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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: 2Sox on May 07, 2013, 06:32:13 pm

Title: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 07, 2013, 06:32:13 pm
I'm going to start using Mite Away Quick Strips in my operation.  I just can't sustain the losses I've had going treatment free.   I wanted to know when you think it would be best to treat newly collected swarms.  Wait until Fall or treat when there is some capped brood in the hive? 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: alfred on May 07, 2013, 09:04:27 pm
Why not hit your new swarms with some oxalic aid vapor?
Alfred
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 07, 2013, 10:29:26 pm
Don't know too much about it.  Can you direct me to where I can find out the methods of application and where to get the materials needed?  Thanks.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: AllenF on May 07, 2013, 11:05:28 pm
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34970.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34970.0.html)

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: hardwood on May 07, 2013, 11:08:20 pm
That's for the trickle method Allen, just google it :)

Scott
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 07, 2013, 11:48:38 pm
Thanks.  I'd also like to get back to my original question about when to treat a swarm with MAQS.  Can anyone help me out with this?

Still would also like to find out oxalic acid vaporization method.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 08, 2013, 08:37:11 am
Mid August is a good time. A first year swarm should not be too heavy on mites.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 08, 2013, 09:05:20 am
I'm going to start using Mite Away Quick Strips in my operation.  I just can't sustain the losses I've had going treatment free.   I wanted to know when you think it would be best to treat newly collected swarms.  Wait until Fall or treat when there is some capped brood in the hive? 

Are you treatment free or not ???


                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 08, 2013, 09:49:02 am
I had been treatment free up until last season.  I lost all sixteen of my colonies over the winter.  I made a post about this previously.  NO more treatment free.  It's like vaccinations: Either every bee colony in the world goes treatment free, sustains unspeakable losses and hopefully reaches balance with the invading pest. OR every colony in the world gets its vaccination until the pest is a thing of the past.  I don't have another answer.  This loss had demoralized me, but I'm coming back.

I'll be using MAQS on my full colonies in the fall. 

I think I'll make a new revised post: "What are the best mite treatments and best timing for newly collected swarms?"
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: alfred on May 08, 2013, 11:03:29 am
Here is an old video of me doing the treatment with a pipe and shim rig I made. You don't need to use the plexiglass you could just put a cover over it. It was just nice to be able to see what is happening.

Beekeeping - Oxalic Acid Treatment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpktnn9lZU4#)


Since then I purchased this gizmo and it works great!!! very easy to use and if you do the treatment when the hive is broodless you kill all the mites.

2012 10 Oxalic acid vaporizer (JB200) for honey bee mite control (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32eeVDJ5JqQ#)

I will be doing treatments on new swarms this season. I will make a video of the process the next time I do one.
Alfred
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 08, 2013, 11:22:35 am
IMHO oxalic acid vaporization method is the best it will kill the mites under the wax caps and you can leave the supers on

http://youtu.be/i5G27nvlKtk (http://youtu.be/i5G27nvlKtk)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/)
 
You can buy one out of Canada for about $90.00
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/# (http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/#)

You can buy Oxalic Acid has a wood bleach at most any paint store.





                            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: johng on May 08, 2013, 01:13:28 pm
The head of the Bee Dept at the University of Fl.   spoke at our bee club recently. He was not a big fan of using powdered sugar on full size hives because it only gets the phorectic mites. But, he said you could powder sugar packages and start off with almost mite free bees. I would assume swarms would be the same as packages if you did it after they were settled in but before they had capped brood. Just a thought. Maqs can be pretty hard on queens I would not want to use it on too many swarms. Something like hopsgaurd should work great on swarms without any queen issues.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 08, 2013, 02:01:38 pm
couple of things here.  
New swarms should be very low on mites when caught and because there is obviously no brood the count will not rise that quickly.
I would not treat until fall
If you do try to treat a new swarm with formic acid I would bet they will abscond.  
Oxalic acid will not penetrate capping and unless it is done in a broodless time of the year it requires 3 treatments a week apart.   Again I would not use it on a new swarm because they would most likely abscond on you.
The 12volt Canadian oxalic vaporizer is fragile but if handled with care will last for years.  It operates off a VW glow plug that can be bought at the auto parts store for under 10 bucks or you can buy a replacement from the Canadian company for 35.00   Mine is 5 - 6 years old and is still on the original glow plug and has treated up to 70 colonies 2 time a year with 3 treatments each
If you build a burner out of pipe you will save money but I wouldn't use one without a acid cartridge respirator on.   With the 12 volt you can run it for as far away as you wire will reach.  In my case that is about 25 ft.  Even at this distance I have had a wind shift and got a whiff.   It will take your breath away.
according to the Canadian company oxalic should not be used with supers on      
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 08, 2013, 09:44:34 pm
I think the MAQS are supposed to be able to penetrate the capped brood and are listed as suitable for use with honey supers on.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 09, 2013, 08:15:45 am
Thanks, guys.  Good information. I think I'll leave the swarms alone until fall.

Also, it's my understanding that MAQS will penetrate the cappings - in fact the only treatment that will.

Michael Bush has a great page on his site about the pros and cons of treating.  I've been going back and forth about this for years, but after this 100% loss, I've got to do something else.  http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 09, 2013, 09:15:52 am
quick strips do penetrate cappings so the treatment is just 7 days.   You can have supers on with MAQS  and also hopguard.   You really have to watch the weather with the quick strips.  If it get to hot they kill and can even cause the colony to abcond.  With oxalic you can treat as often as you want (it does require 3 times 1 week apart) and the only temp requirement is it needs to be above 35deg.  You also have the option to use amatraz now.   
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 09, 2013, 09:41:44 am
  It's my understanding that MAQS is approve to be use (in a bee hive) ALL of the states in the USA

  Only a few states for (in a bee hive) Hopguard and Amatraz and oxalic acid is NOT approve in the USA at ALL





                                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 09, 2013, 02:20:24 pm
 It's my understanding that MAQS is approve to be use (in a bee hive) ALL of the states in the USA

  Only a few states for (in a bee hive) Hopguard and Amatraz and oxalic acid is NOT approve in the USA at ALL




                                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

This is all correct.    Hop guard is approved in 38 states including NY where 2sox is from.   Oxalic acid is approved in Canada and EU but will never be in the states because there is no money in it for anyone.   Because most of the world can use it there is a ton of available info on it

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Washington Yankee on May 09, 2013, 03:32:55 pm
Always looking to have my cake and eat it too, has anyone found one to be superior to the other as far as killing mites inside and outside the brood with the least impact to the bee's?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 09, 2013, 03:48:01 pm
Always looking to have my cake and eat it too, has anyone found one to be superior to the other as far as killing mites inside and outside the brood with the least impact to the bee's?
The only one that kills under capping is formic MAQS
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 09, 2013, 04:54:58 pm
IMHO Something to think about if you use Coumaphos for varroa mites.
 

On Saturday, March 2, 2013 I when to WCBA ALL DAY SPRING MEETING
(Worcester County Beekeepers Association In Massachusetts )
Dr. Jeff Pettis As research leader of the USDA-ARS Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville,
Dr. Jeff Pettis
Say Coumaphos will kill sperm inside the queen bees and you will get a drone lays or you may get a shotgun lays.


                   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 09, 2013, 05:01:16 pm
I didn't think anyone used Coumaphos for mite control in many years
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 09, 2013, 05:49:32 pm
This is from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm 5/9/12 4:45 PM
you: What is the Active ingredient in Check-Mite ???

Jenee: Hello, how may I help you?

you: Hi

Jenee: let me check for you

you: OK

Jenee: Coumaphos; [0,0-Diethyl 0-(3-chloro-4methyl-2-oxo-@H-1-benzopyran-7-yl) Phosphorothioate]

Jenee: 10%

you: OK

Jenee: Is there anything else I can help you with

you: no CUL

Jenee: Have a great day.
 

"Still being used in some products for varroa mites"


                                        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 09, 2013, 05:51:28 pm
Always looking to have my cake and eat it too, has anyone found one to be superior to the other as far as killing mites inside and outside the brood with the least impact to the bee's?
The only one that kills under capping is formic MAQS

That's why I'm leaning towards MAQS as my primary.  But I understand that it's best to rotate treatments periodically - Hopguard, Apivar Life, etc.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 09, 2013, 09:41:41 pm
This is from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm 5/9/12 4:45 PM
you: What is the Active ingredient in Check-Mite ???

Jenee: Hello, how may I help you?

you: Hi

Jenee: let me check for you

you: OK

Jenee: Coumaphos; [0,0-Diethyl 0-(3-chloro-4methyl-2-oxo-@H-1-benzopyran-7-yl) Phosphorothioate]

Jenee: 10%

you: OK

Jenee: Is there anything else I can help you with

you: no CUL

Jenee: Have a great day.
 

"Still being used in some products for varroa mites"


                                        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I really dont understand what your saying here?   I know whats in checkmite but as I said no has used it on mites for many years.  It is still used for SHB and IMHO  it is nasty stuff.   No one treats mites with it
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 09, 2013, 09:53:57 pm
Coumophos??? Check Mite???   Where is this going?


This discussion is taking a detour into Never-Never-Land and it's not useful.  Let's get back on track.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Jim134 on May 09, 2013, 11:13:52 pm
I had been treatment free up until last season.  I lost all sixteen of my colonies over the winter.  I made a post about this previously.  NO more treatment free.  It's like vaccinations: Either every bee colony in the world goes treatment free, sustains unspeakable losses and hopefully reaches balance with the invading pest. OR every colony in the world gets its vaccination until the pest is a thing of the past.  I don't have another answer.  This loss had demoralized me, but I'm coming back.

I'll be using MAQS on my full colonies in the fall. 

I think I'll make a new revised post: "What are the best mite treatments and best timing for newly collected swarms?"  

IMHO this opened it up for all kinds of treatments on varroa mites. If I am wrong I do apologize.




                                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 09, 2013, 11:15:51 pm
Jim,
I did start that other thread...
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 02:54:35 am
I'm actually curious about what people have to say on this topic as well.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Washington Yankee on May 10, 2013, 03:04:53 am
I know I do not have the experience most people here have. What I lack in experience I more than make up for in common sense. I believe in the non-treatment to a point. I think it's important that bee's be allowed to develop resistances to diseases in their environment naturally.

What I don't agree with is the fanaticism by which some people would allow complete die outs to occur without any intervention. It's not practical, it's cruel, and it's expensive. I would be willing to try natural treatments and in severe cases, treatments like MAQ's, which have so far been proven not to be detrimental to the bees and their larvae.

Jeff 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: RHBee on May 10, 2013, 05:55:01 am
Read the directions for MAQ's. Temperature is very important. I used it last year, very effective, also killed a lot lot bees. I'm talking a pretty good pile in front of every colony. This year I'm going to use oxalic acid in both vapor and trickle. Vapor for mid summer knock down and trickle for fall broodless period. Oxalic acid occurs naturally in honey and many plants I don't see a down side to it. Finski's formula for the European trickle method is a sticky the vaporization method is well documented in this forum. I made a stainless steel pipe about 4ft long to deliver the vapor and plan to use a propane burner to get to the correct temp. A 1" shim used on top of the colony and a cloth to seal the entrance up.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 10, 2013, 07:19:15 am
Formic acid in MAQS also is found naturally in the hive. As always read the instructions. remove entrance reducers, if bees crowd heavily outside the hive, add an empty super to give them room to move around in the hive if needed.
 Ray, the broodless period most likely will be in the December timeframe. But it is important to treat before they start reaing the winter bees so they have a better chance of going into winter healthy.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 10, 2013, 08:00:46 am
Formic acid in MAQS also is found naturally in the hive. As always read the instructions. remove entrance reducers, if bees crowd heavily outside the hive, add an empty super to give them room to move around in the hive if needed.
 Ray, the broodless period most likely will be in the December timeframe. But it is important to treat before they start reaing the winter bees so they have a better chance of going into winter healthy.

Are you saying to place an empty super on top of the boxes when treating with MAQS?  What would be the reason to do this?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 10, 2013, 08:53:29 am
Formic acid in MAQS also is found naturally in the hive. As always read the instructions. remove entrance reducers, if bees crowd heavily outside the hive, add an empty super to give them room to move around in the hive if needed.
 Ray, the broodless period most likely will be in the December timeframe. But it is important to treat before they start rearing the winter bees so they have a better chance of going into winter healthy.

Are you saying to place an empty super on top of the boxes when treating with MAQS?  What would be the reason to do this?

Temp can be a real problem with MAQS.   To hot and it disperses the vapor to fast.   To consentrated vapor and bee's start dieing, bearding and could abscond.  A empty super just gives them more temporary space. 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 10, 2013, 09:22:46 am
Formic acid in MAQS also is found naturally in the hive. As always read the instructions. remove entrance reducers, if bees crowd heavily outside the hive, add an empty super to give them room to move around in the hive if needed.
 Ray, the broodless period most likely will be in the December timeframe. But it is important to treat before they start rearing the winter bees so they have a better chance of going into winter healthy.

Are you saying to place an empty super on top of the boxes when treating with MAQS?  What would be the reason to do this?

Temp can be a real problem with MAQS.   To hot and it disperses the vapor to fast.   To consentrated vapor and bee's start dieing, bearding and could abscond.  A empty super just gives them more temporary space. 

Sounds like good advice.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 10, 2013, 09:56:23 am
another natural treatment that has not been mentioned is thymol.  I have used apiguard a few times with good success.   
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 10:42:03 am
Question: what are the negative aspects or consequences to using each of these products mentioned - Apiguard, Apivar, Mite-Away, and so forth?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 10:56:27 am
I believe in the non-treatment to a point. I think it's important that bee's be allowed to develop resistances to diseases in their environment naturally.

What I don't agree with is the fanaticism by which some people would allow complete die outs to occur without any intervention. It's not practical, it's cruel, and it's expensive. I would be willing to try natural treatments and in severe cases, treatments like MAQ's, which have so far been proven not to be detrimental to the bees and their larvae.

Seconded.  I do not believe in "preventative" treatment for my bees; I don't automatically medicate by calendar.  However, if the colony is obviously ill and suffering, and I can easily help with some non-toxic treatment or even a special hive component, it's not even a dilemma for me.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 10, 2013, 11:03:01 am
that kills under capping is formic MAQS

so the advertiser says but it not true.

Recommended treatment time is 3 weeks = brood cycle.

And when you look efficacy in practice, it is not 96% allways. Often it is 70 or 80%.

Yo may find researches that acid kills under brood caps but why 3 week treatment is needed?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 10, 2013, 12:17:09 pm
Miteaway pads that was replaced with the miteaway quick strips was a 21 day treatment.   The quick strips is a 7 day treatment.   All the rest are 21 days.
  melliferal   "if the colony is obviously ill and suffering"   By the time you start seeing "ill and suffering" you are to late. 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 10, 2013, 01:22:52 pm
>Question: what are the negative aspects or consequences to using each of these products mentioned - Apiguard, Apivar, Mite-Away, and so forth?


Apigaurd = thymol = essential oil.  Very temperature dependent.  Broad spectrum microbial that kills the necessary microbes in the colony.  Runs the bees out the door on a hot day.

Apivar=Amitraz= an insecticide, relabeled as an acaracide.  It's been in heavy use (illegally) by the commercial beekeepers since the Varroa arrived.  It builds up in the wax.  Causes sterility in queens and drones.  Shortens the life of bees.  The Varroa have had two decades to build up resistance to it.

Mite-Away=either MAQS (formic acid strips) or the formic acid pads.  Broad spectrum anti-microbial.  Kills queens.  Kills brood.  Very temperature dependent.

The bee colony is a complex ecology consisting, in a natural system, of over 8,000 microorganisms

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1)

120 mites

http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954 (http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954)

and numerous insects.

Many of these microorganisms fill some niche that keeps out pathogens.  Many are necessary for the proper fermentation of bee bread.  Many are necessary to protect the gut of the bee.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188)

All of the treatments will affect one or more of the above.  Amitraz will kill the beneficial and benign mites and insects, e.g. psudoscorpians etc.  So will Fluvalinate (Apistan) and Cumophos (Checkmite).  The organic acids and essential oils will wipe out the entire spectrum of microorganisms and probably many of the mites and insects as well.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 02:08:59 pm
So basically, one would not want to be using these treatments on a continual basis, but rather mostly in emergent or dire circumstances.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 10, 2013, 02:53:19 pm
So basically, one would not want to be using these treatments on a continual basis, but rather mostly in emergent or dire circumstances.
it is controvesy. They are for continual usage.

European Union Varroa Group started to sieve the best  mite killing methods 1998.
2003 they had tested the  best methods and work was ready about 2006.

Best modern  methods are thymol, formic acid and oxalic acid. These are widely used now in Europe 10-15 years.   Nothing new methods have not been invented since then.

Canada accepted this system one year ago even if it has been known 10 years.
i have teached these things in Beemaster about 7 years, without much results.

There are about 140 chemical treatment against varroa and beeks do not much mind what they push into hives. They just don't know what they are doing. "I heard" is the best reason to use it.
"it is tested" -  it means nothing.

.

.


Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 10, 2013, 03:23:24 pm
>So basically, one would not want to be using these treatments on a continual basis, but rather mostly in emergent or dire circumstances.

I never use any of them.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 10, 2013, 03:34:29 pm
>So basically, one would not want to be using these treatments on a continual basis, but rather mostly in emergent or dire circumstances.

I never use any of them.


What have been your average percentage losses over the last few years?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 10, 2013, 04:11:39 pm
From winter?  It varies a lot from year to year.  From Varroa?  None.  It was a bad winter this last winter, but I can't find but a hundred or less dead Varroa on the bottom boards of the deadouts.

They are inspected every spring for queen rearing and selling queens and have no Varroa issues:
http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm)

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 10, 2013, 04:45:36 pm
.
Michaels has his own systems. They not very practical to those who have mite problems, as most have.

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 06:17:06 pm
So basically, one would not want to be using these treatments on a continual basis, but rather mostly in emergent or dire circumstances.
it is controvesy. They are for continual usage.

European Union Varroa Group started to sieve the best  mite killing methods 1998.
2003 they had tested the  best methods and work was ready about 2006.

Best modern  methods are thymol, formic acid and oxalic acid. These are widely used now in Europe 10-15 years.   Nothing new methods have not been invented since then.

Canada accepted this system one year ago even if it has been known 10 years.
i have teached these things in Beemaster about 7 years, without much results.

There are about 140 chemical treatment against varroa and beeks do not much mind what they push into hives. They just don't know what they are doing. "I heard" is the best reason to use it.
"it is tested" -  it means nothing.

.

.

It is illegal to use an unapproved treatment in the US.

I may have read incorrectly, but I seem to remember seeing that some of the treatments we're discussing are thymol or oxalic-based, yes?  Apiguard and MiteAway?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 10, 2013, 06:52:19 pm
From winter?  It varies a lot from year to year.  From Varroa?  None.  It was a bad winter this last winter, but I can't find but a hundred or less dead Varroa on the bottom boards of the deadouts.

They are inspected every spring for queen rearing and selling queens and have no Varroa issues:
http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm)

Yes, from winter.  

And the rest is astonishing.  
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 10, 2013, 08:51:05 pm
[
.

It is illegal to use an unapproved treatment in the US.
[/quote]

I know that argument. It is pure rubbish.. 

This forum is full of all kind of mite killing procedures, and no one is in jail.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: alfred on May 10, 2013, 11:41:05 pm
I never use oxalic acid to treat mites.. I use wood bleach to treat my woodenware, which for convenience I do with the colony still in the hive. Some mites die as a tragic side effect......

Alfred
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 10, 2013, 11:46:18 pm


I know that argument. It is pure rubbish.. 

This forum is full of all kind of mite killing procedures, and no one is in jail.

It's not illegal to talk about unapproved treatments; just to actually use them. 

I'm sure those treatments you mentioned, if effective, will be legal in the US eventually.  Right now, they're simply not available here, so in the meantime we'll use others.  Most people who have used the treatments we've discussed here came away with living colonies, so they can serve at least for now.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 01:05:57 am


I know that argument. It is pure rubbish.. 

This forum is full of all kind of mite killing procedures, and no one is in jail.

It's not illegal to talk about unapproved treatments; just to actually use them. 

I'm sure those treatments you mentioned, if effective, will be legal in the US eventually.  Right now, they're simply not available here, so in the meantime we'll use others.  Most people who have used the treatments we've discussed here came away with living colonies, so they can serve at least for now.


heh heh heh

i was in NZ beekeeping forum. They discussed there how oxalic acid trickling is that and that.
I went there to tell how the stuff works . They got nervous because I spoke against their opinions. They just did not know how to use it. I had used it 8 years.

Then I told that they in use trickling in swarms and artificial swarms.

Then they  banned  me because artificial swarms are illegal in NZ  second thing, I recommended illegal method to be used.

One wrote that artificial swarms are illegal as a treatment of AFB, but not prevent swarming.
Then we noticed that oxalic acid is in a list of allowed stuff.

 Finally I noticed that it is vain to teach perfect idiots and they continues their stupid information session..
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 01:27:42 am
.
I just read that only accepted mite killer in USA is Apistan stips,  and we know that there are mites have high resistancy against it.

In new winter loss report it was said that 66% out of untreated hives died in winter.

Save the bees, save the bees. 8 years have been cried for that.

I am really tired to read how illegal it is save bees from varroa. Year after year.
But you may really write all kind of rubbish about best methods and then you try all kind of humbug things there.

 In Britain they play their illegal play too.

In European Union countries there are too that "accepted vet stuff policy". But who cares when one must save his hives and his workplace.





 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 11, 2013, 02:02:34 am
.
I just read that only accepted mite killer in USA is Apistan stips,  and we know that there are mites have high resistancy against it.


Where did you read that?  I'm sure what you read must have been mistaken or outdated.  As an American, from American beekeeping supply companies targeted at American beekeepers, right now I can buy Apistan and Checkmite, as well as Hopguard, Apiguard (thymol), MiteAway (formic acid), ApiVar (amitraz), as well as any number of IPM components.  These are blatantly advertised as explicitly for Varroa mite control, which would not be permitted if these treatments were not legal.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: capt44 on May 11, 2013, 02:19:13 am
I usually wait until August.
I usually do the sugar roll test and uncapped drone brood.
Before I treat with Formic acid I watch the weather and when I'm going to have 6 days or so temperatures below 90 degrees F. I treat.
I treat for 5 days only then remove the patties.
You will have a fairly high mortality rate on the old bees but you'll have young bees, brood, and eggs coming on.
This spring the inspector checked my hives on each of my bee yards.
I had strong colonies with drone crawling around March 4.
I had no signs of varroa mites.
I had signs of hive beetles.
My hives are very strong now.
Formic Acid is very strong, wear a respirator, and wear chemical type gloves.
All I can say is my colonies are in very good shape.
February 15th I started with sugar syrup 1-1 with Pro Health supplement and pollen/protein patties.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 02:39:11 am
Where did you read that?  I'm sure what you read must have been mistaken or outdated.  As an American, from American beekeeping supply companies targeted at American beekeepers, right now I can buy Apistan and Checkmite, as well as Hopguard, Apiguard (thymol), MiteAway (formic acid), ApiVar (amitraz), as well as any number of IPM components.  These are blatantly advertised as explicitly for Varroa mite control, which would not be permitted if these treatments were not legal.

it is good that you need not to waste your energy with illegal issues. It is not my problem.

I read 2010 paper.

The  basic is how good is the information when you use those stuffs.

 .
Guys are fond on product names when something new comes to market.
However it may have 20 years experience about basic stuff,  like about formic acid.

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 11, 2013, 08:06:03 am
MAny of the products are approved on a state by stae basis.Not all products need federal approval. There is no money to be made for someone to have oxalic acid approved which is why you do not see supply houses pushing for approval.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 11, 2013, 11:55:05 am
Aww come on; you just don't have enough vision.  There shouldn't have been any money in formic acid, since anyone can just get some formic acid from a non-beekeeping supplier and use it, right?  But, presto - Mite Away formic acid treatment.  There shouldn't be any money in sugar; it's a very common grocery store item.  But, beekeeping suppliers offer it!

When oxalic acid is approved, something similar to Mite Away will come about.  It might just be evap pads, specially designed to fit in Langstroth hives.  Or it might be the acid in combination with some other treatment - introducing MelliFree strips, the all-in-one total mite solution, featuring oxalic acid and menthol for control of Varroa and tracheal mites in one convenient treatment!  A little imagination goes a long way.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 12:41:39 pm
.

Mellifera, now  you invent your own ideas. The world has tens of universities which develope varroa treatment and test treatments.

i know that oxalic acid has been used in USA  10 - 15 years widely. And it is adviced too widely how to do it.

Methods are water solution spraying, syrup trickling and fumication.


Look at US university research programs what they are doing. Strange but they are doing same what has done in Europe 10 y ago.

.




Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 12:48:16 pm

When oxalic acid is approved, something similar to Mite Away will come about.  It might just be evap pads, specially designed to fit in Langstroth hives.  Or it might be the acid in combination with some other treatment - introducing MelliFree strips, the all-in-one total mite solution, featuring oxalic acid and menthol for control of Varroa and tracheal mites in one convenient treatment!  A litte imagination goes a long way.

but Mellifera, you have very poor knowledge about these stuffs. Sad to say it.
Oxalic acid is carefully researched 15 years and all information is in internet.
Get the basic knowledge first.

Think 15 years research. Does it mean something?
And results has been splended.

Put into google "varroa nanetti" if you need good information.

Nanetti is a beekeeping professor in Italy.
.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 11, 2013, 01:57:05 pm
but Mellifera, you have very poor knowledge about these stuffs. Sad to say it.
Oxalic acid is carefully researched 15 years and all information is in internet.
Get the basic knowledge first.

Think 15 years research. Does it mean something?
And results has been splended.

Put into google "varroa nanetti" if you need good information.

Nanetti is a beekeeping professor in Italy.


Don't be sad to say it - you are correct I know absolutely nothing about oxalic acid, except that it is not yet approved for use in beehives where I live.  I don't know where it comes from naturally, how it is derived, or even what form it commonly comes in - powder or grains or liquid?  No clue.  On the other hand, I have no reason to say you're wrong about it being useful; I have no reason to doubt its efficacy as so many beekeepers such as yourself have testified to it.  You're obviously really passionate about it, and you've been a beekeeper longer than I have been most likely, and I respect that and I want you to know that I believe what you say.

It's just that, for myself and only myself I have ethical reservations about using illegal treatments, or better I should say treatments that aren't strictly legal where I live.  I don't believe in the attitude that things are only illegal if someone else sees you doing them.  And yes I realize that if I were to use oxalic acid in my hives when I started them again next year, my state's department of agriculture would NOT raid my little apiary with an FBI SWAT team; likewise, I know that few of my fellow beekeepers would judge me harshly if I used the stuff (and I hope nobody feels I'm judging them by abstaining); but to me those things makes little difference, they are not drivers of my behavior.  I'm not exactly a Dudley Do-Right; but I prefer to be straight-laced, if that makes any sense to you.  Little things like this matter in that regard.

In your earlier post, you noted that the European universities found that the best mite treatments were thymol, formic acid, and oxalic acid.  Well, oxalic acid has not been approved here yet; but thymol and formic acid are available.  I can use those.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 02:33:02 pm
.
If you do not use oxalic acid, it does not make it worthles. It is the best method ever developed when hives are without brood during winter. It is easy to use for swarms too.

 Propably it does not work in Louisiana.

Do you drive ever over speed with car when you have so pure soul?

Are carrots illegal in USA? They have 100 times more oxalic acid than honey taken from treated hive. 

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 11, 2013, 03:13:34 pm
.
If you do not use oxalic acid, it does not make it worthles. It is the best method ever developed when hives are without brood during winter. It is easy to use for swarms too.

 Propably it does not work in Louisiana.

Do you drive ever over speed with car when you have so pure soul?

Are carrots illegal in USA? They have 100 times more oxalic acid than honey taken from treated hive. 

Again, I'm sure it works fine.

Speeding in a car?  I have looked down at the speedometer and found I've gone overspeed.  Then I slow down.  When I was a young person I sped a few times on purpose.  Nowadays I use cruise control, which electronically maintains a chosen speed; I set it, and it eliminates the possibility of going overspeed on accident.  You think the situations are analogous?  It isn't really possible to accidentally treat your colonies with oxalic acid as far as I'm aware.

Carrots are not illegal in the US; also, bees do not eat carrots, and I never mentioned being concerned about honey contamination from oxalic acid treatment as a factor which informed my decision.

I would like to know, if as you said the studies mentioned that thymol and formic acid as well as oxalic acid are the best treatments for bees, why using thymol or formic acid isn't good enough.  You said they were two of the best.  Now you act as if they are insufficient.  I'm confused by this inconsistency.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 04:38:46 pm
[  You said they were two of the best.  Now you act as if they are insufficient.  I'm confused by this inconsistency.


ok, you want that your life is perfect. So beekeeping is not your thing.

Bees have 32 diseases and pests. You ask why?
  I answer, why I should know?

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 11, 2013, 04:58:53 pm
Oxalic can be dribbled in the hive when they are broodless in December. When bees are broodless, mite reduction is more effective.
  Starting into spring with a near zero mite count gives a drastic reduction in mite numbers in August. If you incorporate a couple methods, mites can be knocked down to a small factor in bee diseases.
The point is even though oxalic has not been approved in the US it has a proven track record in Europe and Canada where it is used quite regularly. Powdered sugar is not a approved method, but many use it.
I have heard many package producers are hitting the bees with oxalic before sending them. But I do not know if this is fact.If they are , they are doing the beginner a favor in making it easier to get through the first winter.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 05:12:48 pm

I have heard many package producers are hitting the bees with oxalic before sending them. But I do not know if this is fact.

oxalic is splended to handle swarm like packages.
It has no gas or odor problems and does not hurt queens and bees are not panicing.

.


Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 11, 2013, 05:33:47 pm

The bee colony is a complex ecology consisting, in a natural system, of over 8,000 microorganisms

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1)

120 mites

http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954 (http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954)

and numerous insects.

Many of these microorganisms fill some niche that keeps out pathogens.  Many are necessary for the proper fermentation of bee bread.  Many are necessary to protect the gut of the bee.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188)

All of the treatments will affect one or more of the above.  Amitraz will kill the beneficial and benign mites and insects, e.g. psudoscorpians etc.  So will Fluvalinate (Apistan) and Cumophos (Checkmite).  The organic acids and essential oils will wipe out the entire spectrum of microorganisms and probably many of the mites and insects as well.


Michael,

I agree that it is important that we be aware of the complex ecosystem within the beehive and take it into consideration if we treat and when we treat.  The sites above give us that.  By the way, only one makes reference to the effect that antibiotics only have on the microbes within this ecosystem.  

I'm a firm believer that any medication should ONLY be taken in the case of severe disease or to prevent death.  I've taken antibiotics for this reason - as much as I was against doing so.  My gut was doing some summersaults for awhile, I ate a good deal of yogurt and - I lived. My intestinal flora came back, I regained my health and I'm back in shape.  And I'm sure others on this forum can report similar experiences.

I understand the argument against treating and I'm also familiar with the passion of the "treatment free" crowd:  If you treat, you breed stronger mites and weaker bees. This argument has great merit. But I'd treat to prevent a loss like the one I had this past winter - 100%. And although I don't want to go anthropomorphic here, I'd treat to prevent the suffering and slow death of hundreds of thousands of creatures that benefit humanity so greatly. (I'm fairly certain you feel the same but you approach the saving of the honeybee from a different perspective.) I think it's possible to extrapolate from the medication of animals - including us - that if the bees survive, the beneficial microbial flaura and fauna within the hive will return and the surviving bees will be given a second lease on life.  We've also learned hard lessons from the factory farming industry that you don't medicate animals prophylactically or around the clock. This has given us antibiotic resistant bacteria - super germs - and early puberty in children. Now science is doing catch up.

And then there is the ethical consideration: If we have the power to save life, should we take action?  Should we allow our bees to die while waiting for nature to create that dynamic equilibrium?  Does humankind have a responsibility to be involved in this process? We already are. Look at the enormous amount of time, energy, resources and money going into bee research.  Another case in point which I believe is has arisen from a deep ethical impulsion: The explosion in the numbers of "backyard beekeepers" ever since CCD became a household term.    

On another note: Other than anecdotal reports, I'm extremely skeptical that your successes have been reproduced on a large scale.  If they have been, I'd love to see the research, data and results.                            
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: alfred on May 11, 2013, 08:34:37 pm
So like I said I just use Wood Bleach to treat my woodenware and since I'm lazy I leave the bees in the hive when I do....

So I just recently looked up the state regs regarding beekeeping. I looked it up because of another of those "it's against the law" statements. In that case it turned out that it was true. I didn't see anywhere that it said that I couldn't use oxalic acid as a treatment for mites. Nor did I see any list of "approved treatments" for mites.

I did see that Mites are on the list of bee diseases that we are supposed to control:

"8 CCR 1203-4 RULES AND REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT OF THE BEE AND BEE PRODUCTS ACT 
I.  Contagious Diseases
A.  The following diseases and mites, having been determined by the Bee Advisory Committee as being hazardous to the beekeeping industry in this state, are contagious diseases for purposes of C.R.S. 35-25-101 et seq.
 
 1.  American Foul Brood
 2.  European Foul Brood
 3.  Varroa jacobsoni
 4.  Acarapis woodi"
 
---------------
"D.  If any contagious disease is found in any hive, the entire apiary shall be placed under quarantine and no colonies can be sold, destroyed or moved or transferred into or out of the apiary without the written permission of the Colorado Department of Agriculture. All such diseased hives found shall be medically treated, chemically sterilized or sterilized by burning. The method used shall be one acceptable by the Commissioner. Accepted measures for medically treating or sterilizing diseased hives may include but shall not be limited to:  
1.  Application of a powder consisting of approximately 3.5 percent by weight terramycin and approximately 96.5 percent by weight of one or more non-toxic substances applied to tops of brood frames at rate of approximately one tablespoon every four days for a period not less than three consecutive weeks; or by application of such other medical treatment as may hereafter be determined by the Commissioner to be equally effective.
 
 
2.  Fumigation of equipment exposed to or otherwise contaminated by the causative agents of a contagious disease, in an atmosphere consisting of Ethylene Oxide gas at a sufficient concentration, pressure, temperature, humidity and for an amount of time under these conditions to destroy the ability of the causative agents to infect any bee with a contagious disease.
 
 
3.  Sterilization of any and all bees infected with or exposed to any equipment exposed to a contagious bee disease, by burning said bee equipment and burying under at least 12 inches of earth.
"

As you can see by the section that I highlighted, we are not limited to using the above methods. Nowhere does it say that we cannot use oxalic acid.

Where do I find this supposed list of "approved" treatments, and who does the approving? As far as I can see I can do what I want. Obviously I wouldn't want to put anything in the hive that was toxic (or at least in toxic levels) to bees or humans. Oxalic acid is much more benign than most chemical treatments. It occurs naturally in many of our foods. In addition to this I never use it when there are supers on. The same precaution as when doing anything with the hives, including something as harmless as powdered sugar.

On a similar note is lemongrass approved for calming bees? Or other mixtures approved for stimulating feeding? What about protein mixtures for feeding. How about the various materials people use for their smokers? Burlap smoke, Pine needle smoke, special little pellets from the suppliers smoke, why not oxalic acid smoke?....

So I am honestly curious where the law is that says that I can't use Oxalic Acid to treat for mites.
Not that I do....

Alfred
 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 11, 2013, 09:57:09 pm
It's the USDA that approves drugs or other substances intended to function as medical treatments, including veterinary drugs (as for bees and other animals).  The law that says you can't use unapproved treatments is quite simply the law that is evoked on the label of every chemical and drug sold in the US; something to the effect of "it is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its label".

Of course, as I mentioned before, the Feds aren't going to raid you for feeding your bees anything unless it's somehow threatening other people or animals.  It's on you whether you decide to listen or not.  I choose to follow the rules and my advice to others if asked would be the same.  But, that's just me.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Washington Yankee on May 11, 2013, 10:48:19 pm
I was a FMF Corpsman attached to the Marines for 17 years of my 24 years in the service. I don't have a broad knowledge of medicine, I am not a doctor, I mainly dealt with trauma care in the field under enemy fire. It doesn't take that training to know that it's very important to avoid antibiotics unless you find yourself in the most dire of circumstances. I agree with 2Sox on this account. Bacteria can evolve to quickly and if you start popping pills you will quickly find that they won't work when you need them most.

The reason I started this way is because it goes the same with bee's. I wholeheartedly disagree with those that do the preventative measures on the same premise as antibiotics. Now on the other hand, for those who are 100% non-treatment, I do respect the approach that is taken, in a perfect world, that would be my stand. It's not perfect. If you you came down with gangrene, would you let yourself die for posterity's sake? I think not. Why would you let tens of thousands of bee's die? It is more ethical if it's done to strengthen the bee's predisposition to disease, but it is unethical, so you can put on your honey label that they are untreated. Treat the bee's as you would treat yourself. That is how I treat people, that is how I will treat bee's. Remember, you have volunteered to act as their steward, so it is your responsibility to help them stay alive as much as you feasibly can.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 11, 2013, 11:02:58 pm
.
Funny thing is that some individual persons create their own rules to beekeeping.
They do not need universities or common theory about beekeeping.

One of these theories or manners is that "only desperate persons extract honey and sell it".
Like one well known member  wrote that "he thinks that people in Finland are so poor that they must extract honey".   - that is the way how to create the own world.

Oh boy....
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 12, 2013, 10:07:05 am
but Mellifera, you have very poor knowledge about these stuffs. Sad to say it.
Oxalic acid is carefully researched 15 years and all information is in internet.
Get the basic knowledge first.

Think 15 years research. Does it mean something?
And results has been splended.

Put into google "varroa nanetti" if you need good information.

Nanetti is a beekeeping professor in Italy.


Don't be sad to say it - you are correct I know absolutely nothing about oxalic acid, except that it is not yet approved for use in beehives where I live.  I don't know where it comes from naturally, how it is derived, or even what form it commonly comes in - powder or grains or liquid?  No clue.  On the other hand, I have no reason to say you're wrong about it being useful; I have no reason to doubt its efficacy as so many beekeepers such as yourself have testified to it.  You're obviously really passionate about it, and you've been a beekeeper longer than I have been most likely, and I respect that and I want you to know that I believe what you say.

It's just that, for myself and only myself I have ethical reservations about using illegal treatments, or better I should say treatments that aren't strictly legal where I live.  I don't believe in the attitude that things are only illegal if someone else sees you doing them.  And yes I realize that if I were to use oxalic acid in my hives when I started them again next year, my state's department of agriculture would NOT raid my little apiary with an FBI SWAT team; likewise, I know that few of my fellow beekeepers would judge me harshly if I used the stuff (and I hope nobody feels I'm judging them by abstaining); but to me those things makes little difference, they are not drivers of my behavior.  I'm not exactly a Dudley Do-Right; but I prefer to be straight-laced, if that makes any sense to you.  Little things like this matter in that regard.

In your earlier post, you noted that the European universities found that the best mite treatments were thymol, formic acid, and oxalic acid.  Well, oxalic acid has not been approved here yet; but thymol and formic acid are available.  I can use those.

Melliferal,

Take a look at the May issue of American Bee Journal.  Randy Oliver has an excellent article that speaks directly to you stand and addresses other issues that we have discussed on the thread.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 12, 2013, 12:06:47 pm
This is a list of Vegetables that contain Oxalic acid
 
 Amaranth
 Asparagus
 Beans, snap
 Beet leaves
 Broccoli
 Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
 Carrot
 Cassava
 Cauliflower
 Celery
 Chicory
 Chives
 Collards
Coriander
 Corn, sweet
 Cucumbers
 Eggplant
 Endive
 Garlic
 Kale
 Lettuce
 Okra
 Onion
 Parsley
 Parsnip
 Pea
 Bell pepper
 Potato
 Purslane
 Radish
 Rutabaga
 Spinach
 Squash
 Sweet potato
 Tomato
 Turnip
 Turnip greens
 Watercress
 

Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 12, 2013, 04:47:37 pm
You missed Rhubarb,:)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: danno on May 12, 2013, 05:54:51 pm
You missed Rhubarb,:)
How did I miss rhubarb?  It is screaming high in oxalic
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 13, 2013, 02:20:31 am
.
One guy invented that he put a dried rhubard leave into the hive. When bees bite it, they get oxalic acid and it kills mites.

- I think that this is against the law.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 13, 2013, 08:39:59 am
.
One guy invented that he put a dried rhubard leave into the hive. When bees bite it, they get oxalic acid and it kills mites.

- I think that this is against the law.

This is a joke.......right? ;)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 13, 2013, 09:04:25 am
I have serious doubts that any treatment kills mites in capped cells in any significant numbers.  And if it does, then it's even more dangerous to the bees and to brood...  But, if one organic acid being vaporized does, then probably any would.  Of all of the organic acids (all of which will totally disrupt the microbes in the colony and damage the bees by the same mechanism it does the mites) the only one you have really good control over (not temperature dependent) is vaporizing Oxalic acid.  Since you are controlling the heat causing the vaporization, rather than ambient temperatures, you can get a predictable result.  With Formic, it's always temperature dependent.  Although thymol isn't an organic acid, it has the same issues of being very dependent on the ambient temperature (and killing a wide spectrum of microbes).   As long as the dosage varies greatly because of things beyond your control, you cannot get predictable results and whenever you are trying to kill an arthropod on a arthropod, you are going to have to have very precise dosage in order to not kill workers, and queens along with Varroa.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 13, 2013, 10:02:28 am
I have serious doubts that any treatment kills mites in capped cells in any significant numbers.  And if it does, then it's even more dangerous to the bees and to brood

So it is. Thymol and formic acids are meant to treat brood hive, that mites do not hurt winter cluster bees.
The more stuff, the more injuries to brood and queen.

For exaple Cadanians have use formic acid lond time and 2 years ago they had bad draw backs.

in Switserland they lost 50% of hives 2 years ago for varroa.

In Finland we have had too serious problems with varroa even if it seemed that the issue is under control.

. Yes, in practice things do not go like in thery.


Last summer I treated a swarm with 1% formic acid solutiuon. It did not killed mites. I know that 3% affect very well. I read a new research which said that 3% is too strong and 1% is suitable. But I know now that it is not.

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: buzzbee on May 13, 2013, 08:13:19 pm
If you have a heavy mite load in the fall and choose to do nothing, you likely will not have to struggle with this decision  the following summer.
Gather all the info you can and rest well with whayever you decide to do.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 14, 2013, 01:17:28 am
.
It was just researched wild colonies in UK and their life cycle and result was that no colony lived 3 winters.
It means that there is no feral bees out there. They are escaped swarms.

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 14, 2013, 09:04:22 am
I read in either American Bee Journal or Bee Culture that any beekeeper who does not treat will not have any of his/her colonies live longer than three years - tops.  I wish I remembered the author.  But this goes along with what you write, Finski.  I've been doing this only six years but from my experience, this seems to be true for me.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 14, 2013, 10:14:27 am
.
I gove first time mite medicine Perizin to bees 1987.
25 years ago.

In my country hives die in second winter.
.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 14, 2013, 12:59:53 pm
>I wish I remembered the author

It is a commonly held belief.  It could be almost anyone...
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 14, 2013, 01:00:46 pm
Belief...or fact?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 14, 2013, 01:38:54 pm
Belief...or fact?

It is fact. Michael has his own facts.

But 2Sox  has met this fact in his own beekeeping, and it is called experience. If he repeats the same system, it is called stupidity.

"2Sox: I've been doing this only six years but from my experience, this seems to be true for me."

..
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 14, 2013, 01:44:40 pm
.
by Zachary Huang, Department of Entomology, Michigan State University, E. Lansing, MI 48824

CAP Updates: 29
•Jointly published in the American Bee Journal and in Bee Culture, October 2012.

The varroa mite (Varroa destructor Anderson and Trueman) is an ecto-parasite of the Western honey bee (Apis mellifera) and is distributed worldwide. Because A. mellifera colonies almost always die within two to three years after mite infestation, if not treated, feral bee colonies (unmanaged colonies in the wild) in U.S. were almost totally wiped out by this mite around 1995, less than a decade after it was introduced to the USA (around 1987).  There is anecdotal evidence that honey bees might be becoming feral again in recent years (resistant genetics possibly leaking out due to swarming), but there is no systematic study proving this.  Unless otherwise noted, throughout this paper I will use “varroa”, “varroa mite” or the generic “mite” interchangeably to refer to V. destructor. The varroa mite is currently the most severe pest of managed honey bees worldwide.  Understanding the varroa mite’s reproductive biology will therefore allow us to better manage this important pest.

And more reading http://www.extension.org/pages/65450/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology (http://www.extension.org/pages/65450/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology)
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 14, 2013, 01:51:46 pm
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Research Article
 
Varroa-Virus Interaction in Collapsing Honey Bee Colonies  2012
 Roy M. Francis mail, Steen L. Nielsen,   Per Kryger  

 Abstract

Varroa mites and viruses are the currently the high-profile suspects in collapsing bee colonies. Therefore, seasonal variation in varroa load and viruses (Acute-Kashmir-Israeli complex (AKI) and Deformed Wing Virus (DWV)) were monitored in a year-long study. We investigated the viral titres in honey bees and varroa mites from 23 colonies (15 apiaries) under three treatment conditions: Organic acids (11 colonies), pyrethroid (9 colonies) and untreated (3 colonies). Approximately 200 bees were sampled every month from April 2011 to October 2011, and April 2012. The 200 bees were split to 10 subsamples of 20 bees and analysed separately, which allows us to determine the prevalence of virus-infected bees. The treatment efficacy was often low for both treatments. In colonies where varroa treatment reduced the mite load, colonies overwintered successfully, allowing the mites and viruses to be carried over with the bees into the next season. In general, AKI and DWV titres did not show any notable response to the treatment and steadily increased over the season from April to October. In the untreated control group, titres increased most dramatically. Viral copies were correlated to number of varroa mites. Most colonies that collapsed over the winter had significantly higher AKI and DWV titres in October compared to survivors. Only treated colonies survived the winter. We discuss our results in relation to the varroa-virus model developed by Stephen Martin.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 14, 2013, 02:21:23 pm
Finski,

Thank you for these articles.  Excellent information. I believe the Huang article was one of those that I read.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 14, 2013, 06:25:19 pm
>Belief...or fact?

Since I know thousands of people keeping bees without treatments and they are not experiencing it, it is in my experience, an erroneous belief based on their experience keeping commercial stock on large cell comb.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 14, 2013, 06:51:53 pm
I personally don't know thousands of any people, let alone beekeepers of a very specific stripe.  I think I know, actually know, maybe two dozen beekeepers.  I've shook hands or spoken with less than a hundred, counting all the meetings, fairs, and conferences I attended in Ohio (which is a huge beekeeping state), and except for the ones that have written books or articles I can't honestly say I know which of them keep bees any whichaway.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 14, 2013, 07:25:56 pm
>Belief...or fact?

Since I know thousands of people keeping bees without treatments and they are not experiencing it, it is in my experience, an erroneous belief based on their experience keeping commercial stock on large cell comb.


Michael,

I preface what I write by saying that I've learned more about beekeeping from you and your writings than from any other source. I respect your knowledge and experience a very great deal.  With this said:

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean above. Just to be clear, are you saying that these thousands of people you know who are treatment free, do NOT lose their new colonies three years after they have been established?

Where is the data to prove this?  Or is this anecdotal again?

Again to be clear:Why would you call this an "erroneous belief"?  It's my understanding that this, "three-years-and-it's-over", has been researched and presented.  Edit: My yard was all from swarms and cut outs and I use all foundationless frames.  Does that mean my bees should be doing better because they are all on natural cell? This is not good logic.

I'm neither advocating nor dismissing. I would just like people to back up what they say with factual evidence. If it's "experience" it should be clearly stated. "I know thousands of people who" is not fact. It's hearsay. Where are the controlled experiments?  
Or maybe you only wanted to state your opinion on this issue, which is just fine.


Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 14, 2013, 08:09:30 pm
2sox, out of curiosity, how long did you keep bees treatment free and how did the bees fare in general, both health- and winter survival-wise?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 14, 2013, 08:16:53 pm
2sox, out of curiosity, how long did you keep bees treatment free and how did the bees fare in general, both health- and winter survival-wise?

I never treated my bees with anything since I began.  As I see it now, they could have done MUCH better had I treated.  I'm building up my bee yard with cut outs and swarms this year - as I always have.  I will - without a doubt - be treating all my hives henceforth.  I'll rotate treatments each year.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 02:01:15 am
>Belief...or fact?

Since I know thousands of people keeping bees without treatments


How is possible to know thousands of beekeepers?

Why US universities do not recommend do nothing treatment?


NO wonder that winter losses are so high. That is what researchers are saying.

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 02:08:49 am
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There are mite tolerant bees too in Europe in several countries. Problem is that varroa and colonies' selfprotection destroyes so much brood that colonies are not good as honey producers.


USA has most "mite tolerant queen breeders" but the most huge hive losses in the world. How is that!

Un-treated colonies surviving in France, Varroa - Research 2013
Abstract  
 We document the ability of a population of honey bee colonies to survive in France without Varroa suppression measures. We compared the mortality of collected Varroa surviving bee (VSB) stock with that of miticide-treated Varroa-susceptible colonies. Varroa infestation did not induce mortality in the VSB colonies. Some of the original colonies survived more than 11 years without treatment and the average survival of the experimental colonies was 6.54 ± 0.25 years. Swarming was variable (41.50 ± 9.94%) depending on the year. Honey production was significantly higher (1.7 times) in treated than in VSB colonies. For the first time since Varroa invaded France, our results provide evidence that untreated local honey bee colonies can survive the mite, which may be the basis for integrated Varroa management.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 02:58:31 am
.
WE use Fumidil B against nosema and it rises yield on average 20%.
What about medicine which add yield +70%!!!

If you calculate a profit from that honey volume, it may be many fold compared to untreated. Propably in untreated hives there is no profit and your beekeeping is soon in bankrupt for varroa.

Let's imagine that production cost is 80 money and in untreated hives incomes are 100 money.
According this profit is 9-fold in treated hives. - It means that you earn with 10 hives as much as 90  untreated hives.

Impossible figures but it tells that do nothing treatment does not work in honey business.

.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Michael Bush on May 15, 2013, 07:52:08 am
>I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean above. Just to be clear, are you saying that these thousands of people you know who are treatment free, do NOT lose their new colonies three years after they have been established?

I am on many forums.  My web site gets 4,000 hits a day and those people write me.  Often.  Dozens of emails a day sometimes.  There are 5,352 members on the yahoo Organic Beekeepers group alone.  I am not in correspondence with all of those people, but I am in correspondence with probably a couple of thousand people.  I get dozens of emails everyday from successful treatment free beekeepers.  Do they every lose hives?  Of course.  But most of the colonies are surviving and they are making up their losses with splits or cutouts.

>Where is the data to prove this?  Or is this anecdotal again?

Trying to compile data that would be acceptable to everyone is pretty much impossible.  I have bees to keep, a full time job, horses, grandkids...

>Again to be clear:Why would you call this an "erroneous belief"?  It's my understanding that this, "three-years-and-it's-over", has been researched and presented.

Not on small cell comb.  I know of no study on small cell that has lasted even one year and only one that resembled the protocol that small cell beekeepers are following successfully.

http://www.apinews.com/en/technical-articles/beehive-management/item/download/1343 (http://www.apinews.com/en/technical-articles/beehive-management/item/download/1343)
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/articles/66-small-cell-studies (http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/articles/66-small-cell-studies)

>  Edit: My yard was all from swarms and cut outs and I use all foundationless frames.  Does that mean my bees should be doing better because they are all on natural cell?

In my experience, yes, they should be doing better.  Unfortunately, last winter was hard on everyone, treatment free or not, and I don't think it was Varroa.  I don't see more than a hundred or so dead Varroa on any given bottom board on any of my dead hives.

>This is not good logic.

Here is the logic. 

There are 8,000 microorganism that have been identified in bee colonies that are either beneficial or benign (but fill some niche in the ecosystem):
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm?pf=1)

And many kinds of mites that should be living there:
http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954 (http://www.landesmuseum.at/biophp/arti_det.php?litnr=10335&artinr=13954)

Some of these microorganisms are necessary for the very life of the bees, in particular the ones that ferment the bee bread. 
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives (http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.php/beekeeping/gilliam-archives)

Others of them protect the gut of the bee from Nosema and suppress the propagation of AFB and EFB and these are all killed by antibiotics including fumidil and terramycin, but also organic acids will disrupt that is in their gut.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033188)

Then we have the gestation of the bees on natural cell size.  Huber measured natural cells to be 5.08mm (Huber's New Observations on Bees, Volume II Chapter V pg 455 of the X-Star Publishing edition) and lists the gestation time to be as follows:
"The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering. The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed. In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form. It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state."
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#eggtoadult (http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#eggtoadult)

This is considerably shorter than what is now stated and is consistent with my observations (if not a bit shorter) and this would explain a huge difference in the success of Varroa reproduction on small cell compared to large cell.

>I'm neither advocating nor dismissing. I would just like people to back up what they say with factual evidence. If it's "experience" it should be clearly stated. "I know thousands of people who" is not fact. It's hearsay.

"The bulk of the world’s knowledge is an imaginary construction."--Helen Keller

Yes, it is my experience and the hearsay of thousands of other people.

>Where are the controlled experiments? 

1604 "A Counterblaste to Tobacco" is written by King James I of England and he complains about passive smoking and warns of dangers to the lungs.

Many influential and intelligent people pointed out the dangers over the years, but it was not proven that there was a connection between smoking and lung cancer until 1953 when Dr. Ernst L. Wynder uncovers the first definitive biological link between smoking and cancer. 

When would you stop smoking?  1604?  Or 1953 when controlled experiments finally proved it?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm)

I've been not treating for more than a decade.  Dee Lusby has been not treating since the Tracheal mites back in the 80's.  Plenty of others are not treating and many of them for as long as a decade as well.  No that is not a scientific study.  We are just beekeepers.

"It will be readily appreciated that in the course of many years and daily contact with bees, the professional bee-keeper will of necessity gain a knowledge and insight into the mysterious ways of the honeybee, usually denied to the scientist in the laboratory and the amateur in possession of a few colonies. Indeed, a limited practical experience will inevitably lead to views and conclusions, which are often completely at variance to the findings of a wide practical nature. The professional bee-keeper is at all times compelled to assess things realistically and to keep an open mind in regard to every problem he may be confronted with. He is also forced to base his methods of management on concrete results and must sharply differentiate between essentials and inessentials."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 15, 2013, 08:27:16 am

"It will be readily appreciated that in the course of many years and daily contact with bees, the professional bee-keeper will of necessity gain a knowledge and insight into the mysterious ways of the honeybee, usually denied to the scientist in the laboratory and the amateur in possession of a few colonies. Indeed, a limited practical experience will inevitably lead to views and conclusions, which are often completely at variance to the findings of a wide practical nature. The professional bee-keeper is at all times compelled to assess things realistically and to keep an open mind in regard to every problem he may be confronted with. He is also forced to base his methods of management on concrete results and must sharply differentiate between essentials and inessentials."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam


Good quote.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: D Semple on May 15, 2013, 10:26:12 am


Why US universities do not recommend do nothing treatment?


NO wonder that winter losses are so high. That is what researchers are saying.

.


Fin, we get it. Our losses are going to be higher not treating, but hives that do crash from varroa here do so in the fall and winter after the honey is made.

I've read that a varroa infestation greater than 1% affect production, but I don't see spring varroa numbers that high and my honey production per hive exceeds our local average.


Would I be better off treating, sure I'd have more hives. Have I got TF figured out yet, no.

But, for the bees sake don't you ultimately want folks to learn how to keep bees treatment free again?


Don Semple
Overland Park, KS - USA




 
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: 2Sox on May 15, 2013, 11:25:35 am
Don,

I started beekeeping with the absolute conviction that I would not treat - ever.  I was up to 28 colonies last summer - swarms, cut outs, splits, some left from my original stock.  Many factors contributed to me ending up with sixteen going into winter. Too many to go into here.  I came out of the winter with zero.  Beekeeper error?  I'm sure there was plenty.  Bottom line: Varroa beat the crap out of my bees and out of me.

So what's my next option?  Repeat the same procedure with a tweak here and there hoping for a different outcome?  Nope.  I'm treating.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 15, 2013, 12:00:47 pm
Ideally, all the organisms within and around honey bees coexist in a state of equilibrium.

However, if a colony has a serious nosema infection or is being overrun by mites, obviously something has already upset the "balance".  It might've been something you did.  It might've been something the beekeeper down the road a piece did; it might've been some statistically inevitable waves in the equilibrium.  Either way, something is either in balance or it isn't.  Once a colony's varroa infestation is out of balance, treating won't make it "out of balance times two".
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: D Semple on May 15, 2013, 12:17:16 pm
2Sox,

However you choose to keep bees is fine, you do what is right for you and your area.

I certainly have a lot to learn, but the one great truths of beekeeping I agree with is that all beekeeping is truly local and small changes to location or management style can make all the difference in the world.

I have 4 bee yards, this last winter I had 10% losses in 3 yards, but in one yard I lost 14 out of 17 hives. The area surrounding the one bad yard suffered worse from our drought and had poor fall forage compared to my other yards.

Had I the only one bad yard, I would have assumed everything I was doing wasn't working and would be changing everything.

Good luck with your beekeeping.      Don  

  




Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 12:33:54 pm



Fin, we get it. Our losses are going to be higher not treating, but hives that do crash from varroa here do so in the fall and winter after the honey is made.

I've read that a varroa infestation greater than 1% affect production, but I don't see spring varroa numbers that high and my honey production per hive exceeds our local average.


Would I be better off treating, sure I'd have more hives. Have I got TF figured out yet, no.

But, for the bees sake don't you ultimately want folks to learn how to keep bees treatment free again?  


Don Semple
Overland Park, KS - USA




  

I know so much about varroa that vain to explain.
Big nonsense.
-

I have kept bees 50 years and varroa I have had 32 years.
Sometimes I have met huge disasters.
.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 12:38:12 pm
Ideally, all the organisms within and around honey bees coexist in a state of equilibrium.


Oh my goodness!!!

What a heck that means? If I try to get honey 80 kg per hive and then some one come to say that 40 kg is in a state of equilibrium.
Half to me and half to varroa? Then I am like those "do nothing guys".
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 15, 2013, 04:47:02 pm
Ideally, all the organisms within and around honey bees coexist in a state of equilibrium.


Oh my goodness!!!

What a heck that means?

I mean that the notion that bees will reach a state of harmony with mites and viruses and spores as long as humans don't treat or otherwise interfere is based on an idealistic expectation of the way nature works. 

In real life, it is very rare and always fleeting that anything in nature reaches an ideal state. 

The point of my post was, if a bee has some kind of disease or infestation, it's self-apparent whatever "harmony" or "balance" that's ideally supposed to exist already doesn't.  In that case, treating or other interventions can't possibly ruin any such balance, so there's no harm in doing using them.  Does that make more sense?
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: Finski on May 15, 2013, 06:21:48 pm
 Does that make more sense?

I have studied 6 years biology and ecology in university.

I have read enough about those nature lovers fairytales in beekeeping forums.


.
Title: Re: MAQS Treatment for Swarms
Post by: melliferal on May 15, 2013, 09:04:44 pm
I believe they are mistaken about some things when it comes to the, well, "nature" of nature.  But, I understands what motivates their passion, which is a respect for bees and a general idea of their importance, and that's not so bad all by itself.

However, I think just cavalier dismissal of their thoughts isn't the best way to engage people you want to reach.  A dialogue is always best.