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Author Topic: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?  (Read 28404 times)

Offline ugcheleuce

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Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« on: January 27, 2014, 10:17:56 am »
Hello everyone

A lot of cheap wood that is available locally have been treated ("impregnated" under pressure) with stuff that make it last longer outside.  The shop where I buy my wood have claimed officially that their wood is treated with "garden friendly" stuff, so that one can e.g. make boxes with it that are used for home vegetable gardening.  The treatment has a green colouring, but I'm under the impression that the green colour is chosen not because the stuff is naturally green but because people associate green wood with treated wood.

Some beekeepers whom I've spoken to locally seem strongly opposed to using such wood for building a beehive, but some of them are wealthy enough to make hives from walnut wood if they wanted to.  I need to make hives on the cheap.

How do you feel about using treated wood?  The wood I'm thinking of using is used typically for garden tiles and/or for building sheds.  Do you think the bees will be bothered by it?  Will a lick of paint, a solution of propolis, or boiled linseed oil mask the odour sufficiently and protect the bees from it?  Do you think it will kill the bees or make them very, very unhealthy?  Do you think it will affect the suitability of the honey for human consumption?  If you think it will affect the honey, how would you feel if only the brood nest is made from it?

Thanks
Samuel
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3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Moots

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 10:49:55 am »
In general, I think it is frowned upon and not considered a good idea.  Most anything you read advises against using it.

Do some people use it, I'm sure they do.  Does it have a negative effect on their bees and/or their honey crop.....Who knows!  :?

Personally, I'd avoid it's use for my boxes.  I did make a few emergency bottom boards out of old treated boards that had been exposed to the elements for about 20 years.  I'll probably swap them out this spring, or maybe not... :-D  On one hand, I don't like the idea of having used treated wood, on the other hand, I find it hard to believe there's still anything on those boards that would harm my bees.

Offline Joe D

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 11:39:32 am »
I have seen some people on you-tube that have used treated wood, but like Moots said most everyone say not to.  My hives usually don't get wet or not much anyway.  My brood chambers are untreated plywood with several coats of paint.  Good luck with what ever you choose.



Joe

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 12:53:17 pm »
I make all of my hives. Knowing what is in treated wood keeps me from using it. It is designed to not only kill bugs but also fungus and bacteria. Your bees will be cleaning every square inch of the inside of the hive. Do you really want it in there. I have used it once as inner feeder boards but only with a thin piece of plywood on the bottom side to keep the bees from touching the PT wood.
Not in my hives.
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Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 02:27:04 pm »
My hives usually don't get wet or not much anyway. 

My reason for considering it has nothing to do with whether it gets wet or not.  The [sad?] fact is that treated wood in my regoin is cheaper than non-treated wood, and comes in pre-cut sizes that are more useful than that of non-treated wood.  My motive is money :-)

Your bees will be cleaning every square inch of the inside of the hive. Do you really want it in there?

I don't know enough about beekeeping to answer that question.  I know that there are many things that are "bad" for bees, but ultimately one strikes a balance.  And the balance is best struck if you know the facts about something (and it goes without saying that opinions of other beekeepers are also useful, of course).  I find no information or research or anything that would suggest that using treated wood for a hive would be a bad idea, except that beekeepers have a "feeling" about it.

Most anything you read advises against using it.

I'm googling like crazy...
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Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
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Offline flyboy

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 02:51:33 pm »
I am like the others in that I say this on principle.

I wouldn't use treated because for one thing you are going to be eating what comes out of the hive and so who knows. Maybe some of that chemical residue leaches out of the wood in the damp environment of the hive.

How much difference in price are we talking?

Another way to look at it is that if it will be painted (not sure I would even do that) the paint would prevent the leaching.
Cheers
Al
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Offline BingalingBees

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2014, 03:30:45 pm »
I used to treat my own fence posts... knowing what I know about wood preservatives and now about beekeeping - I do not allow treated wood anywhere in my bee yards. :^)
Brad Raspet - Mount Vernon, WA
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Moots

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2014, 03:48:44 pm »

Most anything you read advises against using it.



I'm googling like crazy...


ug,
Here's a couple of things I found on a quick search...

Beekeeping for Dummies says the following concerning the selection of wood:

"The one possible exception is pressure-treated wood. It doesn't seem like a good idea exposing bees to chemicals. Although since 2004, this category of wood product no longer uses toxic copper, chromium, and arsenic (CCA) to protect it from insects and mold. The new recipe is supposed to be safe. But if you'd rather not take a chance with your girls, stick to the all-natural, untreated wood." Link to Page!

The other quote is from the Environmental Protection Agency under Use site precautions for pressure treated wood...."Do not use treated wood for construction of those portions of beehives which may come into contact with honey."  Link to PAGE!

And another says..."- A 1984 study of the biological impact of CCA-treated wood on honeybees found that the bees had elevated arsenic levels and poorer winter survival when kept in CCA-treated hives." Link to Page!

If you are considering this, it looks like a good first step might be trying to determine if the wood you are considering contains CCA or not...

Another reason I think it's a bad idea...You say your decision is driven by money.  Who's more money conscious than a commercial Beek?  I don't mean this in a negative way, I simply assume they have to be.  Hive boxes are an investment for them, needless to say, they want them to last as long as possible.  Yet I know of NO hive body supplier that offers a hive box made from pressure treated lumber.  I'm thinking if there were a market for them, someone would be selling them.  Since no one is selling them, the commercial Beeks must not want them.  This tells me something...

Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 04:46:50 pm »
Here's a couple of things I found on a quick search...

Thanks!

Quote
If you are considering this, it looks like a good first step might be trying to determine if the wood you are considering contains CCA or not...

Nope, no wood that was treated after 2007 in my current country contains arsenic.  There are also strict rules about the current resale of wood that was treated with arsenic before 2007 (e.g. scaffolding materials used to make furniture), but the wood I have in mind is new.  It is treated with copper+chrome VI.

Of course, chrome VI is still poisonous, in certain quantities, but the government brought out its own report (in Dutch, sorry) about the risks of exposure for children's playgrounds and hobbyist gardeners, and declared the wood "safe" for those purposes.  The report doesn't say anything about honey, but it says that contamination can occur in two ways: by touch and by inhalation.  For contamination by inhalation, the treated wood needs to exist as a fine dust (much finer than saw dust).  For touch contamination, it measures the area of a person's body that touches the wood, multiplied by the time of exposure.  The area (square micrometer) of a bee that comes into contact with the wood is a hundred times less than that of an adult human.  On the other hand, there are 10 000 bees.  On the other hand, bees typically don't walk up the side of the hive, but prefer to walk across the comb.  It would seem therefore that the risk to the bees (and honey) due to airbourne treatment is negligible -- simply being in constant close proximity to the wood isn't dangerous and does not lead to transfer of substances.  But this is all conjecture from a study that is aimed at human exposure (an adult hobbyist and a 4.5 year old daily user).

One of your links lead me to a page that mentions "ACC", but I have no idea whether that is what is approved in the EU (I don't think so, since what is EU approved is a salt, not an acid).  Anyway, CCA is prohibited.
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Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline flyboy

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2014, 05:11:48 pm »
Ask your wife or if not married your neighbour's wife if she would like you to make a salad bowl from the treated lumber... LOL

You still haven't said how much money you stood to save.
Cheers
Al
First packages - 2 queens and bees May 17 2014 - doing well

Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 05:53:09 pm »
You still haven't said how much money you stood to save.

It's difficult to quantify, because they don't come in comparable sizes, and you have to consider the cost of equipment to process them, but according to my calculations non-treated wood becomes cheaper at around 10-15 hives.  For 5 hives, the cost of using non-treated wood is roughly twice that of treated wood.

I suppose I could just make 10 hives and give the surplus away at cost price to friends.  But to do that I first have to know that I would be able to make a hive that is sellable, and I can't know that before I make the investment, so it's a bit of a catch-22.  I tried to make a hive using the "wrong" equipment but it's clear that the result is not only not suitable for giving away but not even suitable for using myself.  Even a very primitive bee hive has a few non-negotiable specifications (e.g. it must be perfectly rectangular and perfectly level).

Anyway, if treated wood is no option (and it looks that way), then I'm back at looking a non-traditional hive containers.  In the coming week I'll learn how easy/difficult it is to make my own frames, and if it's relatively easy, then I'll drop my "requirement" that my hive must use local frame sizes.
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Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline edward

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2014, 09:39:54 pm »
NO!

They don't use the stuff in children's playgrounds beecause the kids touch Everything it gets on their skin and they lick and taste everything.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 09:34:00 am by edward »

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2014, 07:50:56 am »
I see a hive as a food container.  As flyboy said... would you eat off of it?  I can't say what is or isn't in it now that would or would not work well for bees, but in the past it has had insecticides in the treated lumber here and that never works well.  I would never use treated lumber for anything other than the stands.
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2014, 07:51:26 am »
I guess I'd consider whether I wanted 'my' walls to be faced with 'treated' wood first.  NOT in MY Hives, no way….(I'm amazed that 'treated' is less costly than non-treated, its the opposite around here).  

Can you follow a construction crew around for a few days?  You might find some treasures (piles of scrap lumber) with the right one….just a thought because money seems your biggest concern.

Building frames?  If you're having troubles building square or rectangle boxes, frames will be even more difficult IMO..  Personally I build my own boxes, bottom boards and telescoping covers.  Frames, I buy 'un-assembled' in bulk, minimum 100 count orders usually for around a dollar or less each.
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Offline woodchopper

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2014, 06:46:41 pm »
I see a hive as a food container.  As flyboy said... would you eat off of it?  I can't say what is or isn't in it now that would or would not work well for bees, but in the past it has had insecticides in the treated lumber here and that never works well.  I would never use treated lumber for anything other than the stands.

Ed Simon mentioned in one of his articles in ABJ that pressure treated wood now contains Neonicatoids instead of the arsenic they used for years. Not sure if it's true but I figured someone here might of read Ed's article and might be able to comment on it. I can't find it otherwise I'd direct everyone here to it so we could get some opinions on it. 
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Offline tefer2

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2014, 10:13:40 am »
Besides all the chemicals in treated wood, it shrinks and twists terribly after purchase.
The product we get here is half water logged with the treating solution and it take some time before drying out completely.
Although, we still use some treated wood in our pallet making process.
We just leave them outside in the elements for a few months before using them.
The lifespan of non-treated wood is not very long when contacting soil.
I would never use it inside the hive no matter the cost savings.

Offline edward

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2014, 01:17:10 pm »
The lifespan of non-treated wood is not very long when contacting soil.I would never use it inside the hive no matter the cost savings.

In my neck of the Woods its ileagal to use treated Wood in the ground because the Chemicals leak into the soil  :evil:


mvh Edward  :-P

Offline bbbthingmaker

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 08:22:19 am »
I only use it for hive stands.  The bees will have minimum contact with it there.

Offline ChristiC

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2014, 07:50:12 pm »
Hi everyone,

This is my first time on this site as I am getting ready (hopefully) to become a beekeeper.  My problem is, I wanted to use the materials I already have to build a topbar hive.  I live on a farm in Central Florida and have tons of old fence boards and some plywood from an old shavings bin.  All the wood that I will be using is at least 20 years old.  I know that it was pressure treated but has it been long enough that it is safe enough to build hives with? 


Offline edward

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Re: Can one use treated wood for making a hive?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2014, 08:16:27 pm »
If you Think its safe to make plates and bowls to eat of or feed your kids by allmeans make a beehive out of it, if not don't, bees make food inside the hive.   ;)


mvh Edward  :-P

 

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