I don't have any experiences in Virginia - only Tennessee and Colorado.
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jd, can you put your location in your profile please? I never knew where you hail from until now and as of that last post I've narrowed it down to either Tennessee or Colorado :)
Scott
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jd, can you put your location in your profile please? I never knew where you hail from until now and as of that last post I've narrowed it down to either Tennessee or Colorado :)
Done... Sorry... I got so caught up in all these interesting topics that I never even looked at the options available!
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Acebird - I don't know what your family history is and how far your roots go back on the land you own, but the land I now own has been in my family for nearly 200 years. I love MY land. It is MINE.
One of my apiaries is on land that my family has been on since the 1730's. It's our land and nobody else has any right to it...
My cousins have been on the family farm since 1706 AND they got a receipt from the Susquehannocks who used to own it! :brian: Nyah-nyah! :-D Nevertheless, nobody minds much when the state inspector drops by for a visit. Since our family has been farming so long, and is fairly diligent about passing information down the generations, the ag inspector often learns a thing or two from us. Maybe because everyone and their brother seems to want to trespass on farm land? We have no end of free-range children running about wrecking crops, neighbors' cows that were unimpressed by non-electric fencing, random tourists trying to climb a fence into a bull paddock to pet the cute cow, inebriated hunters who fire at anything that moves whether it has horns or no, bratty teenagers shooting BB guns at livestock...
I think it varies from state to state. Some ag inspectors are just not very good, or are tools of the local agribusiness. Every time I hear a complaint from an organic farmer, a grass-pasturing cattle rancher, a small local producer getting shut down, it always seems to be in a state that has a healthy mega-agribusiness of some sort or other. Of which Virginia has several, by the by--Perdue, Smithfield, several others are out your way. Although Massachusetts is known for being the nanny state to end all nanny states in the US, we have lots of healthy smallholdings here, and the worst thing I can say about our Dept. of Ag. is that they can be slooooow to respond when there is a problem. I found it was much faster, when I had sick chickens, to run them to a private vet than to wait for the inspector guy to call back. Maybe because there are few mega-businesses and lots of small businesses here compared to other parts of the country? Don't know.
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Granted there are a lot of good inspectors out there, and I'll even say most. But until you have a bad one, you don't have any appreciation how costly it can be. My family was put out of business back in the 70s by an inspector that felt we where encroaching too much on his families honey business and took it upon himself to declare many of our yards to have AFB and burned them without even notifying us before hand. Nothing like driving into yard after yard and only finding piles of coals. We also found out through the grapevine that many hobbyist had hives confiscated (and would be destroyed) due to AFB. After we started putting the pieces together, it was obvious he wasn't destroying them but increasing his hive counts. So needless to say, I have no use for mandatory inspections and am please that NY just de-funded their inspection program, or at list in our region.
Also, a good many operations have hidden yards to handle their problems themselves.
I have no problem with having inspectors and having people request visits, but anything beyond that and I'm no longer a beekeeper.
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Registration's primary benefit for the beekeeper is with the pesticide issue.
Registration in Ohio won't help you with pesticide issues.
According to the State Inspector, to be protected here, you have to put a sign up by the road with clear directions to the location of your beeyard with contact information, and you have to have a sign up at the beeyard with your contact information.
But if that sign isn't up and visible at the road for everyone to see, folks can spray whatever they want with no advance notification.
For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.
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For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.
I agree. All of my hives are at out-apiaries now. They don't have a "protector" living on the same property. For that reason, no hive is visible from the road. I know that I may sound a little paranoid, but in the country there is very little entertainment. Vandalism is the national pastime for people that lack a good source of entertainment. If it were common knowledge where each hive was located, the vandals would have new targets instead of the old, worn-out mailboxes.
Believe it or not, theft can also be an issue. It's very rare, but does happen. I have my hives on permanent wooden hive stands. The bottom boards are screwed to the hive stand from underneath, and the brood box is stapled to the bottom board. Not fool-proof, but at least it's a discouragement.
Registration in Ohio won't help you with pesticide issues.
Really?! What good does registering you hives do? What's your motivation?
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Rob, that's a horrid story. I hope the guy got what he deserved!
Scott
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jdnewberry - You only came to terms with what your state requires because they said come to terms with it, OR ELSE. Has it dawned on anyone that everytime we are FORCED to register something wheather its guns or bees that we give up a little piece of our privacy? It seems that the majority of those of you that have commented on this post either don't mind that fact or you WANT to give up your GOD given right to privacy.
That's not entirely correct. Today, 16 years after I started beekeeping, I could still have my hives unregistered and the government would say nothing about it. Nobody has the time or desire to drive through the countryside looking for beehives just to check a map to see if they've been registered. The benefits to the beekeeper FAR outweigh the inconvenience.
The major benefit to me, the reason I will always register my apiaries, is pesticides. I very nearly lost two of my three hives just four months after I started beekeeping due to pesticide poisoning. Since I registered with the state, I've not suffered a loss. I'm notified anytime a farmer plans on spraying near my hives allowing me to protect my investment.
I agree that the government has overstepped it's bounds in many situations and has regulated TOO MANY things to the point where they are out of reach for the average citizen, but I think you've missed the points we're trying to make here... The government only cares about your bees if:
1) You are selling bees and or queens that were produced in DISEASED hives
2) You are maintaining DISEASED hives which are infecting other hives within your forage area
3) You are producing and selling more than 5,000 lbs of honey per year (FDA)
4) You are transporting DISEASED or PEST-RIDDEN hives across some sort of boundary, be it political or natural.
As an organic farmer, you are probably more aware of non-native garden pests than most of us other folks. these pests were imported and transported by some means, whatever it may have been. The same goes for SHB, varroa mites, tracheal mites, fire ants, EFB, etc... Properly inspecting a hive before moving it to another location is a trait of a bee "KEEPER", not a bee "HAVER." Not only will it protect your future apiary from these pests, but it will also protect your fellow beekeepers in the area. If the inspector finds these pests, he's not going to say fix this issue "or else," he'll offer to assist in fixing the issue. If you decide to move the hive anyway, there is not going to be a cop stationed down the road watching for hives on the move...
It works the other way, too. Let's say that someone else decides to relocate an apiary in your forage area. It could be infected with any number of pests or diseases. If they lost a hive to AFB and did not destroy that hive, your bees could potentially find the empty hive and rob the infected honey for their own use, thus infecting your hive. Every time you replaced your bees, they could suffer exactly the same fate until the other situation is corrected. If they transported fire ants, too, you will soon have them as well. Just because you are a prudent and knowledgeable bee "keeper" doesn't mean that your neighbors are as well.
Looking back at the AFB situation, this is probably the only situation where you might suffer an inspection in the real world. If you and your fellow beekeepers in the area suddenly start suffering losses from AFB and report the losses to the state apiculturist, that alerts them that there is a serious issue that must be fixed. They'll start inspecting apiaries in the area in an attempt to locate the source of the problem. If that infected hive happens to be registered, it will be destroyed as a measure to protect your own hives. If you suffer those AFB losses and never report them to the government, they may never know of the issue and you could continue to suffer losses - worse still, a major outbreak could ensue, endangering every honey bee in your region. I admit that this is not a likely scenario, but an example of the importance if hive registration.
Years ago Langstroth hives were mandated in many states because of the ease of inspection. This made all other hives such as "bee gums" illegal. In recent years Top Bar hives have increased in popularity because it allows the bees to create a more natural nest and possibly allows them to maintain better health. The people who maintain Top Bar hives still have them inspected. The government DOES NOT force them to switch to the legal Langstroth hive. They have too many other things to worry about. As long as everything is well maintained and reasonably healthy, they could care less.
The governments goal here is to protect the bees we already have, educate the public about bees and ENCOURAGE more people to get into beekeeping. 70% of our food supply is dependent on the honey bee. If the bees go away, so does our food. the responsible bee "KEEPER" has nothing to worry about from hive registration. You will likely never even see an inspector unless you call one yourself. In 16 years, I've never had an inspection that I didn't ASK for personally. The irresponsible bee "HAVER" doesn't have anything to fear from inspections either... Worst case scenario, if an inspection happens and AFB is found, the INFECTED hive is destroyed. If the inspection were to find mites or beetles, they would merely suggest a treatment. It only serves to improve your bees' health and productivity, enhancing the benefits your hives provide.
No one will EVER say that you are NOT ALLOWED to own bees. No one will EVER take them from you. No one will EVER mandate a treatment regiment for your bees. There is only a MINUTE chance that you will ever be inspected unless you ask for it on your own. If you are an informed and knowledgeable bee "KEEPER" and get inspected, There is only a MINUTE chance that an issue will be found. If an issue is found, there is only a MINUTE chance that a hive will be destroyed.
There is a STRONG chance that one of the crops in your area will be sprayed this year. If your bees are using that crop as forage, there is a STRONG chance that you will suffer a pesticide related loss. If your hives are not registered, there is a STRONG chance that you will never be informed of the pesticide application.
Registration is a VALUABLE SERVICE that is being provided FREE OF CHARGE. It was never meant to be a hindrance or inconvenience. If you choose not to take advantage of this service, it's you're prerogative, but 99% of the bee "KEEPERS" out there will sing the praises of hive registration.
In short, I came to terms with registration because I recognized the benefit of doing so. I have never given up my right to privacy, because my privacy has never been invaded. My bees are NOT being policed, nor am I being policed. I have my hives inspected before transport, not because I'm forced to, but to protect my fellow beekeepers from unwanted pests and diseases. If I have a question that I don't know the answer to, I take advantage of the free service that is being offered to me so that I might become a better, more informed beekeeper.
Register or don't register.... your choice. After seeing the benefits, I for one will ALWAYS register.
are you anywhere near a town called CORRYTON-RDY-B
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are you anywhere near a town called CORRYTON
I'm about 45 mins away from there... Pretty small town - I'm surprised you know where that is!
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yep small world- ;)--RDY-B
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For some reason beekeepers here think a sign like that is inviting more trouble for us than if we just kept quite and let folks spray.
I don't get it. What are they spraying for? You should be raising a stink on that alone.
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I don't get it. What are they spraying for? You should be raising a stink on that alone.
Farmers commonly spray to control various pests and diseases.
Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us? I would only make a complete fool of myself if I was raising a stink about the farmer down the road spraying his crops.
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Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us?
Who is the fool? The one eating the food the farmer has poisioned or the one asking him to stop?
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I don't get it. What are they spraying for? You should be raising a stink on that alone.
Farmers commonly spray to control various pests and diseases.
Why should we be raising a stink because a farmer is trying to grow food on their land to feed us? I would only make a complete fool of myself if I was raising a stink about the farmer down the road spraying his crops.
If each farmer kept all the chemicals they spray entirely on their own land, then only a busybody would pay any attention. But when sprays drift from his property to yours or mine, it is no longer an individual issue - it now involves a group of people. Some pesticides can wipe out a hive of bees. Other pesticides can destroy my vegetation on my property. The long term health consequences of other sprays are unknown.
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If each farmer kept all the chemicals they spray entirely on their own land,
That is impossible. Assuming it didn't run off into streams it would still leach into the water table and from there it goes hundreds of miles.
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Robo,,similar situation here, in the 70s, young man up to 50 colonies got the attention of the local big bee man who happened to be the inspectors brother in law. Upon inspection all hives were found to be infected with foul brood, though he had not pulled a frame, did'nt have to , said he could smell it, just went down the row popping the lids and dumping red paint. Put him out business real fast and eliminated competition..This was an aquaintence, made me inspector shy..
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Sounds like the B-n-law was related to 'Big Al'.
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Really?! What good does registering you hives do? What's your motivation?
Your motivation to register your beeyards is because it is required by law.
We have very weak protections in Ohio against pesticide poisoning. To have any legal protection against pesticide poisoning, you have to post a sign at the road (I believe a certain size) clearly stating the exact location of the hives, the owner, and the contact information for the owner. You must also post a sign in the beeyard with the same info. It sticks in my mind that you may have a burden to contact all the spray applicators in the area also.
and took it upon himself to declare many of our yards to have AFB and burned them without even notifying us before hand.
From what I understand, a commercial beekeeper had several hives burned. He sued the state and won something like $1.2 million. The court ruled that if an inspector finds foulbrood, they are required to give the hive owner the opportunity to medicate the hive. The inspector has to make repeated visits to check a foulbrood hive, and the owner has to ignore all the warnings, before the state can burn a hive.
Who is the fool? The one eating the food the farmer has poisioned or the one asking him to stop?
Considering that <2% of Americans are farmers, and the other 98% percent demand cheap food be provided to them - the one asking the farmer to stop producing food is the fool. Do you grow all of your own food? Are you willing to grow food for not only yourself, but 50 other people? Are you willing to pay 1/2 of your paycheck to buy food like people in other countries? If not, then you have no room to complain.
But when sprays drift from his property to yours or mine, it is no longer an individual issue - it now involves a group of people.
Spray drift is a minimal issue. You don't spray when it is windy.
Spray drift is not what kills hives.
Your arguments fall into the category of FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Following your logic, you might kill someone with your car, shoot someone, stab someone, or commit any number of crimes. We should just throw you in jail to protect everyone else.
Assuming it didn't run off into streams it would still leach into the water table and from there it goes hundreds of miles.
What about rainwater? Far more water is contaminated by naturally occurring chemical compounds than agricultural sprays. You do know why the oceans are salty, right?
Yesterday my local bee club had a beginner beekeepers class. I stood off to the side and shook my head no almost the entire time the bee inspector was giving his talk. He is completely misinformed, and trying to justify his $18 an hour, unlimited hour job. For example, he was going on about how much of a problem small hive beetles are, and I finally spoke up and asked him if we had SHB in our county - he sheepishly admitted that SHB has never been found here. Then he started going on about how much of a problem foulbrood was, until I spoke up and asked him how often he has found foulbrood. (once, and he wasn't positive it was fb) Once again, he sheepishly admitted that foulbrood is 'not very often'. Then he was talkign about how feeding essential oils to bees coats the varroa mites with the oils and suffocates the mites. (Anyone see the BS in that?)
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During these times of reducing State, County, Federal services, this position seems like a good place to begin the elimination process. The "last" thing any Beek needs is Mis-informed "experts" giving talks on subjects they know litlle to nothing about.
Thanks for standing up and speaking out at your meeting X:XCountryboy. Wish it happened more often.
thomas
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Do you grow all of your own food?
Not yet.
We bought a ½ cow and ¼ pig pasture raised. Our garden provides about 40% of the vegetables we eat. We are just learning. When we get better I am sure we will hit 80-90%. Right now our food costs have gone down not up. When we reach the 80% mark our food bill will be much cheaper that buying Big AG crap. You are the one trying to instill fear and twisted economics. My guess is you will be running for Congress next.
Poisons are poisons. I don’t care if they blow over to your neighbors yard upon application or not. Eventually they will get there. They are also absorbed by the plant that you eat from the first application on. Each application increases the dosage.
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I can be a real pain in the arse when it comes to 'homegrown' food preaching. I'm constantly telling those I love and like to plant/grow bigger gardens and at least try saving "some" seeds. The usual response is that 'its too hard' which is simply pitiful, and this is from alleged "country" folks. I guess that despite all the complaining, we're not suffering quite bad enough yet ;)
If one believes in such things, its easy to assume that our ancestors are spinning their graves and our future generations will likely condemn us (and not just because we've collectively forgotten how to wildcraft, grow or kill our own food).
thomas
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The usual response is that 'its too hard' which is simply pitiful, and this is from alleged "country" folks.
For most people it is too hard, but you can always buy from someone else that does it right. Then you got big Ag telling everybody that good real food is expensive.
The real economics is what does it cost for health care when you ingest, corn, growth hormones, pesticides and chemical fertilizers all your life as opposed to what your body really needs to be healthy. And what would it cost (globally) if most of your food came from local sources where you didn’t have to burn fuel to ship it thousands of miles from where it grows. The whole economic thing is a smoke screen.
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If the Obama Administration ever makes good on its rhetoric, ending the subsidies provided to the gas and oil industry (Health 'Insurance' industry would be a good elimination starting point too, and I think we're close, now that the disaster that was passed has been fully exposed as a 'gift' to said industry), and we see $10.00 plus gas prices, it may finally motivate the paradigm (evolutionary?) shift and changes in our culture that are required for our future survival, transitioning from mass consuming crap to producing local goods and food, due to direct need and expense.
Of course, I've been waiting/preparing for all this to happen since the 70s, so.......... ;), we'll see.
Like I said, we're just not that uncomfortable yet; see EGYPT :) despite all the complaining. It would do most Americans some good to leave this Country for a bit in order to get some idea of what the rest of the planet is doing. Just a thought and I'm certain its quite OFF TOPIC :-D Sorry.
thomas
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i don't disagree that we have lost the ability to do for ourselves. it is unfortunate, but the cost of not having readily available food it not in fuel, it's lives.
last year i put in the large garden as usual. our weather was so crappy that i got nothing more than a few tomatoes and some peppers. everything else was either stunted, or rotted. the squash didn't even mature. if our only source of food had been the garden, we would have starved to death. then there is the problem of protein. raising meat is expensive and if you don't have land, you are not going to be able to do it. the exception would be poultry, but if that's going to be your meat source, you need to raise a bunch of birds. if you are going to do that, you need to have a lot of freezer space.
the cost of fuel is driving up the cost of even small farming. unless you have 5 or 6 kids who drop out of school to farm, doing it by hand is a pretty tough prospect.
you have the problem of regulations. if you don't live in a rural area, good luck raising what you need. never mind that you need lots of space to be self sufficient, you town or council probably won't let you do what you need to raise meat and even tear up you property to properly raise veggies. the old victory gardens would not happen in a HOA.
the idea that higher fuel costs will modify our behavior is true. it's just not a modification that anyone would like. higher fuel cost impact cost of everything, not just food. it's also worth considering that we a healthier (if not fatter) because we have a wide variety of food to choose from. the importing and exporting of food has no doubt contributed to the longer life spans we have enjoyed over the last 100 years.
be careful what you wish for...you may get your wish to "be uncomfortable".
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Fortunately for me, my present comfort level is already uncomfortable for the majority.
I'm ready for $10.00 gas 'today' KathyP :)(turning this computer into a door stop wouldn't bother me much either) and despite farming/gardening in a climate with a 90 something day (last to first frost) growing season we've always produced an excess, so trucks/ships being unable to bring me tomato's in January won't disrupt my routine a bit.
Comfort is really just a state of mind anyway.
thomas
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the importing and exporting of food has no doubt contributed to the longer life spans we have enjoyed over the last 100 years.
Not in this country. The longer life spans we use to enjoy was a result of an easier lifestyle
AND affordable healthcare. Lifespans are decreasing now due to what is being put in commercial food, the lack of physical exercise AND that healthcare is no longer affordable on an individual basis so people go without. It has absolutely nothing to do with importing food in this country. I think in Japan's case importing food from this country has decreased their lifespan also.
last year i put in the large garden as usual. our weather was so crappy that i got nothing more than a few tomatoes and some peppers.
If you suffer a loss with a bee hive do you quit?
Not everyone has to produce their own food. But to say you have to taint the food to make a profit is pure hogwash. The difference between organically grown and non organically grown is 10% or less in yields. So where's the beef?
Some of the big farms today are not producing food anymore they are producing fuel with a net energy loss. Does that make sense?
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Lifespans are decreasing now due to what is being put in commercial food
show me data to back this.
I think in Japan's case importing food from this country has decreased their lifespan also.
and this.
i do understand that there was a headline about this that made a big slash, but the report failed to do a meaningful breakdown. it failed, for instance, to account for those who had immigrated to this country as adults and had not had benefit of good health care or diet in their home country.
life span 100 years ago was much shorter than now and there were not packaged foods to account for it.
But to say you have to taint the food to make a profit is pure hogwash
did i say this? i merely point out that when your only source of food is what you have grown, you may find yourself SOL when things go wrong.
Some of the big farms today are not producing food anymore they are producing fuel with a net energy loss. Does that make sense?
it make no sense. putting a food source in your fuel tank is the height of stupidity. subsidizing same, is the height of government stupid, waste, and is typical of government programs.
not to mention what it's done to our weed whackers........
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it make no sense.
It makes sense if you are big Ag. You have the government at your fingertips for support and vertually no regulation because it is not food. Watch out!
show me data to back this.
Now it's my turn, do your research...read. Or is that too much work for ya now. :-D
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Now it's my turn, do your research...read. Or is that too much work for ya now
you made the assertion. it's not up to me to prove it.
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it's not up to me to prove it.
He, he, it is not going to affect my life if I prove it to you now is it? ;)
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Blah, blah, blah. You people know, history is mostly fiction, right? Most of our recognized HIS-STORY includes tales told with "some" facts sprinkled in and written or financed by some rich white men who made sure "their' version survived and any others put underground (literally, more often than not).
What do you think has been removed from the history we've been convinced is true? Anything?? Does anyone else even consider this? Not enough, I think. Like putting in a garden, its too hard :roll: We'd rather absorb someone Else's interpretation of history as long as it 'fits' our own personal viewpoint. It makes it easier to live with ourselves I suppose.
As long as someone brought it up; 100 years ago most Americans were still on the farm, something like 80%, a complete reversal from today and most were extremely self-sufficiant when compared to what we've become. I doubt any of them on farms 100 years ago were dieing due to starvation (of course this doesn't account for the dust bowl years, which were directly related to the AG Industry, due to its own shortsighted profit motives, people were starving then, no doubt, but it was more likely due to the poor farm management practices farmers were told to adapt by the Ag Industry, more than anything else).
100 years ago people (even children) in our cities factories could still be 'worked to death' and likely contributed as much to a lower life expectancy as the 'alleged' diverse food shortage implied above. We could use a movement/union like the 'Wobblies' (sp?) now more than ever. ONE UNION FOR ALL WORKERS was/is a mantra worth embracing. Again; See EGYPT
100 years ago Banks and their owners ruled our world for their own profits just like they do now. That hasn't changed except they've gotten even better at manipulating us; See FOX News for many examples :-D I know, I know, now I've likely started a fight, but hey, this IS still America, right???? We'll see.
I still say this conversation is way OFF TOPIC and should be sent to some other place besides a beekeeping site.
thomas
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... I wonder how all those Africans have managed to crawl into the heart of an "Africanized" colony and take the honey from them with no bee suit...
HBW1412, is this the type of bee keeping you had in mind?
Facing angry bees 40 metres high and unattached for honey - Human Planet: Jungles, preview - BBC One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_iMve4xvg#ws)
Watch closely, the African bees in this video sting.
The ax Te-Te uses is almost an exact replica of the one buried in a glacier with Otzi the Ice Man over 5K years ago, except that Otzi's ax had a copper blade and
Te-Te's ax head looks like steel.
I wonder when someone is going to say something about Te-Te selling out to
"THE MAN" just because poor Te-Te had the nerve to use a steel ax to rob himself a little honey?
On second, though we may not bee charging enough for Ross Rounds, comb, and chunk honey, if folks will go to this much danger and trouble for old dark honey comb with brood in it.
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kingbee - Fundamentally, Yes. That is the type of bee keeping I had in mind. He was unimpeded by a medling government agency. He didn't have to worry about an inspector. He just did his thing. Just imagine if he had to have an inspector inspect that hive or if he had to register the hive before he could harvest the honey. If he lived in certain areas of America and did that he'd be a criminal. Not to mention child protective "services" taking his children away.
Granted, my method of harvesting honey would be drastically different. This video does show something else that I mentioned in the same post you are quoting. Africanized bees don't seem to be anymore dangerous than any other bee species. I am still not convinced of the danger Africanized bees have been made out to pose.
Just so you know, I haven't been in Walmart for well over a decade. I do not like my money going oversees. This patriotic mindset does cause me to have to look harder for the items I need, but they are out there. I even pay a little more, but the extra cost is offset by the life of the product. Americans produce products with superior quality.
As far as 'ol Te-Te selling out to "The Man" as you put it, I don't think anyone would say that because he is using a steel ax. My bet would be on a local blacksmith making that ax out of steel mined by Te-Te's fellow countrymen, therefore, Te-Te is a patriot.
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... I haven't been in Walmart for ...over a decade...
When I die, I want to be cremated and my ashes sprinkled on Wal-Mart’s parking lot so my wife and children will visit me every day. :-D
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:lau:
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For the unaware, Just thank God you are not getting all the Government you are paying for.
Next, Life expectancy is a political thing. People are still dieing young and growing old just as they did thousand.s of years ago.
:)don2
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:lau:
Thanks kathyp, you made my day.
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Poisons are poisons. I don’t care if they blow over to your neighbors yard upon application or not. Eventually they will get there. They are also absorbed by the plant that you eat from the first application on. Each application increases the dosage.
You do realize that plants naturally produce poisons to combat pests and diseases, and levels of these toxins are often higher than trace amounts of synthetic chemicals. If you spray plants with pesticides, they have lower levels of these natural toxins. The question is which one is worse for you.
and at least try saving "some" seeds. The usual response is that 'its too hard' which is simply pitiful, and this is from alleged "country" folks. I guess that despite all the complaining, we're not suffering quite bad enough yet
There are people on eBay saving their seeds and selling those seeds. (like me) Considering the thousands of dollars I, and other eBay sellers are making, I'd agree that folks aren't suffering enough to save seeds themselves.
And what would it cost (globally) if most of your food came from local sources where you didn’t have to burn fuel to ship it thousands of miles from where it grows. The whole economic thing is a smoke screen.
Have you ever been to a farmers market and compared the price of locally grown produce with the price in a supermarket? Eggs are 99 cents at Aldi's - but locally produced eggs go for $1.80 at the local produce auction. The whole economic thing is just a smokescreen for folks who do not understand economics.
then there is the problem of protein. raising meat is expensive and if you don't have land, you are not going to be able to do it.
Meat is not the only source of protein. Corn and beans provides a very complete protein. Insects are another source of protein - studies say you can get adequate protein from grasshoppers by gathering grasshoppers one hour a day in fields, and one hour a week gathering grasshoppers along lakes. Used to, poor folks use ratmeal instead of flour to make their bread. (ratmeal is ground up insects.)
if our only source of food had been the garden, we would have starved to death.
As the local crop advisor says, "If food disappeared off the shelves, most folks would starve in the land of plenty." Does the grass in your yard grow? Grass is actually very nutritious for you. Dandelions were brought to North America as a vegetable crop. Do nettles or lambsquarters or clover or the myriad of other wild plants grow in your area? What about nuts and acorns? Most folks would be shocked if they only knew how many plants are edible.
Maybe you are trying to grow the wrong crops for your area.
the cost of fuel is driving up the cost of even small farming. unless you have 5 or 6 kids who drop out of school to farm, doing it by hand is a pretty tough prospect.
I'm a small time farmer. My $ production per acre is quite high compared to conventional farming. I don't have ANY kids to help me. It all depends on management - you can work hard or you can work smart.
if you don't live in a rural area, good luck raising what you need. never mind that you need lots of space to be self sufficient, you town or council probably won't let you do what you need to raise meat and even tear up you property to properly raise veggies. the old victory gardens would not happen in a HOA.
Do you have ANY greenspace? Eat your yard. My brother told me when he was in the military, in poor areas with apartment buildings, they would take a piece of PVC pipe, and drill holes in the side of it. They would stand it on end, fill it with dirt, and plant plants in the side of it. These vertical containers would line stairways and fire escapes.
You don't need that much garden space to be self sufficient. Last year, 3 rows of kidney beans yielded me over 5 gallons of dried beans. That's a lot of servings of beans... For most garden, 4-8 sq feet can easily produce a pound of corn. How many pounds of cornmeal do you eat a year? Lots of southern folks ate johnnycakes to survive after the civil war.
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If you spray plants with pesticides, they have lower levels of these natural toxins. The question is which one is worse for you.
This part I can answer, the man made toxins because they will always have other substances contained within them that will turn out to be harmful in some way. Just think of all the aspirins and pain killers that are being produced today. People are taking them like candy.
If an edible plant has toxins it will not hurt you otherwise it would not be an edible plant. A plant sprayed with pesticides will definitely hurt you in one way or another.
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Countryboy; Your analysis and perspectives were right on, thanks.
thomas
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I have noticed that many of you speak about getting your hives inspected...
Every state is… different. Some … register… hives. Some want an inspection on all hives to keep diseases at bay. Some only do inspections if you are a breeder or bee producer. Some do nothing…
We don't have to register our hives in WI, but we can, if we want to have the state inspector come out and inspect our hives . . . for free...
Every state is a little different. Some just want you to register your hives. Some want an inspection on all hives to keep diseases at bay. Some only do inspections if you are a breeder or bee producer. Some do nothing…
[in]... NC. We have a group of inspectors that come when you call. Every month, every week, once a year, or never...
In Florida, the inspector is on the look-out to see if the bees in a hive have been Africanized,…
... we haven't had an active bee inspector in Washington in over 20 years...
Nebraska scrapped it's registration and inspection laws about a decade ago. But I PAY to have them inspected so I can sell queens...
We are now back on topic. What are the bee laws in other states in HBW1214 region, like Tennessee, Georgia, or South Carolina? Anyone know?
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As I eluded to way back at this posts beginnings, although someone mentioned that Wisconsin (not sure whom it was refered to, whether State or private/club inspectors??) offers inspections, none are required by the State (for now).
That said, it is unlikely any such inspector (State or other) would be willing to travel the 3-400 miles North of Madison to conduct these (free?) inspections. At least I haven't found one so willing.
I suspect that a 'forced inspection' of any kind would be remote at best in Wisconsin.....for now.
In reviewing the orginal post, it seems this discussion may have began as another attempt to instill some 'unnessesary' fear into the hearts of people who have better things to do :-D.
thomas
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Countryboy: Thank you! :yippiechick:
I have heard the, "I don't have a green thumb, therefore neither does anyone else" argument more times than I can count, and sometimes from supposedly professional agronomists who should know better.
This:
It all depends on management - you can work hard or you can work smart.
is absolutely 100% dead-on. I see lots of farmers who work hard just to make themselves extra work. Can't tell them different though, sad to say.
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those of you who are experts in farming please do let the rest of us know when you have figured out how to control mother nature.
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:wierd:
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those of you who are experts in farming please do let the rest of us know when you have figured out how to control mother nature.
'Farming experts' know they can't control mother nature. They've just learned how to play with the curveballs mother nature throws.
I was fortunate enough to learn quite a bit from a very successful farmer before he died. He was looking for things he could do right now to help next year's crop - while he was planting this year's crop. Also, he didn't try to hit a home run every year, with the biggest yield or contracting the highest prices - he strived for consistent singles and doubles (sports analogy). In Bill's words, "You'll never go broke taking a profit. Sometimes the best thing to do is to take the money and run, and don't look back." (Meaning not to let it bother you if the price goes up after you sell. The price would have dropped if you held. Take the profit and be satisfied.)
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Successful farming, like successful beekeeping, requires persistant learning and the unwavering ability to roll with the punches.
The 'only' secrets I've learned (long ago) in farming is to pay attention to weather, don't get to big and "grow lots of different crops.'
As in beekeeping, and for the same reasons, its better to have several bee colonies rather than one or 2 (or thousands, but that's just me :-D)
One or 2 die-outs out of ten won't hurt too bad, just as one or 2 crop failures won't hurt if you've got 2-3 dozen other crops to harvest. Does this make sense to those asking??
thomas
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of course it does. however, we were presented with a spewing of ways to survive with plants in PVC pipe.
there are years when no matter what you have planted the weather defeats you. last year was one of those years. it was not expected. it just happened. IF that garden had been my only source of food, i would have starved. it was not just me. i have friends who are commercial farmers. they had a really bad year. in spite of the bees, the fruit didn't set. it was not warm enough for the corn to mature or the tomatoes to ripen. so.....yes, i guess i could try planting corn in a PVC pipe, but it doesn't seem practical.
the year before was pretty good. drying food and canning in good years is a really good idea.
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Sure KathyP, there's as much advise about farming/gardening out there as there is about beekeeping, likely more from my own experience, really. Now c'mon, what do "you" usually advise folks when given so many options in beekeeping?
In our area (many areas actually) root crops (when still operating, our farm business name was "the Root Seller"), onions, most legumes (food and seed), potato's, Cole crops, many fruits (we have apples, wild plumbs, cranberries, cherries, currents and blueberries) to mention a few, can/do exceptionally well with only limited efforts once soil has been enriched with organic matter. As said, variety is the spice of life. Do to a very late frost last year, June 19 I think, we had 'no' apples last year, but we had back ups.
We use a small (6x8) greenhouse (and our house windows) to start many plants and then plant many varieties under hoops (and have at ready, boxes full of blankets to protect from early and late frosts), and which assist in lengthening our growing season by as much as 60 days, some years. We learned that if we wanted to keep our seeds 'true' we'd have to 'block' our bees from pollinating some of them (peppers, for instance).
If we only limited our garden to ten or so crops, we wouldn't starve (too many deer, grouse, squirrels and turkeys around ;)) but our taste buds would be in revolt for sure ;). So, we typically grow at least 2 varieties, and as many as 6 different 'varieties' of carrots, beets, turnips, rutabagas and parsnips alone. When still operating we sold 22 varieties of garlic (seed from all over the world).
I should mention that we never had more than five (2 just with garlic, but that was before NAFTA) acres planted and that our current 'enclosed' garden is roughly 1 1/2 acre. We've always had plenty to eat and donate.
And This hasn't even touched on what's available wildcrafting herbs and other edibles :-D.
thomas
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there's as much advise about farming/gardening out there as there is about beekeeping, likely more from my own experience, really.
^This^
But if you are truly interested, may I recommend Joel Salatin's books? He mainly raises livestock, but the same principles apply to plants. We have a local agronomist who works with wheat genetics, and he found while researching wheat strains, that in regions where they have consistent harvests and crop failures are rare, they grow what's called polyculture wheat--several strains with different characteristics all mixed together. His findings have since been replicated at U of Manitoba. This is entirely consistent with the experiences of my Mennonite and Amish cousins' farms: They keep a variety of vegetables, grain, fruit and livestock, several varieties of each kind of plant, and if it's a bad year for one crop, it may be a good year for something else. Total losses are rare for them.
Another suggestion if I may: Tree crops do not fail completely nearly as often as vegetables, and take significantly less work than minding a garden full of annuals. The initial investment is higher, but it is much less work, fertilizer and irrigation than a vegetable garden after a couple of years. If it's consistency you're after, several varieties of trees and bushes, once established, can produce a lot of calories in exchange for relatively little work.
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don't get to big and "grow lots of different crops.'
I think trying to get big is what did in most family farms.
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That, and the banks and implement companies that convinced them they HAD to get big to survive.
thomas
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there are years when no matter what you have planted the weather defeats you. last year was one of those years.
the year before was pretty good. drying food and canning in good years is a really good idea.
You have to take the good years with the bad. You stockpile in good years, to help get by in the leaner years. It's the same principle for keeping a rainy day fund, versus living paycheck to paycheck.
Now let me ask you this - did ANYTHING grow last year? I am NOT asking about your garden and the plants 'you' tried to grow. I am asking about everything from your lawn to weeds on the roadside. I'd bet that you had quite a few wild plants that did ok last year. Now, how many are edible? Everything from cattail roots to dandelions to the grass in your yard are food plants. Don't limit yourself by planning your garden thinking of what you like to eat, rather than what grows best in your climate. (I like to eat bananas and pineapples, but those aren't good crop choices for my location.) Don't be afraid to be an opportunist, and eat whatever crop is available if necessary. (I'm taking on a pollination job this year, pollinating a smaller orchard. I'm getting paid in fruit - 3 bu/hive. If worst comes to worst, I'll have apples to eat.)
You'll notice many survival type gardens grow a wide range of crops, to minimize crop losses due to weather. Your corn might not mature, but your root crops like carrots and turnips may do great in the cooler wet weather. Sparrow grass (asparagus) does too.
If you're really hungry, keep in mind that people tending lighthouses in barren locations have survived by eating tallow candles and shoe leather.