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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 03:32:47 pm

Title: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 03:32:47 pm
A little background.  Installed a nuc May 12 this year.  Slow start due to chilly rainy weather in NJ.  weather is now more seasonably warm (80+).  Was inspecting weekly in the beginning.
Went 2 weeks this time expecting great progress.  They still occupy the 4 original frames.  Only one frame has spotty brood and everything on it is capped drone cells.  The other 3 frames have honey, pollen, nectar and bee bread.  Feeling things are not going well AT ALL. ( I've had my doubts all along.).   When is too late to requeen?  I've seen a couple of wonky supercedure cells but the original queen still reigns supreme.  Afraid I'm going to be behind the 8 ball soon.

HELP PLEASE!
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Moots on June 28, 2013, 03:55:19 pm
...but the original queen still reigns supreme....


Are you sure you still have a queen and not a laying worker?

Also, I assume this is your only hive?
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 04:13:51 pm
the original queen is marked so she is still there and how would i know if I have a laying worker (other than 2 eggs per cell) and not a drone laying queen?  I see larvae at different stages but every cell that is capped is a drone.

Yes, this is my only hive.  
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Moots on June 28, 2013, 06:20:16 pm
the original queen is marked so she is still there and how would i know if I have a laying worker (other than 2 eggs per cell) and not a drone laying queen?  I see larvae at different stages but every cell that is capped is a drone.

Yes, this is my only hive.  

Sally,
I'm still young in the Beek game so hopefully others will hop in. Sounds like you have a bad queen, Id requeen ASAP and pinch the existing queen.  May want to have a conversation with whoever you purchased the NUC from.  I was just asking about a laying worker because if that was the case it can complicate the requesting process.

Good luck.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 06:56:48 pm
I'm not thrilled with who I got my nuc from because they weren't  all that helpful when I questioned this queen weeks ago.   I'd have to contact another local beek  and hope is not to late in the season 1. To requeen  2. To build up enough to survive the winter. 
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Moots on June 28, 2013, 07:09:34 pm
I'm not thrilled with who I got my nuc from because they weren't  all that helpful when I questioned this queen weeks ago.   I'd have to contact another local beek  and hope is not to late in the season 1. To requeen  2. To build up enough to survive the winter. 

Sally,
I know your "season" in NJ is MUCH Different than what we have in Louisiana.  That being said, it's not even July yet, I'd have to think if you requeened ASAP they'd have a decent chance.  Considering it's your only hive, I don't see where you really have any other options.

I know this advice comes late, but this is really why a "one hive" start up approach has a lot of disadvantages.

Your only other option is to try to get another hive, Nuc, or swarm and do a combine or shake out.  Or donate them to a local Beek to either combine or shake them out.  One thing is pretty obvious...they have no chance on the path they are currently on. 

Personally, I'd requeen...think of it as a $20 lottery ticket.  :)

Good luck!
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: zzzzzzzzpr on June 28, 2013, 07:33:58 pm
I live in Oklahoma and had a queenless hive. I just started requeening the hive. I have no local beek here that sell queens til July.
he requeens before the winter on all his hives. why? couldn't tell you. I think if you requeen now you may save your hive now.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 07:50:19 pm
I will contact another to requeen this hive.  Fingers crossed this works in time.  Thank you for your advice.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Steel Tiger on June 28, 2013, 08:02:39 pm
There's a place in New York that sells queens. It might be worth the drive to grab one if they're still available...or have one mailed. According to their website, they're locally raised norther queens, so should do great in NJ.

 White Oak Apiary (http://whiteoakapiary.com/Hygenic_Queens_Bees_4_Sale.html)
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 28, 2013, 09:43:22 pm
Thank you for the link.  I have a couple locals so i'm going to reach out to them tonight and see what I find.  At least I know I have  a chance!
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: dfizer on June 28, 2013, 11:19:38 pm
To requeen - make sure you leave the hive queenless for 24-48 hours before introducing the new queen.  I usually put the new queen in the hive in the afternoon following a day of being completely queenless.  I tape the candy end closed so that they cannon release her then I make sure the new queen is left in the hive in her cage for at least 3 full days.  Then I remove the tape and hope the workers release her.  I check to make sure they indeed released her after 3 more days.  If they haven't I poke a very small hole in the candy plug with a very small drill bit just using my fingers to drill the hole.  I wait another 3 days and if she is still not out on her own I remove the rest of the candy and release her myself.  I leave the hive alone for 10 days after that then I check for brood/eggs/larvae.  This method has not failed me yet. 

David

btw - our climates are not that much different and I believe you can have a thriving hive that has plenty of strength to survive your winter if you go ahead and requeen now. 
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 29, 2013, 06:38:22 pm
Another question...so if the queen is not producing well why wouldn't they supercede  her? 
Do you all agree that at 6 weeks from a nuc I should have more than one spotty  frame of brood? 
I don't want to give up and am thinking I should have heeded the warning of starting with just one hive.  Hind sight is always 20/20.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: charlie68 on June 29, 2013, 06:58:56 pm
your nuk is so small you don't have enough bees for the queen to lay  she will only lay as many eggs as the bees can keep warm. bees only live about 6 weeks most of the bees you got with the nuk are dead. the slow start she had put her behind i don't think a new queen will help you said there was one frame of brood thats really not enough you need more bees
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 29, 2013, 07:25:33 pm
So what do I do, see if I can purchase a brood frame from someone?  Would that even help since you say I don't have enough bees to keep the brood warm?
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Steel Tiger on June 29, 2013, 09:46:54 pm
It's been 2 months since I started my hives with a couple nucs. About a month and a half later I had frames with spotty brood. The following week it was a solid pattern. I'm now having a nice population boom.
 It's sounds to me as if you're nuc may have been thrown together and not raised as a nuc. Give them another week or so and perhaps the pattern will become more solid as that spotty brood emerges and she has more workers.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: charlie68 on June 29, 2013, 10:01:39 pm
  you could wait a week and see if the brood you have hatch out  then she will lay more  the bees that hatch out will be house bees for about 15 days  they will cover any new eggs  those will hatch in about21 days just about the time the house bees start going out  then it starts all over again each time she should lay more  in time your hive will build up
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 29, 2013, 10:27:00 pm
A big concern is that the capped brood appears to be all drones.
I will go in tomorrow and take video and pix.   I'm not sure how to estimate the number of bees that are in the hive but my guess would be 2000. Big guess.   But with pix you guys will see exactly what I'm talking about about brood pattern and capped drone.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: 10framer on June 30, 2013, 12:54:08 pm
I live in Oklahoma and had a queenless hive. I just started requeening the hive. I have no local beek here that sell queens til July.
he requeens before the winter on all his hives. why? couldn't tell you. I think if you requeen now you may save your hive now.

he's re-queening in july so that he has a queen able to build up for next year's flow quickly most likely.  it also leaves time for the bees to supersede any faulty queens before winter most likely.  we used to re-queen around the first of august if i remember correctly. 
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Wolfer on June 30, 2013, 02:09:43 pm
I suspect you have a drone laying queen. The bees can't supersede her because they don't have any female eggs. She will lay in worker cells but the drone police will take them out.
It's possible that even with a new queen you won't have enough nurse bee to take care of very many and may take a long time to build up. Probably more time than you have.

If you could find a frame of worker capped brood and a new queen would be your best chance.
Would like to see the pictures of your brood.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 30, 2013, 04:13:27 pm
these are the pictures from today.  brood frame is just frame 1.  I didn't spot the queen today which is very unusual but trying to get pictures and trying not to drop anything was difficult enough.  i only see drone cells.  =(

This is an overview of the frames
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0173.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0173.jpg.html)


frame 1 side 1
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0179.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0179.jpg.html)

frame 1 side 2
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0180.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0180.jpg.html)

frame 2 side 1
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0182.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0182.jpg.html)

frame 2 side 2
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0183.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0183.jpg.html)

frame 3 side 1
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0184.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0184.jpg.html)

frame 3 side 2
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0185.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0185.jpg.html)


frame 5 side 1
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0186.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0186.jpg.html)

frame 5 side 2
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/just5398/IMG_0187.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/just5398/media/IMG_0187.jpg.html)
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Steel Tiger on June 30, 2013, 06:36:25 pm
Looks like a capped queen cell ready to pop on frame 1. Looks as if they decided to requeen before you decided.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on June 30, 2013, 06:48:00 pm
This is the third one they've made.   Each one hatches but I never see a new queen.  Also notice it's a wonky shape.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Steel Tiger on June 30, 2013, 07:14:18 pm
 Maybe you'll be better of spending the $20-30 for a new queen. There's that place in NY that I gave you the info on and there's a place in Vt that has nice queens. This is where I bought my nucs from and I'm having no problems yet. I checked for mites yesterday and saw none. I saw 1 small hive beetle the day after I brought them home. Crushed it and haven't seen any since.
 Overall, I'm pretty happy with them.
 Singing Cedar Apiaries (http://www.vtbees.com/queens.htm)

 There's enough information on introducing queens to a hive floating around the forum. You'll want to make absolutely sure there is no queen in the hive before adding a new one.
 Good Luck
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 01, 2013, 10:29:22 am
> Only one frame has spotty brood and everything on it is capped drone cells. 

Sounds like laying workers or a failed queen.

>The other 3 frames have honey, pollen, nectar and bee bread.  Feeling things are not going well AT ALL. ( I've had my doubts all along.).   When is too late to requeen?

It is tough at this point.

>I've seen a couple of wonky supercedure cells but the original queen still reigns supreme.

"wonky supercedure cells"?  What is wonky about them?  If all your brood is drones, then these are also.

A frame of eggs from another hive is always a good plan.

Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on July 01, 2013, 12:50:46 pm
 by wonky cell I mean it's shape.  It has the normal peanut shape coming downward but it has another shorter peanut shape coming out the side.  Like the shape of your pointer finger and thumb together.

Do you think I should just give up at this point and start anew in the spring?  I have no idea.  Im feeling defeated at this point.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 01, 2013, 03:00:55 pm
>Do you think I should just give up at this point and start anew in the spring?

If you have another hive, I'd give them a frame of open brood and eggs.

Assuming your "wonky" queen cell is a viable one, then you should have eggs from that queen somewhere between two and four weeks from now.  She will emerge somewhere between 0-8 days from now and mate somewhere between two and three weeks after that.

Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on July 01, 2013, 03:50:13 pm
this is my only hive and don't know anyone I feel comfortable enough to ask for a frame of brood.  Im thinking either way Im going to get two hives going in the spring.  I can't put them (myself) in this position again.    Lesson learned the hard way!

what happens to the egg in the queen cell if it is a drone egg?  does it hatch out in the 24 days like in a regular drone cell?  If something hatches out in a shorter number of days can I assume it's a viable queen?
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 01, 2013, 04:18:32 pm
>what happens to the egg in the queen cell if it is a drone egg?

http://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells (http://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells)
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on July 05, 2013, 04:32:32 pm
state inspector came, drone layer.  Pulling the plug for this year.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Moots on July 05, 2013, 05:50:58 pm
state inspector came, drone layer.  Pulling the plug for this year.

5398,
Sorry to hear that...File it under experience and go get them next year.  I'd strongly suggest 2 hives, it provides you with a nice comparision and contrast for monitoring progress, as well as giving you lots more options for dealing with problems...such as the one you experienced this year.

Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Mircea_63 on July 05, 2013, 07:02:09 pm
A little background.  Installed a nuc May 12 this year.  Slow start due to chilly rainy weather in NJ.  weather is now more seasonably warm (80+).  Was inspecting weekly in the beginning.
Went 2 weeks this time expecting great progress.  They still occupy the 4 original frames.  Only one frame has spotty brood and everything on it is capped drone cells.  The other 3 frames have honey, pollen, nectar and bee bread.  Feeling things are not going well AT ALL. ( I've had my doubts all along.).   When is too late to requeen?  I've seen a couple of wonky supercedure cells but the original queen still reigns supreme.  Afraid I'm going to be behind the 8 ball soon.

HELP PLEASE!

 In beekeeping, when you don`t know what to do, it`s better do nothing. Let the bees to do what they have to do.

 Best time to requeening is fall time.
 Best moment is 6 hours after queenless. :angel:



Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Oblio13 on July 05, 2013, 08:39:16 pm
Michael, obviously this particular hive is a lost cause, but do you feel it's late in the season for re-queening in general? Even starting from scratch with a four-day-old larvae, there would be brood by mid-August with all of September and part of October left, and New England usually has a pretty good flow from asters and golden rod.

I'm curious because I just did a walk-away split this morning and I hope I didn't doom them.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Oblio13 on July 05, 2013, 08:40:28 pm

Michael, obviously this particular hive is a lost cause, but do you feel it's late in the season for re-queening in general? Or did I misunderstand your statement? Even starting from scratch with a four-day-old larvae, there would be brood by mid-August with all of September and part of October left, and New England usually has a pretty good flow from asters and golden rod.

I just did a walk-away split this morning and now I'm apprehensive that I've inadvertently doomed them.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Mircea_63 on July 06, 2013, 03:15:45 am
 When is too late to requeen?  I've seen a couple of wonky supercedure cells but the original queen still reigns supreme.  Afraid I'm going to be behind the 8 ball soon.
HELP PLEASE!

You have no problems! Let they alone for two weeks. Don`t open the hive in this 2 w. You will have a new queen and she need quiet for mate and start to laying. For a time, will be 2 queens :shock: in your hive.
 After this time, add new frame or comb and give 100 ml syrup 1/1 sugar-water, daily in the evening. In first days of September feed for wintering.

BTW Requeening means: out old queen and get a new mate queen. Now you don`t requeen! The bees do it! Let they to do this job, because they are professional.

I tell you a little secret. Put a half little onion in juice maker and add juice - a tea spoon- in 1 liter syrup.  


Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Just5398 on July 06, 2013, 10:59:51 am
Under normal circumstances they would create their own queen, which is what they are trying to do, but they can't if I have a drone laying queen/worker.  The hive is a lost cause right now since I don't have any other hives to rob brood from.  Nor do I have anyone local offering up a frame or two to right this hive.  The state inspector said to let the hive get robbed of its resources before the wax moths hit and I'll have comb to use next year.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Mircea_63 on July 06, 2013, 12:09:55 pm
 I am sorry, only now I saw images.  You need a new family bees. 
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: sc-bee on July 06, 2013, 01:45:39 pm
 When is too late to requeen?  I've seen a couple of wonky supercedure cells but the original queen still reigns supreme.  Afraid I'm going to be behind the 8 ball soon.
HELP PLEASE!
I tell you a little secret. Put a half little onion in juice maker and add Joyce - a tea spoon- in 1 liter syrup. 

I got it now juice. And what does the Joyce do?
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Mircea_63 on July 06, 2013, 02:18:38 pm
 Extended bees life. No jokes, I am serious. I hope you understand what I try to tell you. I am not an english speaker.
The natural juice made from onion contain more fitoncide.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: sc-bee on July 06, 2013, 03:10:49 pm
Extended bees life. No jokes, I am serious. I hope you understand what I try to tell you. I am not an english speaker.
The natural juice made from onion contain more fitoncide.

You are doing great with the English. Better than I would if it were the other way around. Interesting juice tip.
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: GSF on July 06, 2013, 10:32:37 pm
Extended bees life. No jokes, I am serious. I hope you understand what I try to tell you. I am not an english speaker.
The natural juice made from onion contain more fitoncide.

Ditto on the English, you're doing good! and welcome. We have a saying down south; "The doors always open and a biscuit's on the table" (just another way of saying welcome)
Title: Re: when to requeen?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 08, 2013, 10:47:13 am
>Michael, obviously this particular hive is a lost cause

No, a frame of brood will probably set things right if it's a failing queen.  A frame every week for three weeks always seems to work for laying workers.

> but do you feel it's late in the season for re-queening in general? Even starting from scratch with a four-day-old larvae, there would be brood by mid-August with all of September and part of October left, and New England usually has a pretty good flow from asters and golden rod.

>I'm curious because I just did a walk-away split this morning and I hope I didn't doom them.

If you get a dearth be sure to feed them.  If not, then let them build up on nectar.  They will probably do fine.