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Author Topic: Questions about bees in orchards  (Read 5247 times)

Offline jdesq

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Questions about bees in orchards
« on: December 16, 2011, 05:52:46 pm »
I have been keeping bees for about 8 years. This year my son and I bought a 20 acre apple orchard. I will need to grow my apiary from 6 hives to around 20 just for the pollination factor and also  need alot more honey to sell in our store at the orchard. My question is, will I have to move the bees out of the orchard completely after petal drop or is there a way I can leave them on the edge of the orchard and not have to worry about spraying.  I feel like the drift will harm them no matter what. Though as I drive past other orchards I do see hives set up year round. Anyone have any experience in this?  I would love to leave them there, and the school kids that come for tours would like to see them from afar. I'm torn on what to do.

Offline iddee

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 06:26:56 pm »
That all depends on what and how sprayed. Spray a 4 hour half life after dark and they will be fine. Spray at noon on a sunny day and disaster......
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 06:38:38 pm »
Spray a 4 hour half life after dark and they will be fine.

I don't understand how you can say this.  If there is a four hour half-life, then 12 hours later there will still be 1/8th of the poison left.  How do you know that 1/8th strength poison will not still kill or damage the bees?

If you must spray, then close up the hives until almost all the poison is gone.  Moving the hives won't help unless you move them several miles away.
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline iddee

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 08:58:10 pm »
From my understanding, half life is the effective time of a product to do what it is designed to do. If I'm wrong, show me.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline hardwood

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 09:34:58 pm »
Not to mention the application is after petal drop...in theory the bees wouldn't even be in contact with the poison.

As much as I hate our use of pesticides I still need to learn to make a living despite them.

Scott
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Offline Hemlock

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 03:01:04 am »
Had to jump in here,

Half-life!!!???  ←we'll get back to this

Pesticides,
Orchards are usually sprayed with a dormant oil before bud break.  No Flowers

During bloom there will be NO spray applications!

After petal fall the insecticide & fungicide applications will commence and be repeated every two weeks.  No Flowers.

Orchard growers Know they depend on bees for their eventual income.  They will contract out with beeks to bring bees in for the bloom period.  I cant imagine they'd ever spray an orchard with bees in it.  

If you OWN the orchard put the hives ON a trailer.  Move it in for bloom then MOVE it out before applications begin.  That's what the pros do....and all the farmers i know.

---

Half -life
,  Don't look at it that way; it's misleading.  If you want to discuss threat to bees look at 'exposure'.  If the bees are not present during an application then they can not be exposed.  All such pesticides have an 'REI' which is the Restricted Entry Interval.  That is the period of time the pesticide needs to dry, settle, or stabilize on or around the target crop.  (If during that time you brushed up against a treated apple tree the pesticide would get on you.  That's exposure.  After that time period the pesticide would stay on the target and not get on you.  Even after precipitation the pesticide will be rain-fast.)  Once the pesticide is stable a bee could land on an apple but not be exposed.

However, the bees are there to get pollen and nectar from the blooms.  After the bloom period there will NOT be any forage for the bees anyway.  So the bees won't be there anymore.  A pesticide on an apple won't be a threat to a bee looking for nectar SOMEWHERE ELSE.  Bees want flowers not fruit.

Drift,
Can be an issue.  Caution, professionalism, and common sense will spare you any hassles.  Wind & rain are the primary causes of drift.  Fortunately pesticides only work if they reach their target and growers know that too.  Those pesticides are not cheap and them that paid for 'em won't want to waste their money.  That's why applications are done in the wee hours of the day during calm weather.  

YES! There have been accidents.
Yet each event can be tracked to illegal procedures and stupidity.  

So, in this case the bees can be in the orchard during bloom.  After bloom the bees shouldn't be anywhere near that orchard if it is going to be sprayed.

verstehen sie!

---

iddee, "4 hour half-life", where did you get that?  I'd like to know what you mean.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 11:22:39 am by Hemlock »
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Offline Hemlock

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 03:24:07 am »
If you must spray, then close up the hives until almost all the poison is gone.
In an orchard where pesticides are in use the chemicals are on the body of the fruit from the first application 'till 2 weeks (aprox) before harvest.

Moving the hives won't help unless you move them several miles away.
A bit much but that would be fine if not better.  I would be comfortable at 1000 feet from an orchard if the bees are flying.  

A few sprayed fruit trees in the front yard with the bees in the back yard doesn't bother me at all.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 08:23:59 am »
The problem and potential risk is not simple or easy to deal with and straightforward solutions are few.

Bees will collect from the apple trees long after the flowers are gone. Chemicals and pesticides will collect on dew droplets on the leaves and the bees have the potential to collect water from this source, no matter how many water sources are available.

I have never known an orchard to be void of flowers after the trees are done blooming. Dandelions are usually done a period of time after the fruit trees are done. But clover, and most orchards I see have plenty, will still have bees flying and collecting from under the very trees your spraying.

Depending upon the orchard many have ponds where they also pump to fill their tanks while mixing in the chemicals. These ponds, especially if runoff ponds, are great collectors of anything being sprayed in the orchard. Use well water or water from running sources if possible.

Understand that most smaller orchards, like the 20 acre one we are discussing, usually get less than 50% of the pollination from managed bees. The rest of the pollination is from flies, moths, wasps, yellowjackets, and other native pollinators. Kill off the natives and surrounding support pollinators, and you will find out just how much your orchard relies on them. I have many farmers call me and state that they need bees while commenting that they had no pollination activity the previous year. Meaning they though it was OK to spray anything and anytime since no honey bees were around. Apparently they are not listening while getting continuing education for their spray license.

Things I would do....

Spray late in the evening. Any good orchardist knows the spray coverage is better when the winds die down. And your not directly killing off native pollinators even if the bees are removed.

Mow down the dandelion during bloom so they do not compete with apple flower pollination. And mow down the clover prior to spraying after the bloom period. This will keep honey bees and natives seeking better areas to visit.

Never mix chemicals in the sprayer. In recent years, due to gas prices and other cost factors, some farmer have been mixing two or more sprays so they can make one pass for some crops.

Half life means nothing to me. And when the bees collect and mix chemicals within the hive as they collect nectar and pollen, even those labled as "safe" (which is bull at best) can become deadly concoctions. Practice comb rotation and keep beekeeper applied chemicals out of the hives.

The trailer option is a good one....if you have a better location with no sprays. Around here, between other orchards, no till operations, and traditional farming, keeping them in place and doing what you can, might be better than moving them and dealing with someone Else's problems. But if can find a safe out apiary, use it. The recent chemicals that are being used for stink bugs (not sure if you are dealing with them yet) is devastating to bees and natives. The chemical solutions being promoted by the extension services, and the chemical companies, is not going to stop or decrease.

The difference between a dead hive and a hive that had some bee loss, depends upon your efforts. An orchardist or farmer can easily rely or chemicals and keep bees without killing off all the colonies. I keep bees on a good number or orchards yearround. And finding dead hives usually means the farmer did something outside what was best advised.

Good luck!
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Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 11:03:01 am »
From my understanding, half life is the effective time of a product to do what it is designed to do. If I'm wrong, show me.

Where did you get that idea?   Half-life is the time it takes for half of something to disappear.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life

And even if your definition were correct, what the product is designed to do has nothing to do with it's toxicity to bees.  The product may have done what it is supposed to do and still be there and still be toxic.  Isn't that obvious?
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline windfall

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 11:15:23 am »
Apples are tough. The amount,timing, type of sprays varies greatly with location and the growers decision where on the spectrum between organic and conventional they wish to fall.

A small correction to Hemlock, who clearly knows his buisness.

There are routine sprays done during bloom. Most commonly sulfur to control scab. He may have skipped this as I don't believe it is known to have negative effects on bees. Surround PC (a clay barrier film) and a few others also routinely get used around petal fall...but there are lots of fresh blossoms on the trees at "petal fall"
I don't think any of these are meant as insecticides in the traditional sense with the exception of Bt, which has a pretty unique mechanism.

Offline Hemlock

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 11:40:12 am »
The product may have done what it is supposed to do and still be there and still be toxic.  Isn't that obvious?
The two most destructive elements in this world are Sunlight & Oxygen.  Both work to neutralize pesticides.  That is why reapplication is necessary.  There is a level at which the toxin no longer works OR works to build up immunity in a given pest.  That is why IPM is crucial.  It breaks the process of desensitivity which occurs when the chemical is no longer toxic.




windfall,
I read that Label (Surround PC) as soon as i download it.  Is the Bt for the maggot?  Thanks.
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Offline windfall

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 01:09:42 pm »
for us the Bt is to eliminate the first generation of leafrollers, particularly on young trees.

I have not been given good info on the surround and bees and would like to know if anyone has any. Surround is a fine kaolin clay slurry.

Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 02:28:01 pm »
The two most destructive elements in this world are Sunlight & Oxygen.  Both work to neutralize pesticides.  That is why reapplication is necessary.  There is a level at which the toxin no longer works
No argument there.  But the material can still be toxic to bees even after it has done what it was intended to do for fungus or insects that attack apple trees.

Quote
OR works to build up immunity in a given pest.  That is why IPM is crucial.  It breaks the process of desensitivity which occurs when the chemical is no longer toxic.
I think you mean no longer lethal.  If the chemical were no longer toxic, there would be no selective advantage to immunity.
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline Hemlock

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 05:29:13 pm »
I have not been given good info on the surround and bees and would like to know if anyone has any. Surround is a fine kaolin clay slurry.
Do you have a label or MSDS?  If not i can get them to you.  I would think bee info is on the label.

The kaolin is good stuff.  Get enough of it in the ground and cation exchange should increase eventually.  Making more nutrients available to the crop trees.


I think you mean no longer lethal.  If the chemical were no longer toxic, there would be no selective advantage to immunity.
Yeah, pretty much.

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Offline windfall

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 06:04:11 pm »
I do have the company literature, thanks anyhow.

Since the product is non toxic even to it's target species it is considered "safe" for the bees. But part of it's mechanism is to irritate and confuse the target...supposedly they spend alot of time just grooming to get it off....so how much is it irritating the bees I wonder. It mostly goes on at he very tail end of petalfall, so I have not worried about it much.




Offline Hemlock

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 10:46:05 pm »
Here's the data.

" Ecological Effects Hazard Assessment

    Data waivers for avian acute and oral toxicity were requested and supported based on the current widespread agricultural use of kaolin clay as an inert, and the lack of reported avian toxicity incidents associated with this use. The submitted honeybee toxicity and spider monitoring studies are acceptable in support of these new registrations. No additional data are required. The data reported in the honeybee acute contact toxicity study demonstrated that there were no adverse effects resulting from treatment with kaolin. A single mortality observed in the kaolin-treated bees was unrelated to the treatment. The 48-hour LD50 was determined to be >100 μg kaolin/bee and the no effect dose was determined to be 100 μg kaolin/bee. The data reported in the honeybee acute dietary toxicity study demonstrated that there were no adverse effects resulting from treatment with kaolin in the diet. The few observed mortalities in the kaolin-treated bees were unrelated to treatment with kaolin. The dietary LC50 was estimated to be >1000 ppm kaolin, and the no observed effect concentration was estimated to be 1000 ppm kaolin.

    The non-target insect/spider monitoring study in apple trees was inconclusive. The low and variable populations of predators (lady beetles, green lacewings, and spiders) precluded an assessment of the effects (if any) resulting from treatment with kaolin. However, based on data reported in companion studies on honey bees (see Conclusion 3 above), it is not likely that kaolin treatment would cause any adverse effects in non-target predators. Furthermore, additional field monitoring studies with non-target insect/spiders will probably not provide any new information. The Agency does not require any additional data on non-target insects/spiders."

Report available here (Kaolin data )

I like this stuff will see about getting some for the garden.

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Offline windfall

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Re: Questions about bees in orchards
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 10:13:46 am »
Thanks for posting the direct quote. I had not reread the lit since starting my beekeeping,

It is a very useful and flexible organic option. Folks have reported differing levels of success with it. I have not used it in the garden much, but for us it has been a great solution to PC control for apples. Helps with apple sawfly too. You just have to have the time to do lots of applications to build and maintain the film....and be OK with white trees for a month in spring.


I also think when tank mixed with Bt that it extends the short active period of the bacteria by partially shielding them from UV, but that is just a theory.

But like I said before, I do wonder how much (if at all) it irritates or stresses the bees even if non-toxic. I saw some high magnification video once of a plum curculio working awfully hard to groom the micro clay flakes off the body and out of its joints.
Many users have determined it does eventually effect beneficial populations of predators as late season population explosions of mites have been noticed with season long use.

But I am starting to drift from the OP,sorry.

Something the OP might consider in terms of bees and spray in the orchard: How many varieties are planted and their relative bloom times. With lots of varieties your spray schedule is more and more likely to overlap into bloom. We often have trees with fruit set while others are in full bloom. If you are using conventional sprays things can start to get tricky...or so I hear, we have always been organic. But we are also just a small home orchard of 30 trees or so. I doubt our practices would be practical at the commercial scale.

 

anything