Natural Beekeeping in the North

[Robo]

I agree. However I was amazed by the study that was done with requeening package bees with local queens. The survival rate was a lot better.

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE09-665&y=2009&t=0

So for those of us that want get bees in the spring and have the survive through the winter this might be a reasonable option.

Eric,  too bad you don't live closer.   Our local bee group puts on a free 2 day intro to beekeeping course every January.

http://hvhives.com/intro-to-beekeeping/

I talk extensively on the value of having local acclimatized stock.   Ideally you would want to start with local over-wintered nucs, but this can be hard at times and more costly.  Packages are the worst way to start as it is a mish mosh of bees from different hives and a queen they are not related to. Furthermore the colony is in decline for almost the first month until brood starts to hatch.   Unfortunately,  packages have become the norm for people starting into beekeeping,  and I think it is also one of the biggest factor of people not continuing.   With  that said,  requeening with a acclimatized queen is what I always recommend to beginners. Unfortunately, many get overwhelmed by how "good" the southern queen appears to do during the summer and think they have a good one.  But even poor queen appear to be good when conditions are ideal.  It is when the weather changes and fall comes that these "good" queens start to fail.  When it is too late to requeen.....

[Eric Bosworth]

My biggest problem was finding a source of local queens. I did requeen we will see what happens in the spring. I do have them in a hoop house for the winter. We will see.

[derekm]

Hi all
Kris: Yes I think you get it!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
I think most the points you mention where covered by Finsky and as he says 10 frame colonies do come through a little better than the 5 frame. But both tend to build up in my area as well or sometimes quicker than normal colonies.
You can easily help these smaller (5 frame) hives in the previous Autumn by adding some drawn frames after the honey has been extracted from them. I tend to put 1 frame in the centre of the nest to encourage the queen to lay it up and the rest to the sides. Only add the frame to the centre if you have plenty of bees because you are splitting the brood but the queen normaly starts to lay this up in a day or two.
If a slow steady feed is given in the early Autumn these young queens continue laying far longer than their older counter parts and this provides plenty of young bees for the winter and following spring.
All the nucs you mention above can be used for the raising of queens and the use of 10 frame hive bodies with a divider is very good as you can remove 1 queen for use elsewhere and easily unite the colonies for wintering if you wish. Or should you decide to try and get both through they benefit from some shared heat. The mini nucs you mention are widely used for queen rearing but it's a question of scale and whether they suit your set up.
The only other suggestions I would make are to try some of the poly hives, colonies really benefit from the extra warmth. Keep a small block of candy on these small hives from the middle of the winter as this takes the pressure off their stores. I also treat in the autumn and winter for Varroa with tried and tested methods.If you give some of these methods a go you will soon come up with methods of your own that suit your area, bees and your own style. When your fellow beekeepers are sitting around moaning about the price of bees or the winter losses you can sit back with a smug look on your face and even offer to sell them a couple. AT AN EXTORTIONATE PRICE OF COURSE. :twisted:

Derbeemiester: I don't get the American bee journal so if you could please keep adding a few articles it would be most welcome.


Regards Ian

Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.

[Robo]

Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.

Exactly!   I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended)  because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation.   I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top.  I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board.   I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".

Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:

[derekm]

Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.

Exactly!   I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended)  because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation.   I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top.  I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board.   I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".

Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:

how uncommon/common is a "closed top" for over wintering in yourpart of the U.S.
The well known aphorism you quoted  just doesnt match the research but still its quoted. Heat loss kill and weakens

[Robo]

how uncommon/common is a "closed top" for over wintering in yourpart of the U.S.
The well known aphorism you quoted  just doesnt match the research but still its quoted. Heat loss kill and weakens

With the exception of me and a few new beekeepers that I have mentored, 100% provide upper ventilation.  Our average minimum temperature is -26C

[derekm]

Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.

Exactly!   I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended)  because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation.   I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top.  I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board.   I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".

Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:

I do lectures on how  the physics of heat and transfer applies to Honeybees over here in the UK. It sees like it will be a long time before the U.S.beekeeping community  will want to hear how bees really use heat flow and exploit thermal  properties of their habitats.
   Hang in there, the laws of thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer do still hold in the U.S. !!

[Eric Bosworth]

I understand the keeping the bees warm. But moisture is an issue if it condenses and drips on the bees. How do you deal with this problem?

[OldMech]

  As I understand it, from a LOT of reading and studying..  the way the air cirulates in the hive is dependent on NO upper ventilation, but is also dependent on an insulated roof..   
   Having a roof that is not insulated, with ANY type of structure that will cause the condensation to DRIP..  The escape hole in the inner cover for instance...   Insulate that to prevent the condensation, and the warmth rises, rolls to the outer wall, and descends as it is displaced my warmer air..
   The issue, is when the bees are LOW in the hive, and that warm moist air has a ways to go before it reaches the inner cover. The inner over is NOT warmed by the warmth from the cluster yet, and so, moisture WILL condense..  As the cluster rises, that warmth will increase, and eventually the condensation will stop..  The issue I have, is protecting my bees from the initial condensation..
   Today is was 66 degrees..  Tomorrow, it is forecast to be 32 degrees, with teens at night..  For the next week or two, the bees will be dripped on if I do not provide upper ventilation, and that will last until they have moved UP far enough in the hive to heat the inner cover.. I am not so sure that the moisture will not condense on the FRAMES above them when they are far enough away... 
    I am at a bit of a loss about how to nullify that without an upper vent...   I am experimenting with an upper entrance below the upper medium.. I use medium boxes exclusively,, so I run three brood chambers..  With an upper entrance at the top of the second box, it leaves the third box with NO ventilation, but the bees will be close enough to the top at that point to warm the inner cover sufficiently top keep it from condensing moisture...

   I would like to find research to the effect of what temperature/distance the worst of the problem begins..

   To me, it only makes sense to preserve ANY heat given off by the bees to the best of our ability, but I have also been trained from the age of thirteen that you MUST have a small upper entrance for ventilation, as well as entrane and egress when the bottom entrance is plugged with snow and ice.....    For 37 years the upper entrance has worked, I am reluctant to change, despite how much sense NO upper entrance makes...

[derekm]

reduce any thermal mass between the insulation and the bees.  Then condensing action will warm that faster and so any transient condensation will be small, unlikely to drip and be quite warm. This transforms a threat into benefit

[Eric Bosworth]

reduce any thermal mass between the insulation and the bees.  Then condensing action will warm that faster and so any transient condensation will be small, unlikely to drip and be quite warm. This transforms a threat into benefit

Reduce thermal mass? What thermal mass would you suggest I reduce? Honey stores? Great... Its better they starve than freeze from the cold dripping condensation. I would guess these practices are somewhat location specific.  For example Robo is about 2 hours from me. I probably get a lot more snow and wet weather than he does. Not much much further than that from me they get dumped on all winter with snow from Lake Ontario or Erie. That said lake effect is usually a dry snow. I regularly get wet snow. Short of sealing the hive completely how do you account for this?
 

[jayj200]

while vacationing in Florida the sun was warm ans the skies  clear.

I jest
reducing the thermal mass sounds impractical. the location and type of top vent.

in construction we wick moisture out. say with a cotton plug, may work

[derekm]

it is the thermal mass of the condensing surface in question i.e. the inner cover.for better clarity substitute  "between the bees and",  with this "between the bee cavity and" in that post.
You can reduce the thermal mass of the inner cover easily by using thin plywood or making the insulation it self the top cover. Thus the warmth of the bees and the latent heat of condensation can quiclky change the surface temperature of the top cover to above the dew point. If you use a plywood inner cover make sure the insulation is sealed to the top surface of the inner cover with tape all the way round.

[jayj200]

Placing nucs on top of a hive will keep both warm

[Eric Bosworth]

If I understand correctly I should not use wooden hive bodies. I should just use Styrofoam. The bears would really make a mess of Styrofoam. At least I was able to put the frames back in and start over with wood.

[derekm]

If I understand correctly I should not use wooden hive bodies. I should just use Styrofoam. The bears would really make a mess of Styrofoam. At least I was able to put the frames back in and start over with wood.

STYROFOAM SIDES?? havent got you to close the topvent and put just  a slab on the roof yet. Lets not rush those fences

[Eric Bosworth]

I did put Styrofoam on top. I also put the hives inside my wife's vegetable hoop house. As far as closing a top vent... That is the only door. They need to get out for cleansing flights.

[derekm]

I did put Styrofoam on top. I also put the hives inside my wife's vegetable hoop house. As far as closing a top vent... That is the only door. They need to get out for cleansing flights.

then open one at the bottom and close the top.

[Eric Bosworth]

Just what I need... A rodent infested bee hive.

[jayj200]

mouse gards