Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Stone on July 14, 2011, 09:42:58 pm
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Having kept top bar hives for two years, I figured foundationless Langs would not be too difficult. Was I wrong!
I came out of winter with three hives. Did some splits, got some swarms, did a few cutouts and now I have twelve. I feed all with honey I got from the extractions - let them reprocess it and make it useful for them and me. I do this weekly.
I run all mediums and after I placed the second (or third) medium on top (of the rubber-banded brood from the cutouts) I get comb architecture straight from nightmares - including combs of nectar on the walls, and comb drawn from the bottom of the frame upwards! I even got comb crossing the frames that looked like the rolling hills of the Catskills! I have spent hours trying to fix all this.
At first I thought it was Kelley's frame design (which I do NOT recommend) but then they did it to my popsicle stick top bars too.
I started to put in two end frames with foundation to see what they do next. Waiting to see at this point. I'm extremely discouraged. I don't want to do any extracting. I just want to run foundationless shallows - spaced at 9 frames - for cut comb honey, but I shudder at what I'll get. I can't help thinking I'm doing something wrong but I have no idea what. Need some help.
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foundationless shallows - spaced at 9 frames - for cut comb honey,
you will get wonky comb with 9 frames. the space is wrong and they will try to fix it.
as for 10 frame boxes, it is easiest to start them with one frame of foundation down the middle. it's also important to keep the frames pushed close together in the middle of the box. any extra space should be to the outside.
some hives will just draw bad comb even with foundation, however, i have dumped swarms on boxes of new frames and had them do fine. i suspect you bee space is the issue if all of your hives are having problems.
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You are used to doing long hives (TBH) so you haven't encountered the bottom up building before. When you use foundationless in a lang, you have to "ladder up" by placing a frame of drawn comb in the upper box. If you don't do that, they will often draw it from the bottom up.
Nothing wrong with Kelley frames. I think they will usually work fine even if you use only empty frames. But we always try to alternate new empty foundationless frames with drawn frames and we NEVER have wonky comb. As Kathy said, always push your frames together tightly. And if you do get bad comb, remove it immediately. Bad comb leads to more bad comb.
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The two issues are you need a ladder when you add boxes on top or they may start building from the bottom up. A drawn comb pulled up to the center of the top box works fine for a ladder. And you need the right spacing. I like the triangular bars the best. They are followed better than anything else and makes a stronger attachment. But most guides work fine.
The most important thing to grasp with any natural comb hive is that one good comb leads to another in the same way that one bad comb leads to another. You cannot afford to not be paying attention to how they start off. Once you have a mess the most important thing is to make sure the LAST comb is straight as this is always the guide for the NEXT comb. You can't take a "hopeful" view that the bees will get back on track. They will not. You have to put them back on track.
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Thank you for the suggestion about "laddering" and keeping on top of what the bees are doing. It seems each time I look inside a hive, I'm fixing a mess. I'm lucky I'm on vacation! By the way, I placed frames with foundation into the hives I already fixed. Doing the rest of them today.
One more question. I noticed that the last frame of my bottom (base) hive body which is topped with honey (or mostly honey), is attached to the wall. (I've see this on two or three other hives.) I haven't checked this box for awhile but I can see this from above. Would you suggest I go in and fix that too?
And one more thing. I'm new to Langs and I'd like to know if the procedure is to push all frames together in the middle of the box - leaving an equal space at both walls - or to push them tight against one wall?
AND if you push them tight against the one wall, do you continue that all the way up into the other boxes with the same space on the same side of all the boxes?
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I will never go foundationless, it is just too much hassle for me.
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Yockey5,
As my original post said, I'm definitely going in that direction. I'm ambivalent about it though because I don't want to extract - only want to do cut comb.
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One more question. I noticed that the last frame of my bottom (base) hive body which is topped with honey (or mostly honey), is attached to the wall. (I've see this on two or three other hives.) I haven't checked this box for awhile but I can see this from above. Would you suggest I go in and fix that too?
You must have seen this in your TBH. They are notorious for side adhesions and brace comb. The bees are adding support where they can. They are not trying to build a new brood comb (unless you leave too much room between the frame and the side.) Just make sure you break the support comb with your hive tool before you try to pull the frame out so you don't damage the comb in the frame.
And one more thing. I'm new to Langs and I'd like to know if the procedure is to push all frames together in the middle of the box - leaving an equal space at both walls - or to push them tight against one wall?
The boxes are designed to have the frames pushed together tightly in the middle. If you push them all to one side, the space will be large enough to generate some serious cross comb.
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I am a new beek and I started with foundationless. In two hives so far I have only had two frames of wonky comb. I cut both out. Also, between the two they have drawn out about 14 frames so far and they look real good.
I used the big popsicle sticks for guides and glued them into the top bar. I also used one frame of wax foundation which I put 2 frames off center for a "ladder". So far I have been amazed. And it is fun to open the hives each week and see that nice white new comb has been added to yet more frames.
For reasons I can't understand, sometimes they will start two or three combs on one frame and then as they get bigger they meet up an join. This usually works, but on the couple of wonky frames they decided to bend the combs in opposite directions and not fuse them. Crazy bees.
I enjoyed Mike Bush's website as it goes into foundationless in detail and also has a wealth of other information. It's at
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm)
if you are interested.
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This discussion is what makes this site so great 8-)
thomas
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something else occurred to me and it has come up before. lots of new beekeepers expect perfect frames like those shown in pictures. even when using foundation, your bees often will not draw perfect frames. they will connect frames in spots, and they will draw burr comb. sometimes nothing is wrong, but we need to check our expectations.....and buy one of those nice long bread knifes.....they correct most sins :evil:
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Nothing wrong with Kelley frames. I think they will usually work fine even if you use only empty frames. But we always try to alternate new empty foundationless frames with drawn frames and we NEVER have wonky comb. As Kathy said, always push your frames together tightly. And if you do get bad comb, remove it immediately. Bad comb leads to more bad comb.
Ok, I'm a beginner with 18 new hives all foundationless, I don't have drawn comb to put my foundationless frames between unless I pyramid up 5 frames from lower boxes everytime I add a box. Is that what you recommend I do???
Right now I'm pulling up a couple of straight frames in the center of for each new box. The biggest issue I'm having is the frames adjacent to the good frames will be straight, but then their comb gets off center of the frames towards the outsides of the box. I'm using 9 - 1 1/4" frames in 8 frame boxes.
Thanks, Don
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Don, you should definitely pyramid up from the lower boxes when you add a box. This not only helps you get good-looking comb drawn fast, but it also helps reduce congestion and swarming by feeding empty frames back into the hive body. If you can, make every other comb a drawn comb.
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What exactly is "pyramiding up"?
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I agree with Kathy - 9 foundationless frames in a 10 frame box is a recipe for disaster. Get them drawing first, then move them apart.
After the first time, there is usually enough wax on the frames that any subsequent drawing should be straight.
Cut comb- I have the same thing, only I used shallows. Put a "v" on my homemade frames instead of a popsicle stick and they did just fine. First time I waxed the "V".
I do have to admit, though, that I'm not a big fan of foundationless. I use mostly plastic foundation, so any foundationless frames end up being drawn drone, and the queen will cross 6 full boxes to lay in 2 drone combs :-x...
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I do have to admit, though, that I'm not a big fan of foundationless. I use mostly plastic foundation, so any foundationless frames end up being drawn drone, and the queen will cross 6 full boxes to lay in 2 drone combs :-x...
Sure, the bees want to make some drones. If you don't give them some drone comb, they will make burr comb to lay drones in. So if you have plastic frames, then the first foundationless will always be heavy on drone, since they don't already have enough space. But that is not a fault of foundationless. That's just bees being bees. You could give them plastic drone foundation which is very nice if you want to do anti-mite drone trapping.
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What exactly is "pyramiding up"?
As used here I think it just means moving drawn frames from a lower box to a box higher up. It does not imply that those frames should be only near the center of the upper box.
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Sure, the bees want to make some drones....
Yeah, I know, it just doesn't fit into my beekeeping personality right now. Less aggressive management (LAM) of the bees means that I have to set them up to work like I want them to...so they get it right on the first time. Pulling drone frames out every other week isn't part of my LAM schedule :-D.
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Pulling drone frames out every other week isn't part of my LAM schedule :-D.
Well that's the problem right there. You keep pulling them out, so the bees keep making more. The bees want to make drones. They will keep building drone comb until they get drones. If you are pulling the drone out as a mite trap, that's fine. But if you are just pulling them out because you think they shouldn't be there, you are wasting your time and the bees energy. Why not just leave the drone comb where it is?
Once the bees get the drone comb they want, you can add foundationless frames and they will draw worker comb in them.
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Pulling drone frames out every other week isn't part of my LAM schedule :-D.
Well that's the problem right there. ... Why not just leave the drone comb where it is?
I meant as more of an IPM strategy...no point in breeding mites...either way I end up leaving the drone comb in the brood nest in the few foundationless frames and end up freezing the drone comb in my supers and then moving it to the outside of the boxes.
I do so prefer the nice straight combs built on plastic.
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I do so prefer the nice straight combs built on plastic.
Ok, I see what you're doing. We do use some plastic frames... the PF100s, to get a new package started with straight comb. Then we put foundationless between the plastic frames and go from there. We always have straight comb this way.
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>One more question. I noticed that the last frame of my bottom (base) hive body which is topped with honey (or mostly honey), is attached to the wall. (I've see this on two or three other hives.) I haven't checked this box for awhile but I can see this from above. Would you suggest I go in and fix that too?
I wouldn't fix it. They do the same with foundation.
>And one more thing. I'm new to Langs and I'd like to know if the procedure is to push all frames together in the middle of the box - leaving an equal space at both walls - or to push them tight against one wall?
All together in the center unless you want to make a follower to put in the gap on one side.
>AND if you push them tight against the one wall, do you continue that all the way up into the other boxes with the same space on the same side of all the boxes?
You don't. Put them in the center.
If you get a frame of drone and remove it, they will just make another until they get their quota of drone comb. Trying to eliminate drone comb is the leading cause of several problems, one of which is drone brood in the supers because you didn't allow it in the brood nest. I try to move it to the outside if I find drone comb. The bees will backfill it with honey when they are droneright.
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We started with foundationless this year and following advice posted here (beemaster) have had very good luck. Straight combs between those already drawn.
Yes they made a few frames of drone intially, then started right back in with worker...now most of the drone is backfilled with honey.
The only problem for us has been the last few weeks, the top few inches of many frames has gotten drawn out wide and filled with honey. We have seen this all over, but most commonly they are drawing out the top of older full frames into the space of new or newer frames that were inserted between them. Has not been a big problem and we mostly just left it alone. I did try shaving a couple down with the hive tool...we will see next week if they just put it back
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when they are storing honey they will draw deeper cells if they have the space. many people use 9 drawn frames in honey supers so that they are deeper and easier to uncap. if you have to cut it apart that's ok. the bees will clean up the drips, but be aware that dripping honey around can start robbing and attract yellowjackets, etc. it can't be helped, but you need to watch for problems and protect your hives.
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The only problem for us has been the last few weeks, the top few inches of many frames has gotten drawn out wide and filled with honey. We have seen this all over, but most commonly they are drawing out the top of older full frames into the space of new or newer frames that were inserted between them.
This is one of the many reasons we like long hives. With Langs you are forced to break the hive up into pieces and when one or two frames are overdrawn they don't fit neatly in the standard 10 frame or 8 frame space. With a 33 frame long hive, you just slide everything down and it always fits.
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I will never go foundationless, it is just too much hassle for me.
Its actually easier than foundation once you understand the do's and dont's of it. I place foundationless frames in between capped brood frames or between capped honey frames but always 10 frames in a 10 frame box.
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>Its actually easier than foundation once you understand the do's and dont's of it.
IMO MUCH easier than foundation...
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So ultimately why are people going foundationless? You can produce cut comb honey with foundation so that is out. I am in the hassle crowd for now. I don't see the point in a lot of things I guess. Like TBH and Warre hives for example. Are they really that much better than a Lang. I think TBHs look stupid. I have always believed bees work better going up and down not side to side. The TBH definitely throws that logic out the window. Just my opinion.
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obviously I can only speak for myself.
I started beekeeping with foundationless because:
I didn't want to buy foundation. I make all my gear, I will let the bees do the rest. I don't want to buy anything but bees and hopefully not them once I get a bit more experienced and established.
I am learning a lot by watching the hives expand and draw the comb themselves. It forces me to pay attention and see things I might not notice otherwise....Everyone who has come to visit loves to see the natural combs drawing out and melding together on the frame.
It might (I know this is debated) reduce the chemical contamination in the hives.
If I were keeping many hives, or didn't want to be in the hives I have frequently, I could see the attraction to foundation. But for the place I am out there really is no reason I would want to use it. To be fair, I have had nothing but good experience with it in my short time keeping bees, if I had been having the frustrations I see others write about I might be singing a different tune.
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You can produce cut comb honey with foundation so that is out.
How do you do that?
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So ultimately why are people going foundationless
everyone has different reasons. mine were cost of foundation and the fact that with foundation you are only giving the bees one cell size option. if you look at hives built in walls, trees, etc., the bees draw cells of different size for different thing. seemed if they did it on their own, they must have a reason so i went with their reasoning :-D
You can produce cut comb honey with foundation so that is out.
How do you do that?
they make a thin foundation just for comb honey supers.
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they make a thin foundation just for comb honey supers.
I don't think I'd want to eat that. Even if you want to use foundation for the brood frames, you could still use foundationless for the honey supers.
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I'm learning a very great deal from this discussion. Thank you all very much. In the last few days I've gone into my hives and realigned all the frames towards the center of each box. While doing so, I cut away the mess the bees made on the walls and fed it back to them. In addition, I added frames with foundation for the purpose of "pyramiding". I did a little experimenting: Some boxes I put 1 frame of foundation on each side. Others I put one frame in the middle and one on the outside. Next I'll pull up some nice straight drawn combs from below and place them in empty boxes above. It's good to know I'm now on the right track.
I don't want to do any extracting right now - just do cut comb honey - so I don't want to have to put too much foundation into my hives. If the bees store honey in them, as they probably will, I'll leave this for them.
Michael Bush:
Why do you feel foundationless is much easier to work with than foundation?
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>So ultimately why are people going foundationless?
The two main reasons are usually clean wax (no contamination from Acaracides) and natural cell size (not uniform 5.4mm cells, but a range of cell sizes almost all of which are smaller than that).
> You can produce cut comb honey with foundation so that is out.
If you like eating organophophates, yes.
> I am in the hassle crowd for now. I don't see the point in a lot of things I guess. Like TBH and Warre hives for example. Are they really that much better than a Lang.
Simpler. Not necessarily better. Cheaper. Easier to make from scrap wood.
>I think TBHs look stupid.
Looks have never been high on my list of importance in a hive.
>I have always believed bees work better going up and down not side to side.
And yet according to Eva Crane, throughout all of history including now most of the hives in the world are horizontal.
>The TBH definitely throws that logic out the window. Just my opinion.
Since the bees are happy to move sideways it does throw that logic out the window. If that was true than TBHs would not work. Yet they do.
>Why do you feel foundationless is much easier to work with than foundation?
They mess up foundation just as much, but with foundation I have to buy it. I have to store it, I have to put it in, I have to wire it, worry about it sagging, warping and collapsing. With foundationless I do none of that. When I go through a deadout with foundationless I just cut out any combs that are badly webbed by wax moths and put them back in the hive. I don't have to take them back to the house and scrape them out, and put foundation back in them first, and then find out I didn't need as many frames as I thought and the foundation sags before I get it in the hives and I have to redo it... way too much work.
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I haver (had) a KTBH and two Langs, all foundationless - I don't want someone else's dirty wax. The two Langs have cross comb, maybe because I used nine frames instead of ten, but at robbing time that really doesn't matter, as I use crush comb method. It does inhibit inspections, though. The top bar was going gangbusters, with beautiful comb, lots of bees, and minimal cross comb. I expected lots of honey from them, but, alas, when I arrived with my buckets there were just a few confused bees about and the hive was full of wax moths. I suspect the moths were just a result of something more sinister, but I had been lazy and not looked inside for three of four weeks, so I now have no clue. But to the point - the top bar hive girls followed the rules and drew marvilous straight comb.
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A couple people have mentioned using 9 frames in a 10 frame lang box and trying to go foundationless. This WILL result in poorly drawn comb and failure (unless you don't mind boxes full of crossed comb as David mentioned).
A 10 frame box requires 10 frames when using new foundation or foundationless. Once the frames are drawn out, then you can use 9 or even 8 frames, but not before.
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Michael,
I get what you say about the foundation drawbacks. Good points you make. How do you address the pyramiding technique that so many on this thread have found so successful? I'd imagine, you find some nicely drawn, straight combs and use them in the upper boxes? But if you have none of these to begin with, how do you begin? Going in and straightening until you get them? That was the only way I was able to get relatively straight combs. I started out my swarms on a nice straight comb of honey. It was in the upper boxes that I got into trouble and learned why from this thread.
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just pull some up from the bottom and replace the ones you pulled with empty frames. i pull mine up into the center because the queen will be more likely to get right up there and lay. i replace with empty frames right next to the brood below because those will get drawn faster.
eventually you will have lots of drawn comb, but when you are starting out it's a bit of a juggling act.
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>How do you address the pyramiding technique that so many on this thread have found so successful? I'd imagine, you find some nicely drawn, straight combs and use them in the upper boxes?
Yes.
> But if you have none of these to begin with, how do you begin?
Put the second box under the first and you'll eliminate the need.
> Going in and straightening until you get them?
If you only have some that are not flat in the frames, cut out what you have and tie it into the frame straight. Now you have some straight ones.
> That was the only way I was able to get relatively straight combs. I started out my swarms on a nice straight comb of honey.
Hard to beat a straight comb for a guide unless it's two straight combs, one on each side of the empty one.
> It was in the upper boxes that I got into trouble and learned why from this thread.
Here is some historic advice:
http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#historicreferences (http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#historicreferences)
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Michael,
Why do you use only mediums?
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>Why do you use only mediums?
http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize (http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize)
Only because I want all the same size frames.
http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes (http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes)
Mediums because I want lighter boxes.
http://bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm)
Eight frame because I want lighter boxes and I want a hive that is closer to the size of a winter cluster so they winter better.
Another reason for mediums is with foundationless there is less weight to support before it runs into a bottom bar and another top bar.
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VERY useful. Thanks.
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Fascinating conversation!! I'd like to try Langs next year. My girlfriend with Langs is getting a LOT of honey, and I'm limping along with beautiful comb honey, but not much of it.
However, I really enjoy foundationless and the purity of my girls' wax. My question is (and posted in another thread), can you extract with foundationless frames? Would I need to wire them, or string with fishing line, or something along that line? I imagine used-to-be-broodnest wax would be strong, but virgin wax in the honey supers? That seems like a difficulty.
I realize I could crush and strain it all, but I also love the idea of saving the girls some energy and time and hopefully getting more honey instead. I'd love to hear opinions and comments and hope this can add to the original thread topic. If not, OP please let me know and I'll start a new one :)
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My girlfriend with Langs is getting a LOT of honey, and I'm limping along with beautiful comb honey, but not much of it.
I don't think she is getting more honey because she uses langs. (Are you using TBH, long hives?) It's true that langs require a bit less attention but as long as you are paying attention to your long hive..... removing frames of honey when the hive is full.... you should not be getting less.
There are lots of other variables. Maybe she has a more energetic queen or maybe your bees swarmed and hers did not. Just having a lang does not guarantee you honey.
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Well, I've definitely been learning on these bees, sometimes to their detriment. Last year I lost them to a bear, but they were dwindling anyway. The year before they both swarmed, but I believe they did this year also.
This year I will be able to pull quite a bit more honey, but still probably only the equivalent of one medium super each (if comparing to a Lang). We get our queens and packages from the same place... We have a pretty good location, and she's mainly in a subdivision...
My first 2 years, the bees nearly filled the 48" topbar hives, producing mega brood and very little honey. Anyway, I have a lot to learn and would love to hear suggestions!
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My first 2 years, the bees nearly filled the 48" topbar hives, producing mega brood and very little honey. Anyway, I have a lot to learn and would love to hear suggestions!
You might want to have a long talk with Tbeek. He has long hives in Wisconsin and has had a lot of success. I don't know much about raising bees in hard winters, but I will say that if you are filling 48" hives you are doing something right.
The only question would be "When are your bees building up?" If they are built up to 20 frames before the flow, you should have tons of honey. If they are building up later in the year, you might not get much because your bees are eating it. And if you have 48 frames of bees there is no room for honey. You might want to split the hives and add empty frames so they have a place to put the honey.
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How do you address the pyramiding technique that so many on this thread have found so successful?
Remember, in nature, once the bees move into a cavity and start building comb from the top of the cavity down, it is rare that there will all of a sudden be extra space added to the cavity above the already established comb. Adding space (drawn comb, foundation, foundationless) _above_ the established colony is trick....exploiting their natural behavior by introducing an unnatural circumstance...room above.
From the bee's perspective, the cavity should be filled from the top down, so room up top requires filling in with comb, stores, and brood. The bees are likely to not abandon the cluster to build this comb, so bottoms up....it starts to flop over, so the bees build brace comb at 90degrees...and you have a mess.
I'm not a fan of alternating the foundationless with foundation or drawn comb....I think the bees work best when they can make a contiguous cluster and work on several parallel combs at once.
The bees really like to be _between_ combs, not on them...so I try to take the middle 3 frames from the box below and move them up to the center of the new box. I push the remaining brood combs together and put the 3 foundationless frames in the lower box, on the outside.
deknow
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The bees are likely to not abandon the cluster to build this comb, so bottoms up....it starts to flop over, so the bees build brace comb at 90degrees...and you have a mess.
You are right if you are just putting empty frames in. But if you put in a ladder.... one frame of drawn comb, the bees will generally move up and draw the surrounding comb from the top down. And moving up three frames is even better... as you say.
I'm not a fan of alternating the foundationless with foundation or drawn comb....I think the bees work best when they can make a contiguous cluster and work on several parallel combs at once.
But this can get you into trouble with cross comb. We alternate our foundationless with drawn comb and the bees draw it very quickly. A row of foundationless is more likely to have messy comb.
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But this can get you into trouble with cross comb. We alternate our foundationless with drawn comb and the bees draw it very quickly. A row of foundationless is more likely to have messy comb.
I agree. I dont place them outside the broodnest anymore. They are typically filled out and used as honey storage and the frames are really thick and usually extend well into the next frame. I place mine in between two capped brood frames that makes for neater, more uniform drawn comb.
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I agree. I dont place them outside the broodnest anymore. They are typically filled out and used as honey storage and the frames are really thick and usually extend well into the next frame. I place mine in between two capped brood frames that makes for neater, more uniform drawn comb.
I don't really mind the overdrawn honey frames because I am using long hives so everything fits. In a Langstroth it's more of a problem. And empty foundationless frames in a row are still better than empty hive space. But as long as you keep you boxes full of frames, your method sounds good.
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After trying alternating foundationless with foundation OR with a drawn comb of honey, I found it works great! All my colonies are on track and it solved my past mess.
Unless there is something better, this is the way I will go in the future.
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>can you extract with foundationless frames?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract)
>Would I need to wire them, or string with fishing line, or something along that line?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire)
>After trying alternating foundationless with foundation OR with a drawn comb of honey, I found it works great! All my colonies are on track and it solved my past mess.
Keep in mind this works great in the brood nest. Results in the honey area may vary. With drawn comb they tend to draw it out really fat and ignore the empty bars. With foundation they tend to ignore the foundation and draw the foundationless out really fat. Either way, if they do this the combs are too fat to pull out. If that happens, flip the box upside down on something and pull the box off the top so you can get the frames apart without squishing comb.
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"Flip the box upside down" Now there's a video I'd like to see :). Guess I'm not that confident w/ my bees yet, I use a long bread knife to cut apart, not the best solution perhaps but it works.
thomas
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"Flip the box upside down." Now that's a great idea I have to try! I always carry a piece of plywood into the bee yard to place my boxes on. Automatic flat surface, the bees don't get lost in the grass, and there is little chance of me stepping on them. When I'd done, I just give it a couple of raps and shake the bees back into the hive. I'll use this to do my "flipping". :)
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...that's turning over the broodnest...right? :bee:
deknow
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I read the first 1/3 of this thread and then scanned the rest looking for what my second hive had when I received it from my mentor, Mike.
It had waxed plastic foundation that was cut length wise into thirds. They were attached at the top so this left 2/3rds for the bees to build but by the time they start working on the bottom 2/3rds they are all lined up. When I pulled the frames to extract the honey I had forgotten that this had been done. It wasn't until I held them to the light, to figure why the top half was so dark, that I realized that I had 3 frames of perfect comb honey on the lower 2/3rds. Mike had tried this just as an experiment and it worked perfectly. If you want, try making 4 or five slices from each foundation.
Good luck, Jim
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you don't even need a 3rd. i use a pizza cutter on warm foundation and cut about 1 inch strips. works great. i "glue" them into the top with melted bees wax. got an old glass syringe from ebay and it's perfect for the melted wax. was also cheaper than the tube thing they sell in the bee catalog.