Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: artic on March 27, 2005, 02:11:56 am
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I’m new too beekeeping (and even newer to this forum) and I have nearly finished building my first hive (mainly from plans at beesource (http://www.beesource.com/plans/index.htm)), that follows the standard commercial dimensions for a hive. My question is, what is the reasoning behind these dimensions not matching standard lubber dimensions?
I find that I need to rip and scrap a decent amount of wood to build a standard hive. Originally my theory was that the plans where simply converted from metric measurements that may match metrically plained wood, but that does not seem to be the case.
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I'm not real sure but my theory is when the guy designed them many years ago, perhaps the wood was cut differently. Langstroth had bee space in mind as he was fasioning the thing together. Everyone copied his design through out the years until the time the hive bodies started being mass produced.
Ain't it funny how when one packages any other product, it had better wiegh or contain the exact amount advertized. With wood you get "ripped off".
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And I thought that it was just me, as a woman, being picky to think that a 2"x4" should actually be THAT - not 1 1/2"x3 1/2".
Beth
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being picky to think that a 2"x4" should actually be THAT - not 1 1/2"x3 1/2".
And that is the crux of the problem. A 2 by 4 used to be 2" by 4". Then someone decided they wanted to plane it down smooth (that was rough cut) so they planed it down to 1 3/4" by 3 3/4". Then some marketing person decided if you could plane it to that, why not cheat it down a bit in size and then plane it to something even smaller. I was a carpenter for many years and I've seen "dimension" lumber that varied much over the years. The older it is, the thicker it actually is. There was a time that a 1 by 10 was 9 5/8". But it's not anymore. A lot of the commercial companies in recent years have shrunk their deeps down to 9 1/2" and a few are even 9 3/8". If you intend to make all your own hives, you can just use an full width board for your box and make your frames so that the beespace is right (basically the frame should be 3/8" less than the box in depth) and it will work. But if you sold it, it's a nonstandard size and that will make it not worth as much.
It actually works out well for me often, since I do all mediums I don't have to waste as much ripping it and when I want a bottom attached (for swarm catching boxes or nucs or long hives) I don't rip it at all and I have the correct space at the bottom for standard medium frames.
When I was using deeps and I made any of my own equipment, I used the ripped off pieces for cleats for handles, and for cleats for migratory lids and for making screened bottom boards. They didn't go to waste, but it's still a waste to have to by a one by twelve at a higher cost per board foot than a one by ten.
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I was just cutting boards today. All 1x10. They actually measure 1x9 3/16. And I am building frames and stuff to match, keeping the bee space in mind. Then I noticed something different between a couple of the boards. One was exactly nine inches wide.
I hope this isn't a sign that they are about to reduce it some more. Just as I'm getting everything set up for the width of the board now.
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I’ve thought about making my own size of hive by simply using the dimensions of pre-existing wood. Though I figured it best to stick with the ‘official’ dimensions while starting out, mainly so I could still buy parts if I decide I needed them without having to worry about size incongruities. Most importantly I wanted to be able to buy fames, as making 40 or so of them seemed a bit time consuming to a wood working novice such as myself.
As for the L. L. Langstroth theory, I was under the (possibly false) impression that Langstroth simply discovered the bee space that is now incorporated in the hives types of his namesake, but he did not actually invent the ‘modern’ Langstroth hive. Though the point I guess would be valid in the same sense for the original builder making the standard, which we now follow. Though it still seems odd to pick such fractions of a measurement, I would imagine most competent woodworkers would pick a round number of any items that they would produce with interchangeable parts. Possibly the trick would be to figure out the original scheme of measurements used to make the most sense of our current standard hive sizes.
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Have you tried figuring out how to make a hive with out using fractions? I have tried to get it figured out. When you throw in a bee space of 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch it is hard to come up with a rounded out number of inches. Either the boxes have to be some fraction of an inch, or the frames will have to be.
Here is a thought. Get the 1x10 and cut them to fit the leangth and width "standard" measurements for the hive deep. Then order your frames and cut what is needed off the side bars at the bottoms. Put the notch back into them and there you have it.
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For many years there was neither a standard depth nor a standard width. Langstroth favored the ten frame hives we have now while Dadant favored deeper frames and wider boxes. Lanstroth thought one deep ten frame box was large enough for a brood chamber. We have pretty well decided he was wrong but we still went with his dimensions. Dadant thought one 12 frame box 11 5/8" deep was the right size for a brood chamber. Judging by the almost universal use of double deeps it appears he was right, but you can't even find a US manufacturer who makes either the boxes or the frames anymore.
Sort of like the old Beta vs VHS video tape argument. In the end it doesn't seem to matter who's right about what is better. The standards take on a life of their own.
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I was wondering too about the hive dimensions and standard wood dimensions when I came across this old post. So if you use a standard 1x10 which is actually 3/4" x 9 1/4" with a standard frame 9 1/8" you have a 1/8" gap instead of the desired 3/8" bee space. Just curious here, what havoc will this unleash. 1/8" is small enough for the bees to join with propolis and create a problem? They can still cross horizontally above the lower part of the frame. They seem to remove the lower bit anyway so what if you were to poke a few holes at the bottom of any new foundation? The only thing I can think of is that when returning a frame you might crush a few more bees? But still there is 1/8" so maybe not? Any thoughts.
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>I was wondering too about the hive dimensions and standard wood dimensions when I came across this old post. So if you use a standard 1x10 which is actually 3/4" x 9 1/4" with a standard frame 9 1/8" you have a 1/8" gap instead of the desired 3/8" bee space. Just curious here, what havoc will this unleash. 1/8" is small enough for the bees to join with propolis and create a problem?
If you don't mind ripping off the bottom bars everytime you pull a frame it's no problem at all. :)
> They can still cross horizontally above the lower part of the frame. They seem to remove the lower bit anyway so what if you were to poke a few holes at the bottom of any new foundation? The only thing I can think of is that when returning a frame you might crush a few more bees? But still there is 1/8" so maybe not?
You will crush a lot of bees in 1/8". You need at least 3/16" to not smash them and 1/4" for them to pass through it easily.
Go for all mediums. Youll only have to cut about 3/4" or less off of a one by eight.
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Ain't it funny how when one packages any other product, it had better wiegh or contain the exact amount advertized. With wood you get "ripped off".
I've seen pint and quart jars advertised and labeled as holding 1 1/2 and 3 lbs. of honey respectively. Thing is, when I've weighed the net weight of honey in the jars, they come out to 1.375 and 2.75 lbs. Truth in labeling? Can't fit enough up the neck of the jar to make the weight. :(
-- Kris
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Thanks Michael. It's back to ripping 1x12 for me. It's too bad. It seems a waste of wood. Someone needs to make a forest friendly frame at 9" or 8 3/4". Less wood, less cutting. But I like standardization too, oh the dilemma
Cheers,
Patrick
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It will take a lot less wood to take a one by ten and cut a 3/8" strip and add that to the bottom of it. Glue it with exterior carpenter glue and nail it and it will last as long as the box.
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I get a 3/8" strip when I cut a 1X8 for a super. I had been using those strips as upper entrance shims between boxes, but never thought to just glue them to the bottom of a 1X10 cut deep . . .
Of course, I've also taken the strips cut from 1X12s and made what I call my "low profile" screened bottom boards. :)
-- Kris
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I have a diagram that shows a medium super at 6 5/8" deep. A 1x8 is 3/4x7 1/4.
Would it really hurt to leave the extra 5/8" on the board ? Would the bees cross the extra gap?
wayne
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>Would it really hurt to leave the extra 5/8" on the board ?
Yes.
> Would the bees cross the extra gap?
Yes.
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I have a diagram that shows a medium super at 6 5/8" deep. A 1x8 is 3/4x7 1/4.
Would it really hurt to leave the extra 5/8" on the board ? Would the bees cross the extra gap?
wayne
You would need to adjust the bottom of your frames the 5/8th. Other wise the bees will fill the gap with comb, sticking the bottom of the frame to what ever is below it...... Or somewthing even worse perhaps
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I’ve thought about making my own size of hive by simply using the dimensions of pre-existing wood. .
Yes, world is full of standard dimensions. Mr. Langtroth is not main quilty for that.
If you make your own dimensions you just get extra difficulties.
If you stop your beepeekeeping and try to sell hives, "own dimensions" will not be recommendation. And if you buy hive parts they not fit together.
You may keep bees even in hollow tree or wooden empty box but what then?
.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 Post subject: Re: sizes
>You would need to adjust the bottom of your frames the 5/8th. Other wise the bees will fill the gap with comb, sticking the bottom of the frame to what ever is below it...... Or somewthing even worse perhaps<
Ahhhh. So the bees need a gap that they can cross without feeling it is big enough to use for comb.
Roughly what are the limits of space needed between a frame and the one below, and why isn't this as important in the bottom brood box between the frames and the bottom board?
wayne
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Langstroth calculated the bee space as between 1/4 to 3/8 inches. Less and they have a tendency to fill the space with propolis, more and they will build burr comb. I find that 1/4 inch is the optimum bee space.
The bees don't usually block the bottom board because of the traffic volume. They have, however, been known to plug up or block off portions of the bottom board.