early split attempt - upstate NY..... may be too early????

[dfizer]

Ok so I probably made a colossal mistake today however boredom got the better of me.  Since our weather is supposed to be in the 60's-70's for the next 6 days I decided to attempt a split.  It started with an innocent call to a local beekeeping supply business to order some hardware where, in casual conversation, I learned that they have a Carniolian queen available late tomorrow or Thursday.  Given that I'm wanting to make a split I thought.... Hmmmm.  I told the girl on the phone that I'd take the queen.  So, when I was inspecting my hives today I decided to rob three frames of capped honey and two frames of partially filled brood (some capped, some not) to make a split / nuc.  Also, one of these frames had a lot of empty cells too.  With these 5 frames in a nuc box I shook in a few hundred bees.  After I got the top on the nuc I put a piece of screen over the entrance to keep the bees in.  Tomorrow I'll take this nuc away from the yard and allow it to be queen-less until I go get my new queen.   At that point I'll introduce her to the queen-less nuc.  Thoughts, suggestions?

One thing I didn't consider is, what if I shook the frame containing the queen from my existing hive into my nuc?   That would be no good but what are the chances...  I guess pretty good when Murphy is in the mix.  I guess prior to introducing the new queen to the nuc I'll give it a thorough inspection to make sure there is no queen present.  Other than that I don't really know what to do.

David

PS - I learned a valuable lesson today - 1) never wear jeans with holes in the knees when performing full inspections.  Ouch!!! times 4!  Also, 2) don't panic if bees get inside your veil - I had three bees get inside the veil and much to my surprise - they had no desire to do damage.  I just left them alone since they were far more interested in finding a way out than in stinging me.  After an hour or so I took my veil off and they flew back home!

[BlueBee]

We’re expecting some snow tomorrow.  I would assume that is headed your way.

With our late spring this year, I would have held off on splitting, but what is done is done and the bees are pretty flexible.   The queens are usually a little easier to spot in a nuc vs a full sized hive.  If you fear Murphy, it might be a good idea to check the frames in your nuc after you move it to your new location.  Laying queens are pretty fat and stand out from the crowd.

[capt44]

I agree with Blue Bee, should have waited.
I thought I was safe raising queens but the temps dropped and I lost all but 2 out of 40
I'm going to give it another try Saturday.

[Caelansbees]

Can you separate it by double screen and stick it on top of a strong hive for warmth? 

[Finski]

 With these 5 frames in a nuc box I shook in a few hundred bees.  

After I got the top on the nuc I put a piece of screen over the entrance to keep the bees in.  Tomorrow I'll take this nuc away from the yard and allow it to be queen-less until I go get my new queen.   At that point I'll introduce her to the queen-less nuc.  Thoughts, suggestions?

Bees have oriented and they return home.

Few hundreds bees and 5 frames....that is impossible start to the colony when it is snowing.

To split colonies in this time of year is a bad thing. Normal beekeepers join week colonies in spring.

But what about your one hive. Is its queen OK?

"Hive 2 - A lot of empty cells and frames completely empty.  A lot of bees but no capped brood and since it was starting to get dark I couldn't tell if there were any eggs / larva in the cells.  What I did see was a lot of cells that had a lot of liquid in them but were not capped.  I kind of expected to see some capped brood in this hive however none.  I am kind of worried about his hive since I didn't see any capped brood.  I guess that time will tell.  "

If you take a brood frame from stong hive, the queen will soon walk on the frame, it it is there.
It it is queenless, it should start to make emergency cells.

.

[Finski]

.
Pdpfizer

If you are not sure, if the queen is in the hive, move hive 2   7 feet and put that 5 frame nuc on the old site.
Then put there a brood frame that beed feel chosy there.

Bees will move away from old hive and if it has a queen, it stays there.

Then you may give a new queen to the nuc.

If hive 2 has no queen, join the rest bees into nuc.
Perhaps they fly all themselves to the new nuc.

..

[dfizer]

Thank you for the advice... Just to clarify - there is no snow here and the temps are supposed to be 73 today.  The highs for the next 5 days do not go below 62.  The lows are in the low 40's.  Also, I probably put more than a couple hundred bees in but it was certainly nothing like half the bees there or anything like that.  I will be taking the fabricated nuc away from the bee yard today.  It's new location will be about 3 miles away.  How long do those bees need to be away until I can bring them back to my yard? 

As for Hive 2 - I am worried about it for sure.  I will open it up again today when I have more sunlight to see if there are any eggs or larva.  After that I will set my strategy. 

Again thanks again for the advice. 

David

[Finski]

.
When langstroth box is full of bees, it has 20 000 bees.
To make a nuc you need minimum 2 frames covered with bees andit is 4000 bees.
Not hunreds.

[fshrgy99]

Not that I'm in any way qualified to give advice

.......sounds to me like  the issue is 'queen, queen, where's your queen? Your nuke will succeed ... or not. If you shook your queen into the nuke and you add the new queen to the same nuke and it's too cold to survive ... is it not goodbye to both queens (unless you follow Caelans advice)? Still, I think your hive will be ok as it accepts the loss of your queen and starts supercedure. I believe spring production will increase in that case as they run out of brood to feed and start packing away pollen and honey. ... I think.

Worst case scenario ... your nuc fails and your hive supercedes=more patience in the future
Best case scenario ... you were 'bang on' all along ....brilliant!

[themayor]

Off topic....  What bee supply in upstate ny do you use?
I'm right here in cny as well.

[dfizer]

@themayor - I use betterbee in greenwich NY.  They recently were purchased by a couple of really good guys.  I now recommend them full bore.  If you're in there and have questions they will take as long as needed to explain everything to you.  I was just in there today to pick up a Carniolian queen and as usual I left very happy. 

all the best...

David

[dfizer]

We’re expecting some snow tomorrow.  I would assume that is headed your way.

With our late spring this year, I would have held off on splitting, but what is done is done and the bees are pretty flexible.   The queens are usually a little easier to spot in a nuc vs a full sized hive.  If you fear Murphy, it might be a good idea to check the frames in your nuc after you move it to your new location.  Laying queens are pretty fat and stand out from the crowd.

Thank goodness that we are done with the snow.  I looks like we have daytime temps in the mid 60's and 70's (15C-24C) for the next two weeks - so says the weather man.  I learned along time ago that the weatherman cannot and should not be trusted!!!!

I looked in the nuc once I got it moved today and there is no queen present.  whew!  I will be putting the queen I got today in later tonight and will be hoping for the best!

Well - wish me luck!~

David

[dfizer]

 With these 5 frames in a nuc box I shook in a few hundred bees.  

After I got the top on the nuc I put a piece of screen over the entrance to keep the bees in.  Tomorrow I'll take this nuc away from the yard and allow it to be queen-less until I go get my new queen.   At that point I'll introduce her to the queen-less nuc.  Thoughts, suggestions?

Bees have oriented and they return home.

Few hundreds bees and 5 frames....that is impossible start to the colony when it is snowing.

To split colonies in this time of year is a bad thing. Normal beekeepers join week colonies in spring.

But what about your one hive. Is its queen OK?

"Hive 2 - A lot of empty cells and frames completely empty.  A lot of bees but no capped brood and since it was starting to get dark I couldn't tell if there were any eggs / larva in the cells.  What I did see was a lot of cells that had a lot of liquid in them but were not capped.  I kind of expected to see some capped brood in this hive however none.  I am kind of worried about his hive since I didn't see any capped brood.  I guess that time will tell.  "

If you take a brood frame from stong hive, the queen will soon walk on the frame, it it is there.
It it is queenless, it should start to make emergency cells.

Good news!  It looks like I have a queen in Hive 2.  There is boat loads of pollen coming in which is enough of a good indicator for me.  I am not opening the hive again just going to let them sort it out.  The worse case scenario would be that they are queenless and they build a queen cell and grow their own.  With this I only lose time and I'm ok with that!

David

[BlueBee]

Thank goodness that we are done with the snow.

Don't count the snow out yet  :-D  It's snowing here as I type.  I had to take a break from the tree planting because of this new cold wave.

Good luck with the hives.

When you see them bringing in pollen that is always a very good sign.  X:X

[Michael Bush]

>Good news!  It looks like I have a queen in Hive 2.  There is boat loads of pollen coming in which is enough of a good indicator for me.

I wouldn't get too excited until you see capped worker brood...

[dfizer]

>Good news!  It looks like I have a queen in Hive 2.  There is boat loads of pollen coming in which is enough of a good indicator for me.

I wouldn't get too excited until you see capped worker brood...

How long should I wait to check for capped brood?  Please advise

David

[Finski]

.
Question is now, does it have eggs and larvae.
Pollen coming in is nothing indicator if you do not see eggs.

.

[dfizer]

I didn't want to disturb the hive anymore than I already had so I didn't open it up to check for eggs.  I thought when the bees are bringing in pollen it that meant there was a queen in the hive.... at least a few days ago.  Therefore if the queen was there a few days ago then she's there now.  The time I may have damaged her was about 3 weeks ago. 

If I have the time today I'll go take a quick peek to see if there are eggs / larva.  What I did notice was that the pollen they were bringing in was stored around the top corners and outside of the frames - the center of the frames was really wet looking.  I assumed that there were eggs in the frames but due to low light conditions at the time I couldn't really see any eggs or larva. 

 

[10framer]

the center of the frame was really wet looking?  the bottom of the cells in the center of the frames or do the cells look full of water?   

[dfizer]

OMG!  This is maddening!  I just opened the hive back up for the second time in three days and cannot find any eggs or larva in the top box.  The wet cells that are located near the center of the frames look to be uncapped honey that the bees are consuming.  While in the hive I noticed a couple of queen cells in the center of some of the frames in the top box.  I did not go through every frame however I pulled the ones that looked the most "broody" and the only thing I saw were bees, a couple of queen cells in the center of the frames, and open cells of honey.  There were no bees bringing in pollen today either.  What's up with that?  I did not check the bottom box for brood since the bees were relatively aggressive which leads me to believe that they may be queen-less.  Normally I don't wear gloves and have not had any issues but today, no sooner than I got the first frame out of the box, bang - stung right on the wrist. 

My issue now is that I called the queen supplier and they are not getting any more queens until Wednesday of next week.  Also, yesterday I put the newly purchased queen in the nuc split I made.  Does it make any sense to consider going over to that nuc to check if she is still in the cage and if so remove her from it and put her in the queenless hive? 

Ugh - this is excitingly maddening!  Lesson learned - I should have left well enough alone! 

David