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Offline ccar2000

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Breaking the treatment treadmill
« on: April 17, 2011, 06:27:36 pm »
How does one kick the habit? I only keep two hives so quitting cold turkey and losing a couple of hives would be devastating.
It is what it is

Offline ArmucheeBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 07:08:49 pm »
I have 14 hives and started 4 years ago.  I have never treated for anything.  I use SBB and close my entrances down in dearths to 3/4 by 3/4.  I have SHB but I only treat them with a srewdriver.  I use plastic MannLake PF120, so wax moths are not a problem and the SHB can be crushed in the frame crevices.  I run feral bees and some Italian/Russian mixes.  I don't understand why people treat?  What's to treat?  I have a few varroa but the SBB really helps that.  I have only lost 1 hive in 4 years and that was to starvation.  What do you treat for?
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 10:05:58 pm »
Once you lose them all WHILE you are treating, it seems the myth of treatments keeping them alive should be busted...
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Offline ccar2000

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 12:40:41 am »
Agreed!
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 08:47:12 am »
I "Treat" my bees all the time. Every chance I get.  ;)

I try to use the right equipment, the right management, the right genetics, etc. While I don't use chemicals, I do treat my bees.

Way too many beekeepers treat with chemicals, then somehow equate stopping the use of chemicals with doing nothing.

Not using chemicals means using other "treatments" in one way or another. But NOBODY should NOT TREAT bees.

I'll give you an example.....if you are using ANY swarm prevention, you are negatively impacting that hive by not allowing the process of what bees do naturally in a hive. Swarming, brood breaks, first year queens, all give the bees a natural ability to control mites. Take away that ability, then you better compensate for this in your management.

Add in the fact that bees in nature (feral colonies) almost NEVER reach the bee numbers (50,000 - 60,000) or utilize the massive volume space we provide by adding supers, then as a beekeeper, we should figure that we are also creating circumstances that goes against what bees would do naturally in combating such things as mites, and other problems.

This whole notion that beekeepers should not "Treat" their bees is many times translated into beekeepers going from one year of treating, then the next year doing nothing. The ole' "El Naturale" system, of hands off and watch the bees die.....after creating situations where they could not replace their queen, they were manipulated into mega colonies, and toyed with by beekeeper intervention.

I really wish this whole "Non-treatment" statement was not used. For many, it just is assumed this means doing absolutely nothing.


Treat your bees....you bet!

Chemicals....No way!

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Offline luvin honey

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 09:45:32 pm »
Sorry to be dense, but what is SBB?
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Offline AllenF

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 09:53:56 pm »
Screened bottom board.

Offline luvin honey

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 10:00:22 pm »
Goodness!! That really WAS dense of me! Thanks :) I was stuck on acronyms starting with "sugar."
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Offline luvin honey

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 07:48:53 pm »
Thanks :) I hadn't been on the forum much last year after my bees were taken out by bears, and I guess I lost my terminology.
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 07:19:00 am »
BjornBees advise above is most appreciated and to the point.  Never really thought of it that way so thanks a lot for the insight.  I guess we'll all have to come up w/ another term because while I don't treat w/ chemicals (not really a treat) I certainly do find ways to 'treat' my bees.

As for getting off the 'chemical' treatment treadmill, just do it.  For your bees and you :) It'll make you a better beek IMO

Thanks again.

thomas

PS to luvin honey;  I also lost bees (3 colonies, one a three winter survivor) to a bear this past Spring.  I consider myself lucky to even have bees going into winter this year.  Good luck to you.
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Offline ryandebny

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 08:43:35 am »
Has anyone tried Oxillic acid. It's found naturally in plants and honey, but in high concentrations wipes out mites. It doesn't get in the wax either.

Offline T Beek

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 09:00:15 am »
Many have and swear by it, many have not and will not, many have and stopped.  You'll likely hear all sides 8-)

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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2011, 03:58:58 am »
>Has anyone tried Oxillic acid. It's found naturally in plants and honey, but in high concentrations wipes out mites. It doesn't get in the wax either.

The only apparent side effect is it kills off most of the microbes, most of which are necessary for the colony to displace pathogens and digest pollen.  Bees cannot digest pollen, they can digest bee bread which is like the difference between milk and fermented milk (like keifer or yogurt).  Bee bread is a fermented product that requires pollen, several kinds of bacteria, several kinds of yeasts and a two stage fermentation process.

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Offline T Beek

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 07:25:00 am »
"A two stage fermentation" process, sounds like a Beer Recipe :)

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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 08:04:33 am »
Many have and swear by it, many have not and will not, many have and stopped.  You'll likely hear all sides 8-)

thomas

I'm one who has stated being against it. How many treatments has the industry pushed upon us in attempts to deal with mites, and has come back years later with detrimental impact on colony health? And I have offered many times to take up any bets, that 10-20 years from now, that there will be a treatment today, claimed to be safe, that will end up being shown to have negative consequences for bees.

I wrote about acid treatments in April 2009. Scan down to that date on this page for a differing point on the use of acid treatments. http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings0910.html

Funny thing is, I don't see much in the way of folks having better winter survival after treating bees with acid. They still have 30-100% loss like everyone else, and many times worse than those using no chemical treatments.

I agree with MB, that the stored pollen is being destroyed. So to me using it kills mites which is intended. But it also ages bees and renders pollen unsuitable for consumption or health benefits.
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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 08:18:40 am »
>"A two stage fermentation" process, sounds like a Beer Recipe

Yes.  Very much like that... except a bit more essential...
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2011, 08:39:10 am »
Thanks to all of you for the continued discussion and shared insights on this important topic. I know the archives are loaded, but this ongoing dialogue is even better IMO.

As has been pointed out, there seems to be no end in sight for the development of products shoved our way, always touted to be the 'latest' savior.  As in all things "caveat emptor."

"Treatment free is the way to bee :)"

(of course, that doesn't mean we don't provide our bees w/ some 'treats', right?) ;),

We are going to have to come up with another word or phrase at some point as BjornBee indicated in an earlier posting, if only to satisfy any purists :-D) out there.  Sorry.

MB, I consider our 2 stage (sometimes 3stage) brewing schedule to be equally essential, especially when cooking up strong Ales :-D

Seriously though, If understanding this correctly, bees can apparently accomplish this 2 stage fermentation w/out having to transfer to another container, or cell (like beer), is that right? 

This is a very interesting turn in the discussion.  What do the bees do to bring on stage 2 fermentation?  Thanks!

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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2011, 11:30:05 pm »
>Seriously though, If understanding this correctly, bees can apparently accomplish this 2 stage fermentation w/out having to transfer to another container, or cell (like beer), is that right?

Yes.

>This is a very interesting turn in the discussion.  What do the bees do to bring on stage 2 fermentation? 

They have the microbes in their stomach.  The inoculate the pollen with it when they make the pellets to put in their baskets on their legs.  The pollen is near the brood so it is heated.  The first stage burns out and the second takes over naturally without any change other than the change in the pollen.  It is a "microbial succession" where one stage leaves the by products needed by the next stage.
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 12:26:59 pm »
I have to admit I've been lazy in obsorbing (or even investigating too much of) the 'science' of beekeeping, was just trying to get reaquainted after a long layoff.  This time the science is calling with a loud voice. 

Thanks!

thomas
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Offline Larry Bees

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 12:42:57 pm »
I have 14 hives and started 4 years ago.  I have never treated for anything.  I use SBB and close my entrances down in dearths to 3/4 by 3/4.  I have SHB but I only treat them with a srewdriver.  I use plastic MannLake PF120, so wax moths are not a problem and the SHB can be crushed in the frame crevices.  I run feral bees and some Italian/Russian mixes.  I don't understand why people treat?  What's to treat?  I have a few varroa but the SBB really helps that.  I have only lost 1 hive in 4 years and that was to starvation.  What do you treat for?

Why are wax moths not a problem if you use plastic MannLake PF120?

Why does SBB help with the varroa?

Larry

Offline ccar2000

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 02:50:21 pm »
I am guessing that Armuchee is saying that the wax moths do not eat the plastic foundation?
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Offline tillie

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 10:02:21 am »
SBB helps with varroa because the bees groom each other and themselves and in the process, they clean off varroa mites.  The mites fall through the SBB and can't come back up to get onto another bee.  If they fall onto a solid bottom they can simply attach to the next bee that comes along. 

That's the way it is - I keep SBB on all of my hives throughout the winter since here in Atlanta, closing up the bottoms isn't really necessary. 

Linda T in Atlanta

Offline Larry Bees

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 12:26:58 pm »
Thanks tillie and ccar2000 for your replies. I am using SBB's and plastic foundation right now so maybe I did something right. Larry

Offline scottchip

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2011, 12:01:25 am »
Logging into beemaster for the first time right now and fully appreciate this discussion. I am transitioning to chemical free over this winter after a tough bee year and hoping to improve the bee yard living conditions!. This is my second beekeeping winter so the experience level is pretty moderate. I am changing out foundation in the empty hives before introducing new bees. Is there anything else other that SBB that I might want to consider in the transition?

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2011, 12:28:20 am »
I never got them to survive the Varroa until I got on small cell.
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Offline rail

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 06:26:13 am »
I never got them to survive the Varroa until I got on small cell.


small cell = natural cell size - foundationless?
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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 07:26:22 am »
>small cell = natural cell size - foundationless?

Not exactly.  But I had the same results with natural cell.  Large cell=5.4mm small cell=4.9mm Natural cell=4.6mm to 5.1mm
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 07:40:32 am »
>small cell = natural cell size - foundationless?

Not exactly.  But I had the same results with natural cell.  Large cell=5.4mm small cell=4.9mm Natural cell=4.6mm to 5.1mm

What same results?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:25:21 am by BjornBee »
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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 09:50:25 am »
No more Varroa issues.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 10:33:30 am »
No more Varroa issues.


Thank you MB.

Interesting.

I couldn't say that 8 years ago when some were suggesting that the only answer was smallcell.

And I can't say that today, about a single solution item such as natural cell.

Now do I have many mite problems...no. But I attribute that to genetics, management, and a host of other things I do for bees, perhaps even including natural and smallcell.

I know if I dump in a package of bees on natural comb, that mites will be an issue. I've done it many times. Same as smallcell.

So I can hardly support the message that smallcell, or natural cell, is the defining solution of mite problems. That dismisses many of the other factors that I use, and know, that make hives thrive and coexist with mites.
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Offline Larry Bees

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 11:40:03 am »
SBB helps with varroa because the bees groom each other and themselves and in the process, they clean off varroa mites.  The mites fall through the SBB and can't come back up to get onto another bee.  If they fall onto a solid bottom they can simply attach to the next bee that comes along. 

That's the way it is - I keep SBB on all of my hives throughout the winter since here in Atlanta, closing up the bottoms isn't really necessary. 

Linda T in Atlanta

I've been thinking on this answer all last night and now I have another question:

If the mites fall through the SBB and can't get back into the hive, then how do the mites get into the hive in the first place? Larry

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2011, 11:49:08 am »
>I know if I dump in a package of bees on natural comb, that mites will be an issue. I've done it many times. Same as smallcell.

I've done it many times as well.  And I have no Varroa issues.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2011, 12:12:35 pm »
>I know if I dump in a package of bees on natural comb, that mites will be an issue. I've done it many times. Same as smallcell.

I've done it many times as well.  And I have no Varroa issues.


Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your saying that the mites, regardless of ANYTHING else (genetics, equipment, management), if using some natural drawn comb, that ALL mite issues will be gone? That nothing else plays into it. And that the message your sending for beginners is all they need to do is buy natural comb (or smallcell), dump in a package, and you will have no mite issues. I just want to be sure before we proceed further.

I certainly feel other factors are at play. But if your stating any beekeeper could just order packages, dump them on natural comb, and they can expect no mite issues to surface, this is interesting. Never heard it promoted as simple as this previously.

If you don't mind, I have many questions. Since I know more than a few smallcell and natural comb beekeepers, (including myself), I can say that they probably do not see the same single caused effect you do. I'm giving a talk in March on this topic and will be covering all the different approached in beekeeping being promoted today. So I am highly interested in these observations and statements.
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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2011, 12:22:54 pm »
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2011, 12:47:37 pm »
Well that certainly is far different than the vague message of a one line statement that dumping bees on a certain comb will make all mite issues go away. Perhaps an asterisk, or disclaimer should be considered in the future.  ;)

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2011, 08:44:24 pm »
There are many things I would do for many reasons.  And a hive is certainly not limited to one issue that needs to be addressed to have healthy productive bees.  However, if you are talking about the one issue, Varroa, and the one thing that tips the scale on that one issue, for me that was cell size.  I was already doing the rest.  I was already raising my own queens and not treating when the all died from Varroa.  I tried SMR and Russian Queens.  I bought some more Buckfasts (I was already using them when the first die from Varroa) and they all died from Varroa on large cell.

Now do I think you can take a bunch of Southern large cell bees, put them on contaminated wax that happens to be small cell, treat them with antibiotics and organic acids that will kill off all the microbes and expect them to live through the winter?  No.  But that is not because of Varroa.
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Offline Solomon Parker

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2011, 10:44:14 am »
I also keep my bees on small cell.  I do not believe it to be the single solution to mite problems.  I firmly believe there to be a survivor genetic component as well as the necessity for clean wax.
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Offline bud1

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2011, 12:49:55 am »
i got them southern bees; every one of them caught or cutout. dont use small cell or treat for varona and some of my hives are 6-7 yrs. old. one dies just catch a swarm and chunk it in the hive on the old comb.  as jeff says no wories mate.
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Offline bud1

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Re: Breaking the treatment treadmill
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2011, 12:55:13 am »
oops forgot most do live through the winter if fireants or beetles dont get them. varona no problem, beetles, now thats another story
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