Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: jclark96 on May 01, 2009, 04:36:28 pm

Title: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: jclark96 on May 01, 2009, 04:36:28 pm
Do the bees fillout parts of all of the frames, or do they fill one frame all the way down first? My package was installed 13 APR and is doing well. I have installed packages before, but on foundation. They are working on 6-7 frames. However none of them are attached at the bottom? Should I be more patient?
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: tillie on May 01, 2009, 04:45:10 pm
Often the bees in my hives don't attach the wax to the bottom - or only attach it in one or two places.  Occasionally as in a hive I checked today, they'll draw it all the way down and attach to the bottom but only in the center 3/4 of the frame - leaving the corners open.  It's never been a problem for me, but I do crush and strain harvesting.

Usually they start by making three sort of ovals - one near the center and one at either end.  Over time they connect these into one large comb as they continue to make wax.  I love opening the hive and finding them festooning from the wax glands on their midsections.

Linda T with a swelling sting on the pad of her thumb in Atlanta
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: annette on May 01, 2009, 05:38:42 pm
Yes I have had the same experience as Tillie with the foundationless frames.  I also do just crush and strain for my honey extraction so no problem.

By the way when they are festooning like that I always feel like I have interrupted something very intimate that they are doing.  I don't know why I feel that way, they just look so very vulnerable and they are sort of stuck together so delicately.  I just love it when I see that, but I always want to close them up and give them privacy.  Hee Hee

Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: TwT on May 01, 2009, 09:11:48 pm
thats the main reason I dont do foundationless, I do starter strips at times but only for cut comb, other than that I am wood and foundation all the way
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Natalie on May 01, 2009, 09:23:05 pm
Annette, thats funny that you say that because I feel the exact same way.
I feel like when I open the hive and see them doing that I have stumbled upon some secret thing they do and I am disturbing their privacy.
I actually closed up one of my hives today because I moved a frame and saw them festooning on a couple of frames and didn't want to disturb them anymore.
I only wanted to check their progress anyway to decide whether they needed another super so I just took a quick peek between the frames and closed it up.

Now the guys are gonna read this and think we are crazy, oh its those women beekeepers acting like...women. ;)
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on May 01, 2009, 10:34:33 pm
They will eventually attach it some.  I extract foundationless every year.  Once it hardens and is attached on 3 sides, its not a problem.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: jclark96 on May 01, 2009, 10:46:05 pm
Thanks for the input, I'll just wait a while and let them do their thing.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: annette on May 01, 2009, 10:53:17 pm
Annette, thats funny that you say that because I feel the exact same way.
I feel like when I open the hive and see them doing that I have stumbled upon some secret thing they do and I am disturbing their privacy.
I actually closed up one of my hives today because I moved a frame and saw them festooning on a couple of frames and didn't want to disturb them anymore.
I only wanted to check their progress anyway to decide whether they needed another super so I just took a quick peek between the frames and closed it up.

Now the guys are gonna read this and think we are crazy, oh its those women beekeepers acting like...women. ;)

Nah, we are just more in touch with the delicate side of the bees. Don't want to destroy all that delicate building they are doing.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Doby45 on May 02, 2009, 11:01:27 am
Don't want to destroy all that delicate building they are doing.

And yet you use the "crush and strain" method.  Ironic, oh I think so. LOL
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: tillie on May 02, 2009, 11:17:29 am
I think it's different to crush and strain when the comb's purpose has been fulfilled - it's capped and full of honey vs. disrupting the hive in the process of building comb whether for honey or for brood.

Linda T in Atlanta, always a champion of the best tasting harvest method: crush and strain
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: annette on May 02, 2009, 04:20:49 pm
Yep thats my answer also.  They are building up to use the combs for a purpose, but when that purpose is done, then I can take it from them.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Shawn on May 02, 2009, 04:48:02 pm
Well, I installed my package on Tuesday (all foundationless) and went out today, Saturday, to release the queen and fill up the feeder. I went to seperate the frames to get the queen out and found the bees were all hanging off of the top making what looked like ladders. I did not see any bees towards the bottom of the hive. I saw they haad about a 6 inch piece of comb across one of the frames and about 3 to 4 inches down. They had built onto another frame but not as nice. They built it to the other frame of comb so I seperated it, making it easier for the next time to take apart, and pushed them back together. I was surpirsed they had built any comb because the temps have been in the 50s and nights in the 30s. Very cloudy and not looking at getting any sun until Tuesday or so. Ill take the rain any day but wish the bees had some sun so they can get out.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on May 03, 2009, 12:12:03 am
The festooning is how they build combs naturally, you won't see it in hives with foundation.  Also all the bees are festooned or clustered in a foundationless hive because they can, again something you won't see in a hive with foundation.  Once the combs are built the hives will look just like any hive with or without foundation.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Shawn on May 12, 2009, 08:44:38 pm
Well very disappointing news. Checked on them today and they had all teh frames combed together. I decided to use some of the frames Robo built for cut outs. I took out their comb the best I could but it was a mess. I tried and tried but nothing was working. I took out most of the foundationless frames, all except for 2, and replaced them with regular frames. I need them to get built up for a good winter so I threw in the towel. I really wanted to do foundationless but cant seem to get them to build it right. Matter of fact I could not even find the queen. I saw some larvae that fell out when I was pulling frames but no queen with a blue mark. 
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Natalie on May 12, 2009, 09:14:31 pm
Thats a bummer, I am surprised it happened like that so quickly. I have gone out to check on them maybe once a week to peek in and see if they need more room and if it looks like they are attaching the frames a little I slide the hive tool in between and seperate them and thats the end of it.
How did the attach every frame together? Cross comb or just stuck together? You couldn't maybe slice them apart and use them?
Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Michael Bush on May 12, 2009, 09:14:50 pm
At first it's like the comb is growing from the cluster.  While the combs are parallel the edges of the comb form a hemisphere.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: TwT on May 12, 2009, 10:32:36 pm
I have frames of starter strip that I tried as brood frames 3 years ago that still is not attached at the bottom and only half connected at the sides, looked at three of them today, foundation for me period!!!!!
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Michael Bush on May 12, 2009, 10:55:13 pm
And when you use the foundation, they chew that space out anyway...
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Shawn on May 12, 2009, 11:01:09 pm
They were building it nice. When I took out the four frames that were all connected it looked like comb you would see from a cut out, piece behind peace but attached to the same frame. Maybe its my fault, maybe I needed more of a starter strip. The comb was the nicest thing I have ever saw. Very white and transparent. I might have not seen the eggs because of how white the comb was.

Michael, are you saying after they get it all done they would cut the pieces away from each other?
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: TwT on May 12, 2009, 11:06:46 pm
And when you use the foundation, they chew that space out anyway...


thats a load of bull , they might leave corners out at times (very seldom) but not chew out the whole bottom or sides, if I misunderstood this quote please explain?
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Michael Bush on May 13, 2009, 10:37:22 pm
>if I misunderstood this quote please explain?

I commonly see them chew out one entire side and 3/4 of the way across the bottom on brood combs when using wax foundation.  Of course they can't on plastic.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: TwT on May 14, 2009, 09:29:00 am
>if I misunderstood this quote please explain?

I commonly see them chew out one entire side and 3/4 of the way across the bottom on brood combs when using wax foundation.  Of course they can't on plastic.


have not see this much around here ever sometimes the corners but thats about it.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Eshu on May 15, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
I just bought a couple nucs where they chewed out the entire bottom of the foundation on all frames.  At first glance I thought they were foundationless until I saw the wires going to the bottom bars.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Doby45 on May 15, 2009, 02:49:59 pm
Those still might have been foundationless.  I have seen people wire empty frames to support the comb once the bees build it out.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on May 16, 2009, 02:04:03 am
Those still might have been foundationless.  I have seen people wire empty frames to support the comb once the bees build it out.

Re-read the last entry again.

I just bought a couple nucs where they chewed out the entire bottom of the foundation on all frames.  At first glance I thought they were foundationless until I saw the wires going to the bottom bars.

That sounds to me like he was using crimped wire foundation and the bees ate most of the wax away.  They will do that if they need to build comb for the queen and there's not enough forage to feed the hive, the brood, and build comb, and increase stores at the same time.  The reason I will not use or recommend Durigilt under any conditions.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Eshu on May 18, 2009, 01:49:11 pm
Yes, the vertical wires were crimped, so I doubt they are wired foundationless frames.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: jclark96 on May 20, 2009, 09:18:34 pm
I have been busy building SHB traps, so I got distracted for a while.

They have now filled 6-7 frames almost completely, and working on 2-3 more. The almost complete frames aren't all the way attatched but getting closer.

I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Funny, bees have been around for 50 bazillion years, we've been "keeping" them for a few hundred, and we think that we are in charge. I will let them continue doing their thing.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: wisconsin_cur on May 20, 2009, 09:42:59 pm
I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Could you just apply a little of your own wax back on the plastic?  Rotate out frames where there is no wax on the plastic, bring it in, reapply wax, reuse the next year?
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on May 21, 2009, 02:46:05 am
I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Could you just apply a little of your own wax back on the plastic?  Rotate out frames where there is no wax on the plastic, bring it in, reapply wax, reuse the next year?

The reason bees will build combs on foundation is because of the inprint.  No inprint and the bees won't touch it, they'll build all kinds of weird things but not combs where the beekeeper wants them.  Remove the slab of wax or plastic and the bees will draw combs from the top bar down.
To get bees to draw combs you either need a foundation that has the cell pattern embossed upon it or not use foundation at all.  Those are really your only 2 options.  If using embossed foundation, how it is attached to the frame is up to the beekeeper.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: deknow on May 21, 2009, 09:58:59 am
a couple of thoughts:

1.  tautz (in "the buzz about bees") talks about the bees removing the bottom of the foundation only of frames where the waggle dance is to be performed.  remember, it's dark in the hive, and it's the vibrations on the comb, not the visual dance that is transmitted.  the open space allows the wax to expand and contract without being "loaded down"....it allows for better vibration.  i'ts also worth noting that the photographs in this book appear to be all foundtionless.

2.  in the past, there have been mechanisms to allow one to turn the frames upside down (either frames that can be flipped in the box, or a box that can hold the frames in while upside down).  if the comb doesn't fall over, the bees will attach it to the "top" (which was the bottom).

deknow
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: wisconsin_cur on May 21, 2009, 10:03:11 am
I guess I was thinking of the pireco frames... I don't have one handy to go check but I thought the plastic also had the imprint.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: Michael Bush on May 24, 2009, 11:52:47 pm
Another method used by Jay Smith was to leave the bottom bar down 1/4" (nailed but not all the way in)until the comb was drawn within 1/4" and then push it the rest of the way in.
Title: Re: Filling Foundationless Frames
Post by: jclark96 on May 29, 2009, 08:20:46 am
My hive is about six weeks old now. They have mostly filled 9-10 of the 11 frames. I left them crowded for a little longer than I would have a few years ago, SHB and hopefully to get them to draw the frames out a little more.

I haven't had any problems with the frames, but the state inspector nearly broke one off the other day. Really nice guy, but I guess I am the only one trying this out in my area. In the end they are doing well.