Converting deep nucs to medium hives

[Duane]

I have two nucs on order and want to convert them to mediums.  That is, I have decided to use all mediums (with top entrances), but my nucs are coming as deeps, so what do I do?   Without cutting the nucs down or otherwise greatly disturbing them.

What I have:
Two 10 frame deep boxes, and one 10 frame medium box.
Six 8 frame medium boxes.

One thought is to put the two medium boxes together.  Then put 2x4s in the bottom on edge to fill the bottom of where the 5 frame deeps will go in the top box and mediums in the remainder of the bottom and top boxes.

Another thought is to use the 10 frame deep box with the 5 deeps and then 5 mediums and spacers under them.

I'm thinking the first way is better.  But either way, how do I suggest to the bees to leave the deeps and use the mediums?  At first it seemed that deeps would be stuck up away from the rest of the box and maybe they'd leave them.  But when it's 8 frame mediums, that's only 3 frames to the side we're talking about.  What I could do, once they start filling the mediums out, is to add a third box, moving the deeps to the top.  I could partition off the middle box if that helps.  If the deeps are far enough away from brood in the bottom mediums, will the bees tend to leave the deeps?  Using top entrances, does that change things?

Maybe this depicts 3 medium boxes with a partition around the extra mediums?:
mmm|DDDDD
mmm|DDDDD
---------
mmmmmmm


Or do I just wait until they fill the 6 medium frames, remove the deeps and put them in the 10 frame boxes, letting them raise a new queen worrying about converting them next spring?  Maybe even putting both 5 frames from both boxes together in a 10 frame box once each nuc has filled 6 medium frames?

[cao]

If your plan is to go with all 8 frame mediums, I would cut your 10 frame deeps and to make them 8 frame.  Just put three mediums in the deep with your nuc.  Then you can use your 8 frame mediums on top of that.  Use it like that this year and next spring when the bees are near the top of your stack of boxes and the deep is empty remove the deep.  I have several hives with a deep on the bottom and mediums above.  The bees don't mind and neither do I. 

[kd5uwl]

Gee .. I just joined today - this is my first post .. and I joined just to ask a question very similar to this one.  And I think this reply answers my question!

This is my first season and I started with two hives and one 2-pound package of bees each.  I used deep hive bodies and have two medium supers on standby, ready to add.  But now I've decided I'd rather have my boxes all the same size and to go with mediums.  I had no idea what to do.

But it sounds like this method would work for me?

However .. how big a stack will I have going into season two?  I don't think I thought that far ahead!  I suppose I assumed I'd be back down to a single box after harvesting honey .. I don't know .. I don't think I ever thought about season two!  Now I feel like a real dummy ..

[Dallasbeek]

Iddee, OldMech, Michael Bush and others:  are these guys making beekeeping a lot more complicated than it should be?  Thet're just starting out and they're wanting to deviate from the plan.  How many times more will they second-guess what they have started?  Words of wisdom needed, and I don't feel adequate to the job.  But cutting 10-frame deeps into 8-frame mediums just seems a bit much. Is new woodenware that expensive?

[kd5uwl]

I see it was a mistake to join here.  My fault.  I'm sorry.  I won't be back.

[Dallasbeek]

Wow, I'm sorry, man.  You seemed to be asking for advice, but apparently just wanted somebody to agree with what you were planning to do.  If your woodworking skills are as bad as mine, you'd never think of cutting 10-frame deeps into 8-frame mediums.  Then you'd have to rebuild the bottom board(s) and the inner covers and the telescoping cover(s).  I hope you're still reading, at least.  I was urging someone with more experience than I have to help guide you.  That's what people do on this forum.

Cao and Duane, stick with us.  You'll learn a lot on this forum.  I'm truly sorry if I somehow offended kdSuwl.  We try never to be offensive here and being offensive is grounds for banishment from the forum. 

I didn't feel my level of experience was up to giving you the advice you need.  I'm sure someone with more experience will join this string shortly.

I'm in my second year of beekeeping.  I have one 10-frame hive and one 8-frame.  I've never considered mixing deep and shallow frames, because my impression has been the bees would do some pretty wonky things with the open space at the bottom, making a lot more work for me.  I am woring toward foundationless, however, and that also creates a different set of problems.

Just hang in there, stay on the forum and help will arrive, okay?

[biggraham610]

I see it was a mistake to join here.  My fault.  I'm sorry.  I won't be back.

Theres alot to be learned on this forum. If you cant filter what you need and your skin is that thin I'm sorry for you. You will have left one of the best open forums on the web to ask and get answers from experienced beeks. Good Luck. G

[Duane]

I see it was a mistake to join here.  My fault.  I'm sorry.  I won't be back.

Not sure why you think that.  You asked the same question as mine, and I want to know the answer.

[Duane]

Iddee, OldMech, Michael Bush and others:  are these guys making beekeeping a lot more complicated than it should be?  Thet're just starting out and they're wanting to deviate from the plan.  How many times more will they second-guess what they have started?  Words of wisdom needed, and I don't feel adequate to the job.  But cutting 10-frame deeps into 8-frame mediums just seems a bit much. Is new woodenware that expensive?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.  I'm not wanting to start destroying things.  I'd only do that if I am absolutely convinced I want no deeps anymore.  And I might change my mind.   I also don't want to spend more money and more importantly, time in building and painting something I have currently decided not to go with.  What I'm looking for is a temporary non-permanent solution. 

I'm in my second year of beekeeping.  I have one 10-frame hive and one 8-frame.  I've never considered mixing deep and shallow frames, because my impression has been the bees would do some pretty wonky things with the open space at the bottom, making a lot more work for me.  I am woring toward foundationless, however, and that also creates a different set of problems.

And that's why I was asking about putting a 2x4 underneath of them.  Two mediums stacked on top of one another with a deep put in the top box extends down so there is just enough space for a 2x4 on edge below it.  Easy, non-permanent solution.  But there may be something I'm not thinking about, and it may not solve my problem at all.  In which case, maybe something like cao suggest about the second year.  And that is to move all 10 deeps to my deep box, put a medium 10 frame on top, and that might be all they fill this year and then next spring take the deeps out.

Another solution would be to use the 10 frame boxes on each, and I think it Michael Bush has said you can put a narrow board across the deep and then stack the 8 frame boxes on top.  The bees will seal the board.  In my case, I still have issues with the space and only 5 deeps in the deep box unless I put more deeps in the boxes which is heading more in the direction I want to get away from.

[Michael Bush]

Some of this depends on how handy you are with tools.  If you are handy with a saw, you can easily cut down deep boxes to mediums (run them through a table saw at 6 5/8" and you can cut ten frame boxes to eight frames:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm#cutdownboxes

And you can cut deep frames to medium frames:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm#cutdownframes

But if you are not handy with tools, I'd sell off what you don't want.  New boxes hold their value well.  Once there have been bees in them they do not hold their value well.

[Dallasbeek]

Duane, the best argument I have against the idea of putting 2x4s inside a hive is all the places it gives small hive beetles to hide.  Any crevice or crack is in invitation to SHBs. If you haven't seen what SHBs can do to a hive, hope it stays that way.  They can be totally disgusting, believe me, and bees will abscond when they reach a certain level.  You don't want anything in the hive that encourages them.

[kd5uwl]

I apologize for having let you know about my failure with the forum.  I was just so disappointed that I was being treated that way.

Usually when someone joins a forum they are welcomed and treated in a kind way, not made fun of or called names like "thin skinned".  That is usually saved for later.

Checking the perpetrator's other posts I see that this behavior of deriding other members is chronic with him but evidently the moderators have never done anything about it.

These guys didn't even read my post.  They are saying I didn't want help but only wanted someone to agree with my plan.  But I had no plan regarding this detail yet, that's why I was asking. 

Is this the way all new members and first time posters are treated?  Just exactly how does this help?

They didn't read my post or they wouldn't be saying my question is the same as Duane's.  I never said anything about modifying or cutting any woodwork.

I was NOT asking about cutting down boxes, nor was I asking about going from 10 frames to 8.  No woodwork involved.  I was merely stating that I planned on transitioning from deep hive bodies to mediums, and that the answer Duane received in Reply #1 would also work for my similar but not identical situation.

I sure have no idea why everyone jumped on me so, especially since I'm new, just joined yesterday, and was making my very first post.

I'm just disappointed it has to be that way, that's all.

Again, as I said, I am very, very sorry.  I apologize thoroughly as it was squarely my fault, just like I said.  I'm the one who joined.

[Dallasbeek]

KdSuwl,

Welcome to the forum.  i'm so glad you didn't write your farewell and sign off forever.  Sorry we got off on the wrong foot.  There's a special string under new members/Greetings, tell us about yourself in which we welcome new members and exchange pleasantries. 

I was trying to address the original question and the response it brought from Cao, which was to cut down boxes.  I did not feel qualified to fully address the questions, but I was a little bothered by the idea of cutting down equipment and was saying hold on a bit, help will come.

There is so very much to learn about beekeeping that it could almost be a life's work just to master the basics.  This forum is one of the best places I know of to get fully informed.  But for a real education, start with Michael Bush website and read everything on it.  He has gathered information from everywhere and back to the 18th century and made it available on his site, plus the wisdom of his own long beekeeping experience.

Good luck with your bees.

[kd5uwl]

Dallasbeek, thank you for your reply.  I truly do apologize for getting off on the wrong foot.  Yes, Michael is fantastic.  I have been corresponding with him for a couple of months, and it was he who suggested I get on this forum.  He mentioned it was the most polite and helpful.

Again I'm truly sorry and apologize to everyone for getting off on the wrong foot.

I'll sit quietly by .. I'm sure any future questions I have will have been asked before, and I can just search the site for answers.

Thanks to everyone.

[Dallasbeek]

KdSuwl,

If you want to just watch from the sidelines, fine, but I'd suggest you should be more involved.  Ask questions.  Everybody has questions and the ones you ask may be just what someone else really wants to know but doesn't know how to ask it. 

Look, I'm a former journalist, newspaper editor and retired prosecutor/lawyer.  I'm not always delicate in dealing with people.  I'm sorry I offended you, but don't you go being so blamed sorry about everything.  Come on.  Get in here and mix it up on the forum.  It can be very educational and even when you make yourself look like an idiot (yes, talking about myself), you learn something.  And there are parts of the forum that are just for fun. 

Gary

[Duane]

kd5uwl, At the risk of making matters worse, I will attempt to make them better. 

I'm a little confused as to your reaction.  Until you started complaining, no one had said anything to you.  So you might have complained about no one talking to you.  Cao had told me about cutting down my boxes, but that was before you posted anything.   The reason Dallasbeek didn't say anything to you is that he saw you coming along with the same question I had, and here was cao recommending me to cut down my boxes.  As Dallasbeek, being in only his 2nd year, had nothing to recommend regarding the question of how do you convert deeps to mediums, he was asking others with more experience to help us both out. 

Regarding cutting down my 10 frames to 8 frames, that does not change the question.  It is only, and only relevant to my situation, because I lack the equipment.  If I had only 10 frame boxes, or even more 10 frame boxes, my question would still be the same:  How do I convert deeps to mediums.  The same as yours.  I'm looking forward to the answer.

I'm sorry some people may not have reacted nicely to you, but your reaction was unexpected given no one had talked to you yet.  People really are helpful here, but there are some who react to reaction.

[Duane]

Back to how to convert to mediums,

I really, really, don't want to start destroying my equipment.  I may change my mind about 8 frames as Dallasbeek suggested how many times will I change my mind.  I don't think I will, but being new, I just may.  All I know is I went to lift my 10 frame box and thought it had stuck back down.  Then I realized I already had it tipped up and it was just heavy even though it wasn't even full!  Trying to keep my fingers on the tiny edge of a hold, while stinging insects are flying up at me, and then trying to remember to use proper mechanics of lifting heavy objects, not just once at harvest what I had mistakenly thought, but every time you inspect them, was too much.

Later on I may cut them down.  But even if I did cut the boxes down, I have 8 frame deeps and 5 nuc frames.  Since I do still have deep frames, I suppose I could add 3 more deep frames, but I'm trying to get away from deeps and want mediums.  My goal is to split the bees so I don't have the same issue of my last attempt of having only one hive and then when something happens I have nothing.  If I add yet more deep frames, that sets me back some from splitting.

And no, I have not experienced small hive beetles.  I had thought this area was exempt from them, although I understand further south they are a real problem.  However, I did hear someone not far from here talk about them.  So 2x4's may not be a good thing.  I was going to ask if I should make them fit tight or leave a half inch around them due to mites or what not.

Without adding more deep frames, whether I cut my boxes down or not, does anyone have any ideas for converting to mediums other than delaying until next spring?  Given small hive beetles may be a problem, it sounds like leaving the deeps mixed in with mediums is not a good thing.  So, my idea of moving both sets of 5 nuc frames to my deep box later seems like something I'd like to head with unless someone comes up with potential problems.  But that still leaves the temporary problem of the mixture of frames.  One thought I had in the past was to put strips of thin chipboard on both sides of the bottom bar extending down.  That way the bees could get in-between to fight moths and mites or now small hive beetles, and yet it would be a barrier to suggest they don't fill it as long as there is space elsewhere.

[tjc1]

I would absolutely suggest that you go to one size hive box (mediums or deeps, 8 or 10 frame). I have spent the last two years slowly changing over to 10 frame mediums - it is so much easier - to lift boxes, exchange frames of brood or stores between boxes, etc.. I do still use standard honey supers for honey.

I think Cao's suggestion is a good one. Cut the deeps into 8-frame size. Put the nuc deep frames in the deep boxes, filled out with medium frames - your idea for adding chipboard to the medium frames in the deep is a good one, I think. I think the 2x4 idea, while it sounds logical/workable will end up being a real pain. As Cao says (and as I did myself) you wait till next spring when the deeps (on the bottom) will be empty and you can cycle them out, and then cut them down to mediums. It seems like a long wait, but you'll get there next year and then all your gear will be one size.

I would just forget about trying to resize the 10 frame covers and bottom boards, and get new 8 frame size ones.

[cao]

First off I only was suggesting cutting your 10 frame deeps to 8 frame deeps to match your six 8 frame mediums.  That way you would have all 8 frame equipment.  But I also didn't think about bottom boards, inner covers, and top covers since you didn't say what you have.  I may have jumped the gun a little on the wood working thing(I have built most of my equipment including several hundred frames).  Woodworking is one of my hobbies so I didn't think about the lack of woodworking skills.

Since you don't want to wait til next spring and you don't want to cut your nuc frames down and you don't
want to modify your equipment,your options are limited.   Might I make another suggestion.  Put a medium frame in the middle of your 5 deep nuc frames and when they fill it add another.  Eventually the deep frames will be on the outside and will be filled with honey.   Then you can pull it out.  The only downside that I see is that the bees may build come from the bottom of the medium frame.  But if it is between 2 deep frames it should be straight.  That way they could be cut off and either thrown away or rubberbanded to some other medium frames when your deeps are gone.  This way you could cycle out the deeps this year.

Just remember this advice is only as good as what you paid for it. 

[don2]

I would suggest working out some way to get the equipment you require to do things the way you wish. If you have intentions of staying in the bee keeping business spend the $'s that it will to get the pieces of equipment you will need.  I would not put any frames of a different size in another size box. Or anything else to take place of frame space. You are asking for BIG,BIG, trouble.
The best thing to do is come up with a decision for 8 or 10 frame medium's. You can take an 8 frame box then put a narrow strip on each side on the bottom sides of the 8 frame box so when you center it on a box under it the two strips extending  out will cover the space in the 10 frame box on each side. You would need only one of these modifications for each hive you wanted to convert. Add 8 frame mediums as needed. next spring, "or before" if they move up this year when the deep is empty, or back filled with honey then take it off, harvest the honey then set it aside till needed. What you wish to do does not seem like such a big complicated problem to me. Some of the suggestions I have seen does put it a little far out in left field to my thoughts.
You will have to spend a little extra $'s at times or give up the idea of beekeeping.  As for the forum you will not find a better more friendly one any where else. d2     


Cut 2 strips the length of the hive body. 1 and 5/8th inches wide. Glue and nail to the bottom on each side. make sure it is flush with the sides on the bottom. Start nails from the inside of the box, or screws if you prefer them over nails.The thickness does not matter. all you are doing is covering the space on the 10 frame  bottom hive that the 8 frame box does not cover. d2