Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Acebird on December 08, 2010, 04:01:56 pm

Title: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 08, 2010, 04:01:56 pm
If toxins are absorbed into the wax foundation is it a good idea to reuse the wax for foundations?  Does melting it down purify the wax?
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 08, 2010, 04:14:09 pm
Are you using your own tainted wax?

If from the brood comb, I would not.
But there is far less contaminates in honey cappings.

There was some glances at this when CCD first hit. And there was some really nasty comb samples tested.

And while the chemicals could be found in foundation, there seems to not be enough to harm the bees. Although this "tainted foundation" seems to a good sell for certain types of beekeeping. Reality is, most foundation is made with wax cappings, and whatever chemicals there are in foundation, a good bit is en-capsulized.

Here are some thoughts and observations I have done on the matter.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/combinformation.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/combinformation.html)

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 08, 2010, 07:04:09 pm
Yep;
There are toxin in your wax, no heating don't get rid of it.

A few years back some researchers found toxin in some wild hives they found deep in the Brazilion Jungle, far from mankind's work.

Many things in nature produce toxins/poisons.

Best bet don't worry about it, too many things in life, more important too worry about !

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: woodchopper on December 08, 2010, 09:20:21 pm
Yep;
There are toxin in your wax, no heating don't get rid of it.

a few years back some researchers found toxin in some wild hives they found deep in the Brazilion Jungle, far from mankind's work.

Many things in nature produce toxins/poisons.

Best bet don't worry about it, too many things in life, more important too worry about !

Bee-Bop
Very interesting....thanks for posting this.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Michael Bush on December 08, 2010, 10:29:24 pm
>If toxins are absorbed into the wax foundation is it a good idea to reuse the wax for foundations?

Are you putting toxins in the hive?  If not, then it's probably not enough to worry about.

>  Does melting it down purify the wax?

If we are talking about Checkmite or Apistan, then it takes ultraviolet light to break it down.  heat will not do it.

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 09, 2010, 05:44:30 am
If we are talking about Checkmite or Apistan, then it takes ultraviolet light to break it down.  heat will not do it.

Interesting !

How much light , for how long ?

Is there any information about how this happens and why , how much of Check mite or Apistan is left .

Is it possible to "purify wax" from these chemicals ?

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: kdm on December 09, 2010, 05:50:20 am
Will checkmite or apistan deminish with age.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 09, 2010, 08:31:56 am
...there was some really nasty comb samples tested.
And while the chemicals could be found in foundation, there seems to not be enough to harm the bees.

mmmm, fluvalinate and coumaphos _were_ found in all 5 samples of foundation tested (all 5 from different sources).  the opinion of the researcher (maryann frazier) was that it was enough to harm the bees ("significant levels").  if you are planning to use fluvalinate and coumaphos in your operation it probably doesn't matter, but i would never sell (or eat) comb honey made with foundation.

my understanding is that (surprisingly) fluvalinate and coumaphos are also found in natural comb of bees that have never been treated (in smaller concentrations), but i haven't seen the actual data.

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee Happy on December 09, 2010, 09:05:51 am

If we are talking about Checkmite or Apistan, then it takes ultraviolet light to break it down.  heat will not do it.



(sunlight)  - it will also break down a plastic container if you set the wax out in it.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 09, 2010, 09:16:12 am
as of 2008, the team at penn state were working with UV light underwater to decontaminate wax of pesticides.  the account i heard was that they had some success, but that it wasn't straightforward, and we have not heard anything since.

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: T Beek on December 09, 2010, 10:37:20 am
Most research and opinion believe its best not to reintroduce old used wax into your hives, but what is foundation if not old used wax?.  There have been numorous studies showing some extreme toxin levels in purchased foundation.

I no longer use foundation (three years) and the only old wax I'll introduce, besides moving some drawn frames around as needed, is when scenting new wood or rubbing on the wedge bars to convince/persuade bees to build/stay where "I' want them to, otherwize its all going to candles.  I'll keep comb for no longer than five years, but try to change it out every three
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 09, 2010, 10:42:37 am
Quote
How much light , for how long ?

mvh edward  :-P

I would like this answered...

Are the toxins only from man made sources?

Comment about plastic degrading:  Many clear plastic containers are made from Polycarbonate that has UV inhibitors (soda bottles for instance).  If you are trying to break down the toxins with sun light use glass or direct sunlight.  The fools that we are dumping our waist in the oceans only to have it deposited on the shores for the next 100-2000 years.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 09, 2010, 10:54:03 am
...There have been numorous studies showing some extreme toxin levels in purchased foundation.


What choice does a new bee keeper have with a new hive except go foundationless?  Secondly, if the drawn comb eventually gets contaminated then the bee are bringing it in.  I can't imagine a human introducing it. :'(  That would be like introducing Round up to your food source. :?  I vote we look for the source and eliminate it.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2010, 11:25:13 am
Most research and opinion believe its best not to reintroduce old used wax into your hives, but what is foundation if not old used wax?.  There have been numorous studies showing some extreme toxin levels in purchased foundation.

So lets see the studies.

I know they found chemicals in foundation. Of course chemicals have been found in almost ALL wax samples. I know I found my bees bringing in stuff from all over the countryside.

But "extreme" levels? What is that? I have seen no study to suggest that any amount of chemicals in wax foundation is harmful to bees. In fact my own testing has shown no contamination of bees after being placed on commercial foundation. I actually paid for testing because I kept hearing the same comments...that bees will be harmed in placed on commercial tainted foundation. I found no carry over tainting of bees from chemicals in wax foundation.

Yes, they found chemicals in wax foundation. I think they find chemicals in about any agricultural product these days. But to suggest "Extreme levels", what does that mean? Does it mean bees are being harmed? Is there a study to suggest this?

Most commercial foundation is made of wax cappings. The same wax cappings that covered most of the honey consumed in this country. The same honey you probably have eaten many times.

You ask what is foundation if not old wax? Foundation is not old wax. It is cappings wax, usually not more than a few weeks or months old.

I would suggest nobody use brood wax for foundation. Of course I know nobody that does this.

So lets see some of these studies.

I promote foundationless. But it's not out of unwarranted claims and fear tactics.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: T Beek on December 09, 2010, 11:41:05 am
There's alot of "dunno" replies to your queary.  I'm not that smart, but I'm still sticking w/ foundationless and stand by; "some" foundation has extreme levels of toxins.  We all can't test our wax or foundation.  How would you do that?  I live in the woods and frankly not that up to speed on the "science" of things.  My lab is outside.

Someone asked how toxins get in the wax; the bees bring it home, both natural and man-made.

thomas
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: fish_stix on December 09, 2010, 11:56:31 am
I'll have to agree with BjornBee on this one. If you're worried about chemicals in foundation you might as well stop eating and starve yourself to death. There are trace amounts of chemicals in everything that's an agricultural product, including organic labeled products. Studies have found coumaphos and fluvalinate in foundationless comb, plus numerous other ag chemicals as well. Have your honey tested; you will find trace amounts of chemicals in it, no matter how green a beekeeper you are! If all this worries you, then quit beekeeping, cuz you're gonna die from hypertension and worry long before the chemicals get you!
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 09, 2010, 01:05:57 pm
My thoughts on how to "minimize" the risk of having contaminants in honey frames.

I use a dadant frame in the brood chamber ,I think it might bee what you call a double deep ?
This is the only frames that come in direct contact with any medications used in the hive.

To minimize the chance of contamination in the honey supers i am using plastic frames that i coat with white wax cappings or wax bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.

This allows me peace of mind that i have dun what i can to prevent "minimize" contamination.

It would bee nice to know if sun light can purify wax from apistan ?

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2010, 01:09:13 pm
There's alot of "dunno" replies to your queary.  I'm not that smart, but I'm still sticking w/ foundationless and stand by; "some" foundation has extreme levels of toxins.  We all can't test our wax or foundation.  How would you do that?  I live in the woods and frankly not that up to speed on the "science" of things.  My lab is outside.

Someone asked how toxins get in the wax; the bees bring it home, both natural and man-made.

thomas

I'm not arguing with your viewpoint on chemicals in foundation. There are chemicals. The level is what is being questioned, and at what harmful effect.

For the record, I have been associated with research in one form or another over the years. And when they came out and first mentioned all the chemicals they found in foundation, I was expecting an uproar of demands. But it quickly faded. I thought maybe some researchers did not want to step on toes. Maybe they were being affected by the same money oriented research that some have suggested over the years. You know....slant your outcomes based on who is putting money in your pockets type thing.

That is why I did my own testing. No parts per billion of any BEEKEEPER applied chemical could be found from bees on commercial foundation.

What I did find, and a much bigger problem for me in one of my bee yards, was the massive amounts of chemicals my bees were bringing in from the cattle farm next door. The chemicals they were dipping their cattle in several times a year for fleas, ticks, etc., had saturated the soil over the 30-40 years they have been in operation.

So yes, chemicals are everywhere. I don't think that the levels in foundation make a difference. I think much of it is encapsulated. What your bees are dragging in is a much bigger concern. And to date, I have seen no report or study that has shown wax foundation to be detrimental to bees. That's not to say it was fully looked at. It just says that to this date, much of the comments may be based on urban legend, self promotion of some particular way of keeping bees, etc. Some websites and companies are out there making it sound as if they have definitive proof of bees being harmed on wax foundation....and they do not.

Yes, comb rotation and not putting the chemicals in the hives is the key.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2010, 01:14:03 pm
bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.


Means nothing. Many beekeeper could say the same thing. Well maybe the pesticide free part. Not sure about being certified varroa free.

Unless he had his wax tested, he does not know what is in it. And neither do you.

Read my last post. I have never used apistan except 6 hives in 2001. And yet when you actually test, you may be really be surprised. His wax may not have fluvilanate, but I bet it has a bunch of other things.

I also would like to know what certified "varroa free" is? Who certifies this? I know your in Sweeden. But you have the same forage patterns for bees, chemicals are a concern, and mites are a problem. Do you actually verify "Mite Free" hives? And can you explain this "certified pesticide free" process?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Scadsobees on December 09, 2010, 02:12:56 pm
Hey..did you know that ONE cigarette (http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/12/09/surgeon-general-cigarette-puff-kill/?test=latestnews) can kill you??

Boy...and we're worried about a few ppb in foundation?? :-D

Thankfully bee-smoker smoke is safe! :roll:
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 09, 2010, 02:15:33 pm
A short note;
Chemicals have been in our water,food supply chain for years & years, since man has been on earth.
It has only been in recent years that science has the ability to find traces of chemicals in
the millions and billion's of a part.

If you get a chance take a tour of a laboratory, simply unbelievable what they can see.

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Kathyp on December 09, 2010, 02:26:07 pm
Quote
honey supers i am using plastic frames that i coat with white wax cappings or wax bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.

plastic is a petroleum product.  many types of plastic give off toxins when they are heated. (sun on a hive?) 

if one cig can kill, what about living in a city, a valley, etc?  all that toxic air that you city folks breath.  it's a wonder you are not all dead!!
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 09, 2010, 03:43:07 pm
Quote
Thankfully bee-smoker smoke is safe!

He, he, and how do you know that? ;)

You can't claim the honey is pesticide free either unless it is tested for every pesticide known to man.  The only thing you can do is give your bees a large enough garden area in close proximity to the hive where you don't use chemicals.  I would be very interested in seeing some data on how much area per hive is required to encourage the bees not to travel further then your controlled area.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 09, 2010, 03:55:34 pm

To minimize the chance of contamination in the honey supers i am using plastic frames that i coat with white wax cappings or wax bought from a trustable colleague that is certified varoa and pesticide free.


I was going to ask  " who/what was necessary to get this type of certification ? " ;

Evidently you must live in Denmark, so I won't ask.

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 09, 2010, 04:32:12 pm
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626 (http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626)

I don't know how I got to this site but for those that like research...
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 09, 2010, 07:05:53 pm
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626 (http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=626)

I don't know how I got to this site but for those that like research...

Here is a lot more college research ;

http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/Issues/bees.htm (http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/Issues/bees.htm)

Getting technical now !

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2010, 07:12:49 pm
Oh come on guys.

Who has time to read through a page list of various links.

How about just directing us to the one that shows commercial foundation is killing or harming bees.

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Cascadebee on December 09, 2010, 08:28:27 pm
Toxin levels don't have to be extreme or acute to have negative effects on animals. Sublethal effects alter foraging behaviors, increase susceptibility to disease, etc, etc. Plenty of studies on that Bjorn. Wax residues are a serious problem when you consider overall hive health and cumulative exposure. Therefore a residue problem could manifest in unexpected ways like  persistent nosema or poor honey production.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2010, 08:38:52 pm
Toxin levels don't have to be extreme or acute to have negative effects on animals. Sublethal effects alter foraging behaviors, increase susceptibility to disease, etc, etc. Plenty of studies on that Bjorn. Wax residues are a serious problem when you consider overall hive health and cumulative exposure. Therefore a residue problem could manifest in unexpected ways like  persistent nosema or poor honey production.

That may be true. But just because it does not take much to impact one thing or another, can not be applied across the board, claiming death and harm to every item out there that happens to be containing some level of chemicals. If that is the bar, everything in our society would be labeled as a killer. And we all know this not to be true.

We went from discussing the urban legend being repeated about "extreme level" of chemicals in foundation, (To which nobody has defined extreme) to suggesting foundation is killing or harmful to bees. And not one study has shown this. In fact, I would think if it was an issue, one of the many researchers doing CCD research would of stated so. Nobody had any basis or proof that small amounts of found encapsulated chemicals in wax foundation is harming bees. Period. And now to support this position, rationalized studies that are off topic, vague comments, and wishful thinking has taken over.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: David McLeod on December 09, 2010, 10:48:51 pm
Actually, I would be more concerned with "cross contamination" than just simple foundation made from cappings. How are the cappings melted and on what equipment. How is it processed and stored. The original source of cappings is going to be your purest wax, barring what is tracked into the hive by foragers of course. But if the beek, the processor, the assembler allows the cappings/foundation to come into contact either directly or indirectly through dirty equipment, mixing with slum gum/brood comb, failure to store wax and chemicals seperately and you have a problem.
Sanitation can go a long way so it behooves us to pay attention to what we do.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 09, 2010, 11:04:35 pm
 ;) IF YOU DRINK TO MUCH WATER YOU CAN DIE  ;)

I live in Sweden , and i am sorry to say that in my area we have varoa  :-x

My colleague lives i an area that does not have varoa "yet"

It has just past my area about seven years ago , and continues north.

Also from Finland in the north it is heading south.  :-x

The zones that do not have varoa yet have restrictions in place so you are not aloud to transport bees from a varoa area into that zone. And I don't think any one wants to bee known as the bee keeper that tainted a particular area. :evil:

The colleague in question is a certified Green bee keeper , This means that he can't use chemicals in his hives , also he has to only have eco wax in his hives , he has to feed his bees with ecological sugar (2x the normal price) , if he smokes his hives he has to use natural materials , also his hives must bee of 51% natural materials , He must document everything + 3 years trail period bee fore certification ,  and the list goes on and on and on and on... .... ... .. ........  .....

Fore this privilege he has to pay a hefty fee to bee a part of the ecological honey brand label.

The upside is that he can sell his honey as Eco friendly and ask a higher price from the consumers that want to pay more fore ecological products

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 09, 2010, 11:08:31 pm
Its almost impossible to 100% sure about anything ,

But that doesn't mean we should give up and not try to do the best for our bees and the honey we produce.  ;)


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 08:36:58 am
Its almost impossible to 100% sure about anything ,

But that doesn't mean we should give up and not try to do the best for our bees and the honey we produce.  ;)


mvh edward  :-P

I agree.

Unfortunately, we have many that will take a simply concept of trying to do things better, and back up their narrow minded approach of beekeeping, and will distort truth, common sense, and integrity, to do so.

Saying one uses foundationless systems so bees can draw untainted comb, or that bees will be healthier are half truths at best. Nobody can say what is in their bees comb unless they tested it. It could easily be assumed that chemicals in the area of any hive are a more potential risk than what minuscule amount have been found in foundation. But you will find beekeepers blowing out of proportion any suggestions of chemicals in commercial foundation to rationalize their own thoughts, to promote what they are selling, or the concept or beekeeping approach they follow. And yet, time and time again, bees have been found to contaminate their own hives locally, and not one shred of proof has been shown that foundation is harmful.

We just had an article posted about the "Red Bees of Red Hook", showing once again, they will eat, collect, and store anything they can.

Now we just added the suggestion that wax foundation may be a source for cross contamination. Of what? AFB? Some wax is bleached in making foundation. Some is heated. Not sure that does a whole bunch for disease. But not once ion the history of beekeeping as far as I know, has their been a sliver of evidence that foundation transmots AFB or any other disease. And yet, we just had someone make that suggestion and planted that seed in other beekeepers heads. I'm sure some will be adding this to their websites this morning as another justification for one thing or another to promote.

Just because the next guy's stuff was tested and something was found, does not make the finger pointer's stuff any better without testing. But boy, do we have many finger pointers.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Michael Bush on December 10, 2010, 08:42:38 am
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fagriculture.house.gov%2Ftestimony%2F110%2Fh80626%2FFrazier.doc&rct=j&q=maryann%20frazier&ei=Yh4CTY2tL4Odlgfh5Om3CQ&usg=AFQjCNGMbqZaox90JT3L9RNPflDSd-NrlQ&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fagriculture.house.gov%2Ftestimony%2F110%2Fh80626%2FFrazier.doc&rct=j&q=maryann%20frazier&ei=Yh4CTY2tL4Odlgfh5Om3CQ&usg=AFQjCNGMbqZaox90JT3L9RNPflDSd-NrlQ&cad=rja)

Here is Maryann Frazier's testimony to congress.  Try a search on "foundation" and you'll find quite a bit about the toxins found and their toxicity to bees.  Even some numbers.  :)

And of course her talk about half way through:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4115244451959719523# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4115244451959719523#)

The toxicity of fluvalinate and coumaphos are well documented.  I'm surprised to hear such denials.

Her research was published and used to be available on the web, and probably is still there, but I don't have the link handy.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: T Beek on December 10, 2010, 09:14:28 am
Excellent info.  Thanks Michael.  HOpe this quiets some of the condesending tone.  Beeks seeking to do right by their bees don't need attacks they need info from rational minds.  I was beginning to feel overwhelmed waiting for another voice to join the discussion.

thomas
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 10, 2010, 09:23:39 am
Quote
It could easily be assumed that chemicals in the area of any hive are a more potential risk than what minuscule amount have been found in foundation.


I agree to the extent that these chemicals tend to increase in the wax over time.  To me that makes an excellent measure of how clean the bees food source is (assuming no chemicals are added).  So yes there are trace chemicals in the foundation but how fast or what rate of increase occurs in the drawn comb?  This would tell you if you have a good or bad organic food source for your honey.  All the clean practices known to man could be negated by the food source.

We got bees to propagate our gardens and the hopes that some honey could be harvested but we didn't count on it.  I can tell you it works, big time.  Much to our surprise, a local bee master tasted our honey and ADMITTED it tasted better than his.  He doesn't use foundation and we do if you are keeping track.  Chemicals have taste.  Anyone that eats organic food can attest to the difference between organically grown and not organically grown with amazing accuracy.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2010, 09:44:33 am
a few thoughts on some of the topics brought up here:

1.  absolutely there are all kinds of pollutants, ag chemicals, etc in every hive (jerrry bromenshenk claims to have never tested a pollen sample that didn't have pcbs).  the work done at penn state told us what we already knew...the highest levels of pesticides were those placed directly into the hive by the beekeeper.  in the same study, the highest levels of pesticides found in pollen were those put in the hive by the beekeeper (and transmitted to the pollen one way or another before the pollen enters the hive).

2.  if there is any interest in reducing the amount of chemicals in the hive, the first step, the "low hanging fruit" is to stop putting these things in the hive.  if one is planning not to use fluvalinate and coumaphos in their hives, then bringing them in with foundation makes no sense.

denow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:02:42 am
a few thoughts on some of the topics brought up here:

1.  in the same study, the highest levels of pesticides found in pollen were those put in the hive by the beekeeper (and transmitted to the pollen one way or another before the pollen enters the hive).

And yes, for those cases of CCD hives where the chemicals had been used over and over and a full saturation point was achieved, this is true.

That however is apple and oranges. The studies you mention were from bees on comb of hives previously treated by those very same chemicals, or on fully drawn tainted comb.

To assume that this tainting of bees can now be applied to tainted foundation is a leap for sure.

This was the basis of my own paid chemical analysis of bees on foundation and the internal level of chemicals from the bees via pollen collection.

And again....not one part per billion was found. None!

Yes, you will find chemicals in pollen from bees previously treated bees and comb via pollen testing. But they did not test clean bees placed on foundation. So how can you assume any transmition of chemicals from foundation. To make that leap you need to test for it. It never was. And that is why I did it myself. And no transfer was found.

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: T Beek on December 10, 2010, 10:06:38 am
Well said deknow.  We agree. For myself, I'll continue to promote foundationless beekkeeping and will refuse to add anything to my hives other than bees and the rare sugar/syrup feeding as needed.

thomas
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:10:12 am
Please keep in mind. I'm not out to debate or argue. I'm just telling you what I have found. The reason I paid for my own testing was because I don't trust everything I read.

I also tested commercial pollen on the market a few years back. Pollen being sold through large supply warehouses without it being divulged that it came from China. The stuff was laced with DDT and fluvilanate at levels that would make your head spin. That of course nobody wanted to touch with a ten foot poll, and was quickly brushed under the rug. Way too much money and way too many toes would be stepped on to actually look into this. But I have the original pollen, unopened samples, test reports, etc.  ;)
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:18:03 am
Excellent info.  Thanks Michael.  HOpe this quiets some of the condesending tone.  Beeks seeking to do right by their bees don't need attacks they need info from rational minds.  I was beginning to feel overwhelmed waiting for another voice to join the discussion.

thomas

Hey T,
So I don't need to see the whole video, at what point did Maryann state that foundation was tainting bees?

I noticed Mike B posted this less than 35 minutes before you make reference that this was a good to see. The video is over 90 minutes long.

Save me the time and let me know at what point she claimed this, so I (and others also) don't have to see an hour and a half long video.

I know I have seem Maryann speak many times. So most of this would be repeated stuff. I however have never heard of a research study, or heard her claim foundation was tainting bees.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:26:49 am
The toxicity of fluvalinate and coumaphos are well documented.  I'm surprised to hear such denials.


What denials are you talking about?

Nobody is suggesting that these chemicals are not harmful to bees. What is being questioned is whether foundation is tainting bees.

Show me where on the video or a study that has shown this to be true. I personally have never heard a claim or study that was done showing foundation was harmful. If there was, you would think someone could produce it. Please do.

Thank you.

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: T Beek on December 10, 2010, 10:39:44 am
Its not the first time I've seen it.  Had in a saved file from awhile ago.  Please take the time.

Why would you not take the time?  I don't believe you're not looking for an argument.  Sorry BjornBee.

thomas
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 10, 2010, 10:45:14 am
Quote
the rare sugar/syrup feeding as needed.

And the source? :?

Sugar is not grown in this country,  Corn is owned by Monsanto and soon to be beets.  Did you test the food source first?

Quote
The reason I paid for my own testing was because I don't trust everything I read.

I also tested commercial pollen on the market a few years back. Pollen being sold through large supply warehouses without it being divulged that it came from China. The stuff was laced with DDT and fluvilanate at levels that would make your head spin. That of course nobody wanted to touch with a ten foot poll, and was quickly brushed under the rug.

That is too bad.  But it is understandable.  We have the same problem in our own food source.  The secracy of what is in it.  No person or mega corporation has ever tried to keep something good a secret.  So that tells me what is behind the secrete.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 10, 2010, 10:55:12 am
Why would you not take the time?

I would like to view the movie full screen.  Do you have a link where I can download the file?  If I find the area of concern I can point out the footage counter.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2010, 10:59:03 am
you are correct...it is an assumption that fluvalinate and coumaphos present in foundation wax has any impact at all on the bees.  it is also true that several studies found afb spores present in foundation do not infect bees.

yet....

(if i am reading your post correctly) you have tested pollen from bees placed on commercial foundation?
was the foundation tested?  was the foundation contaminated?
is it a reasonable assumption that if the fluvalinate/coumaphos isn't found in trapped pollen that it isn't affecting the bees?

it would be interesting (if one knew the level of contamination of a particular batch of foundation) to test bees drawing out the foundation, brood being raised in the foundation, and cappings from honeycomb built on such foundation..

again, i don't know the extent of your tests, so i can't comment further.  if you would like to make the data from the tested chinese pollen available, i'd be happy to host it (in fact i'd like to).

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 11:41:11 am
deknow,

Ah...some sound reasoning.  ;)

I previously posted in this thread I did not test for the levels in the foundation. I assumed that all foundation was tainted, or I was lucky enough to buy the only foundation on earth void of chemicals. I do know that all previous foundation tested did have some chemicals on some level. So I found reestablishing this fact, or the levels, a waste of my limited resources.

Yes, I tested pollen collected from bees on wax foundation. No beekeeper pesticide or chemicals were found. That, as you commented, does not prove there are no effects. Just simply that not one part per billion was transferred over to the bees. At that level, I'll probably also assume that no damage is being done based on simply reasoning.

It would be interesting to find out the answers to some of your other questions. I simply do not have the staff and resources of a university. I do not know of any testing of each item prior to the actual testing.

I took what was told to be tainted wax foundation (without testing for levels as ALL foundation has chemicals), clean bees (confirmed by the lack of anything found in the testing), and then testing the transfer of chemicals after the fact. And nothing was found. Clean bees. No tainting. That is far as I got.

I did find other chemicals being brought into the hive. But no fluvalinate or coumophos.

What I have a problem is the open assumption that because foundation has been found to have chemicals, that foundation is harmful or tainting bees. And to date, we have no clear testing or proof of this. I just did not find this to be the case.

Not sure what you mean by "hosting".
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Michael Bush on December 10, 2010, 12:38:33 pm
>Save me the time and let me know at what point she claimed this

As I said:
>And of course her talk about half way through:

which might explain:
>35 minutes before you make reference


Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2010, 12:45:55 pm
...That, as you commented, does not prove there are no effects. Just simply that not one part per billion was transferred over to the bees.  At that level, I'll probably also assume that no damage is being done based on simply reasoning.
mmm, i think it means that no fluvalinate or coumaphos is transfered to the bees in such a way as to express as one part per billion in pollen.  i think your above reasoning if flawed.  in any case, equating results from pollen tests to levels in bees, effects on bees/brood, and especially without determining what was in the foundation (which is what you were testing).  it's an interesting test you did, and the data is valid and very interesting when compared with the penn state data (you seem to show that "clean bees" don't produce trapped pollen with more than 1ppb fluvalinate and coumaphos).  how did your results compare with the penn state data on agricultural pesticides?

Quote
I took what was told to be tainted wax foundation
who told you the foundation you started with was tainted with fluvalinate and coumaphos?  the penn state tests looked at very few foundation samples, certainly not enough to make an assumption that the foundation you used was tainted in the ways you assumed it to be tainted.  

this is the "foundation" of your interpretation of your results, and it doesn't hold up.  you seem to try and make it someone elses mistake (whomever "told you" your or all foundation is contaminated.....but no one who's word you would take on such a matter ever told you this).  you claim to be testing:
Quote
the transfer of chemicals after the fact.
...but you clearly did not establish if or what chemicals were present to transfer before the fact.  transfer of what?

Quote
What I have a problem is the open assumption that because foundation has been found to have chemicals, that foundation is harmful or tainting bees. And to date, we have no clear testing or proof of this.
...and we should assume that rearing brood in comb from contaminated foundation (contaminated with substances that we know have a negative effect on brood and fertility) has no negative effect?  it isn't a reasonable concern for those that do not want to use fluvalinate and coumaphos in their hives because of the known and proven negative effects that these substances can come in with foundation?

Quote
I just did not find this to be the case.
you did not test what you claim to have tested.

deknow

Quote
Not sure what you mean by "hosting".
make it available online and point people to it...either with your credits, or anonymously (if you don't want to get a bad reputation) :)  i'd point people to it if you put it up on your site as well.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Scadsobees on December 10, 2010, 02:25:18 pm

 Much to our surprise, a local bee master tasted our honey and ADMITTED it tasted better than his.  He doesn't use foundation and we do if you are keeping track.  Chemicals have taste.  Anyone that eats organic food can attest to the difference between organically grown and not organically grown with amazing accuracy.

Um...I think that my honey in the spring tastes better than my honey in the summer, and sometimes in between it tastes better or worse.  And it tastes better from the comb than it does from the bucket 3 months later.  That is a)very subjective and b) mostly due to variations in flora in the immediate vicinity and time. (I don't apply much chems, although I'm surrounded by lawns).  I've tasted awful organic food and wonderful food that has had pesticides applied to keep the bugs away.

Does anybody know the effects of heating wax and bleaching wax?  Dangerous compounds can form from those two activities that could be every bit as toxic to the bees as coumaphos and fluovinate!!



Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Hethen57 on December 10, 2010, 02:42:24 pm
I'm still waiting for all of the toxins in my wax foundation to kill the tiny Varroa mites that seem to thrive and reproduce while while being encapsulated in it  :-D
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 04:04:57 pm
 :?
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 10, 2010, 04:28:39 pm
Quote
Um...I think that my honey in the spring tastes better than my honey in the summer, and sometimes in between it tastes better or worse.  And it tastes better from the comb than it does from the bucket 3 months later.  That is a)very subjective and b) mostly due to variations in flora in the immediate vicinity and time.

This honey was harvested in late fall when we winterized so it is a result of the whole seasons collections.  Of course it is subjective, all taste tests are.  Ah yeah that's my point if you give the bees flowers that don't have harmful chemicals there is less of a chance that harmful chemicals will be in the honey they make.

Quote
I've tasted awful organic food and wonderful food that has had pesticides applied to keep the bugs away.

You think the pesticides improved the taste?  :?
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: D Coates on December 10, 2010, 04:37:40 pm
Bjornbee,?

Where'd you go?  Don't leave us hanging here...  a a what?  Did your head explode? ;)  Mine is trying as I've been reading this.  Try as you might some folks are simply convinced that there's a human/big business created boogy man behind every corner for just about anything.  

Trying to convince them otherwise is like trying to bathe a cat.  You get wet and exhausted.  The cat? well, stays a cat.

Acebird, Pesticides can improve the taste.  Ever eaten corn with worms in it?
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 10, 2010, 05:06:29 pm
Quote
Acebird, Pesticides can improve the taste.  Ever eaten corn with worms in it?

I can see where this is going.  The answer is yes.  Most sensible people will eat around them because what they leave is far Superior to anthing that doesn't have them.  You are judging taste based on looks.  The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.  Bugs are part of our world and the more we try to eliminate them the more damage we do to ourselves.  It just happens at a later date.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 05:46:45 pm
Bjornbee,?

Where'd you go?  Don't leave us hanging here...  a a what?  Did your head explode? ;)  

Made me smile...... :lol:

I listened too Maryann Frazier's complete talk again that MB posted.  :-P

I had too since nobody could pinpoint when she made a statement about foundation killing or harming bees.

Heard that about 6 times now.

Interesting, Maryann stated that every foundation sample at that time tested, had chemicals. Sorry deknow, I know you will nitpick all day since I did not test my foundation prior to testing. I openly stated such but I expect the criticism. The talk that MB posted is dated. But I have heard her state since then that every sample of foundation has been found with chemicals. You really think some company since then has been found clean, and yet we have not heard about it. That is funny. 

For the record....NOT ONE TIME in the video was there a comment about a test, or proof that bees were being contaminated from foundation. She repeated what I have been saying. There are chemicals. But nobody to date has tested to prove this.

I do like how she beats around the bush that "Beekeepers could of or might have been using illegal chems". Yeah, right. I seen it for three years as an inspector. And anybody who knows anything, knows taktic (sp?) and Mavrick was being poured on commercial hives for years.

Deknow, I think I will post those reports on my website. Maryann mentions a "sample of pollen" from China in her talk, and I'm thinking this was one of the samples I sent in and paid for. The timing is right. But I'll need to visit the farm and bring them up to the house over the weekend.

Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: D Coates on December 10, 2010, 05:56:46 pm
The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.

So road kill is safe to eat?  Come on, not all bugs are good and not all chemicals are bad.  You can't make blanket statements like that.  Ever bitten into a peach with fruit fly maggots in it?  I have, pretty gross.  How about , broccoli with aphids and caterpillars after a steaming?  Embarrassing with dinner guests.

Crap, I'm trying to bathe a cat...  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: VolunteerK9 on December 10, 2010, 05:59:36 pm
 :pop:
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 10, 2010, 06:48:32 pm
I can see where this is going.  The answer is yes.  Most sensible people will eat around them because what they leave is far Superior to anthing that doesn't have them.  You are judging taste based on looks.  The bugs tell you the food is safe.  The absence of bugs tells you it is not safe.  Bugs are part of our world and the more we try to eliminate them the more damage we do to ourselves.  It just happens at a later date.

 :lau: :lau: :lau: chuckle chuckle :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:

You hit a home run  ;)

When the bugs go in the food is good  :lol:

When they leave not so  :-X good  :-X , Kinda like some house guests


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2010, 09:02:18 pm
Interesting, Maryann stated that every foundation sample at that time tested, had chemicals.
yes.  all 5 or 6 samples had fluvalinate and coumaphos.

Quote
Sorry deknow, I know you will nitpick all day since I did not test my foundation prior to testing. I openly stated such but I expect the criticism.
errrr, nitpick?  you are claiming to have tested for pesticide transfer from foundation to bees by using foundation with unknown status wrt to contamination and measuring contamination in the pollen.  i think it's great that you are running tests...but you have to be careful about what you are measuring and what you are assuming.

Quote
But I have heard her state since then that every sample of foundation has been found with chemicals. You really think some company since then has been found clean, and yet we have not heard about it. That is funny.
yes, they had 1 sample each from 5 or 6 sources....5 or 6 samples, all sourced at the same time.  since that time, all of the suppliers have been appraised of the test results...i expect they are trying to improve things, don't you?

Quote
For the record....NOT ONE TIME in the video was there a comment about a test, or proof that bees were being contaminated from foundation. She repeated what I have been saying. There are chemicals. But nobody to date has tested to prove this.
no.  you have been saying that the levels of miticides found in commercial foundation don't affect the bees.  maryann said no such thing.

Quote
Deknow, I think I will post those reports on my website. Maryann mentions a "sample of pollen" from China in her talk, and I'm thinking this was one of the samples I sent in and paid for. The timing is right. But I'll need to visit the farm and bring them up to the house over the weekend.
i look forward to seeing this!

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Michael Bush on December 10, 2010, 09:44:51 pm
As I pointed out when I first posted it and again after that, it's about half way through the video... but IMO it seems well worth the listen to hear the whole thing.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2010, 09:57:37 pm
bjorn, i'd also be interested to hear what cattle dip residues were found in your pollen samples.

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:43:37 pm
As I pointed out when I first posted it and again after that, it's about half way through the video... but IMO it seems well worth the listen to hear the whole thing.

I'm completely lost MB.

She mentions finding chems in foundation. She makes no assumption, statement, or claims that chems in foundation are killing or harming bees.

Quit playing games.

In circumstances like this, many times a person can state the exact second the comments were made. Please post the exact timeframe on the video...or quit jerking people around. It's that simple.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 10, 2010, 10:45:03 pm
bjorn, i'd also be interested to hear what cattle dip residues were found in your pollen samples.

deknow

No problem. It is all listed.
Just give me some time to get the information and post.
Hopefully by Sunday.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2010, 01:20:38 am
>Quit playing games.

I wasn't, but I'm done with this...
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 11, 2010, 09:33:03 am
>Quit playing games.

I wasn't, but I'm done with this...


Ah....two different requests for the timeframe of what you wanted all to hear, and your only response was nothing except something about everyone should see the whole thing. Very nice. And when I suggest you are playing games by ignoring the fact that another member is requesting a simply reply, and hopefully will save others vast amounts of time looking for something that is obviously NOT in the video, you get upset.

We have a discussion on the impacts of foundation. One where everyone here has agreed that there are chemicals foundation.

You then make a post of a video that could only be assumed to include support for the backing of proof that chemicals are harming bees. But that is not what the video is about or claims. I asked two different times for clarification of what you were suggesting by posting the video, coupled with your comment that you were surprised to "hear of the denials". Denials of what?

That video is a dated talk on research in conjunction with CDD. Yes they found chemicals. Yes, it includes foundation. Most of the talk was centered (as stated in the video) around collected comb samples of commercial hives, some with CCD and some not. Maryann made reference that chemicals were found in foundation from 5 suppliers. It didn't take a study to tell me that.

But to post this video suggesting you were making a point to the discussion at hand, and then when asked about your comments or requests to what exactly you meant, you leave taking your ball with you.

I'll ask again concerning the discussion at hand....

What  comments were you referring when you stated some were in denial?

What exact comments from the video were you referring? And to what point must of been in doubt in your mind as to what others were saying? What did Maryann state that was so important or in conflict to the discussion?

I watched the entire video. And I did not hear what you were referring. Or what I thought you were referring. And I have been asking you to provide a time stamp as to the comments in question. And you provide nothing. Thanks anyway.

Sorry for you making me feel like your playing some game. But was I so unreasonable to ask repeatedly for the timeframe of the comments, while you stand back and keep suggesting that "It's in there". Yeah, right.  :roll:
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 11, 2010, 09:49:11 am
Quote
it's about half way through the video...


I think the first time you said it was about half way through her speech.  That could be anywhere.  I am new and I am not up on all the chemistry so I don't want to spend over an hour with my fingers down my throat and my eyes drooping only to miss the important part.  If it is there then please point it out.  Just read off the footage counter when you find it.

thanks.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 11, 2010, 10:16:30 am
I'm bailing out of this thread, The Three Stooges make more sense !

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 11, 2010, 10:42:24 am

So road kill is safe to eat?  Come on, not all bugs are good and not all chemicals are bad.  You can't make blanket statements like that.  Ever bitten into a peach with fruit fly maggots in it?  I have, pretty gross.  How about , broccoli with aphids and caterpillars after a steaming?  Embarrassing with dinner guests.

Crap, I'm trying to bathe a cat...  :-P


I suppose if you are into eating road kill then your chances are better if the bugs will eat it than if they won't.

Broccoli ... you betcha.  Aphids you rinse off with water.  caterpillars you pick off before you steam or after you steam.  What is the worse that could happen you mistakenly eat one?  They are full of broccoli!  In all seriousness if your parents were born around 1920 then they served you this same broccoli that they got from the big named grocery store with the possibility of bugs but no chemicals.  It wasn't a problem then it is only a problem now because the chemical companies  have effectively  brain washed our thinking that everything has to be sterile.  In the long run that is going to kill us because in a sterile environment we do not progressively build an immunity to anything.  You can play their game but I am not going to.

My parents lived longer than their parents.  My generation is already starting to see a decline in longevity.  My children’s generation will see a further decline as a result of all the poison they unknowingly ingest and living in a sterile environment that was thought to be a good idea compounded by a sedentary lifestyle.

I am sorry for being off topic but toxins in the bee hive are no different than toxins on our dinner plate.  They won’t kill everybody initially but over a long time they will take their toll.  Many people don’t realize that insects will never be eradicated by toxins where as humans could very easily be eradicated by toxins.  Oh, as long as I have gone off the deep end it is exactly the same for weeds for anyone that gardens.  Get you’re a$$ out there and mechanically remove them.  It will do you good long before the fruits and flowers come.







Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 11, 2010, 11:39:10 am
since we seem to be calling one another to the carpet for every comment:

from bjorn's first post in this thread:

Quote
And while the chemicals could be found in foundation, there seems to not be enough to harm the bees.
really?  no one but you seems to be making that claim, and your data, while interesting, shows no such thing.  can you cite one researcher, one study that shows that the amount of miticides found in foundation is not enough to harm bees (hint:  since you don't seem to know the levels or range of levels found in foundation, it would be difficult show that it isn't enough to harm bees).

Quote
whatever chemicals there are in foundation, a good bit is en-capsulized.
can you qualify what you mean by encapsulated, and more importantly, what the implications are for "encapsulated miticides" (hint: your own data doesn't address this at all given that you have no idea if there were any encapsulated miticides....please cite something publihsed and/or insightful...and let's stay away from the AFB spores, they are orders of magnitude larger than molecules of miticides, and AFB spores are not volitile).

from bjorn's link to his thoughts on this topic (on his website...given also in his first post in this thread):

Quote
This once visited topic of what was causing CCD quickly moved on to other areas of interest.
...yet, last time i spoke with Marryann (the one who originally "visited" this topic), she said it was probably time to do more foundation testing to see if things had improved.  this is hardly "moving on"....it remains a subject of interest.

Quote
If commercial wax was tainted enough to make bees sick and even die, that internal levels of chemicals would certainly be seen in such things as bee spit, which is used to help form the balls of pollen as they collect from the field.
perhaps...and perhaps not.  do you have any research, any data to support the above?

Quote
And while we could further test the comb, just in case we actually purchased what could be only suggested as the only "Clean" commercial wax on the market, that would of been very unlikely.
really?  in 2008 (when you did this test), the team at penn state had tested 5 samples of foundation from 5 different suppliers.  this is certainly enough evidence to be concerned...but certainly not enough evidence to collect the data you collected and reasonably assume that the foundation you are starting with is contaminated, or contaminated at low, average, or high levels compared with what is generally available.  this is the kind of assumption that you would blast others for making, and you seem to have built a rather large structure over this flawed foundation.

Quote
After all, we were told that any chemical enough to effect bees, would be seen internally, and would show in testing of bee spit via collected pollen. None was found.
who told you this?  where did you read this?  was there a relevant context?

Quote
We have found that any small amounts of chemicals encased in wax and used for foundation, is not contaminating brood or bees.
first, you don't know if there was any, a small amount, or large amount of miticides in the wax used in the foundation you tested.
second, do you really find it inconceivable that brood could be negatively affected by miticides in the wax (as they are raised in very close proximity and/or contact with wax, and fed by house bees that are surrounded with wax, producing wax, and presumably working with already produced wax) and, at the same time, these miticides are not present in measurable amounts in "bee spit" of pollen foragers?  if your assumptions here are accurate, then all the studies being done can be more efficient by only testing the pollen, and assuming that levels found there will accurately correlate with what is found in bees, brood, brood food, wax, etc.  ...you've just saved the bee research industry millions of dollars.....NOT

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 11, 2010, 12:29:07 pm
deknow, I have been truthfull of my own thoughts.
And you have already nitpicked items such as I did not test the foundation ahead of time.
Sorry I went on other suggestions that all foundation was tainted. And to date, it all has been.

No matter what, I'm sure you would have something to pick at.
Now, it's just going round and round at this point.

I said what I did, and what I didn't.
The rest is my own thoughts on the observations and what I have experienced.
I could care less what you think is adequate or inadequate.
I'm not out to write a book on the matter.  ;)

Going back to the beginning and dragging out points you already made, is becoming old.

That's the problem with beekeepers in the field who are trying to make a difference. Doing small tests, making observations known, and trying to pass along information, will always be seen as inadequate because some larger and more expensive approach was not taken or feasible.

I said I would post the results of my testing on what I can only assume to be tainted foundation, and too which every other sample ever tested has been shown to be...tainted.

Throw some money my way and help me out. I'll test the foundation next time.  :-D

Sorry if I don't respond to your posts from this point forward. I have a problem with "academia types" who sit and pick others who are trying to make a difference.

No offense intended. I realize there are all types.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: BjornBee on December 11, 2010, 12:48:02 pm
a recap for those following.....

MaryAnn 3 years ago found chemicals in foundation.

All samples tested to date on foundation have been tainted with chemicals.

For three years, some have been running around using this video and her statements to suggest that bees are being harmed or killed by being on commercial wax foundation. She said no such thing.

In the past three years, NOBODY has taken clean bees and placed them on tainted foundation to see what crossover tainting could be established.

I paid for my own testing, and tested what I was told was a reliable method of finding the internal level of chemical levels of bees, that being trapped pollen.

I found no beekeeper chemical residue on bees living on commercial wax foundation. (and some would suggest that I may perhaps could of bought completely clean wax.....give me a break.)

Nobody else had done a thing to establish, prove, or show whether bees are being tainted by commercial wax. But the comments have been circulating for years with absolutely NO PROOF, to promote a particular style or approach to beekeeping.

And I'm being told that what I did was not good enough.

Thanks for nothing.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: deknow on December 11, 2010, 01:31:37 pm
deknow, I have been truthfull of my own thoughts.

yes, you have been.  unfortunately, you have also been making large baseless assumptions, basing your thoughts upon them, and then presenting your conclusions as fact.

this is exactly what you have been hounding others about.  one has to assume that either contaminants in foundation have or don't have an effect on bees.  we don't have a lot of data on which to base this assumption.  on one hand, there is irrefutable evidence that these substances (miticides) negatively affect bees when comb is contaminated.  on the other hand, you have had trapped pollen analyzed, and tell us that this somehow correlates directly with contamination in all parts and functions of the hive, and ultimately shows that this kind of exposure doesn't negatively impact bees.

Quote
And you have already nitpicked items such as I did not test the foundation ahead of time.
Sorry I went on other suggestions that all foundation was tainted. And to date, it all has been.
i'm not sure why i have to point this out to you....it seems like the kind of thing you would tell others.
earlier in this thread, you were looking for numbers...for the amount of miticides found in foundation (the penn state data doesn't appear to show this separate from other wax samples).  jennifer berry had a hard time finding "clean wax" even from foundationless comb.  is it likely that all foundation is contaminated to the same extent?  is it likely that a more heavily contaminated sample would have a greater impact on the bees?  is it reasonable to assume that the foundation you used was "typical" in it's contamination level?  (i'll answer that...no, it's not.  you can't even cite the contamination level of one single sheet of foundation, you certainly cannot have enough data to even guess at what is typical, what the range might be, and where your sample was on the continuum).
Quote
No matter what, I'm sure you would have something to pick at.
Now, it's just going round and round at this point.
are you suggesting that your "study" was perfect?  are you suggesting that we shouldn't take a critical look at the basis of your claims?  are you suggesting that you can find a single person with knowledge of bees and science that will agree with your conclusions (if all the facts are presented to them).
Quote
I said what I did, and what I didn't.
The rest is my own thoughts on the observations and what I have experienced.
I could care less what you think is adequate or inadequate.
I'm not out to write a book on the matter.  ;)
i think it's excelent that you have done these tests, and even better that you have posted the details.  what i find surprising is that you are willing to "live with" the assumptions you made, and still go on to claim things like that you tested transfer from the foundation to the bees.  my own opinion is irrelevant....can you find one knowledgable person to agree with you?

Quote
Going back to the beginning and dragging out points you already made, is becoming old.
i went "back to the beginning" because you were harping on others about the assumptions they were making.

Quote
That's the problem with beekeepers in the field who are trying to make a difference. Doing small tests, making observations known, and trying to pass along information, will always be seen as inadequate because some larger and more expensive approach was not taken or feasible.
oh please!  i applaud your efforts, but the inadequacies of the data you collected wrt the conclusions you have drawn (and presented as fact) are obvious and real.

Quote
Throw some money my way and help me out. I'll test the foundation next time.  :-D
check's in the mail...



Quote
Sorry if I don't respond to your posts from this point forward. I have a problem with "academia types" who sit and pick others who are trying to make a difference.
what a whiny copout.  i'm picking on your assumptions, not you.

deknow
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Scadsobees on December 11, 2010, 02:53:08 pm
I must have toxins in my foundation because there isn't any bugs on it.

Aphids on lettuce; not so bad.
Bugs in meat; bad!! :-D
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Bee-Bop on December 11, 2010, 03:12:21 pm
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH;

" The Hive and the Honey Bee " revised edition 1975
" Injuries to honey bees by poisoning "
"by E. Lawrence Arkins, B.S., M.S. Specialist in Entomology and Apiology, U.of Cal. Riverside "

pg. 683 par.3
----" Chlordane used  for ants will be absorbed into wax foundation, drawn comb and brood comb. When this happens, the absorbed chlordane may kill bees in colonies on which the equipment is placed  for several weeks or months. " ----

pg.684 par.1
---- "Lindane or DDVP ---Vapoa [DDVP dichlorvos ] ---- they give off fumes which are readily absorbed into bees wax and will kill all bees placed in the contaminated equipment for several months."

Of course what would Mr. Arkins know, compared to the many experts we have today. [ definition of experts -- ex, a has been, like ex wife ex husband -- sperts, little drips that come out of a faucet ]

BeeBop
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 11, 2010, 03:24:33 pm
Bee careful when you cross the bridge  :deadhorse:

http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp (http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 11, 2010, 07:50:05 pm
Quote
Aphids on lettuce; not so bad.
Bugs in meat; bad!!

You honestly believe that there are no bugs in meat?  The meat you buy in the grocery store has had a life of antibiotics among other disease preventative regiments, then butchered, washed down with Clorox, colored so you don't know what it really looks like and may even be radiated.  The whole purpose of that regiment is to eliminate most of the bugs.  Right now the only thing that gets them all is radiation (if it is done right).  Even still, give it some time and the bugs will return.

Now about chlordane, I know from experience that chlordane will kill just about everything.  In my case it was used for termite infestation.  At the time you could not purchase it but it was available to licensed pest control companies.  Previously it was available to everyone at any lawn and garden shop.  My first born was stricken with T cell leukemia. Was it the chlordane?  Good luck proving that, but I can guarantee you it wasn’t the bugs in the broccoli.  He went through hell and then was saved by a bone marrow transplant from his brother.  We thank God every day for the miracle.  He is now 32, contracted the disease when he was 8.

Do I have a biased opinion about chemicals, you betcha.

Laugh and make jokes all you want.  God forbid it should happen to you.
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: edward on December 11, 2010, 08:23:50 pm
Happy to hear that your sons OK :)

There are bugs and mold/fungus in or on everything.

All they are waiting for is the right surroundings/ecosystem that lets them thrive. Its all they want to do/live for. If you store things in an improper way/environment they will come  :-X

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: Acebird on December 11, 2010, 08:28:33 pm
Exactly. :)
Title: Re: Toxins in foundation
Post by: rdy-b on December 11, 2010, 08:37:31 pm
http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/organics.html (http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/organics.html)
 :lol: 8-) RDY-B


Excerpts follow:

Organically grown plants may each produce a minimum of 50 such natural
pesticides. Prof Bruce Ames is quoted as saying that the average person
consumes 1500mg of pesticides a day, of which 1499.91mg are endogenous
toxins, the remaining 0.09mg being synthetic pesticides applied to the
produce by the farmer.

“Anticarcinogenic phytochemicals in the diet protect humans equally well
against synthetic and natural carcinogens. Multiple hazard chemical
synergisms occur from both natural and synthetic sources. These
anticarcinogens do not distinguish whether carcinogens are synthetic or
natural in origin.”

Crop protection chemicals reduce plant stress, yet there is no pesticide
risk management program that evaluates the risk versus benefit equation to
balance the risk from crop protection chemicals (which are extensively
tested and heavily regulated) against the benefit of decreased risk from
natural plant and fungal toxicants (which are only sporadically tested and
regulated).

“The human diet has changed drastically in the last few thousand years, and
most humans are eating many recently introduced plants that their ancestors
did not. Natural selection works far too slowly for humans to have evolved
specific resistance to the food toxins in these newly introduced plants.”

“It is possible that every plant in the supermarket contains natural
carcinogens (legumes, cereals, fungi, herbs, spices and beverages included
with the fruits and vegetables) at levels commonly measured in the (highest)
parts per thousand ranges, ie. thousands of times higher than from man-made
pesticides.”