Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)  (Read 4449 times)

Offline davidawbrown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« on: July 09, 2014, 07:39:26 pm »
So there has been a general outbreak of american foulbrood (AFB) in the county- Small county but no risk of it travelling and its made me do some research about AFB.

So AFB exists in two forms, spore and bacterium. Once the spores is ingested by the bee they develop into the bacterium,
but to the root of the question......

The spores are "extremely resistant to desiccation and can remain viable for more than 40 years" - Thanks Wiki-

WAX-

I was talking with a repesentive from Thorns Bee Suppliers (biggest suppliers over here) about wax treatment. I asked her if they treated the wax for disease.
She replied with no. The wax is filtered and that's all. Its too expensive to treat the wax.

So I plan on doing it myself (down the road), my question is relating to the wax.
Paenibacillus spores are heat resistant, I downloaded a document called "2.02.02_AMERICAN_FOULBROOD.pfd

In it, it talks about treating wax "120°C (248 °F) for 30 minutes at 1 bar"
1 bar is 1 atmosphere, so no compression required.
however if beeswax is heated above 85 °C (185 °F) discoloration occurs.

This is where im left wondering............

Any ideas......

I'm also aware that this is quite a detailed question.

Thanks again

Regards
Dave

Offline jayj200

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 10:29:36 pm »
Just asking the question

What about under vacuum? boils off water 

Offline davidawbrown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 11:15:36 pm »
1 bar is normal atmosphere.

The flash point of beeswax is 204.4 °C (400 °F)

So you could just put the wax into a Deep Fat Fryer at 120°C (248 °F)  and go back 30 min later. (except that beeswax is heated above 85 °C (185 °F) discoloration occurs)
The last thing you want in the mix is water.

If I remember my physics correctly, when your reduce atmospheric pressure (vacuum) that lowers boiling point. That might lower that point at which the wax will turn bad.
 

Offline Vance G

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 01:52:25 am »
For what purpose are you wanting to disinfect the wax?  If it is for candles or even lip balm it is out of the hives and not going to infect colonies.  If you are using it for the bees themselves, they won't care if it was discolored when disinfecting it.  I wouldn't personally trust any disinfecting anyway.  I scorch boxes, bottoms and lids thoroughly and doubt they are a concern but frames and combs are no longer on the bees. 

What are your bee inspectors telling you to do to prevent picking up the outbreak?  After supers are pulled and put away I would consider a course of treatment with tylan or tylox.  For Goodness sake do not set your wet supers out to get robbed out!  Fastest way to bring diseased bees into your apiary and to spread any infection you may have.   It is tough.  I burned two more hives this spring and two last fall and thirty the year before.  I have inspected for disease everytime I pull a lid and have seen no indicators but I did treat with tylan early in the spring.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 10:21:16 am »
The wax encapsulates the spores so they are not really viable.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline davidawbrown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 08:56:59 pm »
For what purpose are you wanting to disinfect the wax?  If it is for candles or even lip balm it is out of the hives and not going to infect colonies.  If you are using it for the bees themselves, they won't care if it was discolored when disinfecting it.  I wouldn't personally trust any disinfecting anyway.  I scorch boxes, bottoms and lids thoroughly and doubt they are a concern but frames and combs are no longer on the bees. 

What are your bee inspectors telling you to do to prevent picking up the outbreak?  After supers are pulled and put away I would consider a course of treatment with tylan or tylox.  For Goodness sake do not set your wet supers out to get robbed out!  Fastest way to bring diseased bees into your apiary and to spread any infection you may have.   It is tough.  I burned two more hives this spring and two last fall and thirty the year before.  I have inspected for disease everytime I pull a lid and have seen no indicators but I did treat with tylan early in the spring.

The wax would be repressed into new sheets of foundation!
I would have been under the impression that the wax was ruined by the treatment process and the bees wouldn't go near it! (my own thoughts)

Of course, I'm not going to do open feeding or another stupid way of getting any disease.
I don't feel at imminent risk of getting AFB, I want to recycle wax and want to clean it of any possible spores!
 

The Bee Association has a "lock down" on bees in and out of west Cavan.
(well asked all members not the transport bees in or out)

and its rural enough so they shouldn't spread naturally anyway.
(Thanks varroa destructor for killing the wild bee population!)

Offline davidawbrown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 08:58:53 pm »
The wax encapsulates the spores so they are not really viable.

Unless I repress it into wax foundation and the bees work the wax and ingest spores!!

I should have explained my intent with the wax.

And thanks to all for your reply's and input.

Regards
Dave

Offline jayj200

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 09:07:14 pm »
the question is how can we treat wax better without burning the wax?

again I'll ask anyone with air conditioning equipment to try the premise vacuum boils off water.

and what else? when one is applying vacuum. one is not applying heat. so I do not believe this would change the wax.
however it may change AFB as. nothing lives in vacuum

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 09:53:02 pm »
Jay,
I do not think spores would be killed in a vacuum. They will not grow in a vacuum but the minute you release the vacuum it is just waiting for a larvae to grow in.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 09:57:32 pm »
The wax encapsulates the spores so they are not really viable.
Michael,
Are you saying buying wax that came from a contaminated hive is safe because the spores are encapsulated in the wax?
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline deknow

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 876
  • Gender: Male
    • Golden Rule Honey, LLC
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2014, 08:13:53 am »
No.  There is extensive research from Australia on this subject...AFB spores are encapsulated in wax when making foundation and will not infect a hive using the foundation.  There are a lot 9 things to worry about, this isn't one of them..

The wax encapsulates the spores so they are not really viable.

Unless I repress it into wax foundation and the bees work the wax and ingest spores!!

I should have explained my intent with the wax.

And thanks to all for your reply's and input.

Regards
Dave

Offline davidawbrown

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 09:08:12 pm »
Do you have a link to this research?

Regards
Dave

Offline jayj200

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2014, 10:39:04 am »
No.  There is extensive research from Australia on this subject...AFB spores are encapsulated in wax when making foundation and will not infect a hive using the foundation.  There are a lot 9 things to worry about, this isn't one of them..

The wax encapsulates the spores so they are not really viable.

Unless I repress it into wax foundation and the bees work the wax and ingest spores!!

I should have explained my intent with the wax.

And thanks to all for your reply's and input.

Regards
Dave
 
what is the research?

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2014, 11:53:55 am »
Wax dipping:
http://www.apiculture.co.za/cgi-bin/books-read.pl?s=9.%20Hot%20wax%20dipping%20for%20sterilisation&book=hotwax-db.txt

They have been making foundation out of beeswax sent to the bee supply houses with no guarantee the was is free of AFB, for more than a century now... I have never heard of any issues from that.  I've always assumed they used steam to get the wax hot enough to kill the spores.  But encapsulation may also be part of the mechanism.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2014, 12:23:17 pm »
Wax dipping:
http://www.apiculture.co.za/cgi-bin/books-read.pl?s=9.%20Hot%20wax%20dipping%20for%20sterilisation&book=hotwax-db.txt

They have been making foundation out of beeswax sent to the bee supply houses with no guarantee the was is free of AFB, for more than a century now... I have never heard of any issues from that.  I've always assumed they used steam to get the wax hot enough to kill the spores.  But encapsulation may also be part of the mechanism.

Thanks Mike.
One thing I would like to correct in this article is the temperature. They say the wax needs to be between 150-160 degrees Celsius. 150 degrees Celsius = 302 degrees Fahrenheit. If someone tries to get their wax to that temperature it will probably ignite.  The melting point of beeswax varies slightly and is between 62 and 64°C (144 to 147°F). So they probably meant 150-160 degrees Fahrenheit.
Jim

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2014, 05:18:02 pm »
It's an Australian publication.  I don't think they know what Fahrenheit is... but I agree, I wouldn't try to get paraffin that hot...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline jayj200

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: AFB - Preventing better than cure (burning!)
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2014, 07:18:37 pm »
Have you ever released the pressure cooker that did not quite release all the pressure?
explosive decompression yes?
same in reverse. most organisms cannot survive in a vacuum. the wax may melt! wow did I just discover some thing powerful.

please don't poo poo this without trying it