another queen cell question

[Kathyp]

i popped the top on my strong hive today.  it's not so strong.  the population has gone down markedly in two weeks.  it is also FULL of queen cells and some uncapped brood, but i did not see any eggs.  sooooo, i have somehow lost my queen.

i am leaning toward leaving them alone rather than re-queening.  they obviously have a really good start on a new queen, and i fear that removing the queen cells and requeening would be a waste of a purchased queen. 

this will set the hive back some, but not to badly i hope since it is early.

any suggestions??  thoughts?

[Understudy]

If you can add a frame of brood from another hive. This will keep the count up.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Kirk-o]

Yes it looks like they are handleing the queen thing ok a frame would help also
kirk

[likes2grill]

About how long does it take for them to realize they are queenless and start to build queen cells normally?

[pdmattox]

I belive they know it within 4 hours and probaly start then.

[kgbenson]

i popped the top on my strong hive today.  it's not so strong.  the population has gone down markedly in two weeks.  it is also FULL of queen cells and some uncapped brood, but i did not see any eggs.  sooooo, i have somehow lost my queen.

They likely swarmed.  They leave when the queen cells are capped.

i am leaning toward leaving them alone rather than re-queening.

 

Sounds like a plan - you may like the queen they make, having said that, if you don't you can solve that problem later.


Keith

[Cindi]

Actually, I think it is more like about 15 minutes and then they know the queen is missing.  The queen pheromone is passed through the colony so quickly from bee to bee that it is an incredibly short time.  Great night and wonderful day.  Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>They likely swarmed.

That's my theory.

It's likely they will have a queen shortly.

[Kathyp]

i was leaning toward the swam.  wonder why.  they had plenty of room and plenty of food.  also, the weather was so crappy, i didn't think they'd consider moving until it got a bit warmer.

ah well, live and learn.  new package coming in a few days and i think these guys will be ok so it's another leaning experience!  :-)

[Brian D. Bray]

In evaluating a hive for swarming the first thing to look at is how much comb is drawn, then how full of brood, followed by honey stores.  Evidence of queen cells. The denisity of bee population is also a factor.  If the comb is all drawn out, brood area average with little or no new eggs, and some evidence of a reduction in stores then the hive swarmed.  They will often swarm before the new queens hatch.

The way to prevent it is to keep the hive in a mode of continually building more comb, especially in the brood chambers.  Removing some no-brood bearing frames from the brood chamber and replacing them with emplty frames will occomplish this. 

Waiting until the hive is completely full before supering means you've failed at swarm pervention.

[Kathyp]

stores were light but still some there, and i have been feeding.  they are bringing in more.  because of the weather, it had been a couple of week since i'd been in the hive and had not been all the way to the bottom.

 when i opened it the other day, all the bees were moved to one side with what was left of the brood and there were far fewer bees.
all frames are drawn out, but small brood area with some uncapped brood, no eggs, and plenty of queen cells. far fewer bees, but they had not built up enough to be crowed at all, so space was not an issue in swarming.

today, i have found several with deformed wings outside the hive and found a few mites on the board.  i have also been through the entire hive.  the bottom board was clogged with dead bees and stuff.  the lower chamber had some moldy frames.  i have cleaned the bottom board and commenced treating for mites.  in a few days, i'll check those queen cells and see what's happening. 

 
 

[Michael Bush]

>i was leaning toward the swam.  wonder why.  they had plenty of room and plenty of food. 

Running out of room is a common cause of late swarms.  Early swarms are for reproduction.   They don't leave because they are out of room.  Swarming was their plan last fall when they stocked away enough stores for a good buildup in the spring so they could swarm before the main flow hit.  They swarmed because you didn't fool them into not swarming.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

[tig]

where there a lot of dead bees???  maybe they absconded

[Kathyp]

When the bees think they have enough bees they start filling all of that back in with honey, both to stop the queen from laying, and to have adequate stores in case the main flow doesn't pan out. As the brood nest gets backfilled it makes more and more unemployed nurse bees. These nurse bees start doing a keening buzz that is quite different from the typical harmonious buzz you usually hear. More of a warble. Once the brood nest is mostly full of honey they start swarm cells. About the time they get capped the old queen leaves with a large number of bees. Even if you catch the swarm, the hive has still stopped brood production and has lost (to the swarm) a lot of bees. It's doubtful it will make honey. If there are still enough bees, the hive will throw afterswarms with virgin queens heading them.

from your page.

 the queen had just started laying again.  the weather has bee very cold and we are just now coming above freezing at night. i really thought they had a bit of work to do before swarming.  things have just started blooming.  they are just now starting to bring in stores.  they do not have a lot stored in the cells.  i still have feed on the hive. 

what i did notice is that they seemed to go through the stores they had left from winter very quickly.  it's almost like they fed up so that they could take off.  i don't know when they had weather good enough to leave, but they seem to have done it.

tig, the dead bees on the bottom were from winter.  it was just yucky hive gunk that needed to be cleaned off.  there are still bees in the hive, but i'd say 1/2 or fewer than two weeks ago.  they were not fresh dead on the bottom.

[tig]

sorry kathy i keep forgetting you have winter!

[Brian D. Bray]

A raid depletion of stores is one sign of swarming. 
The bees will gorge themselves with honey before they leave.  Just because the hive has not built out fully does not mean they won't swarm.  An early swarm can really set a hive back as far as development goes.  One key to reduce the likelyhood of swarming  is to get them building comb even removing one drawn frame and replacing it as early as February can help.  Getting them building comb, then keeping them building comb is one of the better swarm prevention techniques but it must be used along with several other methods to be successful, one swarm prevention technique is seldom successful by itself.

[Kathyp]

well, bummer.  i was trying to leave them alone because of all the crappy weather we were having.  don't know that i would have recognized the signs, but i would have noticed that they'd eaten a lot!

when i asked MB about signs he looked for before making a split, it was after a day that we'd had enough warm weather to let them fly a bit.  in my gut i think i knew that there was a difference in their behavior, but didn't believe my gut.  that must have been about the time they took off. 

oh well, i have learned something new  :-)

thanks guys.