foundationless frame

[ivashka]

I have two nucs with 5 frames full with the brood, i'm thinking in the spring to switch them to 10 frame hive and I want to put foundationless frame.  Do you think this is a good idea to go with foundationless frame? 

[Kathyp]

there was just a long conversation on foundationless.  try a search or maybe someone will remember the thread.

[Bigeddie]

I have two nucs with 5 frames full with the brood, i'm thinking in the spring to switch them to 10 frame hive and I want to put foundationless frame.  Do you think this is a good idea to go with foundationless frame? 

I think so. There was a post under natural & organic beekeeping but no one gave any tips as to how it would work or anything special one should do on the switch. I wanted to know about starting completely foundationless from packages and got responce from one person. I'm going to start 12 colonys this way in spring and was looking for a little advice from some one who has done this before. I guess I'm on my own on this venture. I have put bare frames in colonies  with foundation and it seemed to work fine. Just a bit nervous with this many hives but I'll make it work somehow.
I think you will have to start out with your frames of brood and as they hatch move them to the outside of the box and then out completely assuming your present frames have foundation in them.

Good luck and hope you can get some responce to your question.



Eddie

[Michael Bush]

Obviously, I think it's a good idea...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

[slaphead]

We set up three foundationless hives this spring from packages.  One was started using a 10 frame deep, the other two with 8-frame medium boxes.  All three grew quickly, drawing out 3 boxes of frames by September.  Here is a brief description of what we did:

For the brood area, grooved top bar frames were narrowed to 1 1/4" wide (from 1 3/8") by taking 1/16" off each side using a table saw.  A 3/4" wide slice of pine was then glued into the groove to act as a comb guide.  This strip of pine stretched across the length of the frame between the two side bars.

The 10 frame box was set up with 11 of the 1 1/4" wide frames while the  8-frame boxes were set up with 9 of the 1 1/4" frames.

Each box was set up on an IPM bottom board with the slider in place and the opening set to an inch.  Be warned if you leave the slider open during the install and immediately after it many bees will end up hanging from the bottom, thinking the entrance is down there.  Unfortunately many of these confused bees will end up starving (yes I made this mistake the first time).

Immediately prior to installation of the package, the comb guides on the central 6 frames were sprayed with 1:1 sugar syrup containing a drop of lemon oil.  The central 3 frames were then removed, the queen cage lowered into the resulting hole and then attached to a frame.  The removed frames were then replaced and the package inverted over the open hive about a foot above the frames to pour the bees onto the frames.  No smoke was used, though we did spray the bees with 1:1 syrup about 15 minutes before we poured them onto the frames.

The bees migrated down into the hives in about 30 minutes and we placed the package cages next to the entrances to their respective hives so the stranglers had a chance to find their way home.

Once the bees had migrated down to the point we could safely place on the inner cover we did.  We then placed a mason jar feeder board (12 quart jars per load) on each hive and surrounded that with a deep (or two mediums) and finally placed the lid on top with a 1/4" wide spacer at the back to prop it up for a bit of ventilation.  Our hives averaged 2 to 3 gallons of 1:1 syrup per 5 days for the first month or so.

We checked the queen cages after three days and in one case had to manually release a queen.  In all three hives we found small, heart shaped combs on the central 3 or 4 frames after 3 days.  One hive built from the back, one from the front and one from the middle! All of them faithfully followed the comb guides but the combs were built with a slight wave along their length.  One frame ended up with 2 combs attached to it when I failed to push the frames together correctly.  I decided to leave it as the bees had built it.  It took them about a month to draw out all the frames in their first box with one hive completed this task in 3 weeks while the slowest took more like 5 weeks.  We made the mistake of feeding them continuously and one hive swarmed in late May.  Next time we'll feed alternate weeks in an attempt to prevent the nest becoming honey bound.  The 10-frame hive ended up with a 2 deep + 1 medium brood nest while the two 8-frame hives have 4 medium brood nests.  We stopped feeding in mid June.

Hope this helps a bit.

SH

[slaphead]

To promote migration up into the next box we moved a drawn frame up and placed it in the center of the new box.  This made a huge difference. 

[annette]

I started my hives 4 years ago with plastic foundation.  I wanted to go foundationless and read Michael Bush's website and posted here on the forum.  All I did was introduce the foundationless frames in between my other frames and kept rotating the plastic ones out.  Now the hives are all foundationless and no problems whatsoever.

The only thing mentioned here on this forum and from my own experience is, when you start with a super of all foundationless frames you need to have at least one frame of drawn out comb in the middle of the super for them to use as a reference point. From then on they usually draw out all the other frames nice and straight.  At least this has been my experience.

Good luck
annette

[jclark96]

The one frame on drawn comb in a new box is a must. I overlooked this step and had to cut out three weeks of bur comb. Also the new comb isn't as tough as wired foundation or plastic, so be carefull moving your hives and inspecting frames.

[Bigeddie]

Thanks everyone! This is what I was looking for.

[Joelel]

I have two nucs with 5 frames full with the brood, i'm thinking in the spring to switch them to 10 frame hive and I want to put foundationless frame.  Do you think this is a good idea to go with foundationless frame? 

Yes,there are different size bees,they need to build the size cells for their size. It's best to put a starter strip in each frame.

[Kathyp]

one sheet of foundation will work if you don't have a drawn frame.

[Natalie]

Ivashka,
I think foundationless has alot of benefits, good for the bees since they can build whatever size cells they want, you won't be using wax foundation that has been rendered from the wax other beekeepers have sent in and you have no idea what chemcals are in that wax, actually they do know that there are plenty of chemicals left in the wax after rendering and its good for you because its pretty easy to deal with .
You can also have some nice cut comb if you want, I had beautiful, nice white comb honey that I just laid out, punched with a cutter and put in boxes.
People love it.
The only drawback for some people, I do not feel its a drawback at all but some will tell you that you are wasting all that wax by having to do crush and strain and making the bees work so hard by making more wax :roll:
Well, I fell that is what bees do and I personally am not worried about it but I am also not out to get the most honey in the world either.
Some people do skip the cursh and strain method of harvesting honey and put the foundationless frames in an extractor and they are successful at it.
I am not sure what precautions they take, if any to make sure the combs don't break other than maybe making sure the comb is hardened and not brand new.

    Big Eddie, I would not worry about how many hives you have to start on foundationless, whether its one or 20 its pretty easy.
I started 11 on foundationless this past spring and I had no problems to speak of.
I did it two ways, with a package I just dumped in on empty bars -no starter strips just bare wood and I have also installed nucs and moved the frames out as someone else described how to do in this thread.
I only had one that drew one wavy comb and I pulled it out and cut it off and put the bar right back in but made sure it was between two straight combs and they drew it out again and this time is was straight.
I think you will find it very easy and you never have to worry about buying or installing foundation.
I used topbars that were cut at an angle so I didn't even have to deal with the starter strips either, I also did not wax the bar and the bees took to all of them no problem.

[Bigeddie]

Natalie, thanks for the encouragement!  I did extract some foundationless mediums and didn't have any problems but I have a hand crank job and went slower than normal.
   Did you just hang the queen cage from one of the middle top bars?

Eddie

[Natalie]

Yup thats how I did it. Just be sure to check in a couple of days that she has been released so you can pull the empty cage out before they build comb around it.
I am so glad that its going well for you, its good that you gave it a try. Alot of people think about doing it but get nervous that it won't work out and stick to the foundation.
I met a few people like that at the bee club but once they had some support they went for it and tell me they are happy they did it.
Its amazing how quick they can build a whole frame of comb, some say they can build a comb faster than they can draw out a sheet of foundation.
Michael Bush puts his in a motorized extractor, I think if the wax is cured enough its fine, I don't know if he reinforces his or not. He is a great resource of information.
He got stuck with me at a conference this summer and I made him tell me all he knows :-D
There are a few of us on here that do foundationless, not alot but it seems like more and more all the time so you may find there will be more threads on it this spring when it starts back up.

[Bigeddie]

How did yours build up for winter? I'm hoping to get two deeps built up good and strong for winter here as winter lasts from late Oct. to April. Planing on starting 12 colonys this way. I know there are alot of naysayers about foundationless but I wonder how many have really tried it, after all bees in a tree start out and stay without foundation.
Thanks again for your encouragement!!

Eddie

[Natalie]

Most of mine built up great, I started 11 colonies on foundationless. The only ones I that were slow were form a swarm and a cutout that I got late in the season.
The first ones I did were two russian colonies and I had heard all this negative stuff too, I was completely amazed at how quickly they built up.
I would check on them and then go back a week or two later and there would be a box of frames all built out.
Once I saw it for myself I felt better about it, its definitely something you have to try for yourself rather than letting others discourage you.
I started them in April and they went into winter with 4 mediums(I do all mediums) no problem, so two deeps should not be an issue.
I know all colonies are different and will build up differently, some start a little slower but then suddenly catch up when there is a flow on.

Having a good flow is one of the biggest factors in how quickly they will get it done.
My goal this year was to at least have them build and fill all the combs they would need to go into winter.
I really didn't care if I got any honey for myself or not as long as this was accomplished because once all the brood combs are built you have those for the following spring and they will just be building honeycomb.
I was lucky and did get some honey this year though but I left alot for them.

I use frames that have an angled topbar, if you can make them or you know someone who can they are much eaiser than using starter strips or gluing in popsicle sticks.
Not that those won't work, this is just easier and if you are trying to keep all chemicals(glue) or foundation wax (strips) out of your hives then this works great.

I know the beeks in my county club were against it too, but when I asked them not one of them had ever even tried it so I took that with a grain of salt and did it anyway and I am glad I did.
I get the same grief from the same people over the topbar hives too, again they have never owned any.
The same people give me a hard time about not using any chemicals in my hives as well.
I just try new things and see how it goes, its a learning curve anyway so where is the fun in playing it safe?
If you hit a bump in the road then you wil figure it out and people here can help. Mostly people run into wavy comb, but you just cut that out and put the frame back in anyway.
Its easier to start out a hive foundationless than try to switch them over later on from foundation.
It just works for me and I like this management style.
You will never know until you try.