Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: greenbtree on February 13, 2011, 03:32:12 pm
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Things experienced beeks relayed on the forums that didn't sink in.
Location: Iowa
1. Don't try to bring small colonies through Winter, combine them in Fall. Sure you want more hives, but a dead-out in January doesn't do you any good.
2. Wrap your hives in black tar paper. I didn't, and I think some I lost could have made it if I had. What I didn't understand is it is not so much for at night, but during a sunny day it allows enough warm up so the bees can break cluster and move to stores. I had two hives that died inches away from capped stores.
3. Lots of disagreement on this, but too much moisture IS a killer. My hives were too damp, even with the hives tipped forward. My two remaining hives were in dire straights (dead moist bees packed between frames), I added just a popsicle stick to frame edge on top of hive and things dried right up and bees are MUCH happier. One hive I lost had a cluster of dead bees covered in ice. Yet I had this hive tipped forward. I suspect that here in Iowa our Winters alternate between very cold (down to minus 20) and very damp - lots of snow and sleet, thus tipping alone isn't enough.
If I had a mentor I suspect I would have done much better - he or she could of pointed and said "That hive is way too small, it will never make it" or "Here in Iowa you need more ventilation than that." I am joining a local club, hopefully I can hook up with someone.
JC
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If I had a mentor I suspect I would have done much better
I suppose it would matter who that mentor was. There could be 900 mentors on this forum, pick one. It won't guarantee that you don't sustain losses.
Question, do you have an upper entrance, notch in the inner cover? Will you next year?
As far as the rotten bees ... I would pull all the frames of honey and cut out the bad stuff and refrigerate until you get your new nuc.
Where did you get the queen or nuc?
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I know I will still have losses with a mentor. But I hope he or she will clue me in to local condition strategies. I pulled part of the remaining honey and threw it on top of a hive that I really don't want to lose. They were into the sugar block. They tore right into that honey - at least I assume so from all of the scritching, tearing sounds I heard from in the hive.
Three of my hives are from a local beek that was selling his hives, either directly or were descended from them (I did a split, and gave a frame of eggs to a swarm where the queen died.) The rest were and are from swarms and cutouts. The one I gave the honey to was from a cut out and at this point is the most vigorous as far as I can see. Time will tell of course.
You can bet that my inner covers will have notches next year.
JC
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I've just heard my whole life to EXPECT 40% losses in the best of bee yards - a number frankly hard to swallow, I just don't know of any other venture where you would except that degree of loss as inevitable if averaged out.
I know we have a lot of treatments for bees today, I haven't heard of an updated percentage in a long time. I always believed beekeeping to bee one of the most fascinatingly frustrating hobbies anyone can take up. I can only image doing it at a commercial bee yard level.
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>Location: Iowa
I'm not far from you.
>1. Don't try to bring small colonies through Winter, combine them in Fall. Sure you want more hives, but a dead-out in January doesn't do you any good.
True, but in recent years I've been pushing this to have nucs in the spring. Some don't make it but the ones that do really take off.
>2. Wrap your hives in black tar paper. I didn't, and I think some I lost could have made it if I had. What I didn't understand is it is not so much for at night, but during a sunny day it allows enough warm up so the bees can break cluster and move to stores. I had two hives that died inches away from capped stores.
I've tried wrapping and not wrapping (some experiments with wrapping but mostly decades of not wrapping). I came to the opposite conclusion. The wrapping seemed to just keep everything soaking wet all winter. Here's some other people's take on that also:
"Although we now and again have to put up with exceptionally severe winters even here in the south-west, we do not provide our colonies with any additional protection. We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam
"Nothing has been said of providing warmth to the colonies, by wrapping or packing hives or otherwise, and rightly so. If not properly done, wrapping or packing can be disastrous, creating what amounts to a damp tomb for the colony" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor
>3. Lots of disagreement on this, but too much moisture IS a killer. My hives were too damp, even with the hives tipped forward.
And they will be more moist if you wrap... Do you have a top entrance? Letting the moisture out makes a huge difference.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance)
> My two remaining hives were in dire straights (dead moist bees packed between frames), I added just a popsicle stick to frame edge on top of hive and things dried right up and bees are MUCH happier. One hive I lost had a cluster of dead bees covered in ice. Yet I had this hive tipped forward. I suspect that here in Iowa our Winters alternate between very cold (down to minus 20) and very damp - lots of snow and sleet, thus tipping alone isn't enough.
No, it's not. At least not in our climate.
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I have trusted on good look with varroa. I have handled hives with oxalic acid drippling and not according reseached advices.
Last summer my mite load was high. I saw it with naked eyes.
Last autumn I lost 4 lives. Bees just vanished. Mechanism is such that mites concentrate themselves into last brood which ought to be winter bees. Too few winterbees will emerge and nurser bees die during the autumn. So colony just disappeared.
Winter game very early and some of hives are untreated with oxalic acid.
I do so that when snow melts and weather is about 10C, I take brood frames off and concentare them in few hives without queen. I suppose that 3/4 hives are then without brood and then I give a oxalic acid trickling.
To the brood hives I give special treamtment which is a littel bit laborous. I make false swarms from emerged young bees and trickle them and return into queen right hives.
What I learned: Things do not go allways as they should with varroa. Prefer to make more work than trust on good luck.
Like Muhammed said: Tie first your camel and then trust on Allah.
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I don't live in those extra cold wet places, but along the lines of gathering warmth in the winter, has anyone ever tried something like a black plastic (clean) round oil pan over the top of the hive to gather the heat of the sun without trapping moisture? - I've also been thinking pretty often about parabolic sun reflection for different/other applications - has anyone done anything to reflect sunlight to the backs of the hives?
(Keep in mind I'm not making recommendations) I probably wouldn't need these techniques, but I guess out of curiosity and my own edification I was curious to whether those things had been tried.
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I don't live in those extra cold wet places, but along the lines of gathering warmth in the winter, has anyone ever tried something like a black plastic (clean) round oil pan over the top of the hive to gather the heat of the sun without trapping moisture? - I've also been thinking pretty often about parabolic sun reflection for different/other applications - has anyone done anything to reflect sunlight to the backs of the hives?
(Keep in mind I'm not making recommendations) I probably wouldn't need these techniques, but I guess out of curiosity and my own edification I was curious to whether those things had been tried.
Makes no sence. Bees generate their heat at night, in rain, in clowdy weather.
Here in winter the sun does not shine during 3 months.
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I've tried wrapping and not wrapping (some experiments with wrapping but mostly decades of not wrapping). I came to the opposite conclusion. The wrapping seemed to just keep everything soaking wet all winter. Here's some other people's take on that also:
I probably shouldn’t open my mouth here but if wrapping killed the bees with moisture you would never be able to keep bees in a plastic insulated hive because nothing is more water tight unless you wrapped the hive with metal. I do believe the top entrance and notch in the inner cover is essential for ventilation. Granted, I have no real experience to go on.
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I really like all the advice I can get on this forum. If I do a tar paper wrap next winter, I am going to do it with a top entrance or notch to make sure moisture can escape. I also am making some double nuc boxes to try to overwinter smaller colonies. This has not put me off beekeeping, I expect a learning curve. I also figure there will always be SOME losses.
JC
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If you have a mesh floor, don't use upper entrance.
If you have solid bottom, use upper entrance in front wall. Don't lead the moisture between inner and outer cover.
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What Finski is saying above is the advice that saved my hives from moisture....however, I lost my share this year from failing queens that I should have changed out at the end of summer :'(
I now insulate well above the inner cover and plenty of ventilation comes through the screened bottom. Any moisture condenses on the cold outside walls (instead of the insulated inner cover) and drips down and out the screened bottom.
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Any moisture condenses on the cold outside walls (instead of the insulated inner cover) and drips down and out the screened bottom.
That part makes sense to me. Now that I have made 1/2 medium spacers I will try the insulation in the top for next year.
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If you have a mesh floor, don't use upper entrance.
If you have solid bottom, use upper entrance in front wall. Don't lead the moisture between inner and outer cover.
I disagree, I have bottomless hives, which is even more open than SBB, plus a 1/2 entrance in an inverted solid bottom board that I use for tops. I have no trouble with my bees being too cold or moisture forming inside the hive. My hives also face south, the wind comes from the south, and I still don't have problems unless the hives get blown over.
I must admit that with bottomless hives it doesn't matter whether the hive is tilted forward or backward, as long as it's tilted so that any moisture than may forn can run out of the hive via gravity. Bottomless hives also makes the following bit of advice immaterial.
When it comes to venting it is best to ensure that the top vent is above the entrance so as to enduce a chimney effect with the air circulation. Vents to the rear or sides, though beneficial, just aren't as efficient as a vent above the entrance.
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If you have a mesh floor, don't use upper entrance.
If you have solid bottom, use upper entrance in front wall. Don't lead the moisture between inner and outer cover.
I disagree, I have bottomless hives,
OK you do so. But I cannot see why to waste winter food that way.
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If you have a mesh floor, don't use upper entrance.
If you have solid bottom, use upper entrance in front wall. Don't lead the moisture between inner and outer cover.
I disagree, I have bottomless hives,
OK you do so. But I cannot see why to waste winter food that way.
Beleive it or not, the bees use less stores now then when I used solid bottoms and telescopic tops. Lots less condensation within the hive and a significant reduction in hive losses, less than 20% (except for natural disasters, beeyard wise) and some years no losses at all.
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I must admit that with bottomless hives it doesn't matter whether the hive is tilted forward or backward, as long as it's tilted so that any moisture than may forn can run out of the hive via gravity. Bottomless hives also makes the following bit of advice immaterial.
How about making the inner cover sloped so you don't have to tilt the Whole hive.
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Beekeepers have many succesfull habits to over winter hives.
I think that new beekeepers try to over winter too small colonies.
Big colonies take care themselves.
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I've just heard my whole life to EXPECT 40% losses in the best of bee yards - a number frankly hard to swallow...
I'm knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed... I haven't lost any in 5 years (6 colonies). Must be luck or just my location. We do have mild winters here in N Fla.
Of course, since I typed this... I'll probably have a dead hive next week. :shock:
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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On your list of what you learned your 2nd year of beekeeping see how many of the things from year 1 were unlearned. Then on the 3rd year what was unlearned from year 2 and so on. Keep the list long enough and you might find you've learned and unlearned the same things several times.
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We do have mild winters here in N Fla.
What winter there? day +24C and night +9C ?. We have in July that weather.
http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Tallahassee.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Tallahassee.html)
Here is just now -27C and day will be -16C. Snow 65 cm
http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/Kouvola?parameter=4&map=weathernow&station=2830 (http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/Kouvola?parameter=4&map=weathernow&station=2830)
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I only wrap tar paper on the fronts and half way around the sides, with a good solid wind break on the sides and back. With the hives facing south, the fronts get nice and warm with just a little sun, allowing the bees to move a little.
Top entraces on all of them. I've gone out to check them on really cold days with the sun shining, and they are warm to the touch. They are all still strong, so far. I occasionally knock on the side with my ear to the entrance. Sounds like a lot of bees in all of them.
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(http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/BeesFeb14-11005.jpg)
As you can see I don’t wrap, but hang roofing material on three sides and not on the front. It has been said that if you cover the front like I did last year the bees have a harder time finding the entrance when they come back from their out house flight.
This hive is facing NorthEast. By the time the sun gets to the South West position the hive is shaded by the big tree and the woods in the background.
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I cover front side with white geotextile to protect entrance against wind, snow and birds.
So we see, that we do things controversy and bees stand everything.
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We do have mild winters here in N Fla.
What winter there? day +24C and night +9C ?. We have in July that weather.
We also have a very early onset of spring.
Our summers would dissolve you like a popsicle.
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I cover front side with white geotextile to protect entrance against wind, snow and birds.
Do you have a pic of this wrapped hive? If you are covering over the entrance how do the bees make it out unless you have provide them a space or path.
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So - if you tip the hive would it be better to tip it so the condensation runs to the BACK of the hive and away from the bees (Which would probably be clustered on the South front side.)? Have some small holes or a gap in bottom of back for water to escape? I noticed that on the deadouts I had dead bees packed between the frame fronts and the South wall.
Also, if you have a notched inner cover, where is it? Front or back of hive?
JC
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Top/inner cover notch goes on the same side and perpendicular to the bottom entrance, notched side DOWN.
I lean my hives toward the front (just always have?), but I use SBB so it wouldn't matter I guess as any liquid still would have a chance to escape, regardless of which way it was leaning.
thomas
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I cover front side with white geotextile to protect entrance against wind, snow and birds.
If you are covering over the entrance how do the bees make it out unless you have provide them a space or path.
When bees are able to fly outside, I take the shelters off. It happens at the beginning of Marsh.
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Wow, they can't do a poop flight from say NOv to March?
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Acebird; 5-6 (for mine its more like 3-4) months isn't uncommon to have to wait to have a cleansing flight, "IF" your a "Northern" honeybee :-D Especially if to do so means DEATH from cold. Its one reason why Winter bees can outlive their sister Summer bees by 5-10 times, depending on location.
See, just another way that bees and humans are so diferent ;) although we've all met some humans who behave like they haven't had a #2 in quite awhile :) although its not because they can't get to their toilet.
thomas
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Most of Finland is in the latitudes equivalent to Alaska,reaching to the Arctic circle.Southern Finland is farther north than much of Canada.
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Wow, they can't do a poop flight from say NOv to March?
It is Ochtober to March
In North Finland it is to April.
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>So - if you tip the hive would it be better to tip it so the condensation runs to the BACK of the hive and away from the bees (Which would probably be clustered on the South front side.)?
If you have a solid bottom you also have to worry about the water running out of the hive, in which case it needs to tip forward.
> Have some small holes or a gap in bottom of back for water to escape?
I would just tip it forward.
> I noticed that on the deadouts I had dead bees packed between the frame fronts and the South wall.
They are attracted to heat and the sun warms the south side...