Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: KONASDAD on January 17, 2007, 11:04:08 am
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I have hygenic bees. One of the benefits is they carry out the dead . I inspect these fallen soldiers and have noticed some verroa related issues. Specifically, a few bees are "lace winged" and short abdomened(making up words again!) I treated in fall for mites. Do I wait to later in the spring to treat again, or do it now?
Additionally, when using mineral oil for IPM, do you spray directly on the bees, or leave a few drops on top of the frame bars? should this be done during the summer too?
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>I treated in fall for mites.
With what?
>Do I wait to later in the spring to treat again, or do it now?
With what?
>Additionally, when using mineral oil for IPM, do you spray directly on the bees, or leave a few drops on top of the frame bars?
You can fog it with an insect fogger, you can paint it on the top bars or you can make cords soaked in an emulsion of wax and FGMO. I would NOT put it directly on the bees.
> should this be done during the summer too?
You can fog anytime the bees are flying. You can put oil on the top bars anytime you can open the hive without damage.
But FGMO is not a very effective way to quickly bring down the mite population. It's useful for KEEPING it down, but not deadly enough to the mites to bring the population down in one treatment.
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at this time of the year, could you pick a warmer day and do the powdered sugar thing? would that help until spring when you could use apiguard or something? how bad are the mites? can it just wait until spring? isn't the mite breeding cycle broken in winter with no brood?
interesting stuff and i'd like to hear the answers also.
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Try small cell
kirk-o
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Howdy
I had a bad mite problem but i was told to get some apilife-var from brushy mountain and put it around the brood are and do three treatments and boy did i see a big change in this hive they built up more for winter and stored more then my other hives. I have not see any more dfw bees and they are out before my other two hives are and they don't mine the cold weather.
Tom
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I have hygenic bees. One of the benefits is they carry out the dead . I inspect these fallen soldiers and have noticed some verroa related issues. Specifically, a few bees are "lace winged" and short abdomened(making up words again!) I treated in fall for mites. Do I wait to later in the spring to treat again, or do it now?
Additionally, when using mineral oil for IPM, do you spray directly on the bees, or leave a few drops on top of the frame bars? should this be done during the summer too?
A) If brood are not much you may take them away and destroy. Then give trickling. For next summer you have clean colony.
B) If you have much brood and you want not destroy them, you may do later the Ducthc drone trick http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html
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>at this time of the year, could you pick a warmer day and do the powdered sugar thing?
You could.
> isn't the mite breeding cycle broken in winter with no brood?
Yes, but the mites are still there.
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>at this time of the year, could you pick a warmer day and do the powdered sugar thing?
You could.
You may do everything what others advice. Now it is winter and bees shuold be in peace.
When you look official mite destruction advices, powdered sugar is not on list. What is the fuction? If there are brood, sugar does not help. To pour sugar onto wintering cluster, is good idea? To calculate mites, it does not help.
It seems to me that Sherry Hill has real winter
http://www.wunderground.com/US/NJ/Cherry_Hill.html
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Well, you can't use apilife var unless the temps are high enough, which yours aren't. About the only thing you can do right now is oxalic trickling, but I think you should first find out what your count is before you treat with anything.
You see all kinds of stuff with the dead soldiers outside, I would wait until they are flying and leave them in peace for now.
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, but I think you should first find out what your count is before you treat with anything.
I have controlled mites 20 years and never counted them. You can cout dead mites from bottom if you like.
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To answer a few questions. I treated w/ mite-away. The pollinator I purchased the hive from suggested this. I understand that FGMO is a reduction method, but wanted to know how to apply. The fogger mentioned, please describe this equipment. I may switch to small cell. As for what to treat the hive w/, thats the advice I need. What and when do I do a treatment of any kind? Since I noticed the issue I didn't want to wait w/o asking these questions before its too late.
thanx.
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Finsky, I looked at the drone method that you put in as a link. Very interesting. I would like to obtain that book "the weekend beekeeper", sounds like a good book.
I wonder why the O.A. treatment is not pushed more with beekeepers. It is so simple and when there is no brood present (or in small numbers), as in wintertime? Why don't people just do this? don't get it why. Great day. Cindi
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FINSKY- you amaze me. You looked up my weather! Yes it is cold here today, and we expect soem more cold. This is the first real cold weather we have had. It has been as warm as 62F last week. Thats why my bees have been raisng brood, flying, returning w/ pollen. I think thats why I now have some mite issues too.
Cindi- I think oxalic acid is illegal here in the states. It is available as wood bleach, but I dont know how to mix a batch up and administer. Also, will it ruin screened bottom boards since its anj acid?
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Konasdad. I cannot comment about the legality of the acid, nor if it will ruin the screened bottomboard. Await replies from other members that are outside of my Canada. It is not illegal here, has been approved. Sorry, cannot help. Great day. Cindi
Yes, Finksy is amazing!!! He googled my location and sent me a satellite view of the mountains, deltas and surrounding area. It was very impressive and pretty looking. C.
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Oxalic acid trickling is very new everywhere. Italian researcher developed it eventually.
Trickling is just best, when it is cold outside.
Other methods are as good but they cannot used when it is cold outside. On another hand, trickling makes worse result than mites if you give that during brood.
Wait that weather is continuously better. Mites cannot kill bees at once. Most of mites are under brood cappings. If you find handfull of wingless bees in front of entrance that is a little bit bad situation but not final. I have had that many times.
Thymol based stuff are good during brood time but they need about +15C / +20C temperature by day.
Let bees stay in peace and wait better weathers.
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FINSKY- you amaze me.
I hope not too much. ........But during last 24 hours I have admired Bianca Ryan. HUH, what an artist!. I have listened her many times.
http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/video/x6sfz_amazing-11-year-old%2520
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/241989/bianca_ryan/
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Cindi- I think oxalic acid is illegal here in the states.
Is it any more illegal than using mineral oil?
BTW, from what I understand, it doesn't ruin SBB ;)
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Is it any more illegal than using mineral oil?
How often you drive car too fast or drive against red lights? Is it less dangerous than use oxalic acid?
What is the diffrence with law if you
- spray
- heat or
- trickle oxalic
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I was considering doing an oxalyic trickle, just to help out. I removed one bottom screen, and found a few mites, so I thought about it, but wasn't so sure about the damage of lifting lid and exposing them to cold, disrupting the cluster. I would rather not have to treat with anything closer to spring to avoid hurting brood or queens. Our temps here are -1 and hovering around there most week.
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I was considering doing an oxalyic trickle, just to help out. I removed one bottom screen, and found a few mites, so I thought about it, but wasn't so sure about the damage of lifting lid and exposing them to cold, disrupting the cluster. I would rather not have to treat with anything closer to spring to avoid hurting brood or queens. Our temps here are -1 and hovering around there most week.
Temperature today, 6:00 P.M. -- Abbotsford weather station -- +6 celsius.
Steve, in our fall management course at the Honeybee Centre, John told us that we should do our oxalic trickle ON DECEMBER 1. If many of the beekeepers in our area did this treatment AT THE SAME TIME OR CLOSE then the varroa problem would be minimized in our locality. But it is unlikely that this was followed through with everyone, of course. But that is life.
Oxalic acid is trickled when there is no brood or minimal brood present. It will kill brood. that is why it is done when it is COLD outside.
Finsky has advised to let the bees be in peace during the winter cluster time. I believe that he is right. If you saw mites when you removed the bottom screen, then you probably will definitely be needing to treat. I would think that there are quite a few. But please, do not think that my word is gospel, that is only an impression I get with this dreadful bloodsucker.
If you feel that you want to treat now, I would put the question out there on the forum whether to drizzle over the cluster. The small amount that is drizzled is too small to chill the bees. You only have the inner cover off for less than a minute to drizzle, so I don't think that the bees would be overly chilled.
I would think though, that maybe you could wait for a little longer. As far as I understand the varroa requires brood to live inside the cell to feed. So, the problem I see is that when the brood begins to be laid by the queen (and I think that can be happening pretty soon around here Steve), then these varroa will enter the cell and then the new babies will be born deformed and useless because of the destruction the mite does to the brood in their cell.
I don't know. Why don't you ask Ron, or call John at the Honeybee Centre to see if you should trickle NOW before brood rearing begins. We must ask questions to understand and take care of our bees properly.
Notice our weather today is +6 celsuis? We are not in that cold stuff that we were in even yesterday.
Hope that your question will be answered and I may have offered some insight. Great day. Cindi
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If you feel that you want to treat now, I would put the question out there on the forum whether to drizzle over the cluster. The small amount that is drizzled is too small to chill the bees. You only have the inner cover off for less than a minute to drizzle, so I don't think that the bees would be overly chilled.
hmmmmmmmmm. If situation is this what it is, that there are much brood and it is cold near freezing point, I cannot se any sense in doing just now. To feel better is not a reason to do actions to bees. Of course everybody does what he does but on advice level I am not going to give psychiarist advices.
Mites can be handled later in spring or summer. It is not so fatal thing. People do too much and too complicated things for mites. Mite is not a proplem if you do right things. Half of forum discussions handle mites and it is ten times too much.
Take it easy and kill the mites when it is right time.
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Cindi/Finsky,
Thanks for your opinions. Having read both your posts and gleaned a lot of information which I consider top rate, I value your views/opinions/comments. I feel I may have under treated with oxalyic trickle, having done it only twice this year about a week apart each time. Ron says to do it once, although he knows of a successful beekeeper in the peace river area that does it several times each fall/early winter. I wonder about each particular areas mite load. I have a neighbour whose hives are in the process of dying out from no treatment/management in two years, as you know cindi, and wonder if I should treat again. I think I will. I have screened bottoms and slide out tray homebuilt hive stands and was wondering about soaking pads and simply leaving them on the slide in mite tray below the SBB. I thought it was more than a little weird that both hives pulled full pads of oxalyic acid out without chewing them up. I don't think the bees will be disturbed all that much from cluster with pads below them. The bottom entrance on both hives is tiny, with the upper entrances on the inner cover used to displace moist air. Man there is a lot of vapour visible coming out of the upper entrances. The hives are both still slightly buzzing, dry from being under roof, not insulated, but no more big bee loses, I was worried when our first snow hit and I could see dead bees in the snow, but there is dead bees 20 or so each snowfall, brood cycles expiring. There is a lot of posts on varroa, but for me who has never taken bees through a winter, its helpful to read/watch posts and learn what people do in different locales. Thanks, steve. :-D Here's the hexagon 100% pure Rainforest Apiary beeswax candles I made for christmas gifts this year.(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid223/p1ce12ff5ae38c05e5b9b6f22b3224ff8/eb066306.jpg)
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oxalyic trickle, having done it only twice this year about a week apart each time.
That is harmfull. I don't even try. It takes sveral weeks when mites die for treatment.
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Steve, OK, read this post after I read the other one that I responded to. You need to phone me. I am going to PM you with my phone number. Call when you have a spare moment. I can make myself available anytime to talk about stuff. I am not an expert, but I think that there is a problem with what you are doing.
I don't get what purpose the oxalic acid pads serve that you want to put on the bottomboard. This would serve no purpose whatsover that I can see. The O.A. sugar trickle must be TRICKLED on the bees, sitting a pad soaked on the bottom of the board is redundant. And, there is no need to do the treatment one week apart either. We need to talk. Are you working now? How did that fellow make out that you and your wife were taking to the hospital? Great day. Cindi
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I don't get what purpose the oxalic acid pads serve that you want to put on the bottomboard.
Formic acid pad works but oxalic is not used that way. For formic acid you need summer temperature.
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My mistake! I wrote that post late last night... :oops: I was wondering if an oxalyic trickle or formic acid pads under the SBB would help eliminate a high mite load. I bought some new sticky boards to do a mite drop count, and am watching the weather. Beacause the hives are full south exposure in an insulated hut, they are probably a few degrees warmer than outside air. The temp is supposed to go up this week to 8 or 9. If the temp got close to 12-15 daytime temp I would consider the formic acid pads.
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Sorry to get off topic a little; but I keep hearing about oxylic acid, how effective it is, and how easy it is to apply, but I have never seen it for sale marked as such. Where do you get this stuff?
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Sorry to get off topic a little; but I keep hearing about oxylic acid, how effective it is, and how easy it is to apply, but I have never seen it for sale marked as such. Where do you get this stuff?
Oxalic acid is VERY EFFECTIVE when it is used in the cold times when there is little or no brood present. It is easy to apply. There appears to be two methods. Vapourizing with an aparatus (takes only a moment apparently) and sugar water mixed with oxalic acid trickling, which again only takes a minute per hive. Both are effective and both have advantages, it is a personal preference how they are applied. Applied during COOL temperatures.
I do not know where you get oxalic acid. I received mine from my course instructor. O.A. has been approved for honeybee use in Canada. I know people talk about "approved" but apparently it is important to some I guess. Go on this forum, there is a forum that talks about these products for the bees.
You should "google" O.A. and this will give you good information. There are many sites. Beekeepers worldwide do oxalic treatment in fall and formic acid in spring. Seems to be the chosen times for these two products. They are both found naturally in the nature world. Formic acid, is even found in honey in miniscule amounts. Michael Bush has an excellent site on all stuff relating to bees. I have not checked this particular topic out though but he may have some information there. His site follows:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
Again, it is excellent site and Michael must have spent alot of time working to make it user friendly.
Like Finksy was saying, formic acid is used when the temperatures outside are very warm. The way the formic acid works is:
The pads are generally placed on the outside wall of the hive or attached to the face of the end frame. When the weather (and temperature inside the hive gets very warm) the fumes are released from the pad. The fumes being heavier than air sink to the bottom of the hive, the bees basically get annoyed by the smell and fan like crazy to rid the colony of the stink. This is what is supposed to happen. The fumes are fanned about the hive and it eliminates the varroa mite very quickly. The pads are left in for designated periods of time and the amount of pads are all designated. This I will not go into because there is information on the internet and you need to ascertain your mite levels, or not, depending upon what you want to do. Many do not bother to count mites, that is alot of work. But it does make the amount of formic acid pads required per hive more exact.
Always remember, you must not have any treatment of chemicals in your colonies for a minimum 45 days before the anticipated honeyflow begins, if you are planning on harvesting honey from that colony. THIS IS INTEGRAL to clean honey. There must be no contaminants present in the hive to contaminate honey.
I don't know if this helps, but I hope so.
I am sure that others may have great information too. Great day. Cindi
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My mistake! I wrote that post late last night... :oops: I was wondering if an oxalyic trickle or formic acid pads under the SBB would help eliminate a high mite load. I bought some new sticky boards to do a mite drop count, and am watching the weather. Beacause the hives are full south exposure in an insulated hut, they are probably a few degrees warmer than outside air. The temp is supposed to go up this week to 8 or 9. If the temp got close to 12-15 daytime temp I would consider the formic acid pads.
Steve, forget the formic acid pads for awhile. It is too cold!!!! It won't work and you will be disturbing the bees too much by going in there to install them on the side wall or the face of #10 frame. The bees are probably mostly clustered and it just won't work. March around here would be about the earliest I would even consider it.
Go to this site that I list below if you need further information on the Mite Gone formic acid pads. This fellow is the inventor of the Mite Gone pad, he is an older man that lives in Kelowna and has a pretty good handle on our B.C. weather. He is in South America right now "teaching" about the uses of formic acid worldwide. There is some really good information on formic acid there.
http://www.mitegone.com/
Did you get my PM?
Yes, the O.A. would help with the mite load if it is heavy, but again, I don't think you should do it right now. Wait. I have mailed Ron and will get his opinion on when you should drizzle the acid in our particular climate. He has not corresponded back to me, I think that there are some conferences going on somewhere that he may be involved in. So, just hang tight until I can get a response from a knowledgeable beekeeper of our climate in our particular area. Great day. Cindi
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Oxalic acid is not illegal, it's just not approved for use in hives, in the US, yet. probably will be soon.
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Two days ago I wrote a reply to what is being discussed here - but I erased it. As I usually do, I was waiting for those who with great know-how and authority govern the dispersal of knowledge to those in need or/and willingness to absorb all that those throw before them. That until now has not happened - perhaps not willing to show own cards?
Today I will chance it - cause I don't really care if they, or others, like it or not...
It amazes me to no end, how bluntly this Oxalic stuff goes on?! Not just on this site, but also on all others! Info is freely passed, from under one's fingers, to the next hand, which is anxiously awaiting to punch some buttons on the keyboard!
Last I heard, oxalic use in US is still not approved?!
Hope you are all familiar with a recent roomer that a loss of 35,000 colonies has occurred to one keeper - worlds biggest?! (He was already fined $14,000 for illegal use of that stuff!)
And all this said: Why are so many beeks surprised when they find themselves without bees?
One thing is clear to me - it sure makes for sure and steady business with packages and nucks, come Spring...
I should keep out of this, cause, I do not use chem or any other treatment, so I have no right to knock it... But it don't take no rocket scientist to know that one does not stick poisons in ones hives "just to help out?"
Help out what? Who?
One good rule of thumb is, I believe: Read instructions and follow them to a " T "! They are there for a reason - legal stuff or not!
I would suggest that our beekeeping friends south of the boarder don't have the luxury of having the instruction booklets, cause OK acid there is not for use in hives. Therefore is not sold as such! Most of that stuff that they use is purchased in lumber yards and hardware stores and is used for cleaning purposes and what not!? I Have even read on one of the forums where keepers are buying OK meant for bleaching wood!? I guess it never donned on them that perhaps - that is not the same OK, as used in other parts of the world for fighting varroa!?
Poor bees! Is what I have to say...
And to threat them while they are in a cluster? Treated twice already - in last two weeks and "feel is not enough?"
Perhaps somebody forgot to tell them about that elusive sheet of white-sticky paper and varoa count? And how important that is..?!
How does one "feel" when is enough? Honestly..? I would like to know? In my 52 years with bees, I don't know much and I know it...
If good Lord lets mi keep bees for much longer, I may some day have a need to use OK, or some other gunk!? Who knows. .?
One thing that I know already, though - is that I will never in my lifetime, stick some poison under my bees, when they are in a cluster, even if God himself tels me that "it won't disturb them much...") And especially not, if I by some strange gift of nature - "feel" - that they don't have enough...
I can say more, but this is basically all I wanted to get of my chest...
Now bring out your Louisville sluggers you all. . . . . . .
Regards,
Trot
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Trot, you over react now clearly. Of course you keep your opinions but it has nothing to do with real information.
Of course it is poison but to mites, like other stuffs. That is the idea, but not poison to bees or humans.
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even if God himself tels me that "it won't disturb them much...")
leave God out of it. :-X
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If you meet this kind, say hi from Finsky! It is only a bug and not worth of this discussion.
(http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/science-facilities/images/beemite_3550_1.jpg)
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leave God out of it.
Thank you and don't you worry about Him none.
He and I have a special relationship, something you know absolutely nothing about!
In the sixties I faced devil in the face for a few of years and on the end of each day He safely brought me home - each and every time...
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Wow, talk about drug interventions... :-D Sorry to have started such a row over drugs and bees! My post was all mixed up, due to doing too many things at once, I was posting pictures and writing emails, and reading posts at the same time too early in the morning. For clarity...I put apistan strips in once all the honey was extracted, and left them in for just under a month. Then I did two treatments of formic acid pads over the top bars about a week apart each treatment. Then I waited till it was just before regular freezing temps to do an oxalic trickle application. I bought the oxalic acid from my instructor, although it is available from any pharmacy. The 24 hour mite drop on the sticky boards seems to be ten mites at the moment so according to some of the posts I've read its ok for now. Cindi I did check out mitebgone site and found it very interesting. I had drug names mixed up in my old post so I meant that ron had said he knows of a beekeeper that does several formic acid treatments with great success. So after all of this fuss, the sticky board numbers say no need for a treatment right now anyway. This original post had me wondering if now would be a good time for a mite treatment so as to minimize early spring brood harm. I'll call you cindi, take care. p.s. Right on finsky! HOW did? a little post on bee drugs turn to a post on god? Does that mean this post is born again? :evil:
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something you know absolutely nothing about!
interesting that you know enough about me to make such a statement. don't get your little shorts in a knot about it.
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Ooops!!! Too much information, must process, then maybe comment. Great day. Cindi
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Words can't cut you. Ward only for steel. Fight only steel." -Wyborn Amnell (Sword of Truth)
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you can read, and just maybe....you have a sense of humor. well played.
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Now Trot has said some interesting stuff that needs to be commented on and something that Kathyp said too. First, I am going to comment on Trot's comment and then Kathyp's. This is only my opinion. His words follow:
"cause OK acid there is not for use in hives. Therefore is not sold as such! Most of that stuff that they use is purchased in lumber yards and hardware stores and is used for cleaning purposes and what not!? I Have even read on one of the forums where keepers are buying OK meant for bleaching wood!? I guess it never donned on them that perhaps - that is not the same OK, as used in other parts of the world for fighting varroa!?"
I agree with you Trot about putting deadly chemicals in the hive. But there is a but. There was a post where someone was asking where to get the O.A. and something about hard to find it. So yes, but no.
The form of oxalic acid that we have here that is approved by the organization that governs bee medications in Canada is not bad for bees, it only kills the mites. This chemical would NOT be approved for bee use if it was detrimental in any way. Oxalic acid is found in minute amounts in nature, for example, rhubarb leaves, not to mention many others.
The oxalic acid that is APPROVED for use in bees in Canada is NOT THE SAME AS THE oxalic acid THAT IS USED IN MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. That is the impression I get. The O.A. used for example in the U.S. evidently is used for bleaching wood, cleaning purposes, etc. This WOULD NOT BE THE FORM THAT IS APPROVED FOR USE with bees at all. It must not be used. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I was actually kind of stunned when I read in the post that oxalic acid (in the U.S.) is used for heavy duty cleaning and wood bleaching and the thought that this would be put into a hive scared the heck out of me.
I live close to a beekeeper (I don't personally know this person), who has not used any intervention of any sort to keep her bees healthy. Now Steve has talked with her and it is evident that she is going to lose all her colonies...they are sick..from varroa and probably other things. For whatever reason, she prefers to just let nature take its course. I hopefully live far enough away from her bees that me trying to keep my bees healthy will work and I don't have to contend with her neglect of bees. I feel bad for her neighbours.
Well, as far as I can see. Because of the people like this, that do not keep healthy bees, they bring on disease to neighbouring beeyards. She probably thinks that she is doing her bees a favour by not treating. That is wrong. Her sick bees are probably bringing different illness to any neighbouring colonies, and that is wrong.
I have read posts in some European countries, all beekeepers treat their colonies with "stuff", we'll call it that, AT THE SAME TIME. that way, because they are all treated at the same time, all the disease of bee are kept under better control that way.
Kathyp. YOu said that oxalic acid may be approved for use in hives in the U.S. one day. That may be true, then I wonder if the concentration of the oxalic acid may be different or have a slightly different composition than what can be purchased for the cleaning, wood bleaching, etc. That would be an interesting thing to discover, what any difference there is, if any, to the Canadian approved product.
I hope that I haven't opened an enormous can of worms, but if so, oh well. Great day. Cindi
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It is waste of time to argue with Trot. Let him keep his opinions. Only small cells may save Trots bees.
European Commission text: Oxalic cure and human health - oxalic acid residuals classification means that the substance is evaluated as not dangerous, and no residue limit is needed to protect the consumer.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16374464
http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/Rademacher.html
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Finsky, excellent sites. Thanks. It sounded like the MRL of O.A. has not yet been determined?
Great day. Cindi
P.S. I cannot wait for when I take the Bee Masters Short Course at our SFU University at the end of February. I think that I will be learning so much about important biological aspects of apis meliferra that to me are extremely integral to becoming a good beekeeper.
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Kathyp. YOu said that oxalic acid may be approved for use in hives in the U.S. one day. That may be true, then I wonder if the concentration of the oxalic acid may be different or have a slightly different composition than what can be purchased for the cleaning, wood bleaching, etc. That would be an interesting thing to discover, what any difference there is, if any, to the Canadian approved product.
people use the oxalic acid here. they buy the wood bleach from the hardware store. there was a pretty good article on it in "bee journal" (i think), but in spite of the fact that instructions and dilution were included, i did not find it clear. i kept the article so that i could study it further and do some internet research. seems that it would be pretty easy to make a mistake with the powder.
maybe someone here as used the wood bleach and has some experience?
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Cindi,
I agree with almost all what you brought up, except:
The form of oxalic acid that we have here that is approved by the organization that governs bee medications in Canada is not bad for bees, it only kills the mites. This chemical would NOT be approved for bee use if it was detrimental in any way. Oxalic acid is found in minute amounts in nature, for example, rhubarb leaves, not to mention many others.
Uranium is also plentiful in nature and does no harm... It is when man takes it and manipulates it - there starts but a different story!
OK is only approved and safe for bees in certain concentration and/or certain application style/dose. Exceed this dose/concentration and your bees will be gone. Period!
If one does not pay attention to proper handling/instructions it can be very bad news for human involved - also.
I do not really care what beeks do. It is the education of new and emerging beekeepers that is perhaps in jeopardy and/or lacking? That's what lifts my lid! That is what this forums are intended for! IMO forum is not just a place where one can aspire to have the highest number of posts, or show off, or spread sum bull, just to pass the time of day.
A lot of newbies actually come here to learn - and learn right stuff they must. It is hard enough to give advice, cause of geographical, regional and meteorological differences... Well, I better end this, cause at least two probably already see red by now?!
It is a proven fact that ones a beek adopts a certain way of handling bees and has a at least mediocre success at it - there is nothing in the world, that will sway them from it in the future... And that is wrong!
IMHO, the smart ones will see trough the bull anyway and that is my solace. Cause, no one person can stump ignorance and bullheadedness - all on ones' own. But fight? One can - to no end. . .
Wish you all the best Cindi and I'm sorry, what I hear about your bees...But don't worry, you will do just fine. You have more bee-sense than most people that I met or heard about in a long while...
Keep your head high, you have the right...
Regards,
Trot
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Trot, thank you for the words. I agree with what you said mostly as well. I know what you say about typing and then erasing. I do that quite a bit too, type a sentence and then think, oops, better change that and then retype something different. It is a funny part of human nature to not want to say the wrong thing, most times.
Oxalic acid, the strength that is approved for use in Canada and EU must be carefully, and I mean very carefully measured if one is to use it in the hives.
For one. The most important part that I see is that the bees must not be given over 50 ml MAXIMUM drizzled over the colony, no matter how many frames are covered by bees. AND the drizzle must be given according to the frames of bees occupied. FOR EXAMPLE: ONLY 5 ml per frame covered. So that would mean that if there are only 4 frames of bees, then ABSOLUTELY no more than 20 ml should be drizzled.
I know there is concern that people tend to become complacent about things and may apply too much, perhaps in too much of a hurry. This is actually human nature, I know that. The individual could only put the onus back on themselves if they do. But it would be a shame that the bees fall prey to this.
The second point is important too. Like any kind of chemical, self-protection from the chemical is also important. It is said that one should wear gloves, and face protection in case of any kind of spills. I agree with this. Acids are acids, no matter which way you look at it.
I have curiousity why some places have not approved certain bee medications, whereas other areas have.
Well, my two cents again, for what they are worth. Great day. Cindi
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If you meet this kind, say hi from Finsky! It is only a bug and not worth of this discussion.
(http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/science-facilities/images/beemite_3550_1.jpg)
Finsky, right. That is an absolutely hideous picture. I presume it is the varroa destructor !! (LOL).
I see that is an actual photograph. I am going to look at it more closely. It is probably even more ugly that I ever dreamed possible. Imagine something like that clinging to your body. Yikers!!! Great day.
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Yes nasty little things.
I think this is one on the back of the bees head? I noticed it in august when they were on this joe pye weed.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid223/p26c94c925fa7ff0138662b944de42020/eafbd9ce.jpg)
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Bee C. Now that is a beautiful picture, I do not have Joe Pye Weed growing here, I hear that it is a great bee plant. Considering it is a perennial, I will probably get an established plant from our local nursery, they have great selection. I keep trying to get as many bee plants established here as I can. Wonder if Morgan has something that might interest me? If you talk to her, tell her to give me a call one day, give her my phone number, that is OK, not a secret. Since I don't operate the nursery anymore, I am missing some of my old and devoted clients, she was one that came for years and years. Too bad the thing on Texada Island didn't work out for her. Did she ever tell you about her escapades there? Ask her, it is a very interesting story. I bet she would be a great candidate for becoming a beekeeper.
Ya, that is the varroa for sure, isn't it an ugly little thing. Man, that bug bugs me.
"Joe-Pye Weed or Trumpetweed (Eupatorium fistulosum) is a flowering plant in the family Asteraceae, native to eastern North America, in southeast Canada and throughout the eastern and central United States. It is a herbaceous perennial plant growing to 1.5-3 m (5-10 feet) tall, found in moist, rich soil alongside ditches and marshes, or in wet forests. It flowers from mid-summer to the first frosts, makes an attractive backdrop in garden plots, and is very attractive to butterflies, bees, and other nectar-feeding insects"
Great day. Cindi
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Thanx for input. I'll wait until its warmer. O.A. is on;y available as wood bleach here in the states. Is this the same acid, or is it diff't? American bee Journal does a long article about O.A. an referances wood bleach. They do not advise as to whether they are the same as sold for use w/ bees.
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my collegue Walter Haefeker, German Association of Professional Beekeepers, wishes me to inform you about the German bee monitoring.
Greetings, Klaus
After 2 years of cooperation the German Association of Professional Beekeepers – DBIB is now about to withdraw from the bee monitoring project. The decisive factor behind this decision is that despite repeated attempts by the DBIB, the German chemical industry refuses to have the investigations cover plant protection products to the same extent as other factors.
After several beekeepers' representatives expressed their astonishment at this approach, the issue was resolved by the company Bayer itself carrying out laboratory investigations - which all produced no finding.
In the second year the German chemical industry completely did away with any investigations regarding this issue. Instead, it was decided that the samples should be frozen, and that these should then only be investigated for plant protection product residues when required.
This meant that this issue had been sidelined. Instead, in the project budget big cuts were made regarding funding for all possible investigations into illnesses afflicting bees.
Consequently a budget item for independent laboratory investigations on plant protection products no longer existed!
There was also no research work to determine which plant protection products are deployed in the immediate vicinity of honey bee colonies. Hence, it can easily be said that targeted investigations of specific plant protection products are not possible.
And this allowed one to happily concentrate on the most important part of the project: the press work.
Here really thorough work was done. Here nothing was sidelined. The doors of the Federal Press Conference were suddenly wide open. The press jungle was full of life. Lectures were delivered. Deutschlandfunk started reporting even while the project members were still engaged in a meeting. Deutschlandfunk even reported that the monitoring had shown that genetic engineering posed no danger to beekeeping, even though this was not even the subject of the investigations.
But if one uses money to pacify the beekeeping front, one naturally has to try and maximise the PR benefit.
We have tried to obtain a recording of the broadcast.
Deutschlandfunk claims it does not have a recording because the broadcast was produced as an external production commissioned by the German Farmers' Association. The German Farmers' Association claims it knows nothing about this.
The recording is still missing today!
The DBIB once again expressed its criticism at the so-called "round table" on 9th November. This only resulted in this not even being mentioned in the records drawn up by the German Farmers' Association.
What one does not want to accept is simply not mentioned. All this has fuelled our mistrust, and it raises the suspicion that the bee monitoring was only intended to keep beekeepers quiet and to give the chemical industry time to continue unhindered in using the plant protection products that were the focus of criticism.
And there are enough reasons for this.
With regard to the chemical industry one can expect that no money is spent which does not indirectly or directly contribute towards the company's profit. Company law specifically forbids corporate groups carrying out charitable operations. In such a case the shareholders would be able to sue the board of directors for the incorrect use of funds. But during the course of the project there were no complaints about it being financed. Every suggestion that substances which were dangerous for bees should be treated in the same way as they are in France can be brushed off by referring to the ongoing investigations. This secures millions in sales over the years. Here it is certainly worthwhile investing some petty cash.
Against this background it is hardly surprising how easy it is to see through the whole thing if the representative of the chemical industry has already prepared the press statement for the round table on his laptop even before the meeting has actually taken place, and presents this press statement as a general absolution for the financial backers, presents many other causes and points to very good honey harvests this year, without a single word about the reservations expressed by the representatives of the beekeepers at the "round table".
When the issue of new substances for the treatment of rape seeds was raised, another objective of the round table was clearly revealed.
The representative of Syngenta was annoyed that the beekeepers had directly contacted the respective responsible authorities regard the issue of a lack of licences for ELADO. They argued that such issues should be resolved at the "round table". Otherwise he would not be able to justify to his company the provision of funding for the monitoring project.
With regard to the bee institutes this raises the question of why everything was accepted without any criticism?
Firstly for the institutes the bee monitoring means that additional funding is available.
Naturally the suspicion that this project is simply one purely financed by the chemical industry as a favour is very upsetting for the participating institutes.
Therefore it is pointed out that the monitoring programme is not just financed by the chemical industry, but that the institutes now also make a roughly equal contribution through their own work.
However, the institutions do not carry out this work in their spare time but, instead with employees and resources that are actually financed from other sources and which were earmarked for other purposes.
Here it is justifiable to ask what proportion of the EU financial support for beekeepers the institutions received within the framework of EU regulation no. 1221, and why the beekeepers do not receive this money? And if the beekeepers demand that plant protection products should be completely included in investigations, why is this money not spent for this purpose?
It is an artificial strategy on the part of the chemical industry to settle costs for the project annually instead of providing the funding at the beginning of the project.
This approach enables the project to be abandoned at any time should it, for instance, produce undesirable results. This generates a conflict of interests between the participating institutions: if there are any unwanted results the money could possibly no longer be available. What remains here is a "bad aftertaste".
The institutions also regard it as normal for the next press campaigns and series of lectures to be planned with a great effort and military precision although this project has up to now produced very little that could justify such a fuss. However, one has to make a big fuss again every year, because this is the perfect way to distract from the original issue at stake.
The accusation levelled at the institutions is not that they manipulate results but that they do not vehemently support the beekeepers and demand that there is a balanced investigation in all directions, which also includes plant protection products.
The institutions proudly report that the German project is really respected in Europe. Colleagues from other countries would say it would not be possible to do this sort of thing with the beekeepers' associations in France.
From discussions with French beekeepers we know how the monitoring is really regarded there. At a meeting of various European beekeepers' associations in Paris to address the issue of plant protection products, which COPA wanted to prevent, our colleagues politely but forcefully said the following to us:
"Only in Germany are the beekeepers naive enough to get involved with this PR strategy of the chemical industry. You not only make yourselves a laughing stock, but you also weaken the position of beekeepers in other EU countries."
The worries of our European colleagues are justified. The Europeanisation of the German bee monitoring is already being advanced, because the results of this project are also to be used for getting plant protection products out of the firing line in other countries. We are certainly not doing our European colleagues any favours if we use ourselves as a fig leaf for a project whose structure does not guarantee result-oriented research.
Naturally we beekeepers should be always interested in real monitoring being carried out. As mentioned above, our association was actually the driving force behind the initiative for monitoring. We must continue to support a project that is exclusively financed by public funding, so that plausible results are possible. We must ensure that the bee institutes are released from this serious conflict of interests and are able to work independently.
We are not intending to have one or another plant protection product banned. Our goal must be to learn what we ourselves can do better in the way we operate and what people in the cultural landscape – where our bees live and should be able to survive – can do better in order that the many factors which make our bees increasingly weak can gradually be improved in a step-by-step approach.
Although a far-reaching reform of the licensing procedures for plant protection products is not the only issue at stake, it is an important one.
In its current form the German bee monitoring does not help us any further here, but is instead designed to hinder us. We have watched it for two years. Many members of our association were involved in it. We showed our good will and displayed a great amount of trust in advance, because although we had considerable doubts about it we urged our members to participate. Perhaps one thing that we could criticise ourselves for is the fact that we waited so long before underlining our position in this way.
Unfortunately we have not been able to keep the overwhelming influence of the chemical industry within reasonable limits. In the interests of all beekeepers we will therefore have to recommend our members to terminate their participation in this project if our demands, which have been known for a while, are not implemented at long last.
Therefore we would hereby like to reiterate our list of demands:
In investigating the causes all possible factors should be treated in the same way. If we beekeepers do something wrong we want to recognise this, so that we can improve our ways of operating. If there are new pathogens, we want to find them and learn how to control them. If plant protection products weaken our bees, we want to know this and wish to develop a strategy to minimise damage together with chemical industry, the German Farmers' Association and the authorities. Here we are aware that plant protection products are required in farming, but we would also like to point out that organic farming illustrates that it cannot be argued that there is always no alternative to using the approach adopted by the chemical industry.
If it is regarded as worthwhile to record the whole spectrum of possible bee illnesses on a routine basis, this also has to apply to examining the presence of the most important plant protection products. If it is regarded as worthwhile to record the whole spectrum of possible bee illnesses on a routine basis, this also has to apply to examining the presence of the most important plant protection products.
Numerous scientific works have illustrated that an impairment of the efficiency of the bees occurs long before the adult bees die. If the flying bees of a bee colony are disoriented, this means that one of the functions crucial to their survival is disrupted. The sublethal effect can already be observed when there are concentrations by which the presence of the respective plant protection product can be proved but not quantified. In the investigations carried out by Bayer results which do not reach the quantifiable level are not taken into consideration. However, all results for which the presence of specific plant protection products can be proved should be taken into account in aetiology.
The investigations must be carried out using the analysis methods which currently have the lowest possible levels for proving and quantifying.
Manufacturers of plant protection products have a conflict of interests, and therefore should not be regarded as an independent investigation laboratory. In the monitoring project sufficient resources must be provided to allow investigations of plant protection products by an independent laboratory which we trust.
In the investigation of the honey bee colonies the agricultural environment must also be examined to determine the type of cultures and plant protection methods which are used.
Transparency: an approved report should be published on the Internet and in the press. An offensive PR campaign going beyond such publications is then only worthwhile if it is aimed at communicating results that can be practically implemented on a broad basis. This was not the case in the past.
The fact that this project is being carried out should not be allowed to delay the implementation of improvement possibilities that we are already aware of. If – as the chemical industry likes to claim – varroa mites are the main reason why the bees are dying, then it is incomprehensible why:
a) we don't have any support for the licensing of 85% formic acid,
b) after a long struggle and a considerable delay only a method using oxalic acid treatment is allowed,
c) the use of varroosis treatments, which involves the problem of residues accumulating and resistance building up, is still supported,
d) inflated bureaucracy in the application of European law on animal medicines for beekeeping is not prevented,
e) specialist consultants' training for beekeepers has to be restricted to outdated methods because other methods are not authorised.
If the chemical industry is really convinced that the problem here is caused by varroa, then it would be advisable to support the beekeepers' approach concerning the question of substances for varroa treatment.
There has also been no progress regarding the methods used in the investigations for determining the dangers for bees during the licensing process for plant protection products.
The figures contained in the statistics of the Biologische Bundesanstalt für Land- und Forstwirtschaft (Federal Biological Research Centre for Agriculture and Forestry – BBA) on the extent of the damage to bees in Germany only appear to show a decrease because there is an increase in undetected cases.
As already pointed out, the above demands are certainly not new for the organisers of the monitoring project. Unfortunately they were not implemented over the past two years to win the trust of beekeepers.
Moreover, plenty of time has been wasted in addressing the issues which we are really interested in, and money has been diverted to bee monitoring. We therefore recommend that you act according to the principle of Erich Kästner:
"Never sink so low that you will even drink the mess they pull you through!"
Walter Haefeker, German Association of Professional Beekeepers
[ January 20, 2007, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Klaus Maresch ]
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Klaus Maresch
Drachenfelsstraße 92
D-53639 Koenigswinter
http://www.honighaeuschen.de
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If weather continues his way maybe brood will vanish from hives . At least they cannot feed many larvae.
http://www.wunderground.com/US/NJ/Cherry_Hill.html
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I did not get what is the idea of Klaus Maresch's letter. What is backgroud and what is the meaning?
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If weather continues his way maybe brood will vanish from hives . At least they cannot feed many larvae.
http://www.wunderground.com/US/NJ/Cherry_Hill.html
Yes we now have winter Finsky. Are you suggesting I do soemthing while they are clustered? I thought not? As mentioned before, I just want to educate myself to the optionsd and timing of those options. I am hoping i dont lose honey supers by needing to medicate during a flow and wnat to be done w/ treatments before the early flow is all.
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Therefore we would hereby like to reiterate our list of demands
how interesting
can you give us the short version? that seemed very convoluted.
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Therefore we would hereby like to reiterate our list of demands
how interesting
can you give us the short version? that seemed very convoluted.
I agree, it was a difficult read, especially with the formatting. The jist of what I read was the chemical companies had stonewalled the progress of identifying problems that develop over the use of their products with regards to bees (Trot, correct me if I'm wrong or misguiding). Fascinating, to see the same bs going on in another country that goes on here all the time. Fascinating and disheartening. Big business is everywhere :roll:
Don't those idiots realize if they kill the bees the plants will die, too?
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I agree, it is a bit difficult to get the meaning. Reinbeau you got it right on.
For those who follow the fight against the chem's it is not so hard, cause they already know the course.
Basically, German Association of Professional Beekeepers were partners in the research and various study schemes. It made for great PR ... (naively thinking of better chance in determining what goes and what doesn't in the world of poisons) But soon, they too, had realized that their bees were sick and dying than that partnership now turned against them. They were only pawns in a game...
Most, if not all, of the findings were lost or are off limit to public eye! When seeking compensation for lost stock? Or trying to determine the cause - chem companies are not at fault. One can not prove it, one way - or the other. The blame is, as always, thrown on varroa! Or/and, beekeepers self medicating!? Like it or not!
(Reason for this post was to see the other side of the coin - to posted report about German research posted a few days back.)
The only EU country which has successfully litigated this issue is France, where they outlawed the use of certain chems' which were suspected of doing harm.(Proven by impartial research) Wouldn't you know - their problems suddenly disappeared! (Varroa stayed though...)
It is the same scenario with recent finding in Alberta, Canada where they found that a common medicine clears-up, some of the toughest cancers, like lung and brain - to name just two... The use on humans will most likely never see the light of day!
Cause?
It is not something which some big corporation has in its domain. No patent/copyright exists, so nobody makes no money. 100 million is needed to licence it. . .
Nobody is willing to pay the bill! No return. . . .(Bill Gates, Warren Buffet - take note!)
Not likely...
So, people will continue to die needlessly...
Same has happened 3 times previously. Life saving drugs have not reached the market, cause they could cut into someones' profits.
When they can juggle with human lives, at will? You think, that the rules of the game would change, when coming to bees? ? ?
Just something to think about, before casting stones. . . .
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KONASDAD has some bugs in his hives, and now we forgot him and started kick upside down European chemical industry -
Now I got the idea. Wait to evening. I must sell my stocks first.
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Sometimes going off topic is fun. Yes I still have some indicia[/i] of mites and want to be prepared for spring. Like everyone else, I want big, healthy, and productive hives which dont swarm. I know, a lot to ask. What should I treat w/ and when?
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with a tbh has any one had to treat the hive for mites.or any of the other pests.
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with a tbh has any one had to treat the hive for mites.or any of the other pests.
I don't know what you mean but top bar hives have same diseases like foundation hives.
Frame bars have developed 150 years ago and diseases have been thousands of years in bees. Bees survive best under human care.
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diseases have been thousands of years in bees. Bees survive best under human care.
:shock: :? :? :?
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Sometimes going off topic is fun. Yes I still have some indicia[/i] of mites and want to be prepared for spring. Like everyone else, I want big, healthy, and productive hives which dont swarm. I know, a lot to ask. What should I treat w/ and when?
KONASDAD; To rid yourself of the in hive pests is very simple. Use a 25% vinegar vapor. Vaporize each colony for 30 saconds. This method can be used anytime that the bee cluster is broken. It can be used while collecting honey, while rearing brood, anytime. I know it works in my area in S C so I know it will work in yours.
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Sometimes going off topic is fun. Yes I still have some indicia[/i] of mites and want to be prepared for spring. Like everyone else, I want big, healthy, and productive hives which dont swarm. I know, a lot to ask. What should I treat w/ and when?
KONASDAD; To rid yourself of the in hive pests is very simple. Use a 25% vinegar vapor. Vaporize each colony for 30 saconds. This method can be used anytime that the bee cluster is broken. It can be used while collecting honey, while rearing brood, anytime. I know it works in my area in S C so I know it will work in yours.
That honestly sounds too good to be true. But if it works for you, there surely must be some truth for sure. Great day. Cindi
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Cindy; It not only works for me it also works for other beekeepers that use this method to control varroa and small hive beetle. Yes, it does sound too good to be true, but it does work and very good I may add. cef
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How do you vaporize vinegar? And 25% solution? W/ water? Also, not all vinegars are alike. Apple, white, and what acididty content if they differ? Does it kill the mite or is it part of Integrated Pest mangement(IPM) like mineral oil? just a few questions. Thanx!
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have quite the same questions a KONASDAD. the strongest vinegar i have seen is the one for making pickles, i think it's 9%, and still, even though it's acetic acid...it's acid? are you sure it isn't harmful?. but the main questions are like KONASDAD. how to make 25% vinegar. how to vapourize it. oh, and that 25%, this is the content of acetic acid in the vinegar, was i right?
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Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:13:49 +0100
From: "Olda Vancata" <olda.vancata@...>
Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Illegal use of pesticide in bee hives
Oxalic acid is hurting (weakening) bees and open a gate for
secondary diseases ( for instance - virus).
Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460
DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004037
Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or
formic acid Ales Gregorca, Azra Pogacnika and Ivor D. Bowenb
a Veterinary Faculty of the University of Ljubljana, Gerbiceva 60,
1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia
b Cardiff School of Biosciences, Preclinical Building, Cardiff
University, PO Box 911, Cardiff, CF10 3US, UK
Abstract - The effects of oxalic (OA) and formic acids (FA) on
honeybee larvae in colonies were assessed and evaluated. Cell death
was detected by the TUNEL technique for DNA labelling. In 3- and 5-
day-old larvae exposed to OA, cell death was found in 25% of midgut
epithelial cells 5 h after the treatment, using an "In situ cell
death detection kit, AP" (Roche). The level of cell death increased
to 70% by the 21st hour and the morphology of the epithelium remained
unchanged. Fifty hours after the application, cell death was
established in 18% of the epithelial cells of the 3-day-old larvae
and had increased to 82% in the 5-day-old larvae. A "DeadEnd"
apoptosis detection kit (Promega) showed sporadic cell death mainly
in the larval fat body 5 h after treatment. Twenty-one hours after
the OA application cell death was found in 4% of the larval midgut
epithelial cells. Evaporated formic acid induced extensive apoptotic
cell death in the peripheral, cuticular and subcuticular tissues that
preceded the cell death of the entire larval body.
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Konasdad; To vaporize the vinegar I have a machine called (cyclone) It has a heat chamber and a blower. The cyclone comes in both 110 and 220 voltage. When you are at your home yard chances are you can use your house electric power. When out in the field you will need a generator. you pour the vinegar into the heat chamber through its metering funnel. Its heated and then circulated through the bee colony by the blower through a 3 inch flexible hose attached to the hive entrance. the hose is simular to that of an electric clothes dryer. I buy my vinegar concentrate (100% acetic acid)from the company that manufacures the cyclone this way I know i'm getting quality vinegar.We know that vinegar kills bacteria and that vinegar is used in the food industry as a preservative. To get a 25% mixture, Mix 1 part of vinegar cncentrate to 3 parts water this mixture will NOT harm the bees or the beekeeper. thanks for inquiring. charlie
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i got on a web site called back yard hive .com they say their bees dont have health issues because tbh makes their bees less stressed so their immunity is much stronger.
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Charlie, is there a website for the cyclone. I would like to see more information about this device. Sounds interesting. Great day. Cindi
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I hope that you do not try on hives all those methods what you get in mind. They are tens.
In these discussions are mentioned methods which are not under common control researches. Vinegar is a such.
I wonder where all these ideas will lead us.
Treatments' purpose is to kill mites. There is narrow area between mite and bee killing, and brood killing.
I am going to stay inside area "officially controlled knowledge". That is more than enough for one beekeeper.
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Finsky. Understood. I am on quest for knowledge. That is all. No implementation of any sort until I form perfected methods.
When I attend the Bee Masters Course at our university I will have the teachings of individuals that know the beekeeping conditions in our southwestern part of British Columbia. They will teach us the best ways to combat bee diseases, etc., and these will undoubtedly be the least invasive techniques to the health of the honeybee.
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Konasdad; To vaporize the vinegar I have a machine called (cyclone) It has a heat chamber and a blower. The cyclone comes in both 110 and 220 voltage. When you are at your home yard chances are you can use your house electric power. When out in the field you will need a generator. you pour the vinegar into the heat chamber through its metering funnel. Its heated and then circulated through the bee colony by the blower through a 3 inch flexible hose attached to the hive entrance. the hose is simular to that of an electric clothes dryer. I buy my vinegar concentrate (100% acetic acid)from the company that manufacures the cyclone this way I know i'm getting quality vinegar.We know that vinegar kills bacteria and that vinegar is used in the food industry as a preservative. To get a 25% mixture, Mix 1 part of vinegar cncentrate to 3 parts water this mixture will NOT harm the bees or the beekeeper. thanks for inquiring. charlie
will this affect honey that might be in the hive at that time?
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Sean; Circulating a 25% vinegar vapor through a honey bee colony has no negative affect on the bees, brood or honey. That is why this system is so effective. It can be used anytime there is a need. In fact, I know of no other treatment for varroa, small hive beetle or any in hive problems other than vinegar vapor that can be used while brood rearing or collecting of surplus honey. It also does not put the beekeeper in danger. Charlie
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other than a vaporizer, is there any other method of delivery? whether home-made or otherwise I can't seem to get my hands on one.
Thanks for the info
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sounds almost too good to be true. so this vapourizing tool, it's the same as for oxalic acid, right?
but..if it's acetic acid, it's acid, it aint vinegar if you look at it from a different perspective.
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sean; No other method of delivery that i'm aware of. where have you been looking to find one? Charlie
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mici; this vaporizer has nothing to do with oxalic acid, as oxalic acid is not approved for use in honey bee colonies in this country (U.S.A.) Its only made to vaporize vinegar, nothing else.
Charlie
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thanks for replying but it might have nothing to do with it, it's just that..probably the same thing is sold under the name "oxalic acid vapourizer" here in Europe, just wondered if you could confirm this.
ok so to make this gadget at home, one would need....
a one meter hose-7mm a lab veil or test tube and a small burner, maybe a zippo would do the trick i'll add a picture od my idea since i have the time:D
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9922/vaporizervs7.th.jpg) (http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vaporizervs7.jpg)
should be done in the night time and i think one would need an assistant :-D
what you guys think?
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I hope that you do not try on hives all those methods what you get in mind. They are tens.
In these discussions are mentioned methods which are not under common control researches. Vinegar is a such.
I wonder where all these ideas will lead us.
Treatments' purpose is to kill mites. There is narrow area between mite and bee killing, and brood killing.
I am going to stay inside area "officially controlled knowledge". That is more than enough for one beekeeper.
Finsky; Are you saying that your country has not researched vinegar as a method to control varroa mites Charlie
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Is there research anywhere? If so where?
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Is there research anywhere? If so where?
Jerrymac; Research was done on the vinegar vaporizer in the mid 1980s by the manufacturer prior to it being placed on the market in 1989. It is manufactured in Altoona Iowa. Charlie
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So you have nothing (a web page link) to post here???
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sean; No other method of delivery that i'm aware of. where have you been looking to find one? Charlie
None of the bee supply stores i have checkd have it, and there arent a lot. been thinking if there is a way to make a simple one but haven't figured it out as yet.
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I've seen the adds in Bee Culture and ABJ. Very interesting topic. The next obvious question, Are there any other beeks using this method and what are there observations and thoughts? I like info backed up w/ research. But that is not always needed. This might be one of those times.
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sean; No other method of delivery that i'm aware of. where have you been looking to find one? Charlie
None of the bee supply stores i have checkd have it, and there arent a lot. been thinking if there is a way to make a simple one but haven't figured it out as yet.
sean, how could you miss the picture i uploaded in my previous reply? or you just have serious doubts about efficency of "my gadget"
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sean; No other method of delivery that i'm aware of. where have you been looking to find one? Charlie
None of the bee supply stores i have checkd have it, and there arent a lot. been thinking if there is a way to make a simple one but haven't figured it out as yet.
sean, how could you miss the picture i uploaded in my previous reply? or you just have serious doubts about efficency of "my gadget"
Oops actuially did over look the diagram. It does look workable and i shall be trying it. Will post a review on it as well.
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So you have nothing (a web page link) to post here???
Jerrymac; I probably should have been more clear in my answer to your question. In the mid 1980s the manufacturer of the cyclone vinegar vaporizer conducted research to determine what affect vaporized vinegar,circulated through the bee colony would have on the varroa mite, tracheal mite and other in hive pests. This research was done in Altoona Iowa. This was done prior to marketing the machine in 1989. Charlie
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mici; this vaporizer has nothing to do with oxalic acid, as oxalic acid is not approved for use in honey bee colonies in this country (U.S.A.) Its only made to vaporize vinegar, nothing else.
Charlie
After i vaporize the hive Oops, I mean use the vaporizer what happens to the beetles. Do they just drop dead and the bees carry them out or what? Will be trying it out on 1 hive this weekend