Tips for working very strong hive

[Koala John]

Hi,
I have a very strong hive that has me perplexed. As a second year beek, I am pretty comfortable working most small to mid sized hives, sometimes with no gloves, and when I'm slow and careful, all goes well. But I find with a very strong hive (3 boxes of 8 frame deeps jammed full of bees), no matter how careful I am, the sheer quantity of bees makes it a certainty that I am going to roll or crush lots of bees when I lift the first frame, or when I move or replace a lid or a box. After one or two instances of me rolling and crushing their sisters, they start to get angry. This makes a full inspection virtually impossible, as I am soon surrounded by a cloud of unhappy bees. This particular hive is in danger of swarming and I want to open up the brood chamber, but at the moment that's something I am dreading taking on. Note that I don't feel this hive is particularly aggressive normally, only when I am in it up to my armpits!

Does anyone have some tips they can give me about how to handle very strong hives like this? Thanks.

[Brian D. Bray]

Maybe it's your technique.
8 frame Langstroths have a little extra room on each side of the hive that 10 frames doesn't.
The hive should be set up so that all 8 frames are pressed as closely together as possible and the mass centered in the hive.  That allows about an inch of free space on each side of the frames.
Using your hive tool, gently pry 3 frames away from the others and up against the side of the hive you're working on.  This moves the empty space.  If you like you can do the same thing to the opposite side making your frame free space even larger.
Now pry the 3rd frame away from the other 2 and nudge it to more or less centered in the empty space.  You can now lift/remove that frame without knocking , killing, or crushing any bees.
After inspection of that frame leave it outside the hive or use frame hangers to hold it outside the hive.
You now have almost 2 full frame widths with which to manipulate the frames and prying them apart and lifting them with enough space between them as not to injure any bees is relatively easy. 
Once all the frames have been inspected the frames can be returned to correct order, pressed together and centered and the beekeeper should still have a hive of relative calm bees provided he didn't drop any frames or stumble and fall on the hive.

I've been using that technique since in was shown to me by my mentor in 1959 with good results.  I seldom rile a hive, except when clumsy, and can even inspect a fairly proddy hive successfully.

[tlynn]

What time of the day are you working them?  I find that working my bees early afternoon, say 1 or 2 pm, especially when it's sunny, is better than morning or late afternoon, as far as numbers of bees at home.  Also it works really well for me to smoke them first, then give them a few minutes, maybe suit up at that time.  I think Mr. Bush recommends smoking them early, as it gives them a chance to eat a little honey and it seems to make for a calmer hive than smoking them and popping the top immediately.  Also if the hive is really full, when I put back frames I lower them very slowly and the bees on the edge of the hive body generally move out of the way as soon as they feel a little pressure from the top bar coming down.  The bigger challenge for me is not mashing bees when I push 2 frames together.  Slow seems to be key.  It probably takes me a lot longer to do a hive inspection than most, and I tend to kill few bees and maintain calm hives given my low level of experience (first year hobbyist).  I have watched other people who manhandle their bees and get them really angry, needlessly.  After getting stings through my shirt and pants on one occasion when watching one fellow slam around his hives and kill many bees I also realized I have to pick and choose my beekeeper mentors!

[rdy-b]

Try cracking the boxes before you start to move frames around - (Separate with hive tool )if they are all glued together with burr-comb-if the colony has not been worked for sometime it may be a easier to separate the boxes and inspect them one at a time-that way you are not banging and  clanging them -every vibration transmits through the boxes-go slow and use smoke in the air not just in on the bees -you will come to look forward to these boomer hives they are the best  8-) RDY-B

[BjornBee]

Are you smoking the bees? And are you smoking periodically as you inspect?

In addition to using proper smoke techniques, you might want to have a bottle of sugar syrup on hand to spray them down a bit.

[Koala John]

Thanks for the replies, there is some extremely good advice there I will take on board, I think that wll help. I suspect I have messed up the frame spacing a bit as you suggest Brian.
I do smoke them before going in, and regularly throughout the inspection. I do tend to go in too soon after the first smoking though so I need to be more patient and wait a few minutes. I only work them in the middle of the day on a sunny day - my technique works fine with a smaller hive. I think I will have to focus on slowing down and not rushing an inspection on a big hive.

I had read that larger hives are generally more aggressive than smaller hives, so I had put down my difficulties to this and the fact that there are such vast numbers of bees that the chances of squishing a fair few seem a lot higher. The consensus here seems to be that a booming hive should be no more aggressive or harder to work than a more mid sized hive - is that correct? Do other beginners have issues with inspecting big hives?

Thanks again for the tips, I'll put them into practice over the next few days.
John.

[Brian D. Bray]

The consensus here seems to be that a booming hive should be no more aggressive or harder to work than a more mid sized hive - is that correct? Do other beginners have issues with inspecting big hives?

Every hive should be relatively calm.
Slow and methodical movements, smoke before and during the inspection.  Smoke is a must if going into a second box.  Get in the habit of using a slight twist of the box to break the propolis and burr combs.  All beginners have these same issues unless they have a mentor at their side guiding every move.

[1of6]

Koala John - You've received a lot of very good advice here.  A hot hive takes a little bit of the enjoyment out of beekeeping, but you can get around it.  Hive size can play into it, as can a lot of other things...however sometimes there are just colonies that flat out need requeening if you're expecting them to be 'nice'.  Don't be too quick to do this though, as they still may be good producers, and you may be able to adjust your practices to compensate for this.

Some of my colonies take a lot of smoe to calm down, others it's really easy to over-smoke.  I've got a friend whose bees (I've seen it first hand) will only take a little smoke, and then after that, get really cranky (and crawly).  I had one really hot colony that I ended up splitting apart and giving out in frame or two frame proportions to other colonies becuase they were just so darn hot.  They required almost constant smoke while I was working them, followed you for a very very long distance, and were just absolutely miserable to work...and they were only a single deep.  I'm pretty sure this was the hive that almost killed our dog too.  Good riddance (the bees I mean.)  :-D

I've run some 3-deeps this year, and I've noticed that most were pretty tame, unless you went down into the bottom box.  The supers weren't a problem, and neither was the top deep.  The second deep did require that you be pretty careful, and not bang anything or drop anything.  The bottom deep...well there was a chore, and I soon went to really trying to not touch it if I could help it...packed with bees, and ultra-lively.


Cool spring day, no one out playing yet.

I've pretty much gone with a rule of thumb in removing the outermost frame to give a full slot to slide frames over.  This sounds beginner-ish, but really seems to be important in the more crowded boxes.  regardless of whether or not any of us are quick to admit it, boomers are more work to 'work', and sometimes these crowded boxes really do put you to the test.watch it this year and see if you want to adjust your techniques, or if you want a gentler bee in that hive.  That's probably the big decision you have to make.

Don't be afraid to throw some pictures up on the site - we'd love to see them.

[Michael Bush]

If it's just a lot of bees in the air, you should get used to that.  If it's bees trying to sting you, I'd requeen them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm

[wharfrat]

As a 1st year keeper, I also appreciate the advice here. My biggest problem seems to be replacing supers that have been removed to inspect lower portions.....After I button everything back up, invariably I have the displeasure of seeing 1/2 bees that I have smushed between the 2 sections......  :(

[Michael Bush]

Set the boxes down gently, so the faster ones can get out of the way, at an angle, so the mating surface area will be greatly decreased.  Slowly rotate it into being square with the other box allowing the bees to get pushed out of the way or get out of the way.

[tlynn]

The box rotating technique works really well for me.  I found it DOES NOT help to try brushing them off the edges of the boxes.  They just get irritated and more start spilling out from below.  They absolutely hate being brushed!

[Michael Bush]

If you HAVE to brush them do it with a hard flick, never try to be gentle when brushing or it will make them very angry.

[Koala John]

Thanks for the great comments everyone, there are some good tips there.
I went through a moderately strong hive and put some of your comments into practise and things did go more smoothly. I have to go through one of the booming hives in a couple of days, so hopefully things will go more smoothly. To complicate things, this one is sitting on a small platform 15 feet high that I climb up to via a ladder. It certainly concentrates the mind up there ;-)

[Irwin]

Why do you have a hive 15 feet off the ground. Seams like allot of work.

[Kathyp]

giving them one last smoke before you put them back together can help with the squishing thing.   

i have one hive that is more aggressive, but i wouldn't say hot.  they are also the first to fly in cooler weather and grow quickly.  they have been requeened since i started that hive, but their behavior is about the same.  they like to bounce off my veil when i check them and will buzz me farther back to the barn.  even so, they do not sting more than any other hive, and as long as they are strong, i won't mess with requeening them just to make them a little calmer.

guess it depends on your "ping" tolerance.  + i always dress to play with the bees because i swell up so much, so i don't care if they are bouncing off my jacket and veil.

[JP]

Good post. I work mine slowly, slow works for me. I smoke them on one end to the other and let them sit for a little before opening, allowing the smoke to settle in. I love frame hangers and use them. I keep my smoker handy and use it often to keep the bees that get pissy in check. I don't requeen a hive that is strong and a little aggressive unless it is consistently aggressive. Big, strong colonies I expect to be defensive to a degree, just make sure you have the upper hand, smoke gives me the upper hand.

Slow is the way to go.


...JP

[Koala John]

Hi Irwin,
I live near the centre of a large city, and this is the only place I was able to put them - it's inconvenient to say the least, but quite a talking point when people visit our house! See this link for more info and photos:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,15470.msg111778.html#msg111778
Regards,
John.

[Irwin]

John cool pic's Thank's

[Lone]

Irwin, don't you know that koalas are most comfortable high up?  Koala John probably sleeps 15 foot up too and chews gum leaves.

Lone