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ALMOST BEEKEEPING - RELATED TOPICS => FARMING & COUNTRY LIFE => Topic started by: JP on December 06, 2009, 10:08:44 pm

Title: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 06, 2009, 10:08:44 pm
They were fine with their run for about a week. Their curiosity and appetite had them wanting over and on the other side of the run.

It all started with Bertha, she's the leader of the pack and where she goes, they all go, except for Cindy, who may be a runt or perhaps just a bit slow.  For the life of her, she just can't figure out how to get on the other side of the run.

It's somewhat hysterical, at least to me, to see five hens going about their business in the yard and Cindy is just staring at the pack, pacing back and forth, as if she was dropped on her head shortly after birth. So I feel sorry for her and place her over the run enclosure where none of them should be, but I'm a softy, so they have the full yard to venture out and do chicken things.

I trimmed all but Cindy's left wings today and it didn't help not one bit, they just jumped over in complete defiance. Even with their wings clipped, they still could go where Cindy couldn't, maybe she'll snap out of it one day, forecast looks grim however.

My two rat terriers still hate them with a passion and I believe my old chow girl Sophie, who's slowing down quite a bit (She's 14 now) if given the chance would make them pay dearly, cause that's what dogs do and Sophie is mean (not to people) with a sweet face.

This evening I widened their perch, which they are enjoying right now (so good!) and made a pull out poop pan. Kind of an experiment, we shall see how it pans out. ;)

Oh, I could go on...

Pictures to come soon.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 06, 2009, 10:49:53 pm
Oh JP, chicken stories are funny, and yours made me laugh. You have been assimilated, for surely.  I would love to see pictures.

Now something to remember when you take pictures of your gals.  Squat down and get a good many of your pictures at their level.  I see so many pictures of chickens that would be wonderful, except they are taken when the human being is standing up and it gives such a out of balance distortion to what that chicken looks like.  I know it is not always convenient to squat down to take a picture, but it certainly tells a different story.

Chickens are masters of escape.  Any small place that is not totally secure they will sneak out of.  Now with your pen, you may have to add an additional height to it with poultry wire.  Not knowing how your yard has been made, I can't advise any better.  But you are a man, you will figure out something to keep those gals in, you know your dogs want them, smiling....thanks for the little update and story, it was cooooool!!  Have those beautiful days, to love, live and enjoy with beautiful health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 07, 2009, 12:30:53 am
I'll have pictures soon. I'll either squat down to their level or let my wife take the pictures, she's low to the ground. :-D


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 10, 2009, 12:17:16 am
I let mine roam the yard as well but even if I didn't I couldn't keep most of them in.
I would go in the run and open the coops and then lock the gate behind me, within a minute most of them start flying over the enclosure.
They act like they have every right to go wherever they want, they fly out and look over their shoulder at you like yeah, so?
There are only a handful that like to stay behind, even when the gate is open for them, they hang out in the enclosure and the rooster won't leave them.
I have 2 roosters so one stays with the girls in the run and the other patrols the yard.
Isn't it funny how they all have their own little personalities?
Look at you writing stories about your chickens like Cindi now.
We told you how much fun they would be, they change your life.
Yup, watch out for the dogs, they are born chicken killers.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: reinbeau on December 10, 2009, 09:01:02 am
Our run is covered with chicken wire.  Way too many hawks around here to leave them out there all day long, they'd be picked off one by one.  When we're out in the yard they're loose, we've had the hawks come close (not as close as Natalie has!!)  but so far they haven't taken a bird yet.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 10, 2009, 10:47:51 am
Yes, the hawks can be a real pain. A good point to bring up Ann.
I think my dogs deter them around here alot but I had to first train the dogs to leave the chickens alone.
Even so I give them places to hide just in case they need to, I put in 15 new shrubs this summer and they go under them, I turned over the canoe too but they still like to go under the grill and the log pile, places like that. They do that anyway though, they like to nap under small spaces.
My hives are actually a favorite of theirs, they build a big dust bath hole under the topbar hives and nap there.
Sometimes you will find 5 or 6 of them napping under there but its also a good place to go for cover.
Ann is right, we have had some close calls with hawks. They hungrier they are the more brazen they are.
Our new run will be covered for when we can't be home, for the most part someone is always here putting around the yard and I leave them out when I leave for short periods of time but if I am going to be gone for longer periods its good to have it covered.
Hawks are very brazen but they need to be able to swoop in and out in one motion in order to grab an animal so if you have alot of broken up space its harder for them to plan a flight path down to grab a chicken.
For instance a tree in the middle of your run or various trees around the yard, furniture etc.
I am assuming it has to do with them not being able to take off from a complete stop with the extra weight.
Since yours like to roam just make sure they have somewhere to hide if need be.
Alot of people have to worry about coyotes and other predators on a regular basis so I am thankful that we only have to deal with the occasional hawk otherwise I wouldn't be able to freerange them at all.
You'll know when there is a hawk near or probably any other predator, they let out a warning cry that is different from any sound you ever hear them make.
Make sure your coop is locked up good at night because chickens cannot see in the dark at all and a predator can go in and wipe them out one by one because they can't defend themselves and can't see to get away.
I have heard some real horror stories.
 
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: reinbeau on December 10, 2009, 03:43:30 pm
Mine love the asparagus, but I'm about to bum them out, because it's been crushed by the snow, so it'll be cut down soon.  They hang around the edges of the yard, though, so they can dart into the woods if they need to.  My neighbor's rhodies are a favorite hangout, lots of good evergreen cover for them in there!  :-D
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 10, 2009, 04:01:36 pm
Thats funny, I have one chicken, the speckled sussex that loves my neighbor's huge rhodie and she hops over the fence between our houses to go hang out in their shrub.
I use to try to chase her out of it but they think its funny and told me to leave her be.
So she walks around their property like she has every right and they will say oh I saw Sadie today, she was in the driveway or sitting on their bulkhead or whatever.
She does this every day, apparently she doesn't have enough to do in our own yard. :-D
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 11, 2009, 10:44:26 pm
Eeeeew, those hawks, I have had two encounters over the past two months with them, never had an issue with them before, but this year things must be hard for them, no clue why, it has been no different than other years.  Well, that I know of.

The first time, I was around, the hawk flew into one of the chicken yards and landed in a tree, just on the perimeter.  I hollered and yelled at it and was running to it throwing sticks.  It flew away.  That was that.  Everyone had hidden inside their houses or under some brushy stuff near the side of a pen.  No rooster call that made an alarm that day, he must have been somewhere else.

The other day, I was doing some stuff inside the small chicken house.  I heard the rooster scream.  As you are saying Natalie, that sound that they make when they really mean business, is nothing on earth that you will ever forget.  This I can only equate to a scream.  The roosters spend their entire day watching the sky, the area around, everything, never foraging much, just watching.   I heard Ivan scream, loud and clear and immediately went outside to see what was up.  This sound makes my blood run cold, as I know it is a command from the rooster, not a warning, but a clear and present danger command.  This command was given to all the chickens and roosters, about 35 birds in total.  They knew if they didn't listen, their beautiful lives would be over, each one believes this very deeply.  The cochins all ran into their houses, the younger set of birds all headed for the bushes, deep underbrush, covered in blackberry vines, where nothing can get at them, never in a million years could anything get down from above down into there, the older set of birds all ran to two separate houses, hiding in places I never would have dreamed they could fit, but they did (I was shocked at how small a place a bird can squeeze into when the desire is there).  And Ivan stood there, beneath the wide overhang, watching and watching.  I was watching him as I was watching the hawk.

The hawk alighted upon a wheelbarrow that I had recently been using.  It was just outside the one side of the cochin run.  It perched on that wheelbarrow, its back was to me.  I ran out to that spot and yelled and yelled at the top of my lungs.  Things I won't repeat here, smiling, I can make some pretty loud sounds for a small gal.  I picked up a yellow plastic electric fence post and swung it in the air at it.  It was this final measure that made it fly away.  But not far.  It perched in a tree that on the perimeter of my yard and looked at me.  Nerve of brass.  I still had the electric fence post in my hand and threw it as high in the air and with all my might (was really good at swinging at bat at baseball, and still have a pretty good arm).  The fence post went high in the air, not even coming close to the bird, but it made a point.  The bird flew away to another tree, as if it was taunting me.  I picked up the fence post again and began to wave it, the bird finally left.  Guess it got sick and tired of my silly antics and thought that there would be no point to further try to get a meal here.

The young birds would not come out of the bush for quite some time.  I am a patient woman and I waited for them to come out.  In the meantime, I encouraged everyone to go into their houses and I locked them in. Eventually with some nice coaxing the younger ones came to me, and I encouraged them to go home too.  This was 11:00 in the morning, they stayed safe and sound within their night homes until about 3:00.  I let them out again for about and hour or so.  By this time the waning light is causing the birds to want to go into a nice place to rest and sleep, and with a teeny tiny bit of encouragement, all went back into bed, safe and sound, all tucked in, with my wishes for a peaceful sleep.  Those hawks.  Those hawks.  Beautiful days, love and live them, with great health.  Cindi


Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 12, 2009, 01:22:36 am
I purchased two more hens tonight, they are silver laced wyandottes (sp?) and are approx 7 months old and laying now, yea! They are quite beautiful, that is if you like chickens, I do!

They make a medium/large egg, light brown, more tan like. Hopefully tomorrow they will lay for me and I will see eggs in my nest boxes for the very first time.

I will take pictures tomorrow of the gang and my newly improved run. This chicken stuff us fun y'all!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: annette on December 12, 2009, 01:29:48 am
Maybe they will lay golden eggs :rainbowflower: :rainbowflower: :rainbowflower:
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 12, 2009, 10:58:58 am
Maybe they will lay golden eggs :rainbowflower: :rainbowflower: :rainbowflower:

I hope they do, my water heater went out this morning.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: annette on December 12, 2009, 01:20:02 pm
Yiks!!!
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 12, 2009, 03:09:23 pm
Here's some pics, first are from the park down the street from me. They have a marshy area where the ducks, turtles and nutria live. Chickens, geese, swans, gulls, rabbits, nutria, etc... abound.

Next are my chickens, including my newly purchased silver laced wyndottes.

Pics: http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/December122009?authkey=Gv1sRgCNvZkMueqvKXHg# (http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/December122009?authkey=Gv1sRgCNvZkMueqvKXHg#)


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Irwin on December 13, 2009, 08:35:05 am
Thank's for the pic's hope you got your hot water heater fixed
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 09:23:10 am
Thank's for the pic's hope you got your hot water heater fixed

Well, its been quite a fiasco about the water heater, the company that came out is being very particular, wants permits pulled and upgrades, etc...

First thing I did was ask H.O.'s if my friend could do the work, they said no, if so they weren't paying cause he's not on their list.

When they called me back (H.O.'s) and told me what they weren't covering, I told them for that much money ($900.00) I'd rather pay someone I know to do the work. After a bunch of back & forth horse doo doo, they finally said I could exercise my "cash out" option. Well, why didn't they tell me this in the first place? With the cash out, they will be sending me a check towards the fix for a yet to be undisclosed amount.

Long story short, my friend (a contractor) is coming out tomorrow morning to do the install.

Hey, got my first egg this morning from one of the new SLW hens. She was on the nest last night, so I knew it would happen. Gonna go take a picture in just a second.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Irwin on December 13, 2009, 09:44:34 am
What a bunch of doo about your water heater. you would think they would do all they could to help so they would get a return customer. Now let's see the egg :-D
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 13, 2009, 11:00:07 am
JP, cool, loved the pictures, your hens look very happy and the set up looks great!!  Nothing like the first egg, go and eat it!!!  You will notice an amazing difference compared to store bought eggs -- and just think, in no time you will have eggs coming out your ears, smiling.  Silver Laced Wyandottes are beautiful birds, I have some too, they are very steady layers and are just so ding dang pretty.  I also have the gold laced, they are pretty too.  I like that you took pictures from a low level, it gets the vision of the birds so much nicer, and one can really see what they look like, instead of a picture taken from standing up, where that view is very distorted.  Keep the pics coming.  Good luck with the water heater thing, bummer....have that wonderful and great day, health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 11:57:37 am
Here it is folks, my first egg, from one of my SLWs. They lay a medium egg. My wife said it was worth waking her up at 7 am on a Sunday morning to see the egg.

Pics: http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/December132009?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvipbn-8vbcWg# (http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/December132009?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvipbn-8vbcWg#)


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Irwin on December 13, 2009, 12:03:45 pm
That's one fine lookin egg :-D
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 12:10:56 pm
I believe I would have had two this morning if it were not for all the rain we've had the last few days and the fact that I just purchased the SLWs Friday night. I don't think stressed chickens lay as much so everyone is settled in now and the rain has let up. Should be good from here on.

My other chickens are pushing 21 weeks old and need more aging before they start laying, is what I've been told. Should be knee deep in eggs before I know it!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 13, 2009, 01:21:48 pm
Nice looking birds Jp, I had 2 SLW myself but they were prone to being eggbound.
 They were the most daring hens I have ever had as well, I named them Thelma and Louise. They were nuts from the get go always trying to fly out of the brooder and when they were older they were always the ones that flew to the highest point in the yard or hopped the fence every chance they could.
We really enjoyed them but as I said they both had health problems at only a year old and are the only ones that we ever lost due to any type of health issue, I don't know if it was from the breeding line I got them from or what.
You are correct hens will not lay when they are stressed, once they settle in the are fine.
Your other girls should be laying by now or any minute now though at 21 weeks, especially for orpingtons.
Easter Eggers can start laying later some of mine were 28 weeks but my orpingtons and other hens started laying between 16 and 20 weeks.
Because its dark and gloomy and they need 14 hours of daylight to lay they may start even later, as in spring.
I have had pullets that would go into lay during winter but then I have had some that were thrown off by reaching maturity during the shorter daylight months and waited until spring.
The thing of it is you just never know. Hens do their thing and you can never tell.
Half of mine just got over a moult and they did not lay for the entire summer and I have only been getting a few eggs a day but this morning when we went out to open the coop there were 8 eggs already and the others will lay throughout day.
So just when you give up they decide to give you more eggs, its like the watched pot will never boil.
It sure is getting cold here, I had an egg crack the other day from being cold.
I usually check several times during the day for eggs but must have missed this one because when I got it it was frozen, swollen and cracked open.
I made them some hot mash the last couple of mornings because of this weather.
I know this sounds weird but I like the sound of when the ground crunches beneath my feet when I walk out to the coop.
Its dead quiet in the early morning and all you can hear is the crunch of the ice when you walk.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 02:30:21 pm
I just did the math and now believe my first batch is pushing 19-20 weeks and not 21 weeks of age.

Natalie see my SLWs, under their chins they have a flap as well as their combs, both very red and large. Will my other hens get the flap under their chins?

Hey Nat, I love that crunchy sound too, don't get to hear it very often though down here in the south.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 13, 2009, 03:36:30 pm
Yup, those are wattles and the other hens will get them too.
Roosters have much larger ones and they get them earlier so you can usually tell them apart from pullets at a younger age.
I checked out your pictures again and you can see that you wyandottes are more mature than the others and that is why they are laying, they have their wattles in and they are bright red.
You will be able to tell when your other girls are ready to lay, their combs and wattles will get a very bright red and they will crouch down to the ground when you go to pat them on the back, as in as soon as they see your hand coming they squat.
Its a sign of submission and something they do for their rooster, its a sign of maturity and they usually lay withing a week or two of doing that.
If your hens get a pale comb or wattles someday you can assume they are either going to moult or need more protein or they are just getting plain old.
Your wyandottes are a good hearty breed, they do well in the cold and they have those rosecombs instead of the cockscomb which do not get frostbite as easily as other breeds, although you probably don't have to worry about that down there.
When it gets cold enough here I put vaseline on the roosters combs to keep them from getting damaged by frostbite.
They don't particulary like it though and you should see me running around the yard after them trying to rub vaseline on their combs. :-D
Your girls are coming up on the laying age soon, although the shorter daylight hours may affect some of them it won't affect all of them.
I had some that went into lay in the dead of winter.
Wait until you get those colored eggs, its so exciting.
You will be giving away eggs to all your friends and then you will need even more hens to keep up!
Pretty soon you will be like me, you will want some of each kind.
Hey you know what is really pretty? The blue laced red wyandottes, I bought a pair at a poultry show that are just gorgeous.
Check them out here.


http://www.bluelacedred.com/gallery1.html (http://www.bluelacedred.com/gallery1.html)
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 04:10:33 pm
Wow Natalie, those are cool looking. I like this one: http://bluelacedred.com/birds/08pullet.htm (http://bluelacedred.com/birds/08pullet.htm)

So, in the next few weeks or so my hens will grow waddles?


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 13, 2009, 04:22:31 pm
She is gorgeous. Looks like my girl.
I was with Greg and Ann the day I bought my pair and we were trying to pick out the ones with the best markings.
Its an amazing difference between the quality you get from hatcheries and breeders, did you see the comparison chart on that site?
It really doesn't matter if you aren't going to breed them but I like to have nice looking birds so I am always looking for some good breeders.
Your girls will grow wattles.Their chests and necks will fill out more too as they get more feathers in.
 I would say by the time they are 6 months they all have some wattles.
You will also see them fill out more like your wyandottes, they get what I call the pantaloons aka fluffy butts. I love to watch hens with pantaloons run around, they hop from one foot to the other and look like old women that are trying to hold up their dress and run. Okay maybe thats just me being a weirdo :-D
Sometimes I throw scratch out just to watch them come running across the yard at full speed, it makes me laugh, okay maybe that weird too but I am easy to entertain.
 
I never use to give them any thought and then I decided to look them up and found that wattles and their combs actually help to cool chickens down.
Check out this link, it describes the functions of the chickens anatomy, pretty interesting.

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00044/id16.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00044/id16.htm)
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 04:41:29 pm
Interesting about the combs Nat. I have noticed that Cindy's (one of my BOs) feathers behind her legs and below her cloaca have filled out significantly in the last week or so. I love those feathers!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 13, 2009, 11:42:23 pm
Man, I need to get back here, to spend more time, so much to say about what I have been up to with the chicken species of critters.....

I have a friend, she is raising the Blue Laced Red Wyandottes, they are in extremely high demand in Canada.  The problem is for many people wanting to raise this breed is that we are across the border and it is difficult to get different strains of these birds.  There are so many hatcheries/breeders in the U.S., but the health papers to import hatching eggs or day old chicks is just so out of reach that there are great difficulties, hence so limited supply of BLRW.

Personally, I don't like the Blue Laced Red Wyandotte colouring, very unimpressive to me, but others are just raving about it and  are wanting it deeply.  That will happen for them, eventually.  My preference is the Gold and Silver Laced and White Wyandotte breed.  I have breeding stock of the Gold and Silver Laced. The Silver Laced Wyandotte that I am currently incubating come from a friend that has shown this breed in some very current poultry shows.  They have won the first prize in their class.  This strain of SLW is large, and I mean large, perhaps again half the size of my SLW hen that I have raised from a hatchery order.  The typical SLW have been bred these days more for egg production, and the size has diminished.  Through selective breeding, this line of birds that I have hatching eggs from, has been restored back to the original bred of the Silver Laced Wyandotte, which is substantially larger than the current "hatchery" bird.  This strain originates from Ontario, there is a very powerful breeder of this breed there, and still breeds the large strain, more like the original  breed of the SLW.  In the forthcoming spring I will be obtaining the hatching eggs of the White Wyandotte. These birds are extremely winter hardy with their rose comb.  The White Wyandotte is on the critical "watch".  This is a breed that I must endeavour to cultivate (sounds like a plant I know), as our imminent move to a very cold climate is soon approaching.   I am ramblin', hope it all makes sense, and yes, as I said, I need to get back. But as things are, chickens are far more interesting in the wintertime than the bees that are dormant, oops, yes, I still love my bees, but they are just so, on that back burner until the beginning of February.  Beautiful days, to love, live, share, and Old Man Winter, will soon be on his way out....health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 14, 2009, 11:37:03 pm
Interesting about the combs Nat. I have noticed that Cindy's (one of my BOs) feathers behind her legs and below her cloaca have filled out significantly in the last week or so. I love those feathers!


...JP

As poults mature and start to lay their combs will grow larger and turn from a pink to a bright red, their cheek wattles will also grow in size and color just as the comb.  One way to differentiate between laying and non-laying birds in a flock is to pay attention to the combs and wattles those with little color, smaller size, etc, are poor or non-laying.  A hen that is laying daily or every 2nd day has a bright red comb and wattle and a bright eye.  I've repeatedly watch poults go from laying a single small egg once a week with only a bright strip of comb and wattle to laying almost daily with the large and bright comb for their breed. 

Moulting birds will also be poor lays as the birds will loose color in comb and wattles as the old feathers fall out and new ones grow in.  By the time the moult is over, however, the color and size of the comb should be large and bright red for that breed of chicken. 

I rotate my birds on a 3 year rotation as most breeds of chickens will lay fairly well for three years, after that they lay very eradicately and the eggs will vary greatly in size and shape.  By the 4th year their egg production is no longer adequate to justify their food costs.


Cindi:  My younger brother has a few White Wyandottes that he's thinking of butchering, if you like I could get them, a rooster and 3 hens, and give you some eggs.  The catch is you have to come for a visit, just like last time.  They are 5.5 months right now so just beginning to lay.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 20, 2009, 09:07:14 pm
 I've had my Silver laced Wyandottes 9 days now and have gotten 7 eggs from them. They are a little more than seven months old. My other six are around five months old is what I was told. I have had them almost a month now.

As Brian pointed out hen's combs will redden as will their wattles when they are about to lay. My Easter Eggers (Of which I have 4) have lots of feathers (I believe referred to as beards) under their chins, so its hard to see if they even have a wattle.

Strange things have been going on in the coop this past week. My EEs & my two Buff Orpingtons have really been checking out the nest boxes, even sitting a little, with others in a line or side by side in the nest box.

Today, one of the EEs was really checking the nest box out. From observing the two SLWs I am beginning to understand their habits & rituals before & after laying an egg.

So this one EE, I really forgot which one it was, either Bertha or Ms. Purdy goes in and sits awhile. I thought something might be up & sure enough she layed her very first egg today! A beauty! Olive colored.

Easter eggers are a mutt chicken derived from the Americana breed (I may not have spelled that right) and I've read that they can lay eggs with quite a variance in color, blue, blue/green, olive & even on rare occasion pink.

So here it is next to some SLW eggs: http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/FirstEEEgg# (http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/FirstEEEgg#)


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: reinbeau on December 20, 2009, 09:44:52 pm
Oh, that is a beauty, JP, I miss my greenish blue eggs, the EEs were the first to shut down for the season.  Maybe that means they'll be the first to restart?  I did get three today, that's the first time in a long time I've got more than two - but no one laid for the past two days.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 20, 2009, 10:04:03 pm
I've been working on the coop the last two days Ann. Yesterday I had to take an hour & a half break because Speckles wanted to lay an egg! Dare I disturb her.

Today, Vera wanted to get in but I was in her way workin' away. I'm very excited over that olive egg Ann!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 20, 2009, 10:54:13 pm
Hey thats awesome! Your first colored egg! Its a good size too for a new layer.
I just had two start new layers start, believe it or not in this blizzard today, one was a sky blue and the other was turquoise and my older easter egger just kicked back into laying after her moult and I got my first egg in months from her today, it was green.
My husband just found a secret nest today as well.
There was a dozen or so eggs under a pallet in the carriage house, there were two different kinds, white and brown so there were at least two hens sharing a secret nest under there little super secret hideout.
How on earth they can even fit those big behinds under that pallet I'll never know but at least now I'm on to them.
If someone goes out of the house to the backyard through the carriage house and leaves the door open I usually find a hen roaming around in there that I have to kick out, they know I keep the food there so the more brazen ones will go in and poke around if they get the chance.
This happened to me before, Sadie my speckled hen was hiding them in a shrub and I had to toss more than a dozen eggs.
My girls were not happy about the weather today, the snow has kept them in their run.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 20, 2009, 11:16:38 pm
So no way of telling how old those eggs are huh Nat? Think its safe to eat them, or you gonna ditch them?

We ate four of our very first seven eggs today. We have been buying free range eggs from whole foods for $4.88. I told my wife, "You know how much these eggs are worth?"

She says, "Yeah, these eggs cost $400.00!"  :lau:

That's the way she sees it cause that's at least what the coop cost to build. So if that's accurate our seven eggs are valued at $57.14 a pop! We consumed $228.56 worth of eggs this morning. :lau:

Boy were they good!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 20, 2009, 11:43:37 pm

Wow those are some expensive eggs :-D

Yeah, I tossed the eggs I found. Its always a bummer when you have to do that but I am still getting between 12-16 eggs a day right now so I guess I can go cry in my eggnog.
I got a new brown egg layer today too, forgot about that, it was a small pullet egg.
This is what happens alot of the time when you get spring chickens, some will start laying in the dead of winter and others will wait until spring.
This is why I like to hatch my eggs in the fall or no later than December/January.
Then I have them all laying in the spring with the older hens.
Its not a popular concept because they have to be in the brooder longer but it doesn't bother me, I only have them in the house for a couple of weeks and then the brooder moves to the carriage house and they have always done fine.
I sell all the eggs that we don't use or share with family, friends, neighbors etc. and the farm where I sell them starts their season in April so I want to take advantage of that.
I sell them for $5.00 per dozen and it pays for all of their chicken feed and supplies plus the extra money goes toward what I spent on the coop.
I do well and it solves the problem with the extra eggs.
I am actually all set with my flock right now, I like what I have and will keep it at that.
The town science director gets fertile eggs from me to hatch for the kids in the various classes and when he is done he returns the chicks to me.
I have one group of chicks coming back to me tomorrow and he is picking up more hatching eggs from me at that point but anything that hatches after this I will just bring to the monthly poultry swap I go to.
It works for both of us, he needs alot of eggs during the year and he said it was getting cost prohibitive for him to be purchasing hundreds of eggs and then he was left with the problem of finding homes for all the chicks.
I offered to give him the eggs for free but he still had the problem of finding homes for all the chicks and I couldn't keep them all(could you imgagine) so I hit on bringing them to the swap, I can sell them for a couple of bucks apiece and the people that buy them are all chicken fanatics so they go to good homes.
The best part is he doesn't have to do away with the hatching program for the kids, its an amazing thing for the kids to watch, heck I get all excited too watching my chicks hatch out.
Maybe you will get a brood hen this spring and you will have to go out and find some fertile eggs for her, then you can have baby chicks all over the place too.
Hey that reminds me whatever happened to Jerrymac? He was always good for some chicken chat.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 21, 2009, 12:51:10 am
I pmed Jerry about a month ago. He's ok, knee deep in chickens I presume. He said his bees never really produced all that much for him, that he was taking a break for a while. Yeah, Jerry had some good chatter to share, I miss him.

Sounds like you really enjoying your set up, that's great!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Irwin on December 21, 2009, 12:51:49 pm
When I had chicken's and found a mess of egg's hid away some where I put them in a bucket and filled it with water and the ones that floated were bad and the ones that stood up needed to ate first and the ones that laid flat were new.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 21, 2009, 08:26:15 pm
When you gonna get some again Irwin?


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 21, 2009, 09:32:43 pm
When I had chicken's and found a mess of egg's hid away some where I put them in a bucket and filled it with water and the ones that floated were bad and the ones that stood up needed to ate first and the ones that laid flat were new.

That's a good trick to use when you find that hideout nest now and then and you don't have a candler to check with.  I found one nest last year and put all the layed flat eggs in the incubator and had all but one hatch--it wasn't fertile.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 21, 2009, 11:08:59 pm
I have heard of people doing that test too but these eggs look like some of them had been there a while and it was so cold this weekend that a couple of them were cracked open so I just chucked them all.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 22, 2009, 12:57:37 am
Brian, I would come to your place for a visit any ol' time, just send the invite, it would be after Christmas, we'll talk. 

JP, you truly have been assimilated, listen to you!!!  All that chicky dicky talk, I am proud of you, friend, smiling.  I knew one day that you would go to the world of the chicken, you had such a keen interest in the stories of Whoppo and me.  I just knew that that would transfer from Muscovy duck to chicken, and here you are.  Eating eggs that cost like in the $50 range each, smiling.  So glad that your chickens are bringing you such pleasure.  You ain't seen nuthin' yet.  Just wait until you get some hen go broody and you got a dozen little chickies running all around.  Ooops, guess you gotta get a rooster eh, smiling.  Now would your friendly neighbourhood allow that?  Perhaps that will have to wait until you move to the great ol' country itself.  But hey, ya....by the time spring comes around, no doubt you will get a broody hen, then you will be going crazy trying to find some fertile eggs for you.  I could throw you a few through cyberspace, to land right beneath that belly of your big fat ol' broody hen, smiling.....

I love to hear all of my forum friends' stories of their birds, their lives, keep 'em comin' and keep the pics coming too, too cool for school.  Have that beautiful day, living and loving it, full of good health. Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 24, 2009, 02:36:40 pm
I deepened my coop by 18.6" and added additional 2 x 4 supports for the main frame & the roof framing. I had to do this because my first rendition was 1 x 4s & not enough 2 x 4s.

Thought I would make it light & mobile, hence the 1 x4s, bad move, wasn't thinking, lessons learned, 2 x 4s don't
warp, 1 x 4s do.

Nothing about this coop is standard construction so try not to laugh too hard at what you see. Mind you, I've never built a shed or anything like this, but now it is stronger than Fort Knox albeit a most unorthodox design.

Roofs good, chickens are happy, I'm happy, so...

Pix: http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/NewImprovedChickenCoop?authkey=Gv1sRgCM2i16-hleqaNg# (http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/NewImprovedChickenCoop?authkey=Gv1sRgCM2i16-hleqaNg#)


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Natalie on December 25, 2009, 01:33:05 pm
It looks great Jp. The thing about chicken coops is that you hardly ever see any two that are exactly alike.
Everyone builds them to their own personal preferances and with whatever materials they have on hand or have access to, so don't sweat your unique design.
You are a good chicken daddy.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Sparky on December 25, 2009, 10:32:37 pm
It looks great Jp. The thing about chicken coops is that you hardly ever see any two that are exactly alike.
Everyone builds them to their own personal preferances and with whatever materials they have on hand or have access to, so don't sweat your unique design.
You are a good chicken daddy.
Yes and how fast the girls have grown.  :'( Seems like only yesterday they were filling out with feathers.
Seriously JP they look happy and your coup is very functional. You did a GOOD JOB !!.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: jimmy on December 25, 2009, 11:00:08 pm
WoW you go 1st class JP . I just can't help but ask, will the bed and BREAKFAST  be open for Mardi Gras ?   :evil:  Just kidding of course. Hope everyones christmas went as planned. Jimmy
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 25, 2009, 11:12:00 pm
Thanks for the feedback, I believe I've learned a good bit with this coop project. The eggs are starting to come in. The EE's eggs are so pretty its hard to eat them!

Hey Jimmy, I posed a question to all the Ms people on the BYC forum to see if your daughter is a member there but haven't seen anything come up. If she's not a member, tell her about the site: http://www.backyardchickens.com/ (http://www.backyardchickens.com/) I thibk she's like it.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: jimmy on December 26, 2009, 12:15:00 am
JP I mentioned it to Kim last nite . She said she was aware of  the site ,but thought it was only a trading board. If she is on there she goes by" sassy." jimmy
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 26, 2009, 01:05:35 am
JP I mentioned it to Kim last nite . She said she was aware of  the site ,but thought it was only a trading board. If she is on there she goes by" sassy." jimmy

I'll look for her & tell her hello Jimmy. Have a good one, take care of yourself.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: reinbeau on December 26, 2009, 07:10:54 pm
There's a 'Sassy' there registered back in July who has no posts, tell her, if it's her, to delurk and join the fun!
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 26, 2009, 08:56:10 pm
There's a 'Sassy' there registered back in July who has no posts, tell her, if it's her, to delurk and join the fun!

Yeah, I pmed her yesterday & no response yet. I wonder why she thinks its just a trading board? It appears to be the largest if not one of the largest chicken forums on the planet.

Hey Ann, getting those olive eggs, 5 now.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 26, 2009, 11:56:58 pm
JP, well rock my socks!!!  YOu are turning out to be a pretty fine woodworker, I think your coop looks simply marvelous!!!  See, I can see that you took many of your pictures of your birds down at their level.  It makes a really big difference when we get to see that the chickens really look like, instead of just the top of their heads and back.  Good job, my friend.  Your chickens look healthy and very happy, as are you too, smiling.  Great, eggs!!!  Yay, those Easter eggers and their muffs look so cool, also love the lacing on the SLW, beautiful birds, yay!!  Have that most wonderful day, with the best of great health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on December 30, 2009, 11:37:34 pm
How do you chicken people heat your chicken boxes?  In Australia, the government has recently done away with the incandescent globe in favour of more energy efficient lights.  However, these produce very little heat.  A mate said that the halogen globe probably produces about half the heat of the incandescent, so it would be possible for someone to rig me up a pair of globe sockets and use two halogen globes at once.  Does anyone use a better way of heating their chicken box or have any other ideas?

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 31, 2009, 12:08:26 am
Lone, is doesn't get cold enough where I live for the need to heat the coop, others that do will hopefully chime in soon.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on December 31, 2009, 12:40:00 am
Lone, the adult chicken houses are not heated.  They can stand very cold weather, like below freezing.  If their coop is dry, draft free, then the birds do just fine.  The little chickies must have warm temperatures, until they are like about 2 months old.  In about 2 weeks my oldest group of chicks will be of age to go with the other chickens.  I cannot offer any advice with light bulbs.  We have the energy efficient bulbs too, in many places, but we can also still buy the infrared light bulbs.  This is what I use for my young chickies.  Have that wonderful day, life, health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on December 31, 2009, 01:03:01 am
Hello JP,

I live in a tropical climate.  Usually we breed from an incubator between July and November (winter to spring).  When you finally get those roosters and start your breeding program, and if you decide to use an incubator, you'll find you'll need to heat their first box, maybe until some feathers start to grow.  Bantams may need a bit longer than large fowl.  I generally put them into a box for 3 days so I can medicate them with oxymav100, then transfer them to another box for a few weeks.  I set eggs weekly so they hatch about the same time.

While I'm ranting, I'll just mention a few points about disease control, JP.  I am speaking from experience.  My advice is to breed your own chickens, or get them from the same breeder.  If you keep spotting pretty ones here and there, your chance of bringing in a disease is increased.  Some people have access to vaccinations, but usually those who live near a chicken farm and can use their facilities.  For most of us, the expense and number of young chickens you need to have makes this impossible.  I have heard it said that live vaccinations can bring disease into an otherwise clean area.  That is how they think some diseases have actually spread.  If you put vaccinated chickens too soon with unvaccinated, the virus can potentially infect them.  

Anyway, we used to have a bit of marek's disease here, a nasty slow death by paralysis.  It was only the odd one, but I spent a few days on the tractor and brought in clean soil to cover the entire yard, and that seems to have eliminated it, because mareks can live a long time in soil.  There has been the odd bout of something like coccidiosis, but I think the oxymav treatment gets rid of that when they are hatched, so that has been no problem.  But the worst disease has been ILT, a kind of herpes virus that kills about 80% straight away (the acute form), then some get the chronic form, with breathing trouble and infected eyes, then the remainder are probably carriers.  The only cure is to kill all your fowls and leave the yard empty at least 80 days until the virus dies.  I think I either picked it up from some chickens I bought in another town, or from taking my chooks to the shows.  A few years ago, it spread through Brisbane show, and the poultry had to be quarantined.  I bred a lot that year, and when they were about 3 months old, within 2 weeks most had died.  They only get symptoms for 24 hours.  The next year, the same thing happened.  I called the DPI 2 days before christmas, and they rushed a couple of sick ones to brisbane and had them tested.  This was during the avian influenza scare.  They gave me the information about ILT, so I had to kill the few remaining and cleaned the coops out with lysol.  The only good thing was that the disease is not carried through the eggs, so I was able to breed from a few eggs and keep the prize winning line going.  Now my chooks are happy and healthy.  

Not all diseases are bad.  The other day, a girl brought a hen with worms in the eye.  The old fellas dabbed iodine tincture in the eye, and you could see the worms die.  You can often treat an infected eye the same way, but sometimes respiratory infections such as ILT actually appear as goopy eyes.

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on December 31, 2009, 01:12:11 am
Hello Cindi,

The infrared globes seem like a good idea.  Can you give me more information about them please..like how many watts do you use, and where can you get them, and do they last a long time left on continuously?  The incandescent ones would blow quite often from being on all the time.

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 31, 2009, 10:32:52 am
Thanks for the information Lone. I will not be getting any roosters until we move (one day, who knows when) to our place in the country. Right now I'm an urban chicken keeper & roosters would certainly cause an uproar with the neighbors (worse than the bees did, lol).

A few of my chickens (I believe my two newest ones) did have what appeared to be a small case of roundworms. I treated their water with Wazine & about every 4-5 days I'll add Diatomaceous Earth to their feed. I also add D.E. to their droppings to kill everything wiggly except earthworms. Other than that my chooks (first time I've ever used that word, hee hee [for Cindi]) seem to be pretty darn healthy.

I purchased the first lot of 6 then about two weeks or so later purchased another two, from the same gentleman.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Irwin on December 31, 2009, 10:49:47 am
JP did you let the guy know about the worm problem.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on December 31, 2009, 08:49:41 pm
JP did you let the guy know about the worm problem.


I called him immediately when I discovered my first one and a few days later when I found others in a single poop pile.

He's a great country gent who lives in the middle of nowhere with wife & kids & a bunch of chickens. It sounds like he goes through quite a lot of chickens. He said he's found just one worm & has been applying D.E. to food & dusted his coops.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on January 01, 2010, 04:07:21 am
Hello JP,
You can't really avoid parasites like lice, fleas, mites and worms.  You just have to worm every 3 months like with any pet.  The stickfast fleas here are hard to treat, but there is a sheep wormer we just got called Ivomec which knocks most of them.  We sometimes also spray all the coops and chooks with a cattle spray called Barricade S. Lice spread easily but they are not too bothersome.  You inspect the tail end and it looks like white lumps.  We sprinkle a powder called coopex around the tail and it fixes it.  Of course, these things are worse with a large number of fowl.  We probably have around 200 chooks here, I haven't done a count.  

The other reason we don't introduce new stock here is because they do line breeding, i.e. mate the parents with the offspring to keep the good genetics going.  They have had the same line of pit game here for over 60 years.  a show breeder will know that introducing new genes will introduce faults you never had before.  But that is for the serious breeders only.  My araucanas already have lots of "faults", so I will have to breed selectively for the rest of my life! I don't think I will get to show standard with them, but I have improved them so they look better.  It is very hard to get good araucanas here because people want them for the egg only and have mixed them with other breeds.  Those with good ones hang on to them.

And goodonya for calling your chooks chooks...Chookie will be proud!  

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on January 01, 2010, 10:31:32 am
Appreciate the info there Lone. Are you familiar with Diatomaceous Earth? I hear mostly good things about it, kinda like sugar dusting for mites & then some.

Chookie's a good word for Cindi, she's part chook ya know.  ;)

Happy New Year!


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on January 02, 2010, 10:22:51 pm
Chookie, you guys do make me laugh.  We call them chooks up here too, smiling, I mean the chickens.

Lone, the laws up here about ILT are extremely firm.  If a farm has any report of this disease, all the stock must be killed.  If chickens are taken to shows, they MUST be vaccinated for this.

There is a vaccine up there that is a non-shedding one available.  There was some information I read somewhere, but cannot off the top of my head recall what/where, or really what it was all about, but could find out more, if you required so.  I should not speak too much of it, as I really do not know anything of this vaccine nor this malade.  But it is an extremely bad one, I know that.  You were wise to bring in new earth to your yard, very good of you to do that thing.

The infra red lights are 250 watts.  They can come in clear or red.  Evidently the red colour is so that people are not burned by it.  Sounds dumb, as all light bulbs shed a certain amount of light.  Ken bought me the clear one when my last red one burned out, and it appears to give the same heat.  I suspend the bulb about 24 inches off the ground and that seems to hold the temperature in a very adequate heat, about 90 degrees or thereabouts.  I raise the light more as the chicks age.  At about 4 weeks old, there is no longer that heat source, they are feathered out and do not require it here.  But at the same time, my chicks are indoors in my basement suite right now.   But in spring, when outside in the chicken barns, the same applies, after total feathering the light is removed.  This age is approximate.  Beautiful days, love and live, share, health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on January 08, 2010, 09:21:24 pm
Hello,

JP, I hadn't heard of diatomaceous earth.  I looked it up, and it's probably not easy to acquire here.  While what I have is working I'll probably stick with it, but I'll keep listening out for the diatomaceous earth.  There are so many old remedies for chooks, each with varying worth.  Some people put a couple of drops of kerosene in the water, or condy's crystals.  I'll tell you a very effective one that will come in handy if their breathing sounds a bit mucousy with a simple cold.  Just put a big hunk of vick's vaporub in their beak and around the nostrils, and the breathing usually clears up in a day or so.  If it doesn't, it might be a more serious thing.

Chookie, we are a little behind with the control at shows.  They say "all care but no responsibility", but as someone said, is all care really taken?  When I looked into vaccines, they are really impractical for anything short of commercial use.  If you could please find the information on that vaccine I can see if it is available here.  There is no support for backyard poultry, partly because there is not much money in it for big companies, and partly I think the commercial producers might not support what they might see as competition. Look at the ivomec as an example.  Everyone knows it is used for poultry, but a poultry specific product is not sold.  I have cut down going to shows because of the risk of ILT, and preferably lock them up to breed from when they return from the show.  I wonder also if the judge should clean his hands between handling every bird in the show shed.  You would not like to have ILT.  Here is the official document on it we have here.   http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/27_2740.htm (http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/27_2740.htm)   

What is the usual use for the infrared light?  I'm just wondering where the best place to buy them would be, such as a pet shop or hardware shop?  If the heat is comparable to incandescent globes, then we usually use 100 or 150 watts depending on the weather. 

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: JP on January 08, 2010, 09:33:14 pm
Lone, I buy my infrared lights from a local pet store up to 150 watts. I believe our Home Depots here carry a 250 watter that'll fry you good, if you don't watch it!

I use them for my animals, reptiles mostly. In the home they are good as they don't put out much light at night.


...JP
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on January 08, 2010, 09:44:41 pm
Thanks, JP, we do some dealing with a pet shop who buy birds from here.  I can ask the old bloke if he knows about them.    The other problem we will have in breeding season is the 200 watt incubator globes which we get specially - we don't know yet if they will be taken off production.  It could be a problem if they are.  They occasionally blow and you have to watch the incubator doesn't go off for too long.

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on January 08, 2010, 11:15:11 pm
Right, I spoke to the fellow who is coming up here this evening and he will bring a few examples of heaters to look at.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on January 10, 2010, 11:51:42 am
Lone, I am trying to get information about the non-shedding ILT vaccine for you, been really busy lately, have those beautiful days, with health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on January 27, 2010, 11:28:06 pm
I ended up buying the heating devices the pet shop owner brought up.  It took him 3 hours to get here so I figured that was the best thing.  They are a ceramic heating device, normally used with reptiles.  It is more natural not to have light at night, anyway.  You can turn the heat down if you like.  One is 100 watts, the other 150, which is what we normally use.  They were a bit pricey but should last a long time.  By the time he buys the small birds, we come out pretty square.

We haven't found out what to do about the 200 W globes for the incubator yet though.

After all the cockerels got in with the pullets this morning, I called the crocodile sanctuary, and they will take the offending males off my hands.  There is nothing worse than a hungry crocodile  :)  I will probably take them next week after penning them, if the road isn't too flooded with the cyclone activity around. 

Lone
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: kingbee on February 06, 2010, 08:46:08 pm
So no way of telling how old those eggs are...Think its safe to eat them...

Why not float the questionable eggs in a bowl of water.  Kind of like the old English did in their trials by ordeal.  If they float, toss them out.  If they sink, eat em. Just break one egg at a time into a seperate cup and add them to the omelet one by one so you aren't left trying to fish a bad egg out of the batter.
Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Cindi on February 07, 2010, 11:33:54 am
Lone, I have finally remembered to get some information for you about the non-shedding vaccine for ILT, it is some information copied out of a post in a chicken forum, I don't know if you have any of these same products available in Australia that we have in Canada, but I wonder if this may help your wonderings?  Have that most beautiful day, of love and health, Cindi

Here is a link to the vaccine http://www.intervet.com/ipg/poultry.aspx (http://www.intervet.com/ipg/poultry.aspx)
Its the  LT-IVAX   made by Schering-Plough.

Title: Re: Chicken Chatter
Post by: Lone on February 14, 2010, 02:20:30 am
Thanks Cindy,

That website takes you in circles so you can't tell if it's available in Australia.  Is that the one you put in the eye?  Anyway, I went to the poultry meeting today, and basically the view is that things won't change here with making vaccines accessible for backyarders.  Maybe we do not have the petitioning numbers here, or people are not well enough informed.  I asked someone whether judges could at least wash their hands or change gloves between holding birds, but they didn't think that idea would be accepted by the judges.

Lone