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Author Topic: Think we lost our queen  (Read 1952 times)

Offline Hallbera

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Think we lost our queen
« on: October 25, 2010, 03:15:15 pm »
This is just our second winter with bees, and we've done without medicating them to date. I talked to the closest bee store owner though and he seriously recommended we medicate them with thymol. We were running a bit late with feeding them up, but we'd left a honey super on our main hive that had 6 of 10 frames full, so we weren't too worried about them.

The 2nd hive we have is a swarm we caught from our hive in June. They never got any honey stored, so we knew we'd be feeding them especially in spring.

We were kind of behind as it had taken all the extra boxes we had to house the swarm we caught, but got our act together about 2 weeks ago with more boxes built and painted.

We pulled the honey super from our 1st hive, so it wouldn't end up with thymol honey. A neighbor of ours does bees as well but more for pollination than honey. He's kind of hands off and more self taught. At any rate, he said rather than fighting the bees for the honey, he just leaves everything out until dark then grabs it once the bees are in for the night. BIG MISTAKE... I bet everyone reading this is now shaking their heads at us newbs. :(

We had a couple sawhorses that we use to set boxes on, placed the super there and went off to run some errands. There were lots of bees around the honey as you can imagine and an amazing amount of the honey was gone by dark. We made sure it was clear of bees and placed it in a secure tote we had for the honey super, thinking that we'd never do that again owing to all the honey loss.

The next day there was LOTS of activity around our hives. I was at work until 1400 in the afternoon and my partner called me and told me about the activity. I asked if there were bees fighting? She looked and said she didn't think so.

When I got home I saw that there were bees fighting. It was obvious the hives were under attack. Especially hive 1. I reduced the entrances and wet sheets placing one over each hive to the ground. This is also when I saw in my beekeeping for dummies, NEVER leave honey out around the hives like we'd done. I must have read it and forgotten it since talking to my neighbor. :(

Things had settled down by the next day. I uncovered the hives, and behavior seemed more normal.

In less than a full week I peeked under the lid and the jars above the inner cover were empty in both hives. It was kind of sunny, so I watched the hives a bit. Hive 2 from the swarm was actually still bringing in some pollen and impressively active for this late. It was very obvious though that hive 1 had something seriously wrong. A few bees were around the entry, but there was no organized activity. No bees coming and going steady or any pollen returning. As I watched, I saw a yellow jacket fly right in the reduced entry unchallenged past a bee. There were other yellow jackets that came and I managed to crush 4 or 5 before they could go inside. Others were flying out though before I could get them.

We'd made another batch of feed, so we opened the hives to refill. Under the jars in hive 2 were active bees that immediately set to eating as we delivered the fresh feed. Hive 1 had not a single bee under the empty jars. I checked later in the day and the feed was barely touched in hive 1. Hive 2 had alread eaten a good quarter of the sugar water already.

It's obvious the queen is gone in hive 1. Maybe she got killed by raiders or yellow jackets after we stimulated the attack of the hives. Or maybe she was even on that honey super for goodness sakes, which we hadn't thought about that we just left sitting there all afternoon. Oy.

At any rate, it's just too cold right now to inspect the hives according to what I have read. We are waiting to see if it warms up again enough to look inside. In the meantime what I wonder is with the queen gone this late in the season, is there any chance that this hive would be able to produce another queen themselves?

Even if I ordered a queen, the weather has turned damp and cold, so wouldn't I chill the hive if I tried to place a new queen in? Or chill the queen even?

We are just past a full week now since the hive attack, so I figure it may be too late anyway.

I guess what I am trying to decide if we are just done, or if there is anything to do to make things right at this point. Such a bummer as we loved that hive, the bees were super gentle and easy to work with. Feeling pretty dumb at this juncture.

Offline specialkayme

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2010, 03:48:12 pm »
i don't know what your temps are, as I'm not from your neck of the woods, but I can try to give you as much help as possible.

It's usually better to determine if the hive is not queenright before it gets too cold. But, hindsight is always 20/20.

You should not have left the super out. It MIGHT have worked if you took the super off RIGHT BEFORE sunset, then came back a little later, when it's dark and cold. The safer, and smarter bet is not to do it at all though. Again, hindsight is 20/20.

If you don't have a queen, they are screwed. They may be able to produce a queen (if they had young larvae), but if it's too cold for drones to be around it won't matter much, as she won't be mated in time.

So, what can you do from here? Basically, here are your options.
1. If you do nothing, and you are 100% positive the hive 1 is queenless, you will lose the hive. You could do nothing and hope for the best, as it's too late to do anything (probably what I would do).
2. If you are not 100% positive they are queenless, open them up on the warmest day and find the queen. Finding her or not probably won't help you though. If they are queenless and you confirm it, they are done. If you find the queen, you probably hurt them by inspecting.
3. Order a queen and place it in the hive, and hope for the best. If you don't mind spending $20-30 on a queen, go for it, but your odds of it working probably arn't high.
4. Combine the two hives using the newspaper method. This increases hive 2's chance of surviving, while saving whatever bees are left in hive one (making sure they don't die in vein).

Of those options, I prefer #1. It's less work, and too late to bother. If you are sure they are queenless, my next favorite method is to combine them. If you have two queens though, one will kill the other (and you are not guaranteed the better one will survive). If you don't want to give up your second hive, then go with #3, although this is a slim chance of survival. Least favorite is #2.

Offline AliciaH

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2010, 05:31:13 pm »
specialkayme:  I agree with everything you just said, but if Hallbera chooses to combine and there are two queens, isn't there a risk of both being injured?

Hallbera:  A couple of questions for you.  You pulled the honey sup from Hive #1, correct?  Do you know how much they have stored in the brood boxes?  Sometimes if my bees have access to something better, they won't take the syrup.

Also, do you have reducers on your boxes?  If you do, have you reduced the access to 1-2 bees' width, yet?  Doing this will help out the guard bees, and in addition, creates a bit of backup at the entrance.  The more bees at the problem point, the easier it will be for them to deter the yellow jackets.  Even the foragers will bite at them.


Online Kathyp

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2010, 06:01:45 pm »
why do you think the queen is gone?.  how much do they have stored?  up here, you should not be feeding syrup anymore.  it's to wet and it's getting to cold.  if they are not up on stores, put some dry sugar on for winter.

if you are very sure that you have no queen, combine the hives.  the newspaper combine will do fine if we have a couple of dry days.  you must leave an upper entrance.  you might also use an old window screen if you have one. 
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Hallbera

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2010, 06:26:59 pm »
Thank you all very much for your help :)

Hive 2 got reduced to about a 2 - 3" opening during the attack. I assumed being the newest hive they'd be the most vulnerable. There's definitely back ups when the sun is out, but they seem very healthy and active.

I first reduced hive 1 to a 4" opening when I saw they were being attacked. Then when I saw the issues with the yellow jackets I put it down to the smallest about a 1" opening. After I did that I observed the hive and saw no more aggression from my bees than before towards the yellow jackets. The yellow jacket intruders seemed to come and go unchallenged. And this past weekend we had a little sunshine when we topped the food, but while hive 2 was busy and bringing in pollen... hive 1 had no more than the few bees ambling around the entry. Definitely not seeing normal levels of activity.

This is why I suspect the queen is gone. The bees I have seen seem kind of lost in hive 1.

Sadly, I didn't have the time to open the hive during the brief sunshine!

The brood area seemed to have lots of honey when I removed the honey super, so they do have plenty of other food.

@ Kathyp we were behind in feeding them because I'd run out of boxes and was slow in getting more built/painted. We didn't expect we'd have a swarm and catch it. There went all our extra everything.

I think that waiting and seeing as specialkayme mentioned may be the better course at this juncture. Talk about hindsight being 20/20, so very, very true.

We have a local bee group that meets once a month. I have a very odd work hours, but starting this month my hours are such that I can finally attend the meeting!

Online Kathyp

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2010, 07:06:26 pm »
if, in the next week or so, you get a day above 50 and calm, get in there and check stores and for signs of the queen.  if you are convinced that she is gone combine them.  it is late, but we may yet have a good day or so to check. also check the stores in the other hive.  make sure they were not robbed out. 

of course, if the weather stays as bad as it is now you'll just have to keep your fingers crossed for spring.  either way, i'd get some dry sugar on both since you seem unsure of their stores.  this can be done quickly even if it's not the best weather.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Hallbera

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 12:00:27 am »
TY!

I'll be watching for a day I can check for sure.

Never heard of dry sugar... is there a post on that here, or do you care to share?

Online Kathyp

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2010, 12:11:43 am »
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,29902.0.html

here is one and there is a link to MB's site in this also.  if you do a search you'll find plenty of other discussions.

one hint on the search.  if you want to search the entire forum, click on Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forums (above) and then search.  otherwise, you'll just search the section you are in currently.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline specialkayme

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2010, 03:50:06 pm »
specialkayme:  I agree with everything you just said, but if Hallbera chooses to combine and there are two queens, isn't there a risk of both being injured?

Theoretically it's POSSIBLE, but it really never happens. It has never happened to me, and my old beek professor said it so rarely happens, it's not something you need to be concerned about.

Offline Hallbera

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Re: Think we lost our queen
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2010, 02:47:53 pm »
It is definitive Hive 1 is about empty. We made a late check yesterday evening, and were able to peek into the upper deep. a few stunned looking stragglers on well drawn and capped honey, but quite nearly empty.

It's slated to be over 50 today, and not raining. We hope to go out a tad later for a check of hive 2, a once over, also to close up and store hive 1 until spring.

UPDATE:

Weather turned after we'd pulled hive 1 apart in the shop, so we decided not to tear into hive 2. Wind came up with a rain squall.

Hive 1 was empty except maybe 4-5 bees. Lower had a few areas of capped brood cells with as far as we could tell healthy larvae underneath. There was pollen and honey in the lower and upper deep. We are pretty sure we triggered robbing and the queen was killed during all the battling. :'(

Tonight just before dark we'll pull hive 2's empty feed and planned to stick a couple of the partially full honey frames from hive 1 in over the inner cover. Figured on warm days they can work them over. It's still 40 to mid 50's here right now.They have a garden style hive lid that's actually insulated, and we screened the top entry so there's ventilation, but no access for robbers.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 06:17:26 pm by Hallbera »