Help - Possible Pest Identification Needed

[SueCT]

Hi All!  Just cleaned and put the catch tray back in under my screened bottom board last Saturday.  Pulled the trays tonight and one of the hives had a tray that had about 1/8"-1/4" deep brown grit - kind of looks like coffee grounds.  Have not seen this previously and have not seen any signs of pests in hive during previous inspections (have done inspections every 1-2 weeks since nuc install on Memorial Day.  I did see one small beetle on the tray - it was maybe 1/8" long with a rounded back.  I was questioning if it was a small hive beetle.  I didn't see the little balls on the tips of the antennae like I have seen in photos, though, so am questioning that ID.  Has anyone seen grit like this on the catch tray/sheet beneath their screened bottom boards?

Here are links to the photos on my Flickr account:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100664031@N04/14501659785/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100664031@N04/14315056318/in/photostream/

[SueCT]

As a side note, I live in central Connecticut.  It's been warm here for about a week - mid 80's and moderate humidity.  I've been noticing that the bees have been clustering on the bottoms of the frames in the bottom brood box right above the screened bottom board.  They're also hanging out on the screen and the landing board.  They seem lethargic to me.  I'm also seeing what I want to describe as grooming behavior - using front legs to wipe their faces/heads, sticking their thoraxes up in the air and kind of wagging them.  It seems like odd behavior to me, but I'm a new beekeeper, so maybe this is normal in warm weather?  Took a couple of brief video clips of the behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aayW1_vTg8&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwXuIV2lI4I

[BeeMaster2]

I have seen this in my dry oil trays before, more than once. I do not know what it is. Sometimes it is the length of a frame and sometimes it is a round spot the size of a silver dollar size cone that is an inch high
Hopefully someone here will know.
Jim

[SueCT]

Thanks for your reply, Jim.  I take it because you never identified the source that it wasn't a major pest infestation?  Any thoughts on the lethargy and grooming behavior I'm seeing?  Normal on warm summer days or something to worry about?  Sue

[Diogenes]

Could be old combs chewed down to the base.

I've been making a real effort to cycle all my old comb out, yet when they decide to chew it out, you get debris like that. I give them one or 2 old comb(s) with a new super of foundation, and sometimes they chew the old comb down to nothing.

Last time I saw that, there was white wax on a brown base of chewed-out comb. Just a guess based on your photos though.

 8-)

[BeeMaster2]

Could be old combs chewed down to the base.

I've been making a real effort to cycle all my old comb out, yet when they decide to chew it out, you get debris like that. I give them one or 2 old comb(s) with a new super of foundation, and sometimes they chew the old comb down to nothing.

Last time I saw that, there was white wax on a brown base of chewed-out comb. Just a guess based on your photos though.

 8-)

That sounds about right.
After I rearranged my observation hive and replaced 2 capped frames of honey, I removed 4 frames of capped honey, and closed it all up and put the hive back in the house, I noticed that the frame was up against the glass on the opposite side. Those bees began to cut the comb and cut it so perfectly that it looked like someone had cut it with a laser to give them bee space on that side.
This was brand new wax and they reused every bit of it but I suspect that if it had been old comb, it would have resulted in a line of brown dust the length of the frame.
Jim

[SueCT]

Huh, that's interesting.  We did just add a deep to the hive - a 2nd brood chamber as this is a new Nuc.  The nuc came with 5 grungy old frames, which were full of capped brood and are basically the heart of the brood chamber.  I wanted to pull those frames out, but was unwilling to sacrifice the beautiful brood there.  It was also the only drawn comb in the hive to start, though they've been working on remedying that.  Come to think of it, there was one old frame that was positively full of honey - the only one in the hive - and I moved it to that side of the brood chamber into slot 10 and moved an empty frame that hadn't been drawn out yet closer to the brood chamber to encourage them to draw it out.  Wonder if they ate the honey and are cleaning that frame up?  Does that sound plausible?

[JackM]

Though I have not seen this myself, it does sound like just dark comb dropping from restructure, especially after moving out of the brood area.  Cappings are nice and light colored.  Black would possibly be that old brood comb that got moved.

[BeeMaster2]

Huh, that's interesting.  We did just add a deep to the hive - a 2nd brood chamber as this is a new Nuc.  The nuc came with 5 grungy old frames, which were full of capped brood and are basically the heart of the brood chamber.  I wanted to pull those frames out, but was unwilling to sacrifice the beautiful brood there.  It was also the only drawn comb in the hive to start, though they've been working on remedying that.  Come to think of it, there was one old frame that was positively full of honey - the only one in the hive - and I moved it to that side of the brood chamber into slot 10 and moved an empty frame that hadn't been drawn out yet closer to the brood chamber to encourage them to draw it out.  Wonder if they ate the honey and are cleaning that frame up?  Does that sound plausible?

If any section of comb was placed with less than bee space between them that would cause the brown crumbs from the old comb.
They probably did not eat it, unless there is a dearth, they move it to another section of the hive.
Jim

[Intheswamp]

Capping from where brood has emerged?

Ed

[SueCT]

That's good to know, Jim.  They had been drawing out a fair amount of burr comb, which I've been scraping off the top of the frames and they did build out the comb on already drawn frames a bit more - I think for storage space - until they could draw out the new frames.  I think they were almost bound for room because they couldn't draw out the frames fast enough to keep up with the nectar flow and with their population growth.  Maybe that extra deep comb was the problem - especially when I moved it into an end spot right next to the wall of the super, which is exactly where this line of debris showed up.  

[SueCT]

Hi Ed!  Thanks for your reply! The only thing that made me think of this as being unusual and alarming was the volume of debris in such a short time frame.  I put the tray in on Saturday and checked it 3 days later.  In that time, there was about 1/2 cup or more of this brown, crumbly grit.  It looks like coffee grounds or like dry potting soil.  It does have a waxy feel and residue, but isn't all wax - I grabbed a tablespoon or so and popped it into the microwave on a plate.  It didn't completely melt like I would have expected of wax, so something else is mixed in with it.  Maybe debris from cells that they're cleaning out.  If it was just scraps from emerging bees, I don't think I would have had this kind of volume. 

[RHBee]

Sue,
I've always just understood that stuff to be hive debris. No cause for alarm. Wax moth larvae can live off that stuff so I keep it cleaned out of my trays.
Ray

[Intheswamp]

Ray, I guess we could call that "bee dander"?

SueCT, as for brood cappings, I think some propolis is mixed with wax and possibly other ingredients, it does not completely consist of wax like with honey comb....brood capping has to allow oxygen to pass through.  I don't think that there will be a complete melting of brood cappings.

Ed

[BeeMaster2]

Ed, I have seen what Sue is referring to several times. What i have seen is too heavy of a drop to bee just from cappings. I agree the cappings are the same type of material but this is from a major remodeling job in the hive.
Sometimes it is in one spot, like they bored a hole through the comb or made an emergency queen cell but more often it is the length of frames after an inspection has rearranged the frames.
From watching my observation hive, it takes several days to cut all of the comb that is touching the glass, especially when there is no room between the glass and the comb and they have to cut the side of the comb and move the honey.
Jim

[SueCT]

Many thanks to all of you for talking me off the ledge - I was terrified that I had been missing something during inspections!  I so appreciate that you all took the time to help identify the source of this debris! 

[Intheswamp]

Ed, I have seen what Sue is referring to several times. What i have seen is too heavy of a drop to bee just from cappings. I agree the cappings are the same type of material but this is from a major remodeling job in the hive.
Sometimes it is in one spot, like they bored a hole through the comb or made an emergency queen cell but more often it is the length of frames after an inspection has rearranged the frames.
From watching my observation hive, it takes several days to cut all of the comb that is touching the glass, especially when there is no room between the glass and the comb and they have to cut the side of the comb and move the honey.
Jim

I just went back and reread (read for the first time?) SueCT's follow-up post about adding the second deep and the old comb.  What you said above makes good sense to me.  I've seen the same thing in my hives where "lines" of similar debris would be on the tray...I've always passed it off as brood cappings but I suppose it has lots (probably more) to do with the bees keeping there hives to "spec".  Thanks for giving me a little more knowledge! :)

SueCT, the first few times I saw this I was concerned as well.  After I saw it several times and the bees were good an strong I decided that it was debris from brood cappings which was a good thing.  With the added information from Jim I still consider it a good thing...the bees are doing what they need to do. ;)

Jim, I do have a question about the bees trimming the comb.  The scenario...  When doing an inspection I remove brood comb and re-install it.  But, when I replace the frames I space a couple of them to close together.  The bees then trim the comb down to get the correct bee space.  In doing so, though, the trimmed brood comb will have cells that are shallower than they were previously.  Will the queen lay in these cells?  Will the workers use these cells for honey/pollen?  :?

Ed

[BeeMaster2]

Ed, I have seen what Sue is referring to several times. What i have seen is too heavy of a drop to bee just from cappings. I agree the cappings are the same type of material but this is from a major remodeling job in the hive.
Sometimes it is in one spot, like they bored a hole through the comb or made an emergency queen cell but more often it is the length of frames after an inspection has rearranged the frames.
From watching my observation hive, it takes several days to cut all of the comb that is touching the glass, especially when there is no room between the glass and the comb and they have to cut the side of the comb and move the honey.
Jim

I just went back and reread (read for the first time?) SueCT's follow-up post about adding the second deep and the old comb.  What you said above makes good sense to me.  I've seen the same thing in my hives where "lines" of similar debris would be on the tray...I've always passed it off as brood cappings but I suppose it has lots (probably more) to do with the bees keeping there hives to "spec".  Thanks for giving me a little more knowledge! :)

SueCT, the first few times I saw this I was concerned as well.  After I saw it several times and the bees were good an strong I decided that it was debris from brood cappings which was a good thing.  With the added information from Jim I still consider it a good thing...the bees are doing what they need to do. ;)

Jim, I do have a question about the bees trimming the comb.  The scenario...  When doing an inspection I remove brood comb and re-install it.  But, when I replace the frames I space a couple of them to close together.  The bees then trim the comb down to get the correct bee space.  In doing so, though, the trimmed brood comb will have cells that are shallower than they were previously.  Will the queen lay in these cells?  Will the workers use these cells for honey/pollen?  :?

Ed

Ed,
As i mentioned earlier, I had the exact situation in the OH last year. The comb in the center of the frame was pushed in and when I put it back it was touching the glass. They cut it back, emptied the honey out of it and left it empty. About a month later they started robbing the wax from that area until they reached the plastic. It ended up being a 6" hole in the frame of honey. I really expected the bees to leave the honey in the short cells and to cap it but they never did. The brood was just below this frame and the queen never tried to lay eggs in it even though it remained open for about a month.
Jim

[LaurieBee]

No one has commented on the bee behavior that was in Sue's video. I'm curious to know what it means. Maybe it's not important and that's why no one had commented on it?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

[BeeMaster2]

No one has commented on the bee behavior that was in Sue's video. I'm curious to know what it means. Maybe it's not important and that's why no one had commented on it?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

I get the impression that it was either a cloudy day or there was no flow on. Probably the only bees going out are the scouts.
Bees do not like to fly if there is no blue sky to navigate by.
If neither of these is correct, I would check to see if they have room  to store nectar or if you have open brood.
Jim

[Intheswamp]

I'm not sure of the behaviour that is being spoken about...seems like going and coming of bees to me, not heavy traffic but still activity.  Jim, in the second video I see a bee or two returning with pollen and other bees appear to land "heavy".

Jim, back to the trimmed comb...so the bees basically abandon the shallow cells?

Ed

[BeeMaster2]

I'm not sure of the behaviour that is being spoken about...seems like going and coming of bees to me, not heavy traffic but still activity.  Jim, in the second video I see a bee or two returning with pollen and other bees appear to land "heavy".

Jim, back to the trimmed comb...so the bees basically abandon the shallow cells?

Ed

Ed, that is correct. Not sure if this is the norm but it is what they did.
I often times see comb capped in honey suppers with shorter comb than this one had so I am not sure why they did not use it. The short comb that I have seen had a fat comb next to it. They maintained bee space.

In the video, there was very little coming and going. If this is a full hive, not many bees were working that day. Sue said it was a nuc that she had already added a second box to. It may bee that due to the amount of work that needed to bee done, very few bees are going out to the field. If it were my hive, I would wait and see. I'm betting that in a few days it will bee back to normal.
Jim

[SueCT]

I keep seeing this behavior regardless of the weather or time of day.  Most of the bottom board is busy with bees coming and going, but there is a little group that are hanging out off to the side and they seem kind of lethargic.  They're just sort of milling around, appear to be grooming, sticking their abdomen's in the air.  I don't know what, if anything to make of it.  It doesn't seem dependent on sun or lack thereof.  It has been warm here - mid 80's with moderate humidity. Not seeing any fanning.  I sat next to the hive again tonight and there were about 10-12 of these bees just sort of hanging out on the front porch.  I think of bees as being, well, busy!  I think of them having a job to do.  So I find it odd that they're just kind of lollygagging out in front of the hive.

[SueCT]

I will add that I have been questioning the end of the main flow here in Connecticut - not seeing nearly as much pollen coming in the front door as I was 2 weeks ago.  Now, I suppose they may be laden down with nectar, but not nearly so many full pollen baskets here. 

[BeeMaster2]

I keep seeing this behavior regardless of the weather or time of day.  Most of the bottom board is busy with bees coming and going, but there is a little group that are hanging out off to the side and they seem kind of lethargic.  They're just sort of milling around, appear to be grooming, sticking their abdomen's in the air.  I don't know what, if anything to make of it.  It doesn't seem dependent on sun or lack thereof.  It has been warm here - mid 80's with moderate humidity. Not seeing any fanning.  I sat next to the hive again tonight and there were about 10-12 of these bees just sort of hanging out on the front porch.  I think of bees as being, well, busy!  I think of them having a job to do.  So I find it odd that they're just kind of lollygagging out in front of the hive.

I suspect what you are seeing is house bees that are not ready for field work and there are too many bee in the hive. Sometimes I see them in the obersavation hive do this when there is lots of room in the hive.
Jim