Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: adamant on September 21, 2013, 01:27:42 am
-
she asked me a few questions and I don't know how to answer her!
she said: Bees are enslaved!
“I heard vegans don’t eat honey. I didn’t realize that. Can you tell me why not?”
They’re exploited for human gain. They are robbed of their honey. The queen bee is eventually killed to control the hive. Some bees get killed when the trays are taken out to get the honey and then put back in. Honey is regurgitated plant pollen, so it came out of a bee; therefore, it’s an animal product.
Then someone would say something like, “But the bees aren’t enslaved. They fly freely out to the flowers and then return to the hive.”
HELP! she is coming Saturday!
-
Diseases and pests have taken their toll on Feral hives. I want to help, so I have hives. I do my best to keep them disease and pest free. Provide them with a good home and control the predators that would harm them. In return, they occasionally give me honey..
If that doesnt work just show them the way back out the way they came in.
I understand some people like to live differently than I do. I am fine with that. Live without a firearm of any type. Eat vegetables and never eat meat. Donate half of your paycheck to the church. If that is what you prefer... GREAT! This is America, your SUPPOSED to be free to live how you wish. It falls under the pursuit of happiness statement.. I will get along with you just splendidly, be your friend, and assist you however I can.. Until you decide how "I" live is wrong. At that point, I point out the front gate, and push the button that opens it... and wave.....
-
Wow, she sounds like a great gal. X:X
-
I'm afraid you will lose your argument with her if you try and justify anything . They usually don't except any answer that's not there's that said be polite give answers to questions a best as possible. But before the tour starts let her know that you respect her right to be vegan and you expect the same respect in return. This person may very well just be curious but be mindful not to be trapped in a one way conversation but be willing to here what the person has to say. Everyone is allowed an opinion and sometimes we can learn from them to
-
Bees are enslaved response; No less (or more) than humans.
Vegans don't eat honey response; That greatly depends on the vegan or "Bees are the ultimate vegan" so why not join them?
Bees are exploited for human gain response; Isn't everything?
Not all beeks kill their queens and if careful many will kill very few bees when moving things around. Does the vegan friend drive a car? How many insects including bees are killed by cars?
My bees are more like pets that receive love, respect and TLC that return the favor with much entertainment and sometimes great quantities of honey. Should we also give up dogs, cats and hamsters? Well....hamsters......... :-\
"Each to their own unless their own attacks your own"
Absolute certainty from the purists of the world you say? No way! :-D
-
Gently change the subject and steer the discussion toward things she'll appreciate and empathize with. Tell her you call your worker bees "womyn" in repudiation of the oppressive patriarchal traditions that define females by reference to a male norm. Show her how they're kicking out the drones this time of year, and explain how they'll spend the winter in all-womyn cluster having nonjudgmental emotionally supportive meetings where they validate their feelings and discuss Very Serious Things, like why they deserve equality and free medical stuff and lifetime alimony and permanent restraining orders.
-
I once got into a go round with a vegan when I made a comment that man is evolving but not this one cause I still got my canines. :-D
There is nothing more noble than a misguided person, remember the cry for a boycott on the chicken industry because they had developed a headless chicken that they sat in a box & stuck a feeding tube in their neck?
Your not going to change their mind, but they want to change yours. Therefore you have the advantage to have a liittle fun. You don't have one article of leather in your wardrobe do you, do you really want to know what goes into the makeup your wearing, when's the last time you got a vacccination, isn't the gas your putting into car talking advantage of things that lived before, wouldn't a head of lettuce run away from you if it could?
Ignore the sarcasm & be informative, after all isn't the biggest threat to bees is the things that feed on them?
-
why does she want to tour your yard? if she is against beekeeping might she have a hidden agenda? i'd be leery of showing her where your hives are located. you can answer all of her questions without going to your apiary
-
why does she want to tour your yard? if she is against beekeeping might she have a hidden agenda? i'd be leery of showing her where your hives are located. you can answer all of her questions without going to your apiary
I agree! :fishhit:
-
I was going to ask if you invited her or she sought you out. If it's somebody that you don't know, ya you might be the next article in Go Vegan or Die website LOL
-
I would politely decline the opportunity to be maligned. Nothing to be gained here unless you like conflict and being abused. Opening a hive for her will just result in incidentally crunched bees and she wouldn't want that on her conscience I am sure.
-
There's no upside here...And the possibility of the downside being anywhere in between mildly uncomfortable and down right unpleasant, or worse.
Politely tell her that you've reconsidered and in light of the circumstances you're not comfortable with her in your bee yard. :)
-
My daughter is vegan and has no problems with honey or my bees. She knows that I do my best to keep them happy and healthy.
One fact that vegans may relate to is that bees are pretty much the ultimate vegan animals, they don't have to kill or hurt anything to complete their lifecycle...not even flowers. Obviously I leave out the part about the drones in winter.
Whether they are slaves or have free will is kind of a deeper conversation. As a Eusocial animal I don't think that anthropomorphic analogies apply. Do our fingers and toes have free will apart from the entire human?
If anything they are in service to their group, which is the entity, certainly not in service to me. They are free to swarm, abscond or stay. In fact as a beekeeper I pretty much consider myself in service to the hive.
-
Diseases and pests have taken their toll on Feral hives. I want to help, so I have hives. I do my best to keep them disease and pest free. Provide them with a good home and control the predators that would harm them. In return, they occasionally give me honey..
If that doesnt work just show them the way back out the way they came in.
I understand some people like to live differently than I do. I am fine with that. Live without a firearm of any type. Eat vegetables and never eat meat. Donate half of your paycheck to the church. If that is what you prefer... GREAT! This is America, your SUPPOSED to be free to live how you wish. It falls under the pursuit of happiness statement.. I will get along with you just splendidly, be your friend, and assist you however I can.. Until you decide how "I" live is wrong. At that point, I point out the front gate, and push the button that opens it... and wave.....
that's the problem. it's not enough to be free to live how you want to for a lot of people, they have to strip everyone else of the right to live any other way. i see it in fundamentalist christian extremists as well as attachment parenting, 6 year old nursing left wingers that chew food and spit it into baby's mouths (both groups should be free to be who they are). most people have reduced social issues and politics to the level of college football, their team is the best team and there is nothing anyone can say to change their minds. i'm all for live and let live if you aren't hurting anyone in the process.
unless this is a friend of yours i wouldn't let her anywhere near your bees. she and a dozen other activists might picket you or come kick your hives over one night to free your enslaved bees.
-
also, you might explain to her that bees often kill and replace queens and that honey is regurgitated nectar not pollen. it sounds like she knows just enough to be wrong.
-
mdax, i have never met one that could think that deeply.
:lau:
-
this is the letter I got from her:
Hi there. I'm moving toward a vegan diet and I just learned vegans don't eat honey because apparently bees are enslaved and used for their honey. I don't think I agree with the vegan view on honey and I want to eating it. Can you just tell me a little about how you keep your bees so I know what to say if I'm asked? I've seen pictures of your bee boxes with the bees flying around freely. It doesn't look like they are captives. And sure you take their honey, but they have enough to eat. I have a feeling that the amount of honey kept bees make is more than the quantity they'd make in the wild anyway, so taking it is simply taking the surplus. Am I right? Your pictures have helped me see bees as beautiful, not scary like I used to think. I don't think bee keeping is bad. Can you confirm my beliefs?
-
did anybody else ever get that email from the nigerian king where he wanted to deposit millions in your bank account?
if i got some random email like this i wouldn't even respond. i guess middle age has made me jaded but i'm with moots, i see no good coming out of this for you.
-
Since when are beeks shy about giving their opinions :laugh: I would take her to the apiary and tell her all about the bees….as long as she’s not carrying. :-D You both might learn something new and you might get some new customers too.
-
Are the birds in my, and her, bluebird houses enslaved?
What does she do when finding a roach or spider in her home?
Would she rather they die from disease than you treat them and save their lives?
Every time man cuts a hollow tree, a colony is saved by one of your boxes.
Does she have her home protected from termites?
Plants, humans, and animals live and die. Some live because others die. All life cannot be protected at any time, and no life can be kept forever.
EXCEPT THE TRUTH AND ADJUST.
-
Disinvite ... Obviously a maniac.
I guarantee I know who she voted for in 08 and 12.
Would love to know her abortion stance.
-
I generraly shrug my shoulders and point out all the.ants, mice, etc. that are killed tilling a field.to grow.broccoli....not.to.mention.the.human exploitation of many migratory workers producing the veggies.
If enslaving bees is wrong, I dont see plowing over ant colonies as right.
Deknow
-
If enslaving bees is wrong I don't wanna be right...
-
I generraly shrug my shoulders and point out all the.ants, mice, etc. that are killed tilling a field.to grow.broccoli....not.to.mention.the.human exploitation of many migratory workers producing the veggies.
If enslaving bees is wrong, I dont see plowing over ant colonies as right.
Deknow
This is an aspect most 'beginner' (when they are most pure ;)) vegans forget; Where their veggies come from and what or whom may have suffered or died bringing them home.
Deknow: We;ve been trying "no-till" for the last 10 years with great success.
Take all the political finger pointing, false presumptions and assumptions (hate) out and this has been a very interesting discussion X:X.
I mean really, its not just Lefties who chew up their infants food for them...C'mon people. In fact I know several Right Wingnuts who are strict Vegans and love my bees and honey.
Its not a left/right either/or issue.
-
Are the birds in my, and her, bluebird houses enslaved?
What does she do when finding a roach or spider in her home?
Would she rather they die from disease than you treat them and save their lives?
Every time man cuts a hollow tree, a colony is saved by one of your boxes.
Does she have her home protected from termites?
Plants, humans, and animals live and die. Some live because others die. All life cannot be protected at any time, and no life can be kept forever.
EXCEPT THE TRUTH AND ADJUST.
I think iddee said it perfectly, "EXCEPT"....
I'm sure he meant to say, "ACCEPT THE TRUTH AND ADJUST". :-D
-
The "truth" depends on where one stands.
-
The "truth" depends on where one stands.
"Plants, humans, and animals live and die. Some live because others die. All life cannot be protected at any time, and no life can be kept forever."
T Beek,
The above statement strikes me as a pretty much undeniable truth...I'd be interested in hearing someone try to make a logical argument against it.
-
I generraly shrug my shoulders and point out all the.ants, mice, etc. that are killed tilling a field.to grow.broccoli....not.to.mention.the.human exploitation of many migratory workers producing the veggies.
If enslaving bees is wrong, I dont see plowing over ant colonies as right.
Deknow
This is an aspect most 'beginner' (when they are most pure ;)) vegans forget; Where their veggies come from and what or whom may have suffered or died bringing them home.
Deknow: We;ve been trying "no-till" for the last 10 years with great success.
Take all the political finger pointing, false presumptions and assumptions (hate) out and this has been a very interesting discussion X:X.
I mean really, its not just Lefties who chew up their infants food for them...C'mon people. In fact I know several Right Wingnuts who are strict Vegans and love my bees and honey.
Its not a left/right either/or issue.
if you are going to reference my statement keep it in context. i wasn't making some political statement i was just stating that people from all walks of life see things their way and their way only. you'll also notice i said they all have the right to do those things if they aren't hurting someone else. i'm not making a statement about politics, i'm making a statement about people in general and agreeing with old mech that people can do what they want but when they try to force me to do it or to stop something i want to do we have a problem. where you stand is no secret, though, you can't call them right wing, you have to slur them with the term wingnuts. seems like you're bringing in the politics.
-
this is the letter I got from her:Hi there. I'm moving toward a vegan diet and I just learned vegans don't eat honey because apparently bees are enslaved and used for their honey. I don't think I agree with the vegan view on honey and I want to eating it. Can you just tell me a little about how you keep your bees so I know what to say if I'm asked? I've seen pictures of your bee boxes with the bees flying around freely. It doesn't look like they are captives. And sure you take their honey, but they have enough to eat. I have a feeling that the amount of honey kept bees make is more than the quantity they'd make in the wild anyway, so taking it is simply taking the surplus. Am I right? Your pictures have helped me see bees as beautiful, not scary like I used to think. I don't think bee keeping is bad. Can you confirm my beliefs?
If what she rights is truly how she feels it may bee that she wants to bee a vegan but cant bring herself to give up honey and wants to see that they are happy :bee:
mvh Edward :-P
-
We are losing so much land to housing projects and strip malls that the animals...including Honeybees are running out of natural habitat......we...all of us are providing homes for them. I don't think she needs to know much more than that...especially not where your yard is.
-
Why do you care even the tiniest bit what a vegan or anyone else wants to eat?
-
interesting video.... http://youtu.be/dY7iATJVCso (http://youtu.be/dY7iATJVCso) maybe it would help her to appreciate beekeepers.
-
Why do you care even the tiniest bit what a vegan or anyone else wants to eat?
Well I do not !!!
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
-
great video carol.
-
well the visit went well . i shower her that bees are not enslaved! they can come and go as they please. she is a "new" vegan and feels that honey as a food should be used as a food! she is a writer and will write a story on what i showed her. when she does i will post it.
thank you for your many reply's!
ant
-
The "truth" depends on where one stands.
"Plants, humans, and animals live and die. Some live because others die. All life cannot be protected at any time, and no life can be kept forever."
T Beek,
The above statement strikes me as a pretty much undeniable truth...I'd be interested in hearing someone try to make a logical argument against it.
OK, here goes.
"There is no death, only change of life" (and perhaps too many thin skinned beeks :shock:)
-
OK, here goes.
"There is no death, only change of life" (and perhaps too many thin skinned beeks :shock:)
T Beek,
Nice try....but I would say that argument is more faith based than logic based. :)
However, Personally speaking....I sure hope you are right! :-D
-
OK, here goes.
"There is no death, only change of life" (and perhaps too many thin skinned beeks :shock:)
T Beek,
Nice try....but I would say that argument is more faith based than logic based. :)
However, Personally speaking....I sure hope you are right! :-D
Of course I'm right, and the position is not faith based its 'science' based. Basic organic biology and chemistry (think fungi).
-
Of course I'm right, and the position is not faith based its 'science' based. Basic organic biology (think fungi).
WOW! I'd call that argument a S T R E T C H, at best! But WHATEVER.... :-D
-
The "truth" depends on where one stands
relativism - T Beeks forte.
-
There are a bunch of vegan web sites out there with a lot of misinformation about beekeeping. The bees can leave anytime they want. The other things pushed on the vegan sites are the ideas that bees are killed off every winter and that all the queens are instrumentally inseminated. While some people do both of these things they are rare, and not the common methods of beekeeping.
-
The "truth" depends on where one stands
relativism - T Beeks forte.
Worked for Einstein :-D
-
Of course I'm right, and the position is not faith based its 'science' based. Basic organic biology (think fungi).
WOW! I'd call that argument a S T R E T C H, at best! But WHATEVER.... :-D
Stretch your mind Brother. The eventual breakdown of all living things turning into other living things IS science IS life.
NO DEATH, ONLY CHANGE OF LIFE. See the Cat, see the cradle? One must only look to see :)
-
Stretch your mind Brother. The eventual breakdown of all living things turning into other living things IS science IS life.
NO DEATH, ONLY CHANGE OF LIFE. See the Cat, see the cradle? One must only look to see :)
"No Death, only change of Life"... Hmmm, I've never been able to hold a conversation to those who've had a "change in life." But, they are not dead? They sure looked, acted and even smelled dead to me. It sounds like new age Lola Granola gobbledygook. As one organism's life cycle ends other organisms exploit this and consume the undefended resources until all resources are depleted. It does not change the fact that the original organism has died. It's not coming back, it's gone.
As for dealing with a "true" Vegan, don't even waste your time. Hit your thumb with a hammer, it's faster and less painful.
-
Stretch your mind Brother. The eventual breakdown of all living things turning into other living things IS science IS life.
NO DEATH, ONLY CHANGE OF LIFE. See the Cat, see the cradle? One must only look to see :)
"No Death, only change of Life"... Hmmm, I've never been able to hold a conversation to those who've had a "change in life." But, they are not dead? They sure looked, acted and even smelled dead to me. It sounds like new age Lola Granola gobbledygook. As one organism's life cycle ends other organisms exploit this and consume the undefended resources until all resources are depleted. It does not change the fact that the original organism has died. It's not coming back, it's gone.
As for dealing with a "true" Vegan, don't even waste your time. Hit your thumb with a hammer, it's faster and less painful.
Look deeper, you pretty much explained the premise I presented with the very rendition you presented. Hmmm. Sounds exactly like change of life to me.......... ;)
Heard a good one the other day; Vegans, they don't eat meat, dairy, eggs and have no sense of humor. Wonder why? Maybe they're just hungry. :-D
Now don't get me wrong, I love vegans as much as carnivores. Right wingnuts AND left wingnuts alike :shock:
-
i can't believe i'm joining this but i agree that there are physical changes and that where one life ends other lives benefit. but that doesn't explain the spiritual aspect which is what i think makes us "alive". so unless there is some energy that we all become part of (hopefully a consciousness of some kind) then it is more death than change to me.
what a thread vonnegut was referenced and einstein was mis-referenced (relativity is what worked for him) and the circle of life was covered. put that all together and you get on freaky version of the lion king.
-
"Everything is One" thing..................only "One" thing.
Is that faith or science? Or is it something else?.......Sorry for any misdirection, 'mis-referencing' or straying from the topic......... :embarassed: Its inspiring to have these conversations, no?
One; The loneliest number :-D
"We could have saved the Earth but we were too d..mn cheap" K Vonnegut
-
ha! this one ran off topic (and deep) pretty fast. it's definitely been an interesting one, though. you don't run across many vonnegut fans often in my world (construction in dixie).
-
...and in a cruel twist of irony, we find that the vegan diet actually makes vegans more delicious when you cook them. I say we encourage veganism as much as possible...at least until the feast....er, I mean "culling" :)
deknow
-
...and in a cruel twist of irony, we find that the vegan diet actually makes vegans more delicious when you cook them. I say we encourage veganism as much as possible...at least until the feast....er, I mean "culling" :)
deknow
no fat makes for dry stringy meat........
-
I have a one word response:
Moo
deknow
-
well, if we pen raise and grain feed them that's different. i was thinking free range.
is vegan veal cruel?
this has been a wild thread. now we have cannibalism in the mix, doesn't get much more circle of life than that.
-
adamant - update?
Has the article been printed yet?
-
http://www.bikinator.com/blog/2013/september/vegans-to-eat-honey-or-not.html (http://www.bikinator.com/blog/2013/september/vegans-to-eat-honey-or-not.html)
here is the article. long... read the whole thing!
-
http://www.bikinator.com/blog/2013/september/vegans-to-eat-honey-or-not.html (http://www.bikinator.com/blog/2013/september/vegans-to-eat-honey-or-not.html)
here is the article. long... read the whole thing!
+1 - a very thoughtful article by someone who took the trouble to ask questions and find out for themselves - with the help of a friendly local beek!
-
very good article. you did good too. i had my doubts! not about you, but about the outcome :-)
-
I am glad she got the experience and to share. Good job. She looked like she had fun as well.
-
You can never win when you play the other persons game. Change the rules and tell her to take a hike.
-
Looks like you won big on that one.She seems to be a good friend to have, for you and the bees. Beautiful job by both of you.
-
awesome
-
Coming very late to this thread. It's interesting (and a little disheartening) to see most respondents painted the inquirer with a big stereotypical vegan brush even after the original letter was posted and the intent was clearly not antagonistic. Bravo to the OP for providing an opportunity to enlighten someone seeking facts, not dogma. As a result, both parties have probably opened their minds to the other's way of life and point of view. More than likely, the guest will educate other vegans, hopefully changing their incorrect perceptions of beekeeping.
The seeds of change...
-
Sadly, when beekeeping you will meet a few misinformed idiots :(
mvh Edward :-P
-
adamant, It looks like you did a good job representing all of us. The writer gave a very good representation of what we are all about. Again, Good Job.