Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Royall on October 28, 2013, 04:24:20 pm
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I've got to buy foundations for the first time. I've been building hives and components for a Beek but now have two hives of my own and have been given the foundations for the hives that I now have. I was given "PermaDent" foundations and find that it is 76 bucks to ship 100 to me in Hawai'i. That said, I find that Mann Lake sells a box of 100 Rite-Cell on Amazon for 99 bucks with free shipping.
My Beek friend says that he only uses the PermaDent because of delamination problems with repeated use of the Rite-Cell foundation.
What are your experiences? My Beek has only had bees for about 20 months and was wondering if he could just be repeating something that he heard rather than having experienced any problems himself.
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Most of my 70 double deep colonies have rite-cell plus most of my honey supers and I have never had a problem with it. It has a good even coating of wax that the bee's work easily.
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Study up on FOUNDATIONLESS systems before the $ are handed over, you may decide that route instead.
Go with no foundation, let your bees decide the size of their cells, they're the ones living there :-D
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Study up on FOUNDATIONLESS systems before the $ are handed over, you may decide that route instead.
Go with no foundation, let your bees decide the size of their cells, they're the ones living there :-D
Agreed,
Do you already have drawn comb? If you do it works to guide the foundationless drawn frames.
Do some searching it could save the shipping.
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I have to agree as well.. I build my own frames for foundation less and often get the wood for free.. 2x4's to 2x12's are cheap when you only need them to be 19 inches long at the most. You can also often get really good prices on boards that are split etc.. but you prob know most of that if you have been building boxes... sorry.
I make my top bars pointed on the bottom, and then rub, or paint melted beeswax on the point.. I know other fellas who dont put anything on their foundation.. I just like to put it on there to sort of "point" out to the bees where its supposed to go.
I also use all mediums, which makes things easier to swap around, as well as lending a certain amount of strength to the foundation less wax.
The hives I first started with had rite cell, and it worked perfectly fine. Its still in the garage gathering dust and looks useable to this day.
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and I will disagree. I hate foundationless. I have tried it. When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.
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and I will disagree. I hate foundationless. I have tried it. When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.
? "Frames" are too fragile? My frames are heavier than anything you will buy that HAS foundation in them.. not too sure HOW a frame collapses... I have seen NEW wax collapse when it was hot and it was mishandled.. but in my mediums I can extract honey by spinning them without blowing them out, so a "frame" collapsing sounds like something wasnt done right???
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I would agree with RH and Old Mech, you have some drawn comb. Put a foundationless frame in between each drawn this will help them draw it straight. You will still need to keep a check on them, if you have a frame that's not correct fix it then. Press it gently to get it straight. When extracting new foundationless frames you will start and run a little slower. After they get it anchored good it works fine. Good luck to you and your bees.
I bought some foundation this year, my first foundation, I got rite cell had a little problem on a couple of hives. They didn't want to draw it, the other hives did fine and after a while they all drew it out.
Joe
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Now I've got another question. What are you all talking about? What is foundationless or drawn comb?
Really feeling like the beginner now!! LOL
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I've got to buy foundations for the first time. I've been building hives and components for a Beek but now have two hives of my own and have been given the foundations for the hives that I now have. I was given "PermaDent" foundations and find that it is 76 bucks to ship 100 to me in Hawai'i. That said, I find that Mann Lake sells a box of 100 Rite-Cell on Amazon for 99 bucks with free shipping.
My Beek friend says that he only uses the PermaDent because of delamination problems with repeated use of the Rite-Cell foundation.
What are your experiences? My Beek has only had bees for about 20 months and was wondering if he could just be repeating something that he heard rather than having experienced any problems himself.
Now I've got another question. What are you all talking about? What is foundationless or drawn comb?
Really feeling like the beginner now!! LOL
Well alrightty then, Simply put "drawn comb" is comb that has been fully worked and is ready for use. Working with your friend, the beekeeper, have you seen frames with brood or honey? Those are drawn comb.
Foundationless systems allow bees to produce their own drawn comb without the use of foundation as a guide. This is what the bees do when they don't have us to bother them. In our hives we direct the bees to make comb on frames so that they can be removed. The difficult trick to getting natural comb is to get the bees to put the comb where we want it, on the frames in such a way that the frames can be removed. Without foundation and left on their own bees will produce comb that can cross from frame to frame. Removing frames from a hive like this requires the use of a good sized sharp knife (ask me how I know). There are different methods to guide the bees to draw comb in a foundationless system but it is easier to guide them if you have drawn frames to place on either side of the empty (foundationless) frames.
There is a lot of information contained on this forum about this subject. Search and read, I'm just trying to define the terms. I hope this kinda clears it up for you.
I'm not familiar with permadent but it sounds like another form of plastic foundation. That is a whole other subject.
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For terminology, try here.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,5058.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,5058.0.html)
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Royall,
I think you may be confusing or merging the term Frames with "Foundations"...Often, if not always?...Plastic frames come with plastic foundation as an all in one unit. However, many people (including me) use wooden frames. At that point you have basically three options, insert plastic foundation into that frame, or wax foundation, or no foundation (foundationless).
The bees will use either the plastic or wax foundation as a starting point/guide to draw comb...Or, simply the top, or starter strip of an empty frame in the case of foundationless to draw the comb.
Hope this helps! :)
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and I will disagree. I hate foundationless. I have tried it. When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.
? "Frames" are too fragile? My frames are heavier than anything you will buy that HAS foundation in them.. not too sure HOW a frame collapses... I have seen NEW wax collapse when it was hot and it was mishandled.. but in my mediums I can extract honey by spinning them without blowing them out, so a "frame" collapsing sounds like something wasnt done right???
I didn't say frames collapes. We are talking about foundation here not frames
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I've not had any fragility issues with foundationless frames or comb since 2007. I use all mediums.
If a Beek wants to run such a system, using some frames with foundation (as guides to be removed later) until enough frames are naturally drawn out can get a good start on the endeavor. I pretty much converted to 90+% foundationless over the course of two seasons. Now I just keep some foundation around, placed temporally to keep things straight, mostly whenever establishing new colonies, while the bees make their own drawn comb with cell sizes of their choosing.............
They know best IMHO, who am I to dictate cell size to a honeybee? :)
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I bought a farm about 9 years ago and in the back of the barn was a giant pile of old shallow frames. Hundreds of them. A couple of years ago I decided to make some use of them but not as shallows. They were only nailed so I took about 100 of them apart. tossed the end bars, built new deep end bars and reassembled them as deeps. I gave each one a starter strip of thin surplus and put them to work. The bee's drew them all out quickly. Winter always bring some deadout so while pulling these out of the field. These foundationless frames not being maintained by bee's and heavy with honey collapsed. What a waste. I still have a bunch of these in the field. I guess if I had only a few colonies kept at home this could have been avoided but my operation is spread out in 4 townships. A sheet of rite cell is under a buck and can standup to some abuse.
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If you had wired the frames, they would have built right over the wires and the comb would have held up.
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I would have just used the shallows as is, putting them in shallow supers and keeping complete colonies in them. Three shallows is about one deep in volume. Nothing would be wrong with keeping bees in shallows (some Beeks do), they'd be lighter that's for sure and at this stage of my own game....lighter is better :)
Deeps used for honey, especially w/ unsecured foundationless frames equals a potential mess IMO.
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Royall,
Hang in there. Your thread hasn't been hijacked. This is how much information is distributed here. You just have to sift through and glean what you want to use. If something is not understood or you need clarification, simply jump in there and ask.
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Royall,
Hang in there. Your thread hasn't been hijacked. This is how much information is distributed here. You just have to sift through and glean what you want to use. If something is not understood or you need clarification, simply jump in there and ask.
X:X Right on! Its easy to forget that there as many ways to keep bees as there are keepers (many more than there are ways to skin a cat... :-D) and we are all capable of redirecting most any topic. Take what you need, leave what you don't.
NOTE; re, Mann Lake. I love their FREE shipping! I buy ALL my sugar from them........
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X:X Right on! Its easy to forget that there as many ways to keep bees as there are keepers (many more than there are ways to skin a cat... :-D) and we are all capable of redirecting most any topic. Take what you need, leave what you don't.
This my friend is as good of Forum/Beekeeping advice as I've ever seen. :-D
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X:X Right on! Its easy to forget that there as many ways to keep bees as there are keepers (many more than there are ways to skin a cat... :-D) and we are all capable of redirecting most any topic. Take what you need, leave what you don't.
This my friend is as good of Forum/Beekeeping advice as I've ever seen. :-D
Isn't that what we all do? ;)
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and I will disagree. I hate foundationless. I have tried it. When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.
? "Frames" are too fragile? My frames are heavier than anything you will buy that HAS foundation in them.. not too sure HOW a frame collapses... I have seen NEW wax collapse when it was hot and it was mishandled.. but in my mediums I can extract honey by spinning them without blowing them out, so a "frame" collapsing sounds like something wasnt done right???
I didn't say frames collapes. We are talking about foundation here not frames
When a colony dies which seems to always happen sooner or later the frames are to fragile and often collapse.
Well I confuse easily.. My wife manages to confuse me half a dozen times a day so I am used to it...
Fresh new wax is soft, and unless its secured all the way around it takes a lot of care when handling it. (especially when its hot out) Once it starts to darken it is a bit easier to deal with. Even fresh wax that is secured all the way around is pretty stable, but once it hardens a bit it takes a pretty good goof to get it to let go. (like dropping it complete with the bees on board.. NOT good!! yes I have)
I like all mediums because it allows me to move frames around easier, and the wax is more stable, less span, so more strength. Not to mention the fact that I am getting older each day and they are lighter than deeps...
I use the small cell plastic frame/foundation as spacers/guides when starting a new hive, then remove them as they begin to fill out the foundationless frames... I have found that they go very quickly for the foundationless and leave the plastic alone, which allows me to use it as a guide to get them started, then replace the plastic with empty wood frames later.
I had heard a lot of horror stories about foundationless, and it took a bit for friends/local beeks, to get me to use them, Then it took a bit of getting used to "squaring" the odd comb that didnt quite follow the point on the frame... Once that experience was.... experienced, and handled, I am very glad I stuck with it. The versatility of all mediums, and the ability to swap out frames in brood boxes/supers PLUS being able to cut out queen cells or MAKE queen cells to cut out using foundationless had me wishing I had started that way. I only have two hives left with deeps, and by spring I hope to get those swapped out and cut down.
Everyone likes something different, and much of what you do depends on how involved you want to get. Building my own frames costs me .17 cents a frame to make. (IF I have to buy the wood!) The last batch I made numbered 500. At the cost of wood frames and Ritecell.. i saved over 900 dollars on JUST those frames.. which, to me is reason enough to go foundationless.. and I wont get into the other controversial reasons.. suffice it to say, that you should read everything you can, take everything with a grain of salt, and decide how YOU think your bees will benefit the most.. The saying goes, that if you ask two beekeepers the same question, you will get three different answers.. I tend to think that if you asked two beeks the same question twice, you would get eight different answers!!!
The hardest part of being a Beek, is deciphering, translating, and decrypting those answers, and then applying your own method!"
What I posted is working WELL for me... but ask me again in a year.
:-D
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when ever foundationless is mentioned the whole foundationless led by MB jumps in to tell the new guy how great it is. Its the only way to go and if you listen to us you will be chemical free. In the 7 years I have been here I have seen literally 100s of newbees make it through there first year and crash on the 2nd. Many of them quit at that time. No one wants to question MB. I for one am not on that bandwagon and not afraid to say so. I dont tell the new people that my way is the only way. Its just the way I do things and will continue to Useing the shallow frames as someone stated above was not a option as I use double deeps and always have. I have over 250 of them and along with my deep nuc's have over 3000 frames to fit them so its not the time to change. For supers I do use shallows for comb honey but only make about 10 boxes a year. The rest are mediums and number is close to 300 with 9 frames each. Thats about 2700 frames About 500 of those are honey super cell drone comb and the rest are rite-cell
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Foundationless beekeeping began long before MB was even born. MB is a knowlegeable Beek but he'd be the first to admit that he didn't invent it. Saint Lorenzo anyone? But even he didn't invent the concept...............BEES DID! 8-)
However, manufactured 'foundation' (and its related controversial issues) is relatively new to beekeeping and has a majority number of Beeks riding its 'bandwagon' .....many more than the foundationless crowd one can safely assume.....for now anyway.
I'd bet there are many (a majority?) New Beeks who give up after a season or two, and that it has little to do with where they got their advise from. Frankly, Not everyone has the will to carry on with honeybees. So much like their die-off bees, or endless swarms (thanks newbeeks!) the new beekeeper quit rate is likely pretty steep as well.
danno: I didn't see anyone suggesting above that 'their way was the only way' in fact the opposite was implied...............Where'd that come from :?
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I didn't say MB invented anything and as most know there is most likely nothing that has not been tried before. Even if it was never put into print I would guarantee someone or more like many have tried it. Go to the top and search foundationless and that would answer your last question. Just look at this thread, Royall asked about buys permadent or rite-cell Instantly after I said I use rite-cell 5 posts show up saying go foundationless. He didn't ask what anyones thought about foundationless
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Guess us foundationless folks shouldn't bother to comment then. Is that your recommendation?
I can live with that.................for a while. :-D Gonna be a LONG Winter.................
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I didn't say MB invented anything and as most know there is most likely nothing that has not been tried before. Even if it was never put into print I would guarantee someone or more like many have tried it. Go to the top and search foundationless and that would answer your last question. Just look at this thread, Royall asked about buys permadent or rite-cell Instantly after I said I use rite-cell 5 posts show up saying go foundationless. He didn't ask what anyones thought about foundationless
Hey danno,
I'm not an advocate of natural cell or foundationless. The reason I suggested it was the shipping costs to Hawaii is prohibitive. That's all. I was just trying to save Royall some money. I'm gonna give it, foundationless, a try this year and I felt that it would be an improvement over any plastic foundation. I don't have as much experience as you but what little I've experienced with plastic foundation was dismal no matter how I presented it to my bees. Could be my delivery method. I see that you have had success I would like to know how you introduce plastic foundation to your colonies.
Ray
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Lots of information here. I now remember reading a bit about foundationless when I first started building components for my Beek. I just forgot about what it was. I seems to me that there are pros and cons to both. Just about like any topic in any forum on any subject where it is about RC planes or Scuba diving.
I'll most likely stay with the plastic for now as that is what my Beek is doing and I'll be needing his help over the next several months. I believe (might be wrong) that is what the Beeks in my area are doing to. Why? Haven't a clue.
The idea of going with the smaller medium size boxes sounds like a good idea too. I'm not getting any younger (just turned 65) and the thought of packing around, what?, 90# box of honey sounds a little daunting!
I don't mind the thread hijack at all..... it is another way of learning! LOL
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I'll have to agree with Danno on this. Especially as a new beekeeper, Royall stick with foundation. If you want to try foundationless at a later time you will have the ability to start slow. If you go all in now, you will most likely end up with a mess.
You will hear all the proponents tell you how great it is and push off the drawbacks as minor. I've been around beekeeping a long time and can remember when essential oils where the "golden" answer to overcome varroa. A lot of folks where subconsciously propping up their results because inside they wanted it to be the answer. I was one of the few who took a lot of heat for my skepticism based on my experience. You can see similar issues today with first year beekeepers that try non-standard varroa methods and claim victory after the first year, when in reality 95% of package bees have no varroa issues the first year with no treatment.
Anyway, back to the subject and your question. I switched to Mann Lake Rite Cell about 3 years ago and have no regrets. I have had zero problems with it. Trust me, I'm as frugal as the next beekeeper, but foundationless provided more headaches than the savings for me.
When/If you do try foundationless, do yourself a favor and put at least one wire in the frames for support. This will significantly help prevent comb failure. It won't help with overdrawn combs, but that is another issue.
I only use foundationless in my swarm traps and only use wired frames.
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Well I sure don't want to start a fight over all this but I must respectfully disagree :).
IMHO; If one is interested in running a FOUNDATIONLESS system 'there is no better' time to do so than at the very beginning, sure wish I had ;) A BEEK can learn a lot just watching the natural process of drawing out comb w/out the use of............. :?
It should be a reasonable expectation that those offering advise on 'certain' aspects or methods of beekeeping have also been 'successful' using those methods, no?
If one is unsuccessful with the implementation of a particular system it makes perfect sense to steer others away from that system ONLY for that reason. However, while it might make sense it lacks credibility in the real world and will raise the hackles of those who ARE successful at said methods.
Is that not a more reasonable approach? Just trying to keep options OPEN. (I've never had any reason to use wire in my foundationless system, I use all mediums)
NO OFFENSE INTENDED!
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My first bees were from Wolf Creek Apiaries. These were advertised as 4.9mm bees and I believe that they were. I read up on small cell but missed the part about needing drawn comb to help guide the foundationless frames. End result, a mess that required a 10" knife to resolve.
I just placed an order with Walter Kelly for 200 foundationless frames, 100 normal width, 100 narrow. The reason for this purchase is so I can "Open the Brood Nest" as a swarm deterrent in the spring and run 9 frames in my 8 frame brood boxes.
My point is, Whether or not you use any system successfully or not, we all could use a dose of flexibility. I learned two principals that I apply to figuring out problems.
1--If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got.
2--One definition of Insanity is Doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.
One of the most advantageous results about being a member of this forum is the diversity of systems our members use. This puts almost unlimited possible solutions just a click away.
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8-) RHBee!
KYBO or Keeping Your Broodnests Open. That in a nutshell is our primary duty as Beeks during every season but winter, probably Fall too :).
KYBO; It is an art in and of itself within the practice of beekeeping.
Note; I also buy my foundationless frames from Walter Kelly, 1-200 at a time.
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IMHO; If one is interested in running a FOUNDATIONLESS system 'there is no better' time to do so than at the very beginning, sure wish I had ;) A BEEK can learn a lot just watching the natural process of drawing out comb w/out the use of............. :?
I assume you also advocate learning to swim by jumping off a boat in the ocean :?
It should be a reasonable expectation that those offering advise on 'certain' aspects or methods of beekeeping have also been 'successful' using those methods, no?
If one is unsuccessful with the implementation of a particular system it makes perfect sense to steer others away from that system ONLY for that reason. However, while it might make sense it lacks credibility in the real world and will raise the hackles of those who ARE successful at said methods.
First of all, I have had success using foundationless frames, I have also had many headaches with it. I have found foundationless to not be worth the effort, and have found no benefit from it, you can have your own opinion. Yes sometimes you can get bad drawn comb on foundation, but nothing to the extent of foundationless. Why can I put an empty super of foundationless on two adjacent hives and one will draw nice frames and the other will overdraw every other? Why does Kelly sell two different width foundationless frames but only 1 width foundation frame?
No one is telling anyone not no try foundationless, we are just giving them the "other" side to your "greatest thing since sliced bread" sales pitch. If you know me at all, I continually tell folks to experiment and try things for themselves. Not to take advice from anybody as concrete way to do things, but figure out what works best for THEM.
Also keep in mind, just like everything else in beekeeping, it comes down to location and climate. Some areas are better for comb building than others. My particular climate is not advantageous to comb building.
Is that not a more reasonable approach? Just trying to keep options OPEN. (I've never had any reason to use wire in my foundationless system, I use all mediums)
Like I said, no one saying not to try it, we are just suggesting not jumping in feet first based upon OUR experience.
You may have never had a comb failure, but from my experience and folks I talk too, you are the first foundationless person that I have heard this from. Perhaps you can advise how to get them to attach comb the the sides of the frame. This is what my experience has produced.
(http://beevac.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Picture_012.jpg)
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Robo; Oh man, you didn't see that part about NO OFFENSE INTENDED, heh?
Yep, that's EXACTLY how I learned to swim...and I'm still a pretty good one ;)
Sure I've had 'some' issues with comb, but no more than I had when using foundation and all deeps. Those 'issues' made me a better Beek IMO.
Actually you 'are' telling people NOT to try foundationless (see above), apparently due to 'your' past and current experience. NOTHING wrong with pointing out our failures. That along with our successes will hopefully help someone make an informed decision on which direction to go. Its all about choices, no?
BLAMING IMPLIES INTENT.....where's the intent? Your tone (at least what I'm reading) seems confrontational. Is that intentional?
I'm ALSO offering a different opinion based on my own observations. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It doesn't have to be a debate unless you make it one.
OK, if you read my posts you'd agree that we both offer the same advise in that there is NO RIGHT or WRONG, we all do what we do and ideally share it in a manner that isn't offensive.....at least its what I 'try' to do.
I've likely said it over 100 times on this forum; THE ONLY EXPERTS ARE THE BEES. You'll have to show me where I've said something else.
Again; NO OFFENSE INTENDED.....maybe I should make that my tag line :-D
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Robo,
I didn't have an option to order narrow end bars when I ordered frame assemblies. To get the narrow end bars I had to order them as repair parts. This drove up the per frame cost. I asked that the narrow option be offered for all frames. I found an added benefit is the use of solid bottom bars would be a reduction of hiding places for SHB. In my colonies I've found that the grooved or slotted bottom bars are favored by SHB along with every other nook or cranny the bees can't patrol.
Ray
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Your tone (at least what I'm reading) seems confrontational.
You sound like my wife. Doesn't matter what I say, it is the perceived tone that described my true intent :-)
Bottom line is you suggest jumping into something full bore, while I'm suggesting experimenting on a small scale.
If everyone liked chocolate, they wouldn't make vanilla.....
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What a shame to add ridicule to an opinion :( That's the way to get ones point across...........
robo; The truth will always depend on where one stands. "Stand for something or fall for anything." Thanks for your open-mindness... :? Regardless what you may assume to know about me, you still remain one of my personal favorite posters.
NO OFFENSE but I'm gonna move on.
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>What are your experiences?
I just threw out several hundred Mann Lake Rite cell. They are not the cell size I want...
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What a shame to add ridicule to an opinion :( That's the way to get ones point across...........
robo; The truth will always depend on where one stands. "Stand for something or fall for anything." Thanks for your open-mindness... :? Regardless what you may assume to know about me, you still remain one of my personal favorite posters.
NO OFFENSE but I'm gonna move on.
Wooo! My intent was not to ridicule, but to just add a little humor. My apologies if it came across wrong. The purpose of the forum is to share our different opinions and let the readers come to their own conclusions.
No offense taken, we all have different experiences and the diversity is what makes this place what it is.
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>What are your experiences?
I just threw out several hundred Mann Lake Rite cell. They are not the cell size I want...
you should recycle
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woo, hope thats all over with..
I have a hard time getting my bees to draw on plastic. I have tried spraying the frames with sugar water, relocating them etc... If I take out a frame with plastic foundation and drop in a foundationless frame they often have it started and well underway by next inspection..
To be honest, I like foundation because its easier to deal with, but my bees dont seem to like it as MUCH as making their own, and yes, it can be a pain to deal with at times. The truth is, it doesnt matter if you start with ritecell, or foundationless.. if you use rite cell, and eventually try foundationless, the learning process is much the same. you still have to learn how to straighten crooked comb no matter when you decide to drop an empty frame in. However, i will agree, that it may be easier not to have to deal with that the first year or two while you figure everything else out.
Personally.. I WISH I had started that way, and started with all mediums, some of you may be perfectly happy with how you started out and continue.. I wasnt.
I like the money savings of making my own foundationless frames. I like being able to pull honey from a super and drop it into the brood box, I like the weight difference, etc etc... That doesnt mean anyone else has to like it, or do it.
I like natural beekeeping, but I still use hopguard. I am not an advocate that professes any SINGLE method.. I still have some plastic foundation (4.9 mm ) in all my hives. I use it to help guide the foundationless frames, so I am not a purist there either.
The one thing I DO believe, is that if we keep treating, we will never have better bees.... but sometimes you KNOW, if you dont help them you will lose them.
It is hard to judge TONE when reading... I tend to say things I find humerus, only to find out my wife has no sense of humor. Living with her helps me a lot when TYPING....
I originally melted my wax, and painted the melted wax onto my foundationless frames.. a local beek told me to STOP wasting wax. Take the block of beeswax, and RUB it on the frame. He told me if I wanted my bees to attach the comb on all sides, to RUB it onto all four sides, not just the top... In most cases it seems to work, I still have a few frames that are only partially attached, but rotating them inward seems to help... something about the frame being "primary" in the hive as it was explained to me.....
The methods of each beekeeper are as many and varied as the stars in the night sky. PLEASE post your methods, and your advice, and let everyone else do the same!!
I will reiterate that I WISH, I had started with foundationless. I would have saved several hundred dollars, and I would have learned how to deal with the problems much sooner.
I am no woodworker, but I have found building hives, and frames to be well within my capability. It gives me MORE to do with my bees, fills me with satisfaction when my bees accept my work, and it saves me money...
It is hard to disagree with success. If what you are doing WORKS for you, then THAT is what you post about, and how "I" learn different methods or new ways of managing my bees. I dont intend to make anyone angry. EVER!! But I post about what is working for me, what I LIKE, and what I wish I had done to start out with, HOPING to save someone else the trouble.
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OldMech,
All good points, especially your point about the multitude of different techniques that Beeks utilize and the importance of each Beek finding "what works for them".
I'm early in the game of being a Beek (first year) with plenty left to learn, but what I stated with and seems to be working for me is all mediums with wax foundation. Following this thread has made me realize, I think that puts me in a bit of a minority and has got me wondering...How many folks use WAX foundation? Thinking I might throw up a poll with that question...
At least from this thread, I get the impression that folks either opt for plastic foundation because of the convenience and durability and aren't discouraged by the cost.
OR
They like the significant cost savings of going foundationless and think the time and effort to keep the comb straight are worth the necessary efforts.
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I'd be willing to bet that wax foundation tops the list with the majority of U.S Beeks due to price and availability ( and its inclusion in most any beginners kit). The various plastics are likely next, followed by foundationless.
All Beeks used to be foundationless (it wasn't that long ago). Adding foundation (heck, adding all kinds of stuff) is what is relatively new in the world of beekeeping.
OldMech; You are one of my new heroes :cheer:
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I'm gonna try foundationless in the future. However, right now with the lack of experience I have I'm taking the easy road.
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I'm gonna try foundationless in the future. However, right now with the lack of experience I have I'm taking the easy road.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as an 'easy' road :-\ The process is relatively simple. As Spring build up occurs start manipulating frames by placing an 'empty' between two drawn ones...and on and on until all that;s remaining is foundationless frames. Use those manipulated (removed) frames to make up NUCs or expand the colony broodnest. The choice is always the beekeepers :)
As Was stated above, it took me about two seasons for the complete conversion. Can it be done quicker? Much depends on the availability of drawn comb to keep things straight. However, there is nothing wrong with using the odd foundationed frame for the same purpose of keeping things straight. I still do ;).
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As much as this thread has wandered, it has been chock full of information (along with strong opinions :-D).
New Beek here as well. First season. It has been an interesting ride thus far as I have been learning on the fly. I AM very happy I chose to go all medium 8 frame boxes as I am not getting any younger and my OCD likes the modular ability. I have a mix of frames, some wood with wax, some wood with plastic, some all plastic. And now I am considering going foundationless .....sorta. I plan to use a starter strip of the 4.9 foundation.
My observations: 2 captured swarms. Swarm one is classic Italians. They were captured late May, started on wood framed plastic and drew it out without argument. Swarm 2, captured late July, started on the all plastic frames.....They hate them. I swapped a couple that they refused to work with some wax foundation plus added a couple frames of brood to kick start the numbers. They did better. But I noticed that these bees are visibly smaller (for the most part - remember there were some additions from the other hive) then Swarm one. I suspect a feral hive that have already returned to smaller size bees. IF it makes it through the winter, this will be the hive I have hopes that will regress to the Small cell quickly and naturally. As there are some drawn frames, the every other frame additions in the spring should allow them to build half foundationless....and keep it straight.
Another observation is these smaller bees do tend to fly during more inclement weather then hive one. Both are still hauling in the pollen.
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I plan to use a starter strip of the 4.9 foundation.
No need to use 4.9 for starter strips. They won't use it as a guide. If that is what you already have then no harm, just don't want you to spend a premium for 4.9 just to make starter strips.
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In the past I got regular frames to get drawn foundationless with just a guide bar, I did find out that they need to be wired.
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In the past I got regular frames to get drawn foundationless with just a guide bar, I did find out that they need to be wired.
Would a horizontal wire ......or two on a medium frame offer that extra bit of support??? Will they build around it incorporating it in the comb? Can I use SS safety wire? I have a wad of it here already.
I bought 10 sheets of the 4.9 foundation this last fall to try next spring. I thought that using it as strips might encourage the smaller bees to stay small. Allowing the larger Italians to regress on their own by allowing them natural comb was my secondary plan.
Still learning and I tend to be one to ask "why?", "how come?" and "I wonder.....?" Drove my folks crazy. :evil:
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Would a horizontal wire ......or two on a medium frame offer that extra bit of support???
My experience has been one horizontal wire on medium (or deep) makes a huge difference. More than one is just a marginal improvement.
Will they build around it incorporating it in the comb?
Yes.
(http://beevac.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/housel3.jpg)
Can I use SS safety wire?
I don't see why not, a little overkill, but heck, I've done cutouts where they built the comb over romex.
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As much as this thread has wandered, it has been chock full of information (along with strong opinions :-D).
New Beek here as well. First season. It has been an interesting ride thus far as I have been learning on the fly. I AM very happy I chose to go all medium 8 frame boxes as I am not getting any younger and my OCD likes the modular ability. I have a mix of frames, some wood with wax, some wood with plastic, some all plastic. And now I am considering going foundationless .....sorta. I plan to use a starter strip of the 4.9 foundation.
My observations: 2 captured swarms. Swarm one is classic Italians. They were captured late May, started on wood framed plastic and drew it out without argument. Swarm 2, captured late July, started on the all plastic frames.....They hate them. I swapped a couple that they refused to work with some wax foundation plus added a couple frames of brood to kick start the numbers. They did better. But I noticed that these bees are visibly smaller (for the most part - remember there were some additions from the other hive) then Swarm one. I suspect a feral hive that have already returned to smaller size bees. IF it makes it through the winter, this will be the hive I have hopes that will regress to the Small cell quickly and naturally. As there are some drawn frames, the every other frame additions in the spring should allow them to build half foundationless....and keep it straight.
Another observation is these smaller bees do tend to fly during more inclement weather then hive one. Both are still hauling in the pollen.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your swarms and comb drawing. A swarm hived in May is a lot more likely to draw comb on anything then a swarm hived in July because of the availability of nectar at that point of the season and they need nectar to draw comb. Don't get me wrong I'm not defending using plastic because I don't use it. But that comparison is unfair to plastic.
And to disagree with Robo they will use 4.9 strips as a starter and will draw what they need from there down. You may get different size cells. worker cells, drone cells, honey cells and even a bonus queen cell on that frame with the 4.9 starter.
And while I'm here talking about it I don't use wire as some say is absolute. The frame Robo showed that is not attached is a brood frame. it's is not unusual for my bees to not attach the comb to the sides of a brood frame and I don't see a problem with that. They will build honey frames different and will most of the time attach the comb to the sides and bottom and you can put them in an extractor and extract the honey.
And one more observation from my Tn. bees. putting empty frames between drawn frames to get them drawn works good in the brood nest. But doing that in a honey super will sometimes get you two fat combs on each side of the empty frame. I have had better luck putting the drawn frames in the middle of the super and adding the empties on each side. When they fill the middle and need more comb they will spread and build comb one or two frames at a time with less problems.
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And to disagree with Robo they will use 4.9 strips as a starter and will draw what they need from there down. You may get different size cells. worker cells, drone cells, honey cells and even a bonus queen cell on that frame with the 4.9 starter.
Not sure we disagree. If you want to get picky, then yes the couple of rows of cells on the starter MAY be drawn out at 4.9. My point was that giving them 4.9 starter strips will not persuade them to draw smaller cells on comb they draw from scratch.
And while I'm here talking about it I don't use wire as some say is absolute. The frame Robo showed that is not attached is a brood frame. it's is not unusual for my bees to not attach the comb to the sides of a brood frame and I don't see a problem with that. They will build honey frames different and will most of the time attach the comb to the sides and bottom and you can put them in an extractor and extract the honey.
It is a personal choice, but most find it worth the added protection. The first time you flip up a frame and the comb fall out you will regret not wiring. This may be more of an issue for experienced beekeepers who have years of experience with flipping a frame to inspect the other side. If you don't have this habit, then the exposure may be reduced. With that said, I have had comb failures just pulling the frame out (new soft comb and lots of honey)
And one more observation from my Tn. bees. putting empty frames between drawn frames to get them drawn works good in the brood nest. But doing that in a honey super will sometimes get you two fat combs on each side of the empty frame. I have had better luck putting the drawn frames in the middle of the super and adding the empties on each side. When they fill the middle and need more comb they will spread and build comb one or two frames at a time with less problems.
This is my biggest issue with foundationless and why I don't do it for the most part.
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MsCarol,
Robo has seen them build around Romex, house wire. I've seen them build around twigs and branches. If you have the safety wire I'm sure that it would work. The frame wire is much less expensive and thinner. I've also read that some folks have used fishing line. The trick is to get it tight.
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OldMech; You are one of my new heroes :cheer:
Ohhhh no.. no hero stuff... heros tend to fall hard when they fall.. I'm not afraid of heights, but I am afraid of the landing!!!!!
My experience has been one horizontal wire on medium (or deep) makes a huge difference. More than one is just a marginal improvement.
Robo, I may try that. I havent had much trouble, but adding a single wire would be like having insurance..... without the arguments from the insurance agent.
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I'm amazed at what I've read so far. I do think I'm going to stay with the plastic that my Beek has started me with for awhile. He keeps saying "use Platicell" and I'm leaning towards Rite cell, primarily due to shipping. What is the difference between plasticell and Rite cell?
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I'm amazed at what I've read so far. I do think I'm going to stay with the plastic that my Beek has started me with for awhile. He keeps saying "use Platicell" and I'm leaning towards Rite cell, primarily due to shipping. What is the difference between plasticell and Rite cell?
Royall,
Take this advice with a grain of salt because I've never used either...Or any plastic foundation for that matter. But I'd be willing to bet that the difference between those two are similar to the differences between a Ford and a Chevy pickup. Each has a passionate following that will swear that their choice is far superior. When in reality, both are darn fine trucks, with very little "real" differences, either of which will get the job done.
Good Luck!
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Moots; again I applaud your very rational advise. Polite and to the point X:X X:X
I'm gonna buy a NISSAN next time ;) (would that be like going foundationless?) :-D
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:laugh: agreed!
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wow! threads like this don't usually get by me. looks like all the guys up north are getting cabin fever already.
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I'm amazed at what I've read so far. I do think I'm going to stay with the plastic that my Beek has started me with for awhile. He keeps saying "use Platicell" and I'm leaning towards Rite cell, primarily due to shipping. What is the difference between plasticell and Rite cell?
The only really difference is the amount of wax sprayed on the sheets. I have bought plasticel and had to roll bee's wax on in I have never had to do that with rite-cel
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Thanks again for all the information. One last question regarding Rite Cell and Plasitcell. I noticed that on the Plasticell, there are two corners clipped off and Rite Cell don't. What is the reason for the corners to be clipped on the Plasticell, and is it important?
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Rite Cell has score holes if you want to break the corner off. So the choice is yours. I believe it is if you want to give them a passage through the frame to the adjacent without having to go around. I don't bother breaking it off.
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That's good to know Robo..... Thanks!
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Often on foundationless you will see those corners missing.. some claim its communication or travel holes.. Not sure why the extra 3/8ths of an inch would matter but the bees seem to think it does........
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Often on foundationless you will see those corners missing.. some claim its communication or travel holes.. Not sure why the extra 3/8ths of an inch would matter but the bees seem to think it does........
Travel and/or communication holes would be my guess as well. My Long Hives frames can be loaded with such holes going from one end to the other, not usually in a straight line. Some frames have just one or three, some (those closer to the centers) can have many.