Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: super dave on October 11, 2007, 06:22:57 pm
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Condensation prevention
Hi all
In the past people have talked about condensation in the hive over the winter months – does any one have any methods for absorbing the build up of humidity in the hive or does it go away on its own—maybe paper towels on the top of the upper frames – what have all of you tried
Thanks
dave
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a small top entrance works the best
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>>does any one have any methods for absorbing the build up of humidity in the hive
You do not want to absord humdity/moisture build up in a hive, you want to avoid it.
To that end top entrances and SBB do the best job of venting any possible condensation to the outside of the hive.
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thanks for the info-- time to get back to the wood shop to get crafty
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>a small top entrance works the best
That's the main thing. If you really want to do more (which is probably not necessary) you can put a piece of Styrofoam on top of the hive and weight it down with a brick.
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Follow-up question:
Does wrapping your hive effect the amount of possible condensation? I've read from a number of posts that some members have wrapped their hives in the winter. Will it cause any more possible condensation?
What to use to wrap?
Regards,
UtahBees
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With proper upper ventilation, wrapping should not make a difference. Without proper ventilation, I suppose wrapping could make it worse.
Regular 15lb tar paper is what is commonly used. It helps draw some of the suns heat into the hive and allows the bees to move to new stores. Of course there is the more expensive wrap that the beekeeping suppliers sell.
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>Does wrapping your hive effect the amount of possible condensation? I've read from a number of posts that some members have wrapped their hives in the winter. Will it cause any more possible condensation?
In my experience it didn't cause more condensation IN the hive but it caused it between the felt and the hive and that was very hard on the equipment, being wet all winter.
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I am really questioning this thing I hear about people wrapping their hives. Wonder how many people really do this?
I would like to hear from some of our forum members that live in really really cold areas. Who wraps their hives?
I know that bees can live in extremely cold climates, bees generally do not freeze, they die from wetness in their hives. Dampness is their death. If they are cold, they simply cluster more tightly.
Perhaps wrapping the hives will make it easier for the cluster to move around to get food stores. I really would love to hear some responses about this issue of:
To wrap or not!!!!
I know in our climate, we do absolutely not wrap our hives.
Have a wonderful day, best of this excellent life. Cindi
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I have never wrapped a hive in my life, I've never found it necessary. For those that I've observed do it in my area, they've had a greater winter loss than those who didn't wrap. I never took the time to really look into why that would be but I think it would have something to do with retained moisture--either in the hive or between tar paper and hive.
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Hey,
I think it really depends on your winter climate.
Here in Saskatchewan, Canada the winters are long, cold (av. -20°C) and very dry.
Before wrapping became in vogue keepers just restocked every spring but now w/the side effects of importing pests and diseases that aren't local as well as faster starts in the spring around here either the hives are kept indoors between -5°C to +5°C or wrapped.
The wrapping materials spans from tarpaper to insulation and plastic.
I am trying 2 techniques w/2hives. One insulated winter and summer w/1-1/2 in. styro lining the inside (all six sides) of the hive and just the bottom entrance w/a telescoping cover that has 1/4in play on all four sides and 1-1/2in. styro followers (TBH's). The other is 3/4 in wood const and insulated top and bottom w/1-1/2 in styro also bottom ent. and 1-1/2 in styro followers.
Let you know how it went
cheers
peter
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I am really questioning this thing I hear about people wrapping their hives. Wonder how many people really do this?
I would like to hear from some of our forum members that live in really really cold areas. Who wraps their hives?
Cindi,
For your reading pleasure, particularly check out the UPDATE section at the bottom.
http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html (http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html)
I use to wrap my hives in tar paper prior to using external heat. I thought it helped as I did see stronger build up and earlier activity in wrapped hives.
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Robo, thank you, that was some nice reading.
The site you cited originates in Orillia, Ontario, which is around the 45th parallel. Quite cold.
My area is about the 49th parallel, much milder.
It sounds surely like the information that this fellow gives signifies that wrapping his hives has worked well for him. That is wonderful.
Do you heat all your colonies with the nite light? (how many?). I recall you saying that you use these for heat addition. I do believe that additional heating for the colony would without a doubt bring about earlier brood rearing. That is why I would be interested in learning more about heating, not wrapping.
I haven't ever seen of hives wrapped in our area. We are so moist here that I think surely there would be extreme issues with wet hives. Maybe not, but I think so.
These are all interesting thoughts. Have a wonderful and beautiful day in our great world. Cindi
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Do you heat all your colonies with the nite light? (how many?). I recall you saying that you use these for heat addition. I do believe that additional heating for the colony would without a doubt bring about earlier brood rearing. That is why I would be interested in learning more about heating, not wrapping.
Yes, I use two 7-watt night lights on the bottom board. They are turned on when the temperature goes below 20F and on full time starting February. This year I'm instrumenting my hives with temperature sensors and will monitor the interior temps. I've also switched to polystyrene hives, so that should make a big difference too.
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I wrapped my hives once and was 2 for 2 that year. The next year I didn't and lost the hive. I don't blame the loss on not wrapping. I blame it on a goofy warm winter. Comparing the "wrapped" year and the "unwrapped" year, I would have to say that I noticed more condensation in the wrapped hive. BUT...that being said, we had more snow/rain during the wrapped year than the unwrapped year.
What did we learn from all of this? Who the h3ll knows? :roll:
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Yes, I use two 7-watt night lights on the bottom board. They are turned on when the temperature goes below 20F and on full time starting February. This year I'm instrumenting my hives with temperature sensors and will monitor the interior temps. I've also switched to polystyrene hives, so that should make a big difference too.
Anyone else out there heating their hives artificially? It seems I remember Michael Bush mentioning using aquarium heaters in his nuc boxes?
Kev
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I used the Terrarium heater under a queen bank and it worked nicely. I've used a small space heater set to about 50 F down the back of nucs all lined up:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/OverwinteringNucs1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/OverwinteringNucs2.jpg
If my back wasn't out, I'd do something similar this year...
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Maybe Robo can post some pics of his setup.
Michael, sorry to hear about your back. Back pain is the worst.
Kev
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Maybe Robo can post some pics of his setup.
I don't have any pictures handy, but I'll try to take some this weekend if weather and time permit.
Rob...
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I use two 7-watt night lights on the bottom board.
I've also switched to polystyrene hives, so that should make a big difference too.
My experience is that 7 W is too much under the winterball in polystyrene hive. I have used 3 W on side wall.
I ave used too 15 W terrarium heater cable which is 13 feet long and it goes over bottomboard giving to several hives about 3 W .
You notice that 1 feet is about 1W . You may put in store hives side by hive, and then put into hive 3 feet loop via entrance.
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Yes, this will be the first winter with polystyrene hives and I am concerned with the 7watts being too much. That is why I will control them by the internal hive temp.
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It is easy to notice what is right temp under the winterball. Wen you light he inner cover, and ball is dispersed, it is too much for winter hibernating.
Strange is that I have not met nosema in electrict heated hives and number of dead bees is really small.
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Perhaps heating cold air entering the hive dispels enough moisture to help prevent it?
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Strange is that I have not met nosema in electrict heated hives and number of dead bees is really small.
I have noticed the same since you turned me onto providing electric heat.
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i would like to see some pictures of setups, it will help me with some ideas i have in mind for this up coming winter
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My experience, I have related this several times in our forum talks, so you may be getting sick of the story, but I am a rambler and a'ramblin' I will go.
Last year (2006) I went through the season with 8 colonies (or so, can't quite remember exact number). I lost all of them except for one because of neglect with varroa treatments (and swarming too).
I had one little tiny Carniolan hive that went into winter, I didn't even think it would make it. Upon reading posts on the forum by Finsky about his use of a terrarium heater in the hives to help with weaker colonies come through the winter, I purchased one. Approximately $35.00. So....money spent, that is OK, I am an experimentor.
I gave this colony this 15 watt heater placed between the screened bottom board and the solid bottom board. I was using a screened bottom board that is called "varroa nator", a plastic screen that sits over the conventional solid bottom board.
This colony came through the winter. It was a colony that I really did not think had a hope in blazes of coming through alive, so I was going to try anything.
THis is the colony that grew like gangbusters this season. It was my colony that I had to make a cut down split from, (probably should have split it several more times), it was the colony that swarmed, I caught that swarm (on September 6, unusual for such a late swarm) and they are still going gangbusters. This swarm that came from my Carniolan colony even had a frame of capped brood the last time I looked, which was about 1 week ago. All the other colonies had absolutely no brood whatsoever and the brood nest was backfulled with sugar syrup. Still going gangbusters!!!!
I cannot praise use of the extra heat on a colony that may need some extra warmth enough. Have a wonderful and beautiful day, in our great life. Cindi
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hmmm...so cindi are you going to try it again this year, and use it with your strong hives?....going to by a heater cable and run it in my hives
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So,
do you need to provide heat all winter,or could you maybe heat the last third of winter to stimulate the colony pre-spring?
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How do you keep the wires dry? I'd be worried about snow piling up and shorting out the connections. Or do you tuck the connection in the slot between the boards, too?
Do you run the heater all winter long, or just on the most brutally cold days?
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I plug my lights into an extension cord, elevate it off the ground (on a rock) and put a bucket over it. Stays nice and dry and has never tripped the GFI. In previous years, when using wooden brood chambers, I had mine set to come on when the temperature went below 30degrees. Once February came, I left them on full time. This year I have switched to polystyrene hives, so am setting up to turn them on/off based upon the temperature in the hive.
I believe Finsky turns his on after the first Spring cleansing flight.
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I left the terrarium heater on all winter, that was only because the cluster was so tiny, they did not have a hope in blazes of keeping things in their home warm enough to survive. This is what I believed anyways, it still could have been a wrong thought. I have no intention of using any heating in the colonies this winter. I believe that I have entered the wintering season with strong enough colonies that they can keep themselves warm.
We do not live an extremely cold climate as so many of our forum friends do. We are usually above zero (in celsius or farenheit) until January, where we may have a couple of weeks of freezing temperatures. We have intermittent freezes from October 31 to March 31, but nothing that is prolonged.
My information and experience may not be relevant to the more southern central areas.
Again said, I only used the terrarium heater because I had such a terribly weak and small colony. I hope this information will help and clarify some thoughts. Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great life. Cindi
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Isn't the heated germinating pads used in starting seedlings in nurseries pretty much the same thing as a terrarium heater? Seems that would work just as well and may be a little cheaper.
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Brian!!!!! Hey, now you have me on a mission, that is on my "to do" list tomorrow. I have used the heating germinating pads in the past, but discontinued their use because I thought it too expensive for my little nursery business. I used warm water for keeping them moist, basically similar to heating pads. The number of seedling that I would have had to provide heating pads for would have been ridiculous, so I never used it. But....I bet, it they are of a suitable watt they would be excellent, and far much cheaper. Onto to checking out the catalogues.........tomorrow.....Have a wonderful and beautiful day in this great life. Cindi
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Maybe Robo can post some pics of his setup.
Kev
Here ya go -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0
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I wounder what the ideal inside temp would bee ??????
If its to warm wouldn,t it be worse then no added heat????
the kid
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If you get it too warm, they are more active and consume more stores. They are also more likely to fly when it it too cold and die in the snow. You want it just warm enough that they can move to new stores. It is really beneficial in February when they start raising brood. By providing the extra heat, they can raise more brood.
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>I wounder what the ideal inside temp would bee
Anything over 50 F is too warm. Anything under that is acceptable, but 30 to 40 F is probably ideal. If it gets over 50 F they will break cluster. At 30 F the cluster can still move to stores well and won't get stuck anywhere and won't need a lot of stores to keep warm.
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>I wounder what the ideal inside temp would bee
Anything over 50 F is too warm. Anything under that is acceptable, but 30 to 40 F is probably ideal. If it gets over 50 F they will break cluster. At 30 F the cluster can still move to stores well and won't get stuck anywhere and won't need a lot of stores to keep warm.
Michael, I find this bit of information you are sharing to be very interesting. But I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around what you are saying. I may ask you if you could elaborate a little more on what you say about the internal temperature of the hive.
I may elaborate myself on my queery. Our temperatures in the wintertime are varied, but I am thinking that our average temperatures (and I will use F) would be around 40-45 F, varies alot, but usually not too much colder than that, because of the rainy climate. We can have hard freezing for a couple of weeks in January, and that is common, but not usually before or after this time. Your comment suggests to me that the bees in my particular area would be able to move to their food stores easily for most of the winter here and not starve because they could not reach it. Did I get this information correct? Have a wonderful and beautiful day in our life. Cindi
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My bees will be out flying at the mid 40s F
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my seed starting heating mats have a probe with a thermostat but i dont think it can be set to less than 70F.
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My bees will be out flying at the mid 40s F
But that would be outside temperature, not the temperature in the hive.
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Maybe Robo can post some pics of his setup.
Kev
Here ya go -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0
Doesn't the light shining inside the hive 24/7 bother the bees?
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>Michael, I find this bit of information you are sharing to be very interesting. But I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around what you are saying. I may ask you if you could elaborate a little more on what you say about the internal temperature of the hive.
Wow! I answered this somewhere, but it's not here...must be on some other thread now confusing people...
I am talking about the temperature outside the cluster in the corners of the hive.
>I may elaborate myself on my queery. Our temperatures in the wintertime are varied, but I am thinking that our average temperatures (and I will use F) would be around 40-45 F, varies alot, but usually not too much colder than that, because of the rainy climate. We can have hard freezing for a couple of weeks in January, and that is common, but not usually before or after this time. Your comment suggests to me that the bees in my particular area would be able to move to their food stores easily for most of the winter here and not starve because they could not reach it. Did I get this information correct?
They can get stuck when the temps get sub zero F. At -10 to -20 the cluster is pretty much static. I might be able to move some if it lucks out and picks the right direction and they have no brood. But at 30 to 40 F the cluster can act pretty intelligently and find stores pretty well. Even if they are stuck on brood they can usually send out a "finger" from the cluster and find some stores.
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Wow! I answered this somewhere, but it's not here...must be on some other thread now confusing people...
Here it is
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11718.msg78659#new
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Maybe Robo can post some pics of his setup.
Kev
Here ya go -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0
Doesn't the light shining inside the hive 24/7 bother the bees?
I guess not, they make no attempt to block it with propolis. In fact, the queen moves right down to lay eggs as close as possible.
I guess it is no different than an open-air colony that are closer to the polar regions that have 24 hour light in the summer.
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Electrict heating is quite expencive if it is on whole winter. Just now we got frost. Nights are - 7C - -10+C.
This time hive spend about 1 kg/month sugar. Normal hive doesn not need extra heet here in my climate.
Bees have here cleansing flight in the first half of March. It means that they stop now flying and are in winterball 5 months.
I install heaters after cleansing flight or if I start to feed then with pollen patty in the beginning of April. I heat hives about 2 months.
I have ower wintered 2 frame colonies and they do well with 3W heater. That colony has only value of queen and it is vain to try normal hive from that 2 frame colony.
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Here is installation of 5 frame colony and it has heating whole winter. 5 frame colony is critical size to keep colony healty here.
Wall restrict the space of hive and heater is on empty side
(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/tiny.jpg)
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Here ya go -> http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0
Thanks for those pics. They answered a lot of questions about shielding, etc. This has been a particularly interesting post.
Would you be willing to share the results of internal hive temps with us? What are you using to monitor those temps? I'm thinking about the lights for February idea to jump start brood production. I have a SBB that I'll have to figure out how to deal with.
One final question on colonies getting stuck without stores. Is it very low daytime highs that are worrisome? So if daytime temps get into the 30s then they can move. But not if they're in the 20s?
Kev
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WOW ;) >if you could elaborate a little more on what you say about the internal temperature of the hive.
Well, it's the temperature inside the hive but outside the cluster.
>I may elaborate myself on my queery. Our temperatures in the wintertime are varied, but I am thinking that our average temperatures (and I will use F) would be around 40-45 F, varies alot, but usually not too much colder than that, because of the rainy climate. We can have hard freezing for a couple of weeks in January, and that is common, but not usually before or after this time. Your comment suggests to me that the bees in my particular area would be able to move to their food stores easily for most of the winter here and not starve because they could not reach it. Did I get this information correct?
Basically they may not be warm enough to totally rearrange the stores at 40 F but the cluster can easily find the stores and move to them. At -20 F they can't move at all. They get stuck, especially if there is brood. Yours could still get the cluster stuck on brood, but at 40 F the cluster can send out "fingers" to find the stores.
On a sunny day, I have seen mine take a cleansing flight in the 40s. But they go right back in. Upper 40s on a sunny calm day I've seen them fly more. But the books all say that's wrong.
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It was in the bee club thread (reply#47 coinsides with #42) i also need that recipe for honey ice cream :-D RDY-B
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Would you be willing to share the results of internal hive temps with us?
Hive - cluster temperatures are well documented in internet. What we can learn about it? Perhaps nothing.
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1134069490
I nursed bees 40 years without knowing hive temperatures.
But after taking into use electrict heating, I found the importance of warm. Now I may accelerate 3-fold spring build up with heating + pollen patty.
It means that insulation and ventilation + sunny spot whole day are awfully inportant to bees in spring.
And notice - night temperature is what rules the development of colony, not sun+day's highest temp + tar paper. Even human use to warm their homes at night - not during day.
Early spring build up makes to me extra yield month June from early start.
But still bigg hives and yiled are very diffrent matters. You may have 5-6 box hive and it is empty if flowers do not give nectar.
To get honey you must have big hives + splended pastures (move).
To get early yield you need much enough old foragers in spring =early start. All wintered bees will die before new yield start = early start to get enough new foragers and nurser bees.
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Would you be willing to share the results of internal hive temps with us? What are you using to monitor those temps?
Sure, I added details of the monitoring and control to the other post
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0 (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11721.0)
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One final question on colonies getting stuck without stores. Is it very low daytime highs that are worrisome? So if daytime temps get into the 30s then they can move. But not if they're in the 20s?
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That is why I turn the lights on/off during the whole winter based upon temperature. When we get a week or so cold spell, I don't worry about them getting stranded away from stores.