Confused on brood amount...please help

[atthelake22]

Hello all, been a while since I have been in here. Been researching and reading all posts and trying to become more knowledgable on beekeeping. As you know my husband and I have "inherited" 19 hives from my father who ran a heck of an apiary. I have studied his notes as those of you who have helped me before know already.
 Now I have a question that I just can't seem to figure out. Okay here is the scenario, we had 3 swarms in April and captured and successfully housed them all, found the queen and fed them until stable, and now they are doing well. I was so afraid that I had lost a hive but the 3 swarms just created us 3 more hives instead!! I was so happy over that. We don't know which hive it 2 came from though for all hives have a queen, and all seem as populated as before (well there are a few that seem less populated depending of course on the time of day that we are in the hives)

 However, now I have a difficult situation I think...one of the swarm boxes has numerous bees, and we saw the queen a week ago, she looked very young and smaller than the other queens in the established boxes, however, she was there and we were ecstatic since it was my first capturing of a swarm!!
BUT now, just today, we inspected the hives in the lot for queen cells (as we are doing every 10 days) and checked out this box of new bees just to see how they were doing. It seems there is plenty of pollen being gathered, and there is honey (for we put in a frame of honey for them along with feeding them from hive top feeder when establishing them) and there are plenty of bees that is for sure...they have plenty of room to expand and are drawing comb on new foundations, but we also put already drawn and cleaned out frames on the hive too.
The problem being, I haven't seen anything but spotty brood cells. I haven't seen where she is laying eggs. Is there a time limit (I know that it takes time) but when should I be expecting her to be laying brood???

I sooo don't want to lose this hive for it was a killer to catch (up in a tree of course and in the fork of it about 20 feet off the ground...but we did it!!and I loved it!!)
 anyway, if I see a box that has little brood, but a queen and I know that queen is a good queen or a new queen what can that mean?? The nectar flow has definetly started in my area but should i be feeding 2 to 1 so that she will produce more brood??? i am totally lost on this one, I don't get it.

Also, found one other established hive with a NEW queen also that has little and I mean LITTLE amount of brood in the frames. :roll:   What can cause this and is there something I can do to help them??
 I know daddy used to put frames from other hives (that had been put in the freezer for a while to assure no wax moth larvae etc) into some hives..should I be doing that?
OR should I put a frame from a hive with good and abundant brood into the ones that are spotty and not seeming to do well
or should i focus on the queen and assume she didn't have a good mating flight or is defective somehow??? I am new at the queen thing as with everything else in beekeeping and trying so very hard to learn what to do properly.
I have visited some of your sites (those who have their's posted on this forum)and couldn't quite find the answer for these questions so I figured I'd go right to you personally,
I am doing something wrong?   The other hives are doing great and there are actually some with medium (and some with small) supers that are already being filled and capped and looking great in their brood patterns etc......so I am certainly not complaining... but these 2 hives are baffling me and I can't find the answer!!
I knew i would here for there is so much knowledge on this forum, just tried to find the answer myself first...no luck.
One more question, I have ONE hive that has numerous and I mean numerous drone cells...am I to leave all these??
Or should I remove some like you do unwanted queen cells???What would cause the hive to produce so many drone cells.... in this hive there is a queen that is only 1 year old...so I don't understand, I know that workers will lay drone eggs correct??? But this shouldn't be the case in this hive. About how much of the frame should include drone cells????

 :D I thank you in advance for your knowledge and sharing it with me...
sincerely trying to keep the apiary successful...wish he were here to ask, but then again wouldn't have to ask for he had such a knack with the bees and so much knowledge...that is the shame, i didn't tap into it all when I could and now I realize that....
well, anyway, I'd really appreciate any advice you can offer me on the drone cells and the spotty brood....
sincerely, Patty
(by the way have pictures but can't figure out how to put them on here..haha..duh me ...any suggestions?...thanks )

[Michael Bush]

>The problem being, I haven't seen anything but spotty brood cells. I haven't seen where she is laying eggs. Is there a time limit (I know that it takes time) but when should I be expecting her to be laying brood???

Since she was small when you saw her I would guess she was a virgin.  It takes two weeks before she gets mated and starts laying and it may take a little longer to get into full gear.  I would give her a month from when you caught them.

>Also, found one other established hive with a NEW queen also that has little and I mean LITTLE amount of brood in the frames. Rolling Eyes What can cause this and is there something I can do to help them??

If they are afterswarms they are virgins. If they are virgins you've got two weeks before I'd expect ANY eggs.

>One more question, I have ONE hive that has numerous and I mean numerous drone cells...am I to leave all these??

I would.

>Or should I remove some like you do unwanted queen cells???

I wouldn't.  They will just build more and spend more resources to make more drones to replace the ones you removed.

>What would cause the hive to produce so many drone cells....

A typical hive has 10 to 15% drone cells.  20% is not unusual.

>in this hive there is a queen that is only 1 year old...so I don't understand, I know that workers will lay drone eggs correct???

Occasionally.  But the bees decide to raise brood or not.

> But this shouldn't be the case in this hive. About how much of the frame should include drone cells????

No more than 20% total.  No less than 10% total.

[atthelake22]

I so appreciate you taking time to help me out.  It means a lot and man I wish I had your knowledge!! You have eased my mind a lot...thanks again, you have always responded to my questions and made this adventure a little easier to understand. Thanks and God bless you.
Patty

[Michael Bush]

The time to get worried is when there are nothing but drone cells or 50% drone cells or, worse, drone cappins on worker sized cells.  Then you have a queen problem.

[Brian D. Bray]

By drone cappings on worker cells I believe MB is referring to a laying worker situation which can be a thorny problem and re-queening doesn't always solve it.  Especially if all you see is drone cells.  Loosing replacement queens to laying worker hives can be an expensive proposition.  
I've had best luck by inserting a frame containing fresh eggs from a different hive and letting them raise their own.
I also believe that the multiple eggs found in brood cells of laying worker hives is because more than one worker assumes the roll of queen.
Something to note if you ever encounter the situation.  Forewarned is fore-armed.

[atthelake22]

You're right you can never be too prepared for what might come..
There is so much to know and learn!  Thanks for the information!!
Sincerely patty

[Michael Bush]

>By drone cappings on worker cells I believe MB is referring to a laying worker situation which can be a thorny problem and re-queening doesn't always solve it.

Or a drone laying queen.

[atthelake22]

Okay, how will I know if I have a drone laying queen and what would ever make her do that??Is it something I have done? I know you said to expect the percentages and they don't seem to be more than the amount you specified was normal.  
However, now my curiosity is getting me...why would a queen do that? Is it because of an old queen or some kind of defect? I;d like to learn about this so that I can know what to look for in the future. Never heard of that and want to learn all I can. Thanks again for the replies and please explain that drone laying queen.  
We have limited resources and are trying to do the hives with little money going out as possible and all going well so far for dad had all the equipment and supplies (except will need to buy a few things later) but trying to requeen ourselves if can and been studying hard on this requeening thing. (there are 19 hives and spaced well apart ...some in his lot and some here at my home but evenly so, so there is little danger of inbreeding as I have read that can make bees mean or cause problems so don't think that is an issue.
Read a great book called HIve Management by Richard Bonnet and it gives great detailand info on doing this requeening. But of course he couldn't include everything in the book and I don't remember reading about a drone laying queen....curious as to how to know and how to solve and what it will do to the hive.  Does that mean no regular brood and hive will die out???ugh
Thanks to you both so much, I just looooovvvveee this beekeeping and can't get enough knowledge about it. Thanks for your help.
Sincerely and God bless,
patty

[Michael Bush]

>Okay, how will I know if I have a drone laying queen

You get capped drones on worker cells and you don't have a lot of mutiple eggs.  Multiple eggs would idnicate that it's laying workers especially if the eggs are on the sides and not in the bottom of the cell.

> and what would ever make her do that??

An old queen that runs out of sperm or a young queen that didn't get mated, either because of the weather or because she can't fly.

>Is it something I have done?

No.

> I know you said to expect the percentages and they don't seem to be more than the amount you specified was normal.

Then you have a normal queen.

>However, now my curiosity is getting me...why would a queen do that?

Because any unfertilized egg is a drone.  If the queen has no sperm with which to fertilize the eggs, she will lay nothing bot drones.

>Is it because of an old queen

One cause, yes.

> or some kind of defect?

No being mated is the other cause.

> I;d like to learn about this so that I can know what to look for in the future. Never heard of that and want to learn all I can. Thanks again for the replies and please explain that drone laying queen.

www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm

Huber wrote about exactly how long a queen has to be prevented from mating to end up a drone layer.

>so there is little danger of inbreeding as I have read that can make bees mean or cause problems so don't think that is an issue.

Queens generally fly further than drones to mate.  This makes it likely the queen will find some other drones to mate with.

>I don't remember reading about a drone laying queen....curious as to how to know and how to solve and what it will do to the hive. Does that mean no regular brood and hive will die out???

Yes.  But if you kill the drone layer and give them a frame of eggs from another hive, the bees will sort it out.

[Brian D. Bray]

A Drone laying queen is the more modern name for a laying virgin I guess, I find that having had a mentor who began beekeeping in the 1890's that I have a tendancy to use outdated terminology.  To me the laying virgin best descibes the situation and has been known to correct itself although requeening may be required.  
A drone laying queen, one that runs out of sperm prematurely, probably had one or more disrupted mating flights so she didn't get enough the normal resovoir.
If you requeen yearly drone laying queens never become a problem.  If you replace queens on a 2 year schedule (my personal preference) more is learned of the queens characterisitics and making the choice of which queens to use as foundation stock becomes easier.

[atthelake22]

It is so nice to have a place with such nice people to ask questions of. I really praise this site and the fact that you guys are always there to help out, it really eases the minds of those of us starting out and I love love love learning ...so all you have given me through your answers is greatly appreciated and duly noted.  NOW i understand the process a little better, but will never say completely for I see that beekeeping is a never ending learning process and such a wonderful experience. I am so happy to be an apiarist! Never dreamed of this type of activity being a part of my life, but now I see them as pets and want so badly to succeed. I know I will with the help of all of you..
I can't thank you enough...sincerely and God Bless You
Patty

[Michael Bush]

>A Drone laying queen is the more modern name for a laying virgin I guess, I find that having had a mentor who began beekeeping in the 1890's that I have a tendancy to use outdated terminology. To me the laying virgin best descibes the situation and has been known to correct itself although requeening may be required.

"With this view, I repeated the experiment; but, instead of giving the virgin queen liberty on the sixteenth day, I retained her until the twenty-first. She departed, rose high in the air, was fecundated, and returned. Thirty-fix hours afterwards, she began to lay: but it was the eggs of males only, and, although very fruitful afterwards, She laid no other kind.

"I occupied myself the remainder of 1787, and the two subsequent years, with experiments on retarded fecundation, and had constantly the same results. It is undoubted, therefore, that when the copulation of queens is retarded beyond the twentieth day, only an imperfect impregnation is operated: instead of laying the eggs of workers and males equally, they will lay none but those of males. " -- François Huber 21. August 1791

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm

They don't lay until they have mated, so there are no laying virgin queens, but if they don't mate until after the twentieth day they will be a drone layer.  The other cause is old queens that run out of sperm.

[Brian D. Bray]

Again, alas, I find that my mentor was not the world wise expert I thought him to be back then.  Ain't it funny how we insist on retaining information or fail to seek new info when we have a blind faith?