starter strips - new guy confusion

[malabarchillin]

Hi
Is it true that if you start with 2 inches of starter strips that the bees may
catch and even surpass the plastic frames and foundation ?
If that is true it would make the honey extraction more conveniant for me
and I could find uses for the wax.

Thanks
Mike

[Understudy]

Hi
Is it true that if you start with 2 inches of starter strips that the bees may
catch and even surpass the plastic frames and foundation ?
If that is true it would make the honey extraction more conveniant for me
and I could find uses for the wax.

Thanks
Mike

I don't understand the question.
If you use starter strips your bees will use that as a foundation to start building their come. They prefer beeswax starter strips to plastic frames and foundation because bees hate plastic. However if you prepare the plastic properly than you do not have any issues.

If you use plastic foundation or comb, then you are not going to be doing drawn comb honey. That is where you put a piece of comb in the honey jar. With plastic fully drawn foundation the only wax you get is from the cappings. If you have uses for the wax and want to do drawn comb than plastic foundation and comb may not be right for you.

The use of plastic comb or natural comb depends on what you want from your hives and what you are dealing with. In my opinion the bees deal with either one fine.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[malabarchillin]

Thanks for replying.
I guess my question is :
Without a extractor it would be easier to crush and strain, but
does using short wax starter strips take so much time for the bees, that
they produce less honey than if you used plastic.
I am new and trying to decide what type of frames to get.
I think that I would like to use wood frames and short starter strips, but
I am uninformed.
Thanks
Mike

[Understudy]

Thanks for replying.
I guess my question is :
Without a extractor it would be easier to crush and strain, but
does using short wax starter strips take so much time for the bees, that
they produce less honey than if you used plastic.
I am new and trying to decide what type of frames to get.
I think that I would like to use wood frames and short starter strips, but
I am uninformed.
Thanks
Mike

Yes, crush and strain is easier when you do not have an extractor. The bees will be fine weather you use starter strips or foundation. The starter strips won't have that much of an impact on time. The amount of energy the bees use to draw comb in a starter strip vs foundation is a very hot topic. But the differences aren't really that big.

I use plastic permacomb. I have no problems with the amount of honey I am getting. I do not feel plastic or wax has any effect on the amount of honey the bees make.

Wood frames and starter strips are a fine way to go. The plastic foundation I used to use was a bit heavier guage and I would cut the comb off, by running the knife parallel to the surface of the foundation. Then I would do the crush and strain.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[JP]

Mike, lets say we are talking about the bees building comb on plastic foundation, or no foundation with starter strips, in your honey supers only, for the sake of this topic, and not in the brood nest. If you have a strong hive, during a good nectar flow, it won't matter what you have in between the frames, they want to build honey stores in your supers. Now, I acidentally put a medium atop two deeps with just frames, no foundation or starter strips and this particular hive didn't draw any comb in that super. Some on this site say their bees will and have drawn comb with foundationless frames and no starter strips, but I prefer wooden frames, and I use plasticell foundation. So far, I haven't really had a need to harvest cut comb, so I will stick with that set up for now.

One more thing, I have read here that some will spray their plastic foundation if the bees aren't drwing on it with sugar water, or smear a little honey on the plastic and this will entice them to draw.

[Zoot]

JP,

Did you use a medium that was ENTIRELY full of foundationless frames? That could have been the problem. I think that the practice advocated here (and I have done this successfully myself) is to alternate foundationless frames with frames that have either empty drawn comb and/or brood. The idea being to reduce crowding, stimulate comb building, etc.  all in the interest of minimizing swarming.

In response to the initial post - I have tried to be observant of the build up times for both starter strip frames and those with foundation (white, wax coated pierco or plasticell sprayed with syrup).  It seems that both have built up quickly - no discernable difference. We are also having a fairly strong, long running flow here. I actually used the starter strips mainly because I had run out of foundation. But I am quite happy with the results.

[JP]

Zoot, it indeed was a medium with all frames and no starter strips nor foundation.

[acbs]

Hi
Is it true that if you start with 2 inches of starter strips that the bees may
catch and even surpass the plastic frames and foundation ?
If that is true it would make the honey extraction more conveniant for me
and I could find uses for the wax.

Thanks
Mike

I'm not sure that with bees it's ever as simple as "true or false" (that's one of the things I like about it).  Put a starter strip in a box with all other frames drawn a couple of months back and they did just fine with it.  3 of our hives need more room now, so I added another box below the super with black Pierco in wooden frames (I'll never use plastic frames again, cause for me they seem more likely to build burr comb off of it) alternating with starter strips in 2, 4, 6, & 8 positions.  The nectar flow is heavier now and they're working the black Pierco hard but have only touched about a 2 square inch spot on one of the starter strips.  It might not work the same for you.

My suggestion would be for you to use whatever you want to use and whatever fits your situation the best.  Experiment and enjoy 'em.  They'll be just fine if you do the best you can to work with 'em.

 Arvin

[TwT]

Thanks for replying.
I guess my question is :
Without a extractor it would be easier to crush and strain, but
does using short wax starter strips take so much time for the bees, that
they produce less honey than if you used plastic.
I am new and trying to decide what type of frames to get.
I think that I would like to use wood frames and short starter strips, but
I am uninformed.
Thanks
Mike

yes bee will draw out starter strip faster than plastic foundation, and look at it this way, it takes 12 pounds of honey to make 1 pound of wax, so if you don't have a extractor and don't plan to get one any time soon then it wouldn't make a difference because they would be drawing out comb anyway.

 try it for yourself and see which you like , if it were me I use wood and wax foundation, I don't care much about starter strips, starter strips are best for comb honey when you want comb honey and run out of full foundation

[indypartridge]

Without a extractor it would be easier to crush and strain....

Another option is to borrow an extractor. Hook up with some local beekeepers. Some beekeeping clubs have extractors that members can borrow. Other beekeeping clubs have some nice members that will loan you an extractor.

[Brian D. Bray]

Some observations on starter strips:
1. Bees will build out starter strips just as fast or faster than frames with wax foundation they will build out plastic foundation ever slower.
2. Bees are reluctant to work plastic frames (unless they've been raised on them) and will often stop building on a frame before it is fully drawn out. (1 hive)
3. Putting bees on starters stips works well even straight out of the package.  My bees (3 hives) all drew the 1st box of starter strips without problems.
4. When adding a super to the hive the bees will, often as not, start drawing the super from the bottom bar up--in this case starter strips can be problematic.  This is encountered with hives using bottom entrances.
5. If adding a super of starter stips or foundationless frames it is best to have a super of fully drawn comb above the new super so the bees will build top bar down on conventional bottom entrance hives. 
6. On hives with top entrances, where the bees must cross the empty frames to get the the brood nest, they will quickly build out the second super from the top bar down--again without any noticeable problems.

My recommendation is to use foundationless or strater strip frames in top entrance hives.  The bees coming into the hive have to cross the undeveloped frames and will quickly build them out top bar down.
The use of foundation or drawn frames alternating with foundatiionless or starter strip frames is only necessary where the bees might build comb from the bottom up or build the comb as bridge comb apnning between frames.  I've only experienced this situation in bottom entrance hives.

I had 1 hive that drew out the front half of all 8 frames bueatifully but left the back half empty.  I simply switched the frames to the undrawn portion was in the front where the bees coming into the hive through the top entrance had to cross the vacant portion of frames.  They drew it out and I had to super within 7 days.
This without a strong flow and without feeding.

[Moonshae]

Drawing out starter strips in a week? I posted here but it got swallowed, since I didn't start a new thread. It's been a month and they've barely drawn anything.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=10515.msg68884#msg68884

[Brian D. Bray]

My experience is just the opposite.  I've found the bees are more than willing to draw out foundationless or starter strips even over foundation because it is more natural. 

I've a 1 hive on a 5 frame deep nuc of plastic and haven't been able to get them to draw more than 3 1/2 frames.  I finally, after 2 months, gave up on plastic (once again) and supered them with foundationless frames.  They have finally kicked into high gear.  This next week I'll rehive them into a 8 frame medium under the 5 frame nuc--I have a specially made nuc/top combo I use for that purpose.  I'll then pull the Nuc off to use as a queen bank when I super it again.

Is you starter strips under your other super.  Sometimes you have to get them to work down into starter strips, especially if you're using bottom entrances.

[Michael Bush]

Bees only draw comb if they need it.  Is there a flow?

[Moonshae]

Bees only draw comb if they need it.  Is there a flow?

I see plenty of foragers going and coming from at least 6:30 am until about 8 pm. Some are collecting different pollens, but most are not. They're all over my basil flowers and some of the flowers in the garden, and white clover is blooming all around.

[Michael Bush]

I've never seen foragers NOT coming and going unless the weather wouldn't let them.  That does not indicate a flow.  They draw comb when there is nectar and no where to put it.