Fall splits

[Stone]

What are the advantages and/or disadvantages of doing splits at this time of the year? 

I'm thinking of splitting of a couple of my very strong colonies and introducing queens. I've done spring splits but I'm curious how the time of year would affect the outcome.

[yockey5]

Why??????? Just something to do?

[D Coates]

Fresh Fall queens.  The younger, the stronger, the more prolific they should lay, the more honey you'll get and the less prone to swarming they'll be.  I'm finishing up my nuc splits this weekend.  Any later and you'll not have enough time to get a cycle or two of fresh bees to overwinter with.  All I'm trying to do have these nucs and their fresh Fall queens as replacements for any hives that don't overwinter.  Assuming I've got more nucs than failed hives I'll steal brood to boost populations, replace queens, or do combines where I feel it is appropriate.  It's like having interchangeable spare parts on hand whenever you need them.

[Stone]

Yockey5,

I'm really rather busy and have lots to do. I'm asking because I'm inexperienced and curious and I respect the knowledge of the people on this forum and have been very encouraged by their generosity and thoughtfulness.

I'm looking at some bangin colonies in my bee yard! And I'm thinking if this was spring, I would have split them yesterday!-  to make increase.  I figure why not take advantage of the big populations now so I could have more colonies coming out of winter ready to rock'n roll.  I'd like to know the pros and cons and/or if there is any advantage to it.  I always hear about spring and summer splits but never about splits later in the season.  I'd like to understand why.

D.Coates,
Thanks for your reply. Just so that I understand what you mean when you say "fresh fall queens" Do I understand you correctly that you get them now and place them into your overwintering nucs?  That's what I was thinking of doing for my splits.  It sounds like the timing is crucial.  Can you elaborate?  Thanks

[FRAMEshift]

I'm thinking of splitting of a couple of my very strong colonies and introducing queens.

If you have mated, laying queens in hand and the splits are large enough to make it through winter, the advantage would be that you will have more bees for the crucial spring flow.

If you do not have mated queens then it is too late to do a split.  If you do not have really big hives with lots of stores, you risk losing all the splits.

[yockey5]

I surely don't have all the answers, but it has been winter prep in the fall (sometimes big job) and the spring time for splits. Hard enough getting a strong colony through the winter for me.

[BlueBee]

Looks like you’re about the same latitude as Detroit.  My opinion is you’re too late to be fooling with the bees now.  I would focus on getting the hives you have prepped for winter (coming soon) and making splits next year if you want to increase the number of your hives.  It is very possible to multiply a hive by 10x if you start earlier in the season.  

Next year, if you want to make splits for the fall, I would start nucs in mid to late July and do walk away splits.  That saves you $$$ since you don’t have to buy mated queens and pay for shipping.  Even small splits can build up to 8 frames in time for winter if you start in July.

[BBees]

Stone,

You may very well be able to split a strong hive if you measure it's strength by the number of brood frames and whether they are capped, uncapped, or eggs. If you're judging by the number of bees flying, remember they will all be dead in 3 weeks.

The ratio or balance that seems to work best in my hands is 5:4:1, 5 frames of honey to 4 frames of mixed brood to one frame of pollen. This ratio works for me whether I'm talking about a 5 frame nuc or 20 frame double deep when I'm tucking them in for winter. Granted there's a lot more to overwintering these girls, but anytime I can't achieve this ratio, the bees struggle and most end up as a dead-out come spring.

As important or more so, everyone is trying to feed their bees at this time of year. If you are, don't overlook keeping open, drawn comb in the middle of the brood nest. The backfilling of the brood nest can reduce those very important winter bee numbers if you neglect leaving the queen some space to continue laying.

Hope this helps.

[Michael Bush]

I NY I don't think I would split later than Aug 1st and then I would expect to overwinter it as a nuc, not a full size hive.

[Stone]

BBees,

Thanks.  I've got brood up into my 5th medium, in one of my hives.  I think feeding Mega Bee patties had something to do with it, but this is my first time doing it so I have nothing to compare it to. I haven't fed this hive and it's really rockin' and based on how my colonies look, I'll probably not have to feed.  I'm watching this very closely.  If anything, I'll take honey from the strong and give to the weaker.  We've had a lot of rain but the flow has been very strong and I'm waiting to see what develops. I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm not determined at all to do splits but I was just very curious about it.  

[BBees]

Stone,

Wow! Love to hear about colonies that are doing great, especially after last year. Plus, if you don't have to feed, sounds like your in great shape.

Now if we can just sneak past this cold, wet weather, the forage might hang on a little longer and help all our colonies make to spring.

Good luck

[BBees]

Michael,

Normally, I would follow the timetable you noted. But this year, Mother Nature seems to have been kind to the bees in this area of New York State and has pushed the calendar back a couple extra weeks. Of course, the real test will be winter. All we can do now is hope for a mild one.

[BlueBee]

Actually I think there is more we can do than hope for a mild winter.  I plan for the worse while we still have time to do something.  Insulate, insulate, insulate and get them fed as Finski says.

A split after Aug 1st at this latitude is very risky because the drones get kicked out in early Sept.  If you want the bees to raise their own new queen and save $$$ you need to do that by about Aug 1st or there will be no drones around to mate with.  It takes 20 to 30 days in total to get a mated queen.  So a Aug 1st split means you aren’t going to have any winter bees being layed until about Sept 1st.  Those eggs then take another 21 days to turn into worker bees.

If you want to spend money to buy mated queens you still run into this time problem of raising enough winter bees to make it through winter.  Purchased queens don’t always start laying up a storm right away either.  The problem is it takes 21 days to make winter bees and there is now only 30 days left until a killing frost.  Ideally you would like to get in 2 brood cycles in a split before winter.  

Your highest probability for increase success is to split strong hives next spring/summer.

[Finski]

.
If split are made before the queen lay winterbees, it would be ok.  it depends what is fall out there.

The hive may have a huge amount of bees, but how many frood frames are there at the end. It commands how big is a winter cluster.

The most important to me is spring build up = when the colony is ready to get surpluss.
When I look early yield one box winterer never get early yield. It needs a huge 2-box hive.

Biggest hives may have 15 frames brood when at same time 5 frame winterer has 2 frames.

6 weeks later those brood are foragers. Another has 7 times more than that tiny one.
The tiny occupyes one box and biggest 4 boxes.

[boca]

... but how many frood frames are there at the end. It commands how big is a winter cluster.

but how many brood frames are there at the end. It commands how big is a winter cluster.

A single letter makes a huge difference.

[boca]

As important or more so, everyone is trying to feed their bees at this time of year. If you are, don't overlook keeping open, drawn comb in the middle of the brood nest. The backfilling of the brood nest can reduce those very important winter bee numbers if you neglect leaving the queen some space to continue laying.

It is interesting, that here in northern Europe I do the opposite. I restrict the colony to a single deep brood box and feed them heavily and rapidly. They fill the whole broodnest with syrup. The aim is not having young brood any more, so the emerging young bees don't have to feed the larvae, they remain strong, long living wintering bees.

[BBees]

Bluebee - You are absolutely right. Splitting now is more to just bolster/balance my over-wintering nucs. Definitely need laying queens and better yet, frames of her eggs to be a viable option. If I didn't have a bumper crop of laying queens and over-wintering nucs, I'd never consider it. It is very risky business this time of year. It needs to be a balanced hive - Laying queen, full compliment of brood, honey, pollen, and a critical mass of bees, and the proper environment to survive winters like ours. I really think your insulating idea is great. I'm an avid reader of your posts. Hope to try one soon. Already have done the supplementary heat with struggling colonies in the spring and believe that's what saved them. Thanks, keep the information coming.

Boca - I'm glad you brought that up. That's exactly how I use to do it, albeit with double 10-frame deeps. It was (and still is?) the conventional wisdom. Well, working with this convention, I never opened up a hive in the spring that was completely out of honey or pollen, yet I was losing 40-50% of them with bees starving within a few inches of plenty of honey. Part of the problem was a moisture issue, which I think I've resolved (rarely is anything 100% in this bee business.) But still my colonies seemed so small in the spring despite our re-queening program. (Note; colonies are winterized from mid-October until beginning of April and average 100" a snow each winter.) Then, interestingly, with all else being equal, I realized the colonies that were the strongest come spring were the donor colonies I rob brood from the previous summer for my queen rearing operation (and over-wintered nucs.) Generally, I take 1 frame of brood per week and replace it with a frame of drawn comb stuck in the middle of brood nest, and keep feed (1:1 syrup and pollen patties) on year round. I was extremely careful that these queens (and the nucs) always had plenty of open cells for the queens to lay in despite the workers trying to backfill. Short version is these queens seem to keep laying longer (yes, I've peeked in during the occasional warm November days) and their colonies are the strongest in the spring. Certainly, the longer the queen can continue laying, the shorter the time the winter bees have to make it to spring. (Also note; We have a very strong Goldenrod flow here late August until early September here, but this year it's still going strong in my local area.) Bottom line - If I feed, I feed syrup & pollen and add drawn comb to the brood nest. If I can't do all three, I don't do any of it. This may not work everywhere, and probably won't, but maybe it warrants further study as an over-wintering aid.

One more haunting thought. In my ignorance, have I been killing my hives with kindness by overfeeding syrup in the fall that led to the backfilling, thus limiting the queen's laying capability.....

All food for thought.

[BlueBee]

Interesting observations BBees.  My current school of thought is very similar to yours.  My goal this feeding season is to not over feed them.  With all the insulation my hives have, they’ll need less stores anyways.

[caticind]

Stone, if you do not have extra queens in hand right now, then the single biggest factor influencing your decision is drones.  What date will your hives kick their drones out?

Beemath:  A queen takes 16 days +/- 1 to go from egg to hatching.  A queen normally takes another 2-4 days to get out and start mating depending on weather.  So say you split today and tomorrow the queenless split begins to rear a 2-day old larvae and she hatches on the dot and is ready to fly out after just one day and the sun is shining that very day she will be ready to mate in 16 days.

Do your hives have drones now?  Sure they will have them in 16 days?  If not, you shouldn't split because your queens won't be well-mated.

Of course if you have mated queens on hand now, ignore all of the above and just try to judge whether you have enough brood and honey to divide.

Remember that you might split a hive of a given size in spring, because you can count on more flows and more time to rear brood.  Those conditions don't apply in the fall.

[D Coates]

D.Coates,
Thanks for your reply. Just so that I understand what you mean when you say "fresh fall queens" Do I understand you correctly that you get them now and place them into your overwintering nucs?  That's what I was thinking of doing for my splits.  It sounds like the timing is crucial.  Can you elaborate?  Thanks

I will allow a few of my nucs to expand to 10 frame nucs through the year, sometimes even 15 frame nucs (see Easy 5-Frame nuc plans).  In July and August I'll try my hand at grafting and raising queens.  I'll put some in recently made queenless 5 frame nucs that were split from the 10 or 15 frame nucs to mate in and take over.  Others queens I'll raise in a queen castle.  Those raised in the queen castle are insurance replacements for any that don't make it in the 5-frame nucs.  By now I'm done with raising queens.  Turns our I didn't need the insurance and I'm splitting the few remaining nucs up with queen castle queens in overwintering quarters.  I guess you could buy the queens but it may be too late for your neck of the woods.  ...There's always next year! ;)

[Stone]

BBees,

A few weeks ago I was posting that I thought some of my hives didn't have enough stores to get through winter.  I combined the three I was most worried about.  All of my colonies have been doing so much better and this flow has been amazing!  This is only my third year at this but I had to add mediums so fast, I didn't even have time to put a coat of linseed oil on them!

I'm seeing that it would be much wiser to wait until spring, ascertain the condition of the colonies and do splits then. As caticind said, "Remember that you might split a hive of a given size in spring, because you can count on more flows and more time to rear brood.  Those conditions don't apply in the fall."

[SerenaSYH]

Nothing of value to say, just lurking :bee:! but one of my favorite threads here!  So fun to read and everything is easy for a non-beekeeper to learn from  :rainbowflower:

This thread is packed with yummy knowledge to gather!