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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BjornBee on January 31, 2012, 10:11:27 am

Title: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BjornBee on January 31, 2012, 10:11:27 am
Interesting read.....

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-729706-1-1.html (http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-729706-1-1.html)

Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 31, 2012, 10:32:59 am
Monsanto bought up many family owned seed companies selling open pollinated seeds and dumped the seeds.  It seems they just wanted the distribution channels and/or to get rid of competition from seeds you could save yourself instead of having to buy them every year.  Nothing would surprise me about this company.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: ziffabeek on January 31, 2012, 08:02:16 pm
I agree with Frameshift.  I'm not (really) a conspiracy theorist, but if anything would convince me to be one, it would be Monsanto.  They are too big, too entrenched in government, and most frightening, too silent.  You only read things 'about' them.  You never hear them 'say' anything. 

And in the dictionary, next to morally bereft corporate greed is a picture of Monsanto. 

Just sayin'.

They scare me.  (They seriously do for many reasons.  I don't care what you say about free market, capitalism, and no government oversight, this company is run amok and takes advantage of the system.  And yes, I vote with my dollars.)

(enter Kathyp ;D )

love,
ziffa
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: ziffabeek on January 31, 2012, 08:03:02 pm
But no, I don't really think they are creating a 'super-bee'.  That's silly.

At least I hope it is!  :-P

love,
ziffa

Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BlueBee on January 31, 2012, 08:14:00 pm
CHINAdaily news :?  I wonder if they have any bias?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: SEEYA on January 31, 2012, 08:36:08 pm
Monsanto - nothing but scary! Check out there history with the Soybean! Can ANYBODY plant soybeans, anywhere without infringing on there patents? The way it was explained to me: Farmers don't own the seed they plant, it's licensed like software.
             
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BlueBee on January 31, 2012, 08:41:59 pm
But patents expire at 17 years.  Then mankind can reap the good (or evil) of their work for free. 

That is unless they have gotten the politicians to give them copyright protections on their genes too.  If so, then they’ll keep on reaping $$$$ until long after we’re all dead  :evil:
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: windfall on January 31, 2012, 09:20:46 pm
The genetic modifications they patent become obsolete as the pests and weeds evolve resistance long before they expire; so they just develop a new round of mods and chemicals to go with them, and the cycle goes on and on and on....especially since they push out all competition and destroy alternative stocks/seedlines.

I am with Ziffa and frameshift

I don't know where they are going with their interest in bees, but you can bet it will along the same lines they have demonstrated already.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: hardwood on January 31, 2012, 10:27:09 pm
Brrr...I just felt a chill run up my spine.

Scott
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: Old Blue on February 01, 2012, 01:26:14 am
Monsatin.  nuff said.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: doug494 on February 01, 2012, 10:41:37 am
OK I'm not saying they are saints.

From a business standpoint

Your business sells based on yield
Your product requires pollination by insects (including bees)
There is an unknown disease apparently wiping out these insects (yes it could be a unknown/undesired side affect from your other products, but it is happening)

So now your yields are threatened.  In addition to (hopefully) funding research to determine the cause and cure of this new disease, wouldn't you also spend R&D money to determine if you can develop an alternative way to pollinate?

Now what they do or don't do with the results of that research is a different story, but conducting the research makes sense to me.

Nomex suit is on, flame away.  :idunno:
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: rober on February 01, 2012, 01:28:13 pm
the biggest problem with monsanto's & anyone else's GMO seeds is that they are polluting & destroying heritage seed banks globally. just like bees do not recognize property lines neither do wind born pollens. when these pollens cross onto neighboring crops those crops cross-pollinate & create new hybrids & the seeds produced now share the gmo dna. i mentioned on an earlier thread how monsanto gmo corn mysteriously showed up in road ditches & fallow fields in interior mexico polluting the local corn strains. funny thing is how did that corn get there? no one is growing monsnato gmo corn anywhere near that area. this is happening word-wide. in this country there are farmers growing unlicensed corn strains who save part of the crop for the next years planting. several of these farmers had their crop cross-pollinated with monsanto corn via the wind from neighboring crops. monsanto knowing this then trespassed on those farms to gather dna evidence & sued those farmers for planting unlicensed monsanto seed. i would not doubt anything corporations ( or governments ) due to further their profits or causes.
most governments these days have become branch offices of corporations anyway.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 01, 2012, 03:14:09 pm
I guess the obvious concern is this:  If Monsanto did research and found out that their seed-based fungicide was killing native bees, what would they do?  Would they stop selling the fungicide, or would they develop a (patented) bee that is immune to the fungicide.  If they developed an immune bee, they could actually increase the dosage of fungicide and when it killed all the native bees, they could sell their patented bee to replace the lost pollinators.  Do you think there is any morality or concern for the environment that would stop Monsanto or any other company from doing this?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: bee-nuts on February 01, 2012, 03:41:34 pm
There should be a law against patents on plants that have existed and evolved naturally.  Monsanto has gone across the world gathering wild plants like corn and putting patents on them so others cant grow or collect the seed.  pure insanity.

Farmers have no ability to stop cross contamination of genetics from a neighbors plants by the wind or insects.  Monsanto knows this will occur and that their genetics will Contaminate free genetics varieties and others and that there is no viable solution.  Monsanto is guilty of Market fixing.  If farmers seed is contaminated by Monsanto's patented genetics and Monsanto does not wish to give the farmers an exemption to harvest and use the seed then they need to pay for the lost revenue/income the farmers will suffer now and into the future.  So if the farmer is now unable to collect and plant the seed this year and plant it the next and repeat the process the following year and so on, Monsanto is liable for damages for the remaining life of the farmers.  So if the farmer is 40, Monsanto should be liable for 32 years of lost revenue If the man were to live to an average life expectancy.

Farmers have no means of preventing MONSANTO'S GENETICS from contaminating their seed.  

Monsanto essentially rapes farmers plants, gets them pregnant, then sues them for having offspring that possesses their genetics. They refuse to pay support, medical expenses etc.  If that were not insane enough, they sue the farmers for not getting abortions and put them out of business.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 01, 2012, 06:00:24 pm
Monsanto's goal is to rule the world by any means necessary, and they realized long ago that controlling food (seed) is one key to that goal.  I wouldn't put it past them to desire a super bee that would displace all other pollinators so that the control gets closer to reality.  After all, US tax payers would very likely be paying for the research at some University, so for a monster like Monsanto its a win, win.

Yeah I agree, there ought to be laws that protect us from these reptiles, but we must never forget; THEY CREATE THE RULES!

However, In many places around the globe Monsanto is feeling great 'push-back' from local communities of people willing to 'stand up' to their criminal intentions (if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything).  

India to name one, has had some great success keeping Monsanto GMO seeds at bay in small agricultural areas dependant on 'saving' their seeds (for many generations) and the word is spreading globally, even on bee forums 8-).  

As with many issues on this scale, America lags way behind, due a lack of understanding and our blind defense of criminal capitalists who are 'too BIG' to fail' and too BIG to go to jail.  That's right Monsanto is one of those.  

IMO; They'd make an awesome villian for the next James Bond Movie 8-)  It would be sooooo believable for Bond to eliminate them before they eliminated us.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 01, 2012, 08:36:20 pm


IMO; They'd make an awesome villian for the next James Bond Movie 8-)  It would be sooooo believable for Bond to eliminate them before they eliminated us.

So if I understand this correctly, you envision Bond and his lady love tied up and being attacked by Monsanto SuperBees(TM).  Just before they succumb to anaphylactic shock from the bee venom, BjornBee (well, he is the OP)  breaks down the door and sprays Bee-Quick on the doomed 007.  As Bond is carried out on a stretcher, BjornBee and the lady, who is actually a double agent working for Monsanto,  retire to Bjorn's honey house for a debriefing.....   Did I get that right?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: windfall on February 01, 2012, 09:36:19 pm
I thought this was old news but just in case....

Monsanto bought Beeologics last fall. I don't fully understand the technology but I believe they (beeologics) are trying to use RNA in feed supplements(remebee) to transmit immunity to some of the viruses bees face.

The obvious questions are:
How deeply do the patented insertions go; are they a "dead end" treatment or do they become incorporated into the reproductive genome?
Are they going to drift into the stock of non-users much like pollen contamination of crops?
What sort of unintended consequences are possible with this sort of genetic tampering?

Perhaps it will be a tremendous boon to beekeepers, solving all sorts of problems. I hear it is a great ride when you make a deal with the devil...until it is time to pay your dues.

If someone here does have a good understanding of this research (in trials for a while I understand) or can point to some reasonably unbiased source of info...I am interested.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 02, 2012, 12:16:28 am
Monsanto bought up ...family owned seed companies selling open pollinated seeds... you could save yourself instead of having to buy them every year...

What ever cranks your tractor.  But come on, FAMILY OWNED SEED COMPANIES?

Perhaps the reason these family owned seed companies are no longer in business is because they were (like you said) selling open pollinated seeds you could save yourself.  There is not a whole lot of demand for something you can get for free is there?  But I guess you get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 02, 2012, 12:37:51 am
What ever cranks your tractor.  But come on, FAMILY OWNED SEED COMPANIES?

If you are surprised, I guess that's a sign of the extent to which we have become the Corporate State.  Do you think that only giant, publicly traded corporations have anything of value to offer.  As late as the 1980s, most seed companies were small, family owed operations.  Many of them offered quality open pollinated seed and they maintained a huge genetic diversity.  Big agricultural and pharmaceutical companies bought out those small seed companies and destroyed the seed stocks.  They just used the customer lists to peddle a narrow range of hybrid major crop seeds with little genetic diversity.  Those companies are using seeds to control access to food.  I think that is a very serious matter and it cranks my tractor pretty hard.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 02, 2012, 12:57:52 am
... As late as the 1980s, most seed companies were small, family owed operations.  Many of them offered quality open pollinated seed and they maintained a huge genetic diversity...

Since we are speaking about Monsanto lets get our terms in order. What do you consider open pollinated? I'll grant you that the company retailing the seeds at you local garden center or even many farm suppliers MAY be or MAY have been a family owned operation but for years and years the people producing and wholesaling those seed were not a "family" owned businesses any more that the convenience store down the street bottles and refines the soft drinks and gasoline they sell.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2012, 09:45:11 am
The companies that sell open pollinated or 'heirloom' seeds is actually quite small.  I know of no conglomerates.  Most of those that I'm aware of remain 'family' owned and run.  Several are small co-ops, some are even nonprofits. 

Most consumers simply enjoy the 'variety' these (sometimes ancient) seeds provide, rather than the often substandard hybrid seeds (especially lacking in flavor IMO) created through hybridization.

The vast majority of seeds bought at local retailers are hybrids, including many from Monsanto or its subsidiaries, of which there are many.

That all said, even those who regularly purchase open pollinated seeds rarely 'save' any of the seeds themselves for the next season.  Saving seeds even on a small scale is not all its cracked up to be and is not easy or something you just go in to without some self educating and preparation, much like beekeeping ;).

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 02, 2012, 11:40:41 am
What you say is true NOW Thomas.  But prior to the 1980s, farmers were able to buy open pollinated seed in large quantities and they did save seed year to year.  And there was much more diversity in the main stream markets.  Saving seeds is not hard and is certainly easy for farmers.  The "big" seed companies prior to the corporate buyouts were still family owned and were much larger than the mom and pop sellers of open pollinated seeds today.  What you are saying is correct, but it is the result of the decimation of family owned companies selling open pollinated seeds.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2012, 12:34:03 pm
I can sure agree with some of that FRAMEshift.  The corporate takeover of family farms during the 80's and 90's (and even continuing today) took a lot of the wind from our collective souls IMO.  I believe the elimination of competitor seeds was an after thought to the takeover, but I could be wrong on that (I just don't want to give them any credit, heck NO credit ;)  A sad part of our shared, yet mostly ignored history, also IMO. 

I've been saving 'heirloom' seeds since the early sixties, starting with some nicotania (tobacco) supplied by my Grandmother, and each year we try to save a little more, lots of veggies and flowers, some we believe are likely not available anywhere else but our gardens  :).   And we're big supporters of the 'seed savers exchange' who've been around for a while.

The 'ease' of seed saving largely depends on the seed being saved.  Many are actually quite difficult, especially some of the bi annuals and those that require a stratification period. 

For example, corn seed is considerably more simple to save than tomato seed.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 02, 2012, 04:07:13 pm
 And we're big supporters of the 'seed savers exchange' who've been around for a while.

I joined Seed Savers Exchange in 1984 and was a member for 20 years.  I even visited the farm in Decorah, IA once.
Quote
For example, corn seed is considerably more simple to save than tomato seed.
Well, I guess it's a matter of what one means by easy or simple.  I save about 25 varieties but I do avoid biennials. Tomatoes are quite easy if you let the pulp sit for 3 days to develop a fungal coating.  Then just wash through a strainer.

Eggplant is a little finicky and some of the japanese veggies are impossible to start in a tray.   I guess you and I  have a lot in common Thomas.   :-D
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2012, 04:53:27 pm
Likely more than just seeds and bees  8-)  Tomatoes are a favorite of ours for sure w/ so many great varieties.

Was that 25 varieties of corn?  :shock:  Very impressive FRAMEshift. 

We can only keep up w/ one or two corn varieties per season and think 'that's plenty  :-D  When the kids were still home we would grow a lot more and spend a couple weeks hand grinding most of it down to a meal we would then use for 'johnny cakes' (w/honey or maple syrup) all winter long, yum, yum.

Sorry to take this off topic to the rest  :oops:

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: CapnChkn on February 03, 2012, 02:19:42 pm
Surprisingly patents on genes were, until lately, impossible to get because of the very problems everyone's talking about here.  I have very little information on the subject.  I did see a documentary about it, including a Canadian farmer who bred his own seed for 20 years.  He noticed the Canola around the telephone poles that he sprayed with Round-Up, a Monsanto product, wasn't dying.  He thought it was just adaptation from the years he spent spraying in the same spot.

It happened to be pollen blown in from another field somehow.  I seem to remember trucks carrying Canola to the processing plant.  Monsanto tested his seed, found their gene and the farmer was forced to destroy 5 tons of seed he had kept for those decades.

The practice is completely unfair, it's ridiculous to assume wind and pollinators will adhere to the law.  In Mexico they have simply grown corn from saved seed without worrying about what Monsanto thinks.  All in all the answer is in using licensing.  Monsanto is also developing a suicide gene so the seed cannot be saved.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 04, 2012, 08:39:17 am
Suicide genes?  That's what hybrid seeds contain CapnChkn, suicide genes.  You can save them but they will NEVER reproduce like the parent.

Monsanto's goal as stated above, is total control.  Cargill is up there too, lets not forget them ;)  

On a related subject I was talking to an old friend from the State Department the other day and he was telling me that a lot of the dollars currently supporting the opposition to the KEYSTONE PIPELINE (you know, the 1700 hundred mile 'gift' to BIG OIL) is coming from (now get this) Monsanto, who feels the pipeline could potentially threaten their profits in the bread basket of America.

Cool huh? Two of the worlds richest conglomerates going at it over their share of profits in middle America.  Wouldn't you all love to see what's going on behind those closed doors?

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: SEEYA on February 04, 2012, 09:48:53 am
>> You can save them but they will NEVER reproduce like the parent.
     The 'suicide gene' is a fatal birth defect, the seed sprouts and dies.

Ask our friends from 'Down Under' what happens when you mess with genetics. Rabbits were introduced (Colonial era) and quickly became pests. 30(?) years ago, a virus was modified to introduce a birth control gene into the feral population. Then, oops, it killed 90+% of the rabbits.

England: (a few years ago) had an outbreak of anthrax(?) and it was an escapee from a laboratory.

ONE OF THESE DAYS: Some scientist, or laboratory, is going to release ( intentional or not) something that will make the 'Black death' look like a mild rash!
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 04, 2012, 10:04:15 am
Its likely already spreading accross the globe.  CLG NEWS has been reporting on a 'leak' out of Europe for a few weeks.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 09, 2012, 02:24:46 am
... I was talking to an old friend from the State Department the other day and he was telling me that a lot of the dollars currently supporting the opposition to the KEYSTONE PIPELINE ... is coming from... Monsanto...

You think Monsanto could be worried about loosing sales of dent corn and rapeseed inputs (like seed, pesticides, etc) to corn and canola growers who then turn around and sell their crops for the production of automobile fuel.  And less you think that I am not in the vest pocket or anyother pocket of Monsanto I will specify now that the corn to ethanol and rapeseed to diesel boondoggle burns as much petroleum energy as it it produces in renewable energy. Maybe more.

As for Monsanto suing farmers, the last time I looked, ALL Monsanto's seed customers were farmers.  If Monsanto did not produce seed products that farmers wanted, needed, and valued, no one would buy a single grain of GM corn from Monsanto.  Furthermore, if Monsanto treated its customers like some of you have been convinced by politicos that they do, no North American farmer would allow a Monsanto seed or seed salesman on his land.  Monsanto has way to much cash invested to treat customers or potential customers like that.  Step back and objectively listen to and read what is being said and written on the subject, but most of all don't let some politico dude or dudet with a hidden agenda jerk you around by the nose and make you nod your head, clap your hands, and yelp like a trained seal.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 09, 2012, 07:09:13 am
"Step back and objectively listen to and read what is being said and written on the subject, but most of all don't let some politico dude or dudet with a hidden agenda jerk you around by the nose and make you nod your head, clap your hands, and yelp like a trained seal."

Now, kingbee, follow your own advice. If you think millions upon millions of acres chemically treated year after year to allow only ONE plant form to grow is good for this ol earth, you haven't read enough to be the expert you'd like everyone to believe you are.....

Joel
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 09, 2012, 09:22:10 am
The defense of Monsanto and their ilk would be laughable if it were not so misplaced, misguided and dangerous to us all. 

Yeah we should all believe that 'farmers' are telling Monsanto what kinds of seeds to produce  :roll: . 

I think its more like Monsanto telling farmers, "if you want our backing, if you want to sell your crop, then you'd better plant our seed."

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: SEEYA on February 09, 2012, 03:19:19 pm
>> if Monsanto treated its customers like some of you have been convinced by politicos that they do, no North American farmer would allow a Monsanto seed or seed salesman on his land

Can you spell - M O N O P O L Y ?

>>"if you want our backing, if you want to sell your crop, then you'd better plant our seed."

OR ELSE !
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 09, 2012, 04:10:07 pm
"the last time I looked, ALL Monsanto's seed customers were farmers."

The last time I looked, monsanto has bought up so many small seed company's, only they really know their customer base. They likely have a huge customer base of unsuspecting gardeners too now.

Joel
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 09, 2012, 04:57:34 pm
They have several subsidiaries.  Most of the little seed packets sold at retail stores are Monsanto or Cargill in origin.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 09, 2012, 09:23:46 pm
As for Monsanto suing farmers, the last time I looked, ALL Monsanto's seed customers were farmers.  If Monsanto did not produce seed products that farmers wanted, needed, and valued, no one would buy a single grain of GM corn from Monsanto.  Furthermore, if Monsanto treated its customers like some of you have been convinced by politicos that they do, no North American farmer would allow a Monsanto seed or seed salesman on his land.  Monsanto has way to much cash invested to treat customers or potential customers like that.  Step back and objectively listen to and read what is being said and written on the subject, but most of all don't let some politico dude or dudet with a hidden agenda jerk you around by the nose and make you nod your head, clap your hands, and yelp like a trained seal.
They do actually treat their customers this badly. It is well documented. My husband was in a meeting with Monsanto seed salesman, who had tacked on enormous "technology fees" to each bag of corn and soy seeds. When asked why, the salesman said "Because we can."

It is very hard for my husband to find non-GMO seed any more. That's not HIS choice. That's Monsanto, Cargill and others buying out the little guys and developing a monopoly.

As for your argument that Monsanto has too much $ invested to treat people badly, are you serious? The bigger a corporation gets, the less it needs to worry about the little guy. Do you think the health insurance industry or the tobacco companies or Big Oil are all concerned about treating their customers with dignity and kindness?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 09, 2012, 09:27:16 pm
And, by the way, I find this truly terrifying, the thought of the nation's/world's future food source (seeds) in the hands of a monopolizing company. They absolutely, positively have their own pocketbook as their primary interest, no matter how much their marketing campaigns try to tell us they're trying to save the world.

I'm an organic veggie grower and had to contact every single company I order from to verify that their seeds are not GMO. It's not like when Monsanto buys up vegetable seed companies it advertises that on the cover. They're certainly well aware of their incredibly horrible public image.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: bee-nuts on February 10, 2012, 04:00:45 am
Kingbee.  The farmer has about as much choice as we do at the gas pump.  You can hate big oil companies but you have to have gas in your car, and oil in the furnace dont you?  Farmers need seed in their field to grow things too.  But they cant save money buy saving their own seed any more cause Monsanto genetics will blow in from the Neighbors and their seed will be contaminated.  Next Monsanto will be their suing them for theft and into bankrupt court.

Monsanto essentially has the deck stacked so they cant lose.  They win every hand.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 10, 2012, 07:27:35 am
"I'm an organic veggie grower and had to contact every single company I order from to verify that their seeds are not GMO."

Good you care enough to make sure....Just FYI, I had a guy contact me from back east this winter needing some buckwheat honey. His regular source told him that the farmer had planted a hybrid buckwheat and his bee's wouldn't touch it.

Joel
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 10, 2012, 07:30:00 am
Excellent commentary on this thread by some knowledgeable folks with first hand experience.

For those who want to limit the authority of the FDA........or is it EPA  ;) ....well both the FDA/EPA may as well be run by Monsanto (it is, it is) and their kind so limit away  :-D  They'd like nothing better.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 10, 2012, 11:25:21 am
The number of Monsanto executives who have gone into Federal Gov't agencies is simply amazing. Granted, this is not an unbiased source, but here is one look at the issue: http://peopleforethicalliving.com/fda-usda-monsanto-pharma-gmo/ (http://peopleforethicalliving.com/fda-usda-monsanto-pharma-gmo/)

As an organic farmer, my reasons for despising Monsanto:
1. They are patenting our future food. I understand they have great expense and time, and that means a patent is financially necessary. But I don't believe seeds should be patented. Or, if it is to be, there should be tremendous oversight and regulation to be sure that patented seeds remain a tiny part of the overall seed population.

2. I don't trust GMO. And I don't trust a company that fights so hard to keep GMO from the food labels. Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO. And now Monsanto is working extremely hard to get GMO alfalfa into organic the dairy industry. Yes, Monsanto is and has been pushing hard to weaken the standards of organic to allow GMO.

3. They claim a caring for humanity, but their business practices, including suicide genes, monopolies, farmer lawsuits, etc., would not appear to meet their claims.

4. ETA: GMO crops contaminate organic and other crops. If enough GMO is planted, it is actually possible that it could eventually eliminate ALL other non-GMO seed varieties.

"President Obama has unbelievably chosen to approve two biotech crops, Monsanto’s Roundup Ready genetically modified (GMO) alfalfa and Roundup Ready genetically modified (GMO) sugar beets. They will be planted as early as this spring, despite widespread acknowledgement that these crops are certain to contaminate both conventional and organic farmers’ non-GMO crops. The deregulation of GMO Roundup Ready alfalfa could lead to the genetic contamination of all conventional and organic alfalfa within five years."

My conventional farmer husband's reasons for despising Monsanto:
1. They are disrespectful of farmers. Their website says they have one word for why they're in business: "Farmers." But their lawsuits, prices and attitudes would indicate otherwise.

2. Their products DON'T WORK! DH says that they work in JUST the right conditions, but farming rarely has exactly the perfect conditions that a certain variety of seed wants. When he has used them in the distant past, they simply didn't live up to their promises, despite a huge cost disadvantage.







Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 10, 2012, 12:35:40 pm
Excellent job Luvin honey!!  8-)  The congressional/corporate 'revolving door' needs a KING SIZE wedge asap and a guard with a club big enough to actually go after the criminals.

While many of us have ample reasons to mistrust Monsanto (see above) and their kind, a lot of the blame can be placed at the front (and back) doors of the WTO who actively and explicitly pursue the interests of BIG AG (BIG BIZ) around the globe.

thomas
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 11, 2012, 08:21:35 pm
... Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO...

You think so?  Have any of you kept up with any of the cases of food born illnesses contacted from fresh produce?  No?  Well most of these outbreaks result from eating raw organic fruits, greens, and veggies.  One of the requirements for labeling produce is that it must be fertilized with animal (usually farm animal) feces or composted plant matter. 
If you want your food to be safe, inspect it for animal (or in some cases sewage treatment plant sludge) before you shovel raw organic food into your pie hole.

Now I see nothing wrong with organics as long as the consumer employs a little of that most uncommon thing called common sense.  But I am not prepaired to hold my breath until the man or woman on the street gets an education about the relative dangers and benefits between so called "organic" food and food produced using other methods. 

IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!  Just my two cents worth.

The following are 5 methods to control armyworms in wheat, oats, corn etc that are part of a well known European environmental groups’ efforts to promote organic agriculture in the Third World.
http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:PQ7UjAlGXbgJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,1 (http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:PQ7UjAlGXbgJ:scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=0,1)

Page 15, Physical methods (to control army worms)
1. Deep ditch:
Plow a deep ditch and keep it filled with water, if larvae are found to be moving
towards your field from adjacent fields. This will prevent larvae from transferring to your field. They will drown if they try.
Another method is to dig a deep ditch with vertical sides to trap larvae and prevent them from crawling out. Holes with a diameter of a fence post should be dug every 10 meters apart in the ditch. Larvae will congregate in the deeper holes where they may be crushed.
2. Pitfall traps:
Make pitfall traps. Pitfalls are the best means of collecting crawling insects.
3. Bring herds of cattle, sheep, or goats back and forth across affected areas to step on the worms.
4. Beat worms with sticks and twigs.
5. Hand pick the larvae and feed them to chickens.
Also see:
http://www.greenthumbarticles.com/article/Armyworms-a2839.html (http://www.greenthumbarticles.com/article/Armyworms-a2839.html)
Armyworms are not technically worms. They are the …caterpillar stage of a… moth. They feed on turf grasses and crops to include alfalfa, corn, beets, clover, and flax…. look for caterpillars 1”-2” in length, ranging in color from tan, to green, to dark gray… If you have… signs of …armyworm damage, spray …1 oz. dish washing soap per gallon of water… If armyworms are present, they will come to the surface to avoid the spray soaking into the soil.

Once they come to the surface, armyworms can be killed by dropping them in a bucket of boiling water or a pan of bleach. This is the… organic way to control a minor infestation…

Now I ask you, is it any wonder then that many people in the Third World think we in the First World are out to kill the people living in Developing Countries?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BjornBee on February 11, 2012, 09:29:43 pm
We went from a comment discussing eating organic as an effort to not eat GMO crops, to a discussion of armyworms with the rationale of a field guide from some group in Germany.  :roll:

Isn't that like discussing or comparing apples to oranges? Of course if you don't want to eat GMO, one should seek out organic produce. Does that mean organics don't have issues or concerns? I would imagine every method has issues. But how do you support in some twisted way or rationalize GMO crops, and justify attacking organic produce for another issue altogether, while taking exception to a field guide giving advice on armyworms?

That....is some huge dots being connected.

By the way...How many people in third world countries think we are trying to kill them? I personally think we should quit handing out dollars and let them fend for themselves. But I keep hearing I am wrong for thinking that. But Bill gates and the GMO multi-billion dollar industry will certainly come to their rescue. Afterall, with global warming coffers drying up, food industry control is the place to have your money for the next 10-20 years or so.  ;)

So what we are left with, is folks like Bill Gates who thinks that third world countries should be controlled by GMO companies like ADM, DuPont, and Monsanto.

Here is the path I suppose some think is the proper approach. http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=227D7E07509381609DBF1873A2E6E3B3 (http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=227D7E07509381609DBF1873A2E6E3B3)

Spread the GMO and neonicotinoids around in the third world countries. Don't practice organic methods. Don't do what some think might be better than the farming we have here now.

I am always amazed when beekeepers themselves are against any efforts to do better than GMO and corporate mono-agriculture farming with environmentally harmful chemicals. I guess we will never learn.  :roll:
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: bee-nuts on February 11, 2012, 11:13:44 pm
Im sure bill gates feels the educated folk can make better choices for the poor 3rd world folks can themselves.  Im sure in his mind the best way to feed them is GM crops that are drought hardy and such but what he don't realize is that they are put into consensual slavery once they convert to the GM seed.  
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 12, 2012, 12:45:03 am
... We went from ...discussing eating organic as an effort to not eat GMO crops, to a discussion of armyworms...

The intent of quoting the environmental group in question is to impress upon the minds of some how totally ridiculous the anti-GMO rhetoric has become.  Besides, agriculture is not the well spring of human civilization and it never was, warfare is.  Making war on ones neighbor is how mankind has fed himself since the dawn of time.  You can never build a peaceful society on the jutting ribs or bloated stomach of a hungry child, warfare is the result every time you try.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 12, 2012, 08:35:02 am
Such confusion and misguided thought permeates this site I don't know why I even bother.  You're all so smart it just kills me  :roll:

If some of us 'really' want to stop helping the third world and just let them 'fend for themselves', perhaps the folks who feel this way should also begin demanding that the corporate world, BIG OIL, BIG AG, BIG BIZ, WTO stop stealing (helping themselves to) their resources and start paying the people up front instead. 

The Masters:  A much harder target indeed, w/ many more protections than an average citizen, but well worth the effort and considerably more deserving of our scorn and condemnation than the poor.

IMO; Adopting such a position would represent the 'beginning of the end of poverty' in the third world, but the powers that be along w/ their tools and fools will not let it happen w/out a fight.   I'm pretty certain that explains conservatism as is practiced these days. 

The conservation of 'the way it is' for those at the top.

Just a thought  ;).

t
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: SEEYA on February 12, 2012, 09:56:02 am
>>If some of us 'really' want to stop helping the third world and just let them 'fend for themselves',
 We give the third world 'chump change', tell them how to run there economies, and then sell them food (& stuff) cheaper than they can produce them there selves. (We:I am talking about the developed world). Is that helping?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 12, 2012, 11:46:07 am
"Have any of you kept up with any of the cases of food born illnesses contacted from fresh produce?  No?

Hand up high hoping kingbee is looking...... I HAVE I have!!!!!

"Well most of these outbreaks result from eating raw organic fruits, greens, and veggies."

Wrong again!!! Do you keep up with what you type??? Eating something that isn't poisonous doesn't cause anything but, taste bud satisfaction, appetite suppression/relief, nutrient intake, and sometimes weight gain. And you like us to believe you know what you are talking about?????

Seems many of these cases the offending bacteria was shown to have came about from feral hogs waste in the streams and creeks used for irrigation, and produce wasn't washed sufficiently. You still want to blame the organic produce kingbee???
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 12, 2012, 12:30:14 pm
"If you want your food to be safe, inspect it for animal (or in some cases sewage treatment plant sludge) before you shovel raw organic food into your pie hole."

Kingbee, out here in farm country they have been spreading their animal waste for centuries. I take some good ol organics from my cows and chickens and shovel some onto my garden plot annually. Do you know about anything on this subject,.... that is right anyway????

If you really want your food to be safe, buy organic and wash it well. You can wash chemicals off your foods fairly well, but it's pretty hard to get it out of your chemicaly treated food when the root takes it into the plant.  Take off those dark glasses/blinders and re -read that kingbee and let it soak in. Or are you of the mindset that cow poop is still cow poop after it degrades into the soil and it is absorbed through the plant root and the roundup is healthy or gone???

"IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!

Earth to king bee, Earth to king bee. It's about eating better by not eating man made and applied toxins to our food, and working toward a healthy long life. Nothing more. Sorry you feel that way, it make you appear insecure. I sure hope it's not from a heavy metals toxicity. Your favorite fertilizers and treatments like to accumulate/build up in your system and wreak havoc. You'll see.
 
"Just my two cents worth."

weren't worth half of that I have to say.

Joel

Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 12, 2012, 12:59:33 pm
 X:X X:X Loving that man.  We always have to be on guard for the 'experts'  best to trust our first instinks  ;).

t
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 13, 2012, 11:29:47 am
... Buying organic is the ONLY way to be sure you're not eating GMO...

You think so?  ......Now I see nothing wrong with organics as long as the consumer employs a little of that most uncommon thing called common sense.  But I am not prepaired to hold my breath until the man or woman on the street gets an education about the relative dangers and benefits between so called "organic" food and food produced using other methods. 

IMHO, eating Organic is about a childish warm and fuzzy feeling, meaning feeling superior about our inferior selves, by finding something to hold over the heads of others.  Its like shouting, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE MY ETHICS CAN BEAT UP YOUR ETHICS!!!  Just my two cents worth.

Now I ask you, is it any wonder then that many people in the Third World think we in the First World are out to kill the people living in Developing Countries?

It's not a matter of what I think. It's a fact that GMO seeds are not allowed in organic ag. So if you want to be guaranteed to not eat GMO, you have to eat organic. Of course any system can have cheating and abuse.

Your comments about fecal contamination have nothing to do with GMO. It's a shame, and organic needs to be held to great food safety standards, but probably not to the point of irradiating everything to be sure it's sterile. Kind of defeats the purpose of organic.

As for your comments about common sense, to me you sound like someone without much exposure to organic production of food. I spend a fair amount of time with people who grow food. They appear to me to be ethical, genuinely caring about health and environment and honest.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 13, 2012, 11:34:36 am
One more thought for anyone who thinks Organic is warm and fuzzy, new fangled, bunch of crap bologna for left-leaning liberals and overly wealthy Americans:

Organic is the way food HAS ALWAYS BEEN GROWN, with the tiny exception of the 1940s until the present time. There is nothing new about it. The post-war industrial complex needed a place to dump all the chemicals left from war, and they started turning it into fertilizers and ag chemicals.

So, organic is old. Very old. It's the way people have always fed themselves until after WWII.

And, Kingbee, actually spend some time in ag before you talk like you understand it all. I am surrounded by conventional agriculture. The neighbor next to me used to spray his fields at least a dozen times per year, until he died of brain cancer in his 60s. There is a HUGE difference between organic and conventional, and lack of chemicals is just one part of that.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: CapnChkn on February 15, 2012, 03:53:58 am
Organic is not what you may describe.  It has been known for thousands of years that certain amendments would increase yield, but wasn't known as we understand Organic Agriculture now days.

True composting wasn't invented until just before WWII.  Sir Albert Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Albert_Howard) in India noticed farmers were healthier in the long run than farmers he saw closer to the cities.  He theorised the farmers closer to the metropolitan areas were forced to buy taxed artificial fertilizers from the empirical british run supply.  It wasn't that the farmers in the countryside thought it was a better practice, rather it was too far and too expensive to travel.  Artificial fertilizers are like eating starch, sugar, and fat to get your nutrition, so the theory states the plants were in poor health, and as a result the nutrition of the farmers growing them was lacking.

Farmers in history and those days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting#History) would take all the animal and human wastes, dump them in the fields, and plow them in, in the spring.  He realized nutrients were being lost to the elements, and devised a system where wastes were piled in a wide flat pile, about a foot high, so it would receive rain water and oxygen.  The result was then spread around and plowed in.

Before science was acceptable, fields were used for a year, allowed to lay fallow for 2 or 3 years to allow nutrition to build up from the action of Azotobacter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azotobacter#Nitrogen_fixation) storing mineral nitrogen.  Earthworms were thought to be "Baby dragons," and were shunned outright.  Rich gardeners in ancient cities would buy the dried residue of sacrificial altars to stir into the soil of their flowerbeds.

Problems that arise from modern farming derive from bad sanitation and practices instead of use of waste materials and chemicals to enrich soils.  For example, he worst parasitic nematode in industrialized countries, the intestinal roundworm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascariasis), is caused by ingesting the eggs by swallowing soil that has come into contact with feces.  Farmers in poor countries unknowingly "finding an ass-high stump" while out in the fields is a really good reason to wash your vegetables from the grocery before you make the salad.

Modern organic practices are meant to manage this.  Sewage sludge is treated first, manures hot composted, food and garden wastes processed through the guts of voracious litter worms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_%28annelid%29) and insect larvae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetia_illucens#Uses_in_composting.2C_decontamination.2C_or_as_food_for_animals).  This may sound like a reason to escape "old broken" practices, but industrialized methods bring on a whole new can of worms, so to speak.  Rock dusts, for centuries, have been mined to spread on arable land to increase fertility, but the nutrition is locked until an external action, biological, chemical, or mechanical, releases it.  Chemical fertilizers cannot replace all nutrient needs of the crops, and can actually interrupt the natural action in the soil.  One cause of "Blue Baby" syndrome (acquired methemoglobinemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methemoglobinemia#Acquired_methemoglobinemia)) is nutrient pollution.  Nitrates leaking into drinking supplies.

Don't start "pounding the pulpit."  Each side has its pros and cons.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 15, 2012, 08:14:17 am
Excellent discussion.  All have made rational points and articulate arguments.

The problem I personally see w/ so-called organic occurred w/ its legal 'adoption' by large commercial producers who corrupted the very definition of organic.  It no longer passes the smell test IMO. 

Personally I trust little that wasn;t grown outside my own back door and harvested by me and mine.

That all said, up to 90% of ALL food borne illnesses could be prevented by just WASHING our food FIRST.

t
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 15, 2012, 11:08:06 pm
This story was posted today on Slashdot.

http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/02/15/1956248/300k-organic-farmers-to-sue-monsanto-for-seed-patent-claims (http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/02/15/1956248/300k-organic-farmers-to-sue-monsanto-for-seed-patent-claims)
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: GoodWeather on February 15, 2012, 11:42:07 pm
I'm not sure what they are doing with bees but.....

My thinking on this subject is that if chemicals may be hurting the bees they should just be taken off the market. The bees shouldn't be tampered with so they can tolerate the chemicals.

   I hope they don't infect the beautiful bees with some genetic hocus pocus.   I admit this topic is a bit over my head but I am concerned about the subject. I love Honey Bees and don't want a big corporation to hurt them or stockpile the rights to them.   I hope the worries about this company are just beekeeper paranoia and they don't plan to try to do what they are doing with seeds to bees.
 
                  Please Monsanto if you read this, don't hurt Honey Bees.

                                                                             Good Weather
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 16, 2012, 04:35:59 am
... Kingbee, out here in farm country they have been spreading their animal waste for centuries. I take some good ol organics from my cows and chickens and shovel some onto my garden plot annually...

So do I.  In fact I add horse manure, my daughter's cat‘s litter, a smidgen of commercial chicken litter, a little sawdust and some pine needles to my garden.  But if I am growing food in this manner I prefer to cook it.  If I am growing a root crop like radishes, carrots, or onions that may or will be consumed raw I grow these veggies in a separate bed and broadcast or side dress the bed with some good old fashion Triple 13.

... organic is old. Very old...


So is the ancient tradition of burning witches at the stake or the time honored practice of bloody pogroms against helpless people of the Hebrew persuasion. Being old, very old, or even very very old doesn't make any of the above practices right. Any more than being new, very new or even very very new makes any of the things we are speaking about wrong.  This is called an analogy, I am not accusing you of any of the things I mentioned.

... Kingbee, actually spend some time in ag before you talk like you understand it all. I am surrounded by conventional agriculture...

So do I, I have conventional agriculture on all sides of me.  In fact I was raised in conventional agriculture by conventional farmers on a conventional farm, and I have lived cheek in jowl with conventional agriculture all my life, most of it in cotton country no less.  In case you folks up there in the Dakotas don't plant very much cotton these days, the cultivation of cotton required (past tense) THE most intense and prolonged use of chemical insecticides of all crops along with some of the most intense physical cultivation of any row crop on the face of the Earth.   Now that the work of controlling or managing agricultural insect pests is being preformed by GMOs like Bt cotton and corn or Round Up ready cotton, corn, soybeans and canola makes no till agriculture possible, I am once again able to keep bees without a lot of drama.  
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 16, 2012, 04:07:50 pm
... messed up on editing :(
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 16, 2012, 07:41:49 pm
... organic is old. Very old...


"So is the ancient tradition of burning witches at the stake or the time honored practice of bloody pogroms against helpless people of the Hebrew persuasion."

Rocks are old too and have about as much to do with ancient gardening practices as your straw man arguments. Is your occupation a comedian????

" Being old, very old, or even very very old doesn't make any of the above practices right."

 But one of them is still going on with lots of followers, and I bet we ALL agree the other programs should have gone away..

  "Any more than being new, very new or even very very new makes any of the things we are speaking about wrong.  This is called an analogy, I am not accusing you of any of the things I mentioned."

I nailed it.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 16, 2012, 08:02:35 pm
The ol' straw man keeps coming up :) I was going to point that out about the witch burning comment also.

My point is not that it is good because it's old. There was a flavor of "new-fangled, unreliable, unsafe organic" going on in the threads, so I was merely pointing out that it is not new at all. The marketing of it is new.

As for my comment about kingbee's exposure to ag, I apologize for that. Perhaps your immersion in conventional agriculture has left you not as well informed about organic agriculture.

My conventional farming husband used to have a lot of vehement attacks on organic also, until he actually learned about it and spent time with some of the farmers. He still has reservations about its feasability on a grand scale (I don't), but he respects it now and insists we eat as much organic food as possible (as if he had to twist my arm).

Getting back on topic, even as a conventional farmer he hates GMO and even more despises Monsanto for all the reasons I listed earlier.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 17, 2012, 04:04:53 am
... My conventional farming husband used to... vehement attack... organic [agriculture] also... He still has reservations about its feasability on a grand scale (I don't)...

I respect anyone who grows their own organic food and I am awed by their commitment. 
As for the large scale feasibility of what many Americans with $100 manicures call organic agriculture, which is a destination they wish to impose on society at any cost more than it is a personal commitment that requires hard work, please explain the benefits of organic food to the child in the third graphic in this link who is patiently waiting to learn first hand about the benifits of "organic" eating.
http://abodwadkar16.blogspot.com/2010/10/global-issues-avni-3rd-world-farmer.html (http://abodwadkar16.blogspot.com/2010/10/global-issues-avni-3rd-world-farmer.html)

Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: splitrock on February 17, 2012, 07:03:26 am
"I respect anyone who grows their own organic food and I am awed by their commitment."

Really now? A couple posts ago, and eating organic, raw was killing people according to you.

"As for the large scale feasibility of what many Americans with $100 manicures call organic agriculture, which is a destination they wish to impose on society at any cost more than it is a personal commitment that requires hard work, please explain the benefits of organic food to the child in the third graphic in this link who is patiently waiting to learn first hand about the benifits of "organic" eating."

Yawwn!!!!!!
 
What do you have against hundred dollar manicures now??? Huh???? Who is saying they want to impose their eating habits on anyone else??? Well???

If you only have strawmen for arguments, and don't have any answers, I see kingbee, you just change the subject and tug at the heart strings????

you could pass for a government trained and employed left wing comedian.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 17, 2012, 10:04:32 am
In the reading I've done, starvation seems to be more of a distribution/unstable governments problem than lack of food. We have as many obese people in the world as we do starving. In fact, our large-scale nonorganic (or even large-scale organic) ag is devastating the lands and economies of children all over the world. "Real" organic is small, local, sustainable.

I don't see anyone "imposing" organic. You simply buy it, or you don't. Nobody's being forced with organic. We ARE, however, being offered almost nothing but GMO and nonorganic in school lunches, grocery stores and restaurants. I think it's hilarious to think that organic is being force fed to anyone. While it's the fastest growing sector in ag, it is still only a small portion of the overall ag pie.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 17, 2012, 03:38:27 pm
luvin honey-you are on the money.  It is 'primarily' an issue of distribution, usually by corrupt Governments (is there any other?), whenever it comes to starvation or even famine.  Its been used as means of control for centuries and remains perhaps the most misunderstood element of the so-called IRISH POTATO FAMINE (or any famine if properly examined). 

That sad bit of history was all about who was going to 'own' and control the LAND, as it always is.   The Irish People lost. 

They were in fact starved in their own land where bounty was plentiful (for the LANDLORDS).  A little known fact about the Irish famine is that Ireland actually remained an exporter of produce (FOOD) throughout this period.


"the more things change the more they stay the same"

t
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 17, 2012, 03:52:46 pm
I didn't know that about Ireland, TBeek. It certainly is believable! And mirrored today when huge ag companies take over land in foreign countries, employ the natives for a pittance, and the natives lose their land, income and identity.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 17, 2012, 04:18:41 pm
Careful; you'll become a Henry George convert (a geoist) with thinking like that  ;)

t
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 17, 2012, 06:52:14 pm
... I don't see anyone "imposing" organic. You simply buy it, or you don't...

If the above is the reality of those who are pushing the hardest for organic agriculture (and I am not saying that you are one of them) then how come one of the first things they mention is forcing all non organic or GMO foods to self identify with the moral equivalency of a big bright yellow star of David (like the Nazis did to the Jews) so the organic Brown Shirts can easily identify non organic food and the customers of non organic food, to make it easier for organic Storm Troopers to launch a campaign of intimidation or to socialy shun these customers?   

It is my firm belief that when the facts proves insufficient to win the day, the side that is most in danger of loosing starts tossing around the old "straw man" line of unreasoning in an effort to silence the other side or to at least create enough smoke so that they can withdraw from the field of battle in some semblances of good order and with their loosing arguments intact.  Stick with the facts, examine your facts, examine my facts, then only use the facts that pass inspection to determine the truth.  Any takers? 

Besides, my railing about $100 manicures is only a drop in the bucket when compaired to the flood of crocodile tears that's been poured out by those who denounce this greedy company here, or that greedy farmer there when speaking about GMOs.  My advice is, "Physician, Heal Thyself!!"  In other words, I will forgo denouncing $100 manicures if the organic crusaders will stop denouncing the people they denounce.  How about it?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BjornBee on February 17, 2012, 07:20:59 pm
Are you for real?

Why can't folks denounce companies and industries that they are odds with? Folks did a fine job detailing some of the issues they have.

Who cares if you denounce 100 dollar manicures? You really think that is how it works? You come to a bee forum and bring up manicures, and use that as an exchange to ask for silence from a group of folks who oppose what you seemingly have an issue with.

I know Monsanto and a few other biotech companies have been known to hang out on certain forums, and pay employees to scan the blogs, and to offer confusing and opposing views from anybody that says anything denigrating to their positions.

I didn't think I would happen on a bee forum, but I guess it could.

Read your second paragraph. Then take your own advice. Supporting your own position is far different than attacking someone elses position.

I agree luvin honey, I see no one "Imposing" organic. But I do see opposition (and trying to stop) the discussion at hand. Makes you wonder.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 17, 2012, 07:23:46 pm
(to kingbee, as Bjorn's and my posts crossed in cyberspace :))
I just don't see it that way at all--the identifying GMO.

GMO is new. I am not convinced it is safe. I am not convinced it is dangerous. I simply don't know. I would prefer to not consume it until there is a LONG track record for it.

As for the OTHER issues with GMO--contamination of other species, etc., I'm firmly against it.

Frankly, I don't care what you say about $100 manicures. I seriously cannot make any sense of that comment at all. I will continue to denounce any company that tries to patent the seed supply and forces so many other seed producers out of business that they have a monopoly on the main crops grown in America. I see that as exceedingly dangerous. I haven't seen corporations looking out for the good of the people for a long time (ever?).

Kingbee--I still think comparing labeling GMO foods to the Holocaust is ridiculous. Now if I were suggesting putting stars on the PEOPLE who consume/grow GMO foods, I would agree with you. I'm not suggesting that. I personally consider it a right of the consumer to know where their products come from, how they're grown, etc.

When I sell soap, I label it. I know all about my ingredients and freely offer that information to my customers. It is clearly their choice to choose to buy or not. Some won't buy soap made with lard. That's their choice, and I owe them that information so they can make an informed decision. I want to be able to make informed decisions about the food I feed my family. For now, the only way to be free of GMO is to grow/buy organic.

I don't see anyone trying to silence you, KB. In fact, people have responded to your posts over and over. You're simply being asked to be reasonable and pertinent in your arguments. Comparing labeling GMO food with labeling Jews in the Holocaust is NOT (in my opinion) a reasonable argument.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 17, 2012, 07:55:20 pm
In the reading I've done, starvation seems to be more of a distribution/unstable governments problem than lack of food... 

Congratulations Ms Honey.  I think that you have found a fact that both of us can in theory agree on.
But if the hunger problem is a problem of distribution and it is not a problem of supply or production, why is the most vocal segment of the organic food lobby advocating for a small area of distribution and why are they calling for more local food consumption, especially organic food when the solution would seem to require a more wide spread distribution of all food?  At face value these two positions seem incompatible, help me out here.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 17, 2012, 09:28:04 pm
Other countries export food when their own people go hungry. I call that a distribution problem in which local food should be fed to local people.

The only comment I have to make about starvation and GMO is that Monsanto claims GMO technology will help feed the hungry of the world (please research their practices in poor nations) when we don't have a shortage of food. We have corrupt/war-torn countries and distribution problems.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: SEEYA on February 18, 2012, 10:18:01 am
>>Other countries export food when their own people go hungry. I call that a distribution problem in which local food should be fed to local people.

Be careful! You could be branded a socialist for statements like that. :-D

 :soapbox:
Ireland - Potato famine
The English land lords evicted most of their Irish share-croppers. Wheat was more profitable, partially because it was less labor intensive, and partially because the English Parliament had enacted protectionist policies regarding grain crops. The Potato Blight effected ALL of Europe. Why did the Irish starve? England, to protect the price of wheat (Rich land Owners), would not allow the importation of grains! The Irish starved to keep the rich, rich!
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: luvin honey on February 18, 2012, 10:22:19 am
I know next to noting about the Irish potato famine, but I would wonder if a tremendous lack of ag diversity (not only in potato varieties, but in types of food grown overall) was part of the problem. And of course in times of drough, blight or other terrible ag problems a country should import to feed its people, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: T Beek on February 18, 2012, 01:12:33 pm
No, it had nothing to do w/ lack of diversity.  Remember, these were farmers 'before' the advent of monoculture, and as such they grew a wide variety of crops simply by habit, but when the potato crop failed 'IT" was blamed for the hoards of starving people instead of the real culprits.

Fact is, in some cases up to 90% of what was produced (and not hidden well enough) was taken to satisfy the (taxes?)greed of the LANDLORDS and nothing more.  At the time the Irish were considered expendable, even less than human by many.

Henry George dedicates an entire chapter to the causes of the Irish Famine in "Progress and Poverty" (available FREE on line) and is well worth the read for anyone interested in this period in history, if only to see how little things have changed since then.

Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 18, 2012, 07:05:54 pm
... Artificial fertilizers are like eating starch, sugar, and fat to get your nutrition...

We need to be carefully about our analogies before we submit our posts.
If as you claim farming with the help of artificial fertilizers is like us eating a diet of starch, sugar, and fat, then what is eating PETA's vegetarian diet of whole grains, fresh fruits, and nuts?  It sure ain't Chopped liver!!!

It would seem to me as well as to anyone with a lick of common sense, that the above health food diet of whole grains, fresh fruit, and nuts, is full of starch, sugar, and fat to the exclusion of most other nutrients.  Some nuts are 40% fat.  Fruits may contain twice that much sugar by weight once they are preserved by Sun drying.  Not to be out done, whole grains contain a whole lot of fat as well as starch that our bodies must turn into sugar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin)
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: BjornBee on February 18, 2012, 07:45:11 pm
Don't sweat it Capnchkn, most of us got what you were talking THREE DAYS AGO!   :-D
 
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: CapnChkn on February 18, 2012, 11:00:23 pm
(http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/pictures/misc/xmasmile.png)
Yeah Baby!  Happy Birthday!  WOOOO!!!  Tastes like Chicken!
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 19, 2012, 02:06:45 am
... Why can't folks denounce companies and industries that they are odds with?...

I am only trying to make my view points known or clear as you can see by reading my posts.  You are free to do the same. I have never tried to prevent you or anyone else from expressing your ideas.  I do however rebut ideas that I feel are flawed by resorting to the facts.  I apologize if that discomforts you.

It is the duty of each of us to point out faulty reasoning, yourself included. 
Not one of us has a lock on the truth, myself included. 

So attack my reasoning by using the facts.  I shall perform the same service for you. That is as far as I intend or as far as I need to go.  If you need to go farther than the facts to defend your beliefs, then I suggest that you re-examine your beliefs, because they may not be worth defending. 

If however, anyone feels the need to attack me as a Monsanto plant, then I feel that the anti GMO arguments are already a few bricks short of a hod before we start the discussion. 
http://www.heyokamagazine.com/hod%20carrier.jpg (http://www.heyokamagazine.com/hod%20carrier.jpg)
Are we in agreement?
Title: Re: Monsanto - What do you think?
Post by: kingbee on February 19, 2012, 03:52:27 am
... GMO is new. I am not convinced it is safe. I am not convinced it is dangerous. I simply don't know. I would prefer to not consume it until there is a LONG track record for it...
Fine, there are hundreds and hundreds of organic choices available to you or to anyone else at the local grocery store, just in case your home garden comes up short.   

... As for the OTHER issues with GMO--contamination of other species, etc., I'm firmly against it....
No one is for contaminating anything, quite the opposite.  But are there any FACTS that state that GMOs contaminate anything?  If there are I fail to find them.  There is this one fact that no one who opposes GMOs seems willing to admit.  Before Bt corn or cotton came on the scene it was quite common for farmers to spray their crops multiple times with dangerous chemical pesticides in order to control insect pest.  In one of your posts you mentioned a neighbor farmer who you came close to claiming  died from brain cancer as a result of exposure to chemical pesticides.  The flip side of that coin is that this man may still be living if GMOs had arrived sooner.  I don't think that you are happy that he died, but would you trade his life for fewer GMO crops in your neck of the woods?  I am betting that his family would not.

... I will continue to denounce any company that tries to patent the seed supply and forces so many other seed producers out of business...
The facts are that Monsanto has never sold a single seed to anyone anywhere.  They do license their gene splicing technology to other seed companies both local, national, and international.  The seed companies that you have been told that Monsanto is forcing out of business are doing quite well because they now have a product, Monsanto’s GMO seed, that is very much in demand.  Besides Monsanto's paten for Round Up Ready soybeans expires in 2014.  After that Round Up Ready beans will be in the public domain and you, your husband, even Old McDonald will be free to save and replant Round Up Ready soybeans. They will be free.  What is wrong with free?

There are perhaps seed companies that failed to or that declined to hop aboard Monsanto's gravy train, and these seed companies may have been left behind in the dust of those that are licensing Monsanto's technology These first companies may drive the laggard companies out of business but Monsanto won't.  If the backward companies try and steal Monsanto's paten then that is a GMO of a different color.  But a seed company would be crazy to do that because they would have to keep their mouth shut about it and not advertise the fact to the world that their price for Monsanto's GMO technology was a steal. :-D 

... Kingbee--I still think comparing labeling GMO foods to the Holocaust is ridiculous. Now if I were suggesting putting stars on the PEOPLE who consume/grow GMO foods, I would agree with you....
Refer to the first part of my post.  You are free to eat all the organic food you desire or can hold.  All organic food is GMO free food.  Like there is no GMOs in organic food, nada, non, zip, nien.  What more is there to wish for other than slapping identifying symbols or labels on nor organic food like the Nazis did to Jews????

... I'm not suggesting that. I personally consider it a right of the consumer to know where their products come from...
Then let them eat organic, read the above but when ever in doubt resort to the facts.