Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BULLSEYE BILL on February 01, 2010, 10:36:35 pm
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Looks like they are going to hype up the old 'killer' bee story on the History channel. :shock:
Wed
2/3
9:00-10:00pm
HISTORY
Thu
2/4
1:01-2:01am
HISTORY
.Sat
2/6
2:00-3:00pm
HISTORY
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I don't see that one on my listing here in Florida with FIOS.
Science Channel did one last week called Mutant Bees it was interesting.
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Thanks for the heads up. I am always looking for a bee documentary to watch.
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Thanx Bill!
I'll be watching out for this one!
your friend,
john
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A friend of mine who wanted me to put a few hives on his land saw this show and he was really excited. He continuously referred to Apis Melifera as "killer bees". Never mentioned that word before the program! Obviously, he is no longer interested in having "KILLERS" on his property.
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I was just going to post this! I always watch or dvr the show & was pleasantly surprised tonight. I wonder how much is "hyped" tho, they do stuff for shock value I'm sure! Jody
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Just watched the show. I know much is hype. However, I sure would like to see some real studies on how cold temps can be before they freeze to death. In the show they make it sound like they never clustered before and as if clustering was something new to them. The cooler they put them in was 23 degrees I believe. A far cry from twenty below.
Anybody know of some good studies that prove they will die in cold temps? How do we know they will not slowly but surly cover the lower 48 over the next 100 years. It also sounds like they are meaner than they used to be. Is the hybrid meaner than the pure blood?
It seems to me that if they could survive freezing temps for very long they would have made a foot hold somewhere that is a mild area in the north from a migrating beak. Queens are superseded all the time. You cant tell me that AHB has not had chances to populate northern areas in commercial operations coming from the south.
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I haven't watched the program yet but the local university has an expansive program for the study of honey bees and the Africanized honey bee is of particular interest. NC State has been tracking the movement north for years and their latest report was that northern movement appears to have stalled. Researchers are not quite sure why at this point. While Americanized bees are common in the border states (TX, LA, NM, GA, etc.), I don't believe that "killers" have been confirmed in NC. Yet!
Anybody else in NC have reports of killer honey bees?
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I was able to catch about the last 10 / 15 minutes of the show. For being AHB, what I questioned in this segment was they were able to drive right up to the hive, lift up the cover, peek in, suit up, set up a smoker, lift cut timber etc with out getting attacked as they are known to do.
Maybe a watered down gentler version of AHB
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i watched a bit of the 1st half hour. why did they call them giant killer bees? they said in the show that they were the same size as other honey bees.
the way they attacked in that abandoned home was pretty special......
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Well, if you take two of the European Breeds and cross them they become hybrid, and aggressive. Been there, done that. I didn't see anything new except about the thing about clustering, nuff said about that. We all know about it.
The Armadillo is moving north and adapting. Over time these Africanized Bees will too.
The European genes will only help them over come the climate.
I feel quite sure there is a difference in being attacked and stung by the Africanized Bees, opposed to
our home bees, But remember, If one has an allergic reaction to stings it only takes one of anything to do you in.
We also know about the media and Hollywood, both can take it to the limit and scare the hell out of people that don't know. :)doak
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Kathyp, that is the problem with English speech.
It was "Giant" in the title. Finally they used the term, "Giant Swarms".
It doesn't have to be 50 or 60 thousand, if it is a swarm with only 1000 bees in it, That is a giant swarm if it is attacking me. Or maybe even only 100. Will I stop to count? don't think so. :roll: :roll: :shock: :)doak
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Just watched the show. I know much is hype. However, I sure would like to see some real studies on how cold temps can be before they freeze to death. In the show they make it sound like they never clustered before and as if clustering was something new to them. The cooler they put them in was 23 degrees I believe. a far cry from twenty below.
I only could stand watching it for 15-20 minutes before I changed the channel. I did catch the portion on putting them in the 23 degree cooler. The part that got me, was their statement if they could survive in Las Vegas climate they could survive anywhere... :roll: And then that exterminator joker running around Las Vegas at night looking for places they could nest, I couldn't take anymore......
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Let's see.............which title would really get the average person's attention:
GIANT KILLER Bees......................or
Honey Bees with Attitude
GIANT Pumpkins for Sale..............or
Pumpkins for Sale
GIANT Car Sale.............................or
Cars for Sale
It's all in how you package your product! :-D
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The truth was stretched and exaggerated thorough the whole episode. I watched the whole thing to learn what I could while reading between the lines. It is depressing that people with no knowledge will watch it and have an un-realistic view of the situation. I hope someone will make a documentary that is fair to the beekeeper and the bee and does not use terms that are used just to raise ratings and cause fear like Giant Monster Swarms of Killer Bees. It is the same thing as calling some idiot with and IQ of 85 the Master Mind behind a crime. You can not watch TV, Read a Newspaper, or consume just about any media without filtering out the propaganda that is used to strike fear, hate, or whatever the author is doing to try to influence you or get ratings.
That said, you can not ignore the real threat these bees posses. I hope science can find what genes make them dominant and turn it around so the euros wipe out the African genes and not the other way around or at least are not so susceptible. I believe without the presence of euro honeybees that the killer bee would not move much beyond where it is but that the fact that they have a bridge to use (the established Euros) that it will happen. I hope I am wrong or that it takes hundred of years.
Can someone answer definitively if the AHB are more aggressive because of being hybrid? Got any link to an article?
I think this is one area where we will have to turn to science and will not be allowed to let nature take its course if we want to preserve our strain of honeybee. I think with enough money and research a poison or something could be developed that would oly target the ahb genes.
It frustrating, that for sure.
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If you take a colony of Italian and one of Corneal en and cross these, you have a hybrid, you also have a more aggressive bee than either of the other two. Does this answer your question?
Also the AHB came from the pure African breed "which is aggressive to begin with" crossed with the European bee, which in any one of the breed's in pure form is docile.
The African aggressiveness genes is dominate over the European gentleness genes.
This should not be that hard to under stand. If we want to rear queens we are surly going to pick our most gentle colony to rear a queen from, if it is also a productive colony.
If you have an aggressive colony in your bee yard that re queening doesn't fix, then you will want to move that colony far far away from your breeding grounds, If you are going to rear gentle strands.
I am also against calling these AHB's (KILLER) bees.
Any one who is allergic to bee stings can die from only one sting from a gentle strand.
We, the beekeepers should let people know some of these things. We are not like the Media, we are not in it for ratings.
Yes, we should not take the subject lightly either.
The question of whether they can adapt to cold climates, That answer should be simple. They have some of the European genes don't they? Who's trying to fool who?
:)doak
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If you take a colony of Italian and one of Corneal en and cross these, you have a hybrid, you also have a more aggressive bee than either of the other two. Does this answer your question?
Also the AHB came from the pure African breed "which is aggressive to begin with" crossed with the European bee, which in any one of the breed's in pure form is docile.
The African aggressiveness genes is dominate over the European gentleness genes.
This should not be that hard to under stand. If we want to rear queens we are surly going to pick our most gentle colony to rear a queen from, if it is also a productive colony.
If you have an aggressive colony in your bee yard that re queening doesn't fix, then you will want to move that colony far far away from your breeding grounds, If you are going to rear gentle strands.
I am also against calling these AHB's (KILLER) bees.
Any one who is allergic to bee stings can die from only one sting from a gentle strand.
We, the beekeepers should let people know some of these things. We are not like the Media, we are not in it for ratings.
Yes, we should not take the subject lightly either.
The question of whether they can adapt to cold climates, That answer should be simple. They have some of the European genes don't they? Who's trying to fool who?
:)doak
I Understand that crossing two strains causes the offspring to be more aggressive. What I want to know is why. Is there more than one combination of genes that make the bees aggressive. Does anyone have a theory on what causes the aggression. If you crossed tow gentle breeds of dog you would not expect a aggressive dog would you? I am interested in the reason behind the trait and what brings it out in hybrids. Knowing something is one thing and understanding it is another.
I have read that the ahb seems to have calmed down some in south america and are more manageable then before. Is it from breeding for less aggressive behavior or that they are more pure African honeybees now and the hybrid increased aggression has decreased because of being less hybrid. I have no idea what the facts are and am really interested in the science science behind it.
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Very good point. I may be wrong, if we have got that far fully understanding the gene bank I haven't found anything on it. Although I have searched for it.
May be if we could get those "jerks" to quit using so many pesticides we could rear enough European bees and release them into the wild to over come the AHB increase. :)doak
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bee-nuts,
I've read numerous reports and various information for over a decade now, I'm certainly not on expert on the matter but I am under impression that it helps over time to breed with gentle strains, re-queen our hives etc.
May I suggest to ask your question(s) here
http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/79431_828.htm (http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/79431_828.htm)
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http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/ahb.htm (http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/ahb.htm)
http://entoplp.okstate.edu/ahb/ (http://entoplp.okstate.edu/ahb/)
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bee-nuts,
I've read numerous reports and various information for over a decade now, I'm certainly not on expert on the matter but I am under impression that it helps over time to breed with gentle strains, re-queen our hives etc.
May I suggest to ask your question(s) here
http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/79431_828.htm (http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/79431_828.htm)
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http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/ahb.htm (http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/ahb.htm)
http://entoplp.okstate.edu/ahb/ (http://entoplp.okstate.edu/ahb/)
Thank you so much for the links. I ust started reading them and want to thank you before I forget.
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I saw the show and it appears like others said any cross beedof bees can be hot and tre you would get mad if someone comes to your home an beat on it.
I have had bees mean as a snake but i still worked them i awe on a bee how a lady in south africa raises them and she evensaid they are no different from any other bee you just have to work them a little different and they make honey so what is th big deal hey aremore defensive and who would not be if someone was trying to steal your food and hurt your children and the queen of your home i think th AHB will loose that man streak as they breed wth our bees in time.
THOMAS
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i think the main thing is that they don't just sting and run you off the hive. they keep after you. they also take down animals. i have cats, dogs, and my horses near my hives. don't think i'd want to do that with AHB. even doing cutouts, i have only taken a few stings. i have never had them poor out of a hive and cover me that way those in the film did.
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I don't know if this is true or not but I was told that if you get some "pure" Russian bees they are aggressive the first year until about the 2nd. or 3rd. year. Or is it 2nd. or 3rd. generation? BTW...I don't keep Russians.
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i had them when i started. i didn't find them to be more aggressive, but they were more active. it was not uncommon to be pinged by them often, but not stung. when the hive was opened, more of them came out. i don't know that i ever got stung by them.
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I was hoping that these AHB could get here a little sooner. I was hoping my bee removal business would pick up before next Christmass. :-D :evil:
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My husband was the one that was attacked in Las Vegas. I use the term "attacked" because that is exactly what it was. I am not sure about the
hype that some of the posters accuse the show of, but I can assure you of one thing......they did not exaggerate what happened to my husband at all.
Those bees were Africanized, and were out to kill. The Fire Department told me that when they came upon the scene, my husband was covered in bees; they estimated it to be about 1 1/2 to 2 inches of a what they called a "coat" of bees. They told me that they couldn't tell what race he was because there was absolutely no skin showing, and watching it unfold was like watching something from a horror movie.
Here is a quote from the Fire Captain when my husband's story was aired on Inside Edition.
"You could not see Mr. Moser, he was completely covered in bees," says Captain Galen Upton of the Clark County Fire Department."
No hype.......it really did happen just as they said.
Stay safe
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My husband was the one that was attacked in Las Vegas. I use the term "attacked" because that is exactly what it was. I am not sure about the
hype that some of the posters accuse the show of, but I can assure you of one thing......they did not exaggerate what happened to my husband at all.
Those bees were Africanized, and were out to kill. The Fire Department told me that when they came upon the scene, my husband was covered in bees; they estimated it to be about 1 1/2 to 2 inches of a what they called a "coat" of bees. They told me that they couldn't tell what race he was because there was absolutely no skin showing, and watching it unfold was like watching something from a horror movie.
Here is a quote from the Fire Captain when my husband's story was aired on Inside Edition.
"You could not see Mr. Moser, he was completely covered in bees," says Captain Galen Upton of the Clark County Fire Department."
No hype.......it really did happen just as they said.
Stay safe
I do not doubt the severity of the attacks from the AHB's. I hope I never see anything the likes of what you and your husband went through. I believe the only way to reverse what has happened is with science and that requires funding. This county wastes billions of dollars on garbage but do not spend money to solve real problems like this. Instead they will waste a billion dollars on a satellite to see if there is water on a moon in another galaxy or something else that is of no use to mankind. I hope your husband has had a full physical and mental recovery. Im sure it must have been horrible.
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there has to be a little hype or people wouldn't watch the show :-D
i only watched 1/2. i think there were some inaccuracies about bees in general, but the ferocity of AHBs is pretty well documented, and demonstrated in the show.
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I suffered my way through the entire show. :'( What really upset me is how hard we work as beekeepers to educate the public about the importance of honeybees and that they are not all 'Killers'. The only winners in this program are the exterminators. Now when the uneducated who watch that show and believe every bee is a killer will call an exterminator to have them destroyed.
Using an exterminator with limited knowledge as the main specialists on the subject did us no favors. His exaggerations will reinforce the fears of the general public for a long time.
As far as them ignoring the real scientists like Marla Spivak and insisting that because the bees endured 23 degrees for three hours was ridiculous! The whole program was not only a fraud but an injustice to beekeepers everywhere.
At one of our state meetings, and I am sorry to tell you I can not remember which Dr it was who speculated this, it was his idea that because AHB use a wider spacing between combs as they need in hotter climates, that they would not do as well in the colder climates.
I have had hot Europeans come out like a volcano from the inner cover hole, it gets pretty exciting for a while, but when an africanized hive unloads from the entrance when you drive up to the yard it gets pretty annoying trying to get them off you a half mile away. Never mind getting back to the truck in the yard.....
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Exterminators will be prosecuted if they do honey bees in Georgia. If they get caught. :)doak
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I just think that the media is all about one agenda. i agree that AHB can be terrible, but what they do with a show like that is put complete fear into peoples minds about all honey bees. If you were to see a thousand bees out in an alfalfa field foraging and half were AHB and half were not, you'd never know the difference between the two.
Our state bee inspector was at our club meeting last night and she was saying that for some reason the AHB are much more agressive at sea level, and the higher in elevation that they are, the less agressive they become. Case-in-point, the bees that were in Northern Arizona at an elevation of what 6000 ft+... as someone mentioned earlier, they didn't even become remotely upset till all the timbers were removed and the hive mostly exposed. They took those bees to the lab and measured them and sure enough they were AHB. Is it not possible that all AHB are not the same and that the agressive behavior could be lessened under certain, unknown circumstances? And the hive that was in that false rock wall didn't even get that mad till they started beating it apart. There are still traits that AHB possess that would be very desirable for beekeepers to have in their colonies if those specific genes could only be isolated.
I just don't think that the world is going to come to and end due to AHB, but they sure want you to feel that way after watching the show. I am in no way taking anything away from those who have been attacked, because I'm sure it was the most terrifying thing imaginable. But if you angry off a hive of europeans bad enough and were unprotected I think that could be equally as scary.
Don't live life in fear of the AHB, just be cautious if you see bees around and get help from a professional if you run across any hive around people. Don't take it upon yourself to see how mad they get and then find yourself in trouble.
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I am wondering when will my neighbors come to ask me if my bees are "KILLER BEEES" before they call the town ordinance because of this program!
Heck I can't even sell my own house in New Jersey because we have three hundred houses on foreclosure in my town right now so we can move to a bee friendly place.. or a place with a few acres away from the endless suburbs that surounds us!
Hype or no hype... Science or no science.. This Africanized bee is destined to win!
Welcome to our forum Lasvegas...After I read your first post I felt as if you have enmity with these gentle people just because they keep bees and do not believe hype. Please note the beekeepers on this board are also victims or will be when these bees mutate and come Northward.
-Rodni
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Hopefully this link works becuase the last pdf link I posted did not work.
http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/ent201/content/killerbee_lec.pdf (http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/ent201/content/killerbee_lec.pdf)
Look at the africans original range in Africa. What stopes them from spreading like wild fire there? What stops them from spreading into the middle east? If they can get access through a port like in flordia they would be there. I dont think they got to Flordia by port. I think they got there by beekeeper.
Anyway, I just find it strange that they have such a small area in africa compared to how they just spread like wild fire throught south america and to where they are today. It screwed up. I cant wonder if it is not because of migratory beekeeping. I dont know but it just seams odd.
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We are near nature here in Finland but now the new generation has born in the city and the media pluffs them with "killer" animals, - modern fairy tales.
We have here
killer snails - eate other snails
killer crowns - try to protect their kids
killer rabbits - kill trees
killer sea gulls - makes attack to protect kids
killer goos - they make so much poo on lawn that you kill yourself ...
Killer canadian goose -
Killer pike - hit jaws onto swimmer ...
Here it is: signs of killer pike. The victim 12 y old boy
(http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/juttutappajahaukiJOB_uu.jpg)
Pike and killer (hungry) bird
(http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-02/pike-swallowed-by-cormorant.jpg)
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After reading some of the original reports by the team in South America and their research of the movement and progression of ahb, I read that as ahb move into lower temp regions, they have two options, die off as they do not store or 'winter' as ehb do or that if they survive the time to adapt, the ehb genetics in them take over and they behave according to those ehb genetics and not according to ahb anymore.
Beyond those studies, I haven't found many others that continue reporting on such adaptation. Based on those early studies, it would indicate that as the ahb move into northern, cooler climates, the ehb genetics will dominate or they will die.
Has anyone seen more recent reporting from that research?
Big Bear
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Hi Rodney,
Thanks for the welcome. I don't have any ill feelings towards beekeepers, or even towards bees for that matter. Having lived in Ca. for most of my life, I realize how absolutely essential bees are and how devastating it would be if there numbers continue to drop.
Actually, I still like bees, I just don't ignore them like I did in the past. If I see a number of them in my yard, I now investigate to see where they are coming to make sure that I don't have a hive on my property. The days of being unconcerned about their presence are over- at least for my family.
I just wanted to inform the forum members, that for my husband's story at least, Monsterquest's portrayal was very accurate. I can't speak for the rest of the show, but his part was true.
We didn't feel the purpose of the show was to frighten people into demanding that all bees be eradicated. As we all know, the Africanized bees are here to stay.
I do believe however that the show did serve a public purpose.
It is important for us to ask our county officials what they would do if a person were attacked. Are their local first responders ready? Do they have some sort of standard operating procedure in place? I know that here in Nevada, we weren't ready for it. The hospital was initially planning to send my husband home. Their initial prognosis was, because he didn't die, he must not be allergic, so he's good to go. Never mind the fact that he had just been injected with what was equivalent to poison. I pressed for them to admit him for observation.
To the hospital's astonishment, within hours of his being stung, his organs started to shut down one by one, and he had to be intubated. He was flown to Arizona via Life Flight because they at least had a team of toxicologists. (The whole state of Nevada doesn't even have one!)
The purpose for my husband agreeing to do the show was not to make people hate bees, but rather to warn people that they need to aware and for example, not let their child play in the yard if there are many bees present......and of course to make sure that the first responders have a plan.
I was told by several bee experts (and by experts, I don't mean exterminators:) that almost all of the bees in Nevada are now Africanized. I can't say if they are correct or not, but I know for a fact that the ones that attacked my husband were Africanized, and if they were truthful, the bees that Monsterquest sent from here for identification were classified as Africanized as well. Those were the facts, not hype, and the thought is alarming.
My purpose in my original post was not to blame but rather to inform the readers of how truly ferocious these bees were. My husband is extremely lucky to be alive. Times have changed, and these bees are different. To not believe those facts or to chalk it all up to hype, is irresponsible and quite possibly dangerous. Nobody is saying to not keep bees. Actually, I am thankful for beekeepers.
Just please use extra precaution, because no matter how long you have been keeping bees, until you have lived through or been witness to an actual massive attack, you can't really understand how dangerous they have the potential to be.
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the individual stories of the attacks were no doubt very accurate. i have great sympathy for anyone who has had that experience, and for their families. i got a small taste of it when i was chased down by a nest of angry yellowjackets last year. there is nowhere to run and they won't quit.
as beekeepers i think we watched this with an eye for accuracy of info. since the part i watched followed an exterminator rather than a beekeeper, there was info that i took issue with. he and i would approach the bees in a totally different way. to him, killer bee or not, he was going to get paid.
i didn't finish the show for the same reason i didn't watch JAG, but love NCIS. it wrecks the show it you know the details are off......
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Thank you for writing back Lassvegas. The point that you made regarding state/hospital and authority's response to the AHB are very valid indeed. I strongly agree with what you said. Furthermore, I am very happy that your husband made it out and survived such an attack (Thank G*d).
We all know that the AHB behavior is an enigma...! We also know that it is coming up north and may adapt.
However, I disliked the program because in my humble opinion many of our people are isolated and disconnected from their food sources. They want meat.. they buy it in nice packages, they want fruits same things...! I grew up on a farm, so when we wanted meat my uncle butchered a goat and I was there to help him dress it. My issue is this:
I live in the endless suburbs of Northern New Jersey where many people do not understand animals and many including my neighbors seems very prejudiced toward anything wild. Thus, having people watch such (and with all do respect) hyped programs often increase the phobia and hysteria against anything that resembles a bee! My point is this, as these bees migrate Northward it will change the nature of beekeeping in America unless our researchers figure a way!!! Eitherway, I feel victimized just because some network needs some rating.
-With Kind Regards
-Rodni (with an I) ;)
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The attack Lasvegas' husband endured not withstanding I watched the show and found it incredibly hyped up with all types of basic bee inaccuracies. If they blew something as simple as calling a hive a swarm what else didn't they do their homework on? Giant Killer Bees? Seriously, what makes them giant? Nothing, it's a "Monster Quest" ratings grabber, facts are there to distort.
We do not have any known pure AHB bees up here but I am asked about them all the time. I do believe they are serious. I watched the show thinking about what someone who's never kept bees before would think. It would have scared the bejesus out of me. I grew up in Central TX and remember (mid 70's)the hyped stories of Killer Bees as they headed our way. "In Search of" could make a paper cut seem like the end of the world.
How many people are killed (again no offence to Lasvegas) by African Honeybee attacks? Less than a dozen a year? Peanut allergies are more serious. Save the drama for things that are truly killers, cancer, carwrecks, substance abuse, etc. I'm not saying don't talk about AHB's, they are to be respected and should be a point of concern, but do so without the hype. It perpetuates ignorance and creates stereotypes that help no one.
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With all due respect to us beekeepers, I find that most of the stories about colony collapse disorder and the disappearing of the honeybees to be hyped as well as inaccurate. And so is 99% of "news" nowadays.
Nobody is going to watch a milquetoast program about cranky bees that hurt a few people a year. Or read a story about how a small percentage of hives is dying each year (and being replaced).
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Hi lasvegas,
Your husband has my deepest sympathy and I am glad he survived what must have been a horrendous ordeal. I did not see the show, so I can't comment on it. But I have been attacked by my own aggressive part-AHB bees and ended up at the doctor for a steroid shot and probably should have gone to the emergency room except I was too stubborn. I only had a tiny fraction of the stings there were described for your husband and it made me very sick (I am not allergic). I took steady doses of Benedryl until I made sure my breathing wasn't going to be affected. I thought I was ok until I took a warm shower and I broke out in a rash/hives all over my body - not just where I had been stung. I killed the queen which supplies 100% of the genetics of the offspring and installed a new queen from a non-AHB area of the country and within 4 weeks the hive was normal again. Mine were European honeybees with AHB genetics and what made them different was they would not give up even at great distances from the hive. The intensity of their aggressiveness compared to my other gentle hive 3 feet away was amazing. Just sending a few puffs of smoke at the entrance would turn their buzz into a roar and it was like turning a volume-control dial - it ramped up.
Of course it isn't the managed hives that are a problem because a beekeeper would be aware of the issues and be able to address them like I did. The problem is the wild hives that get accidentally disturbed and the individual does not have protective clothing on.