Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: Pi on January 11, 2007, 09:19:12 pm

Title: vinegar for mites
Post by: Pi on January 11, 2007, 09:19:12 pm
Does anyone have any information on how to use vinegar (acetic acid) to treat for mites?  I see vinegar vaporizers advertised in bee magazines, but there has to be a way for hobby keepers to use this stuff without spending a lot of money.  I'd love to try it.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: abejaruco on January 13, 2007, 01:26:52 pm
I use the vinegar to dress the lettuce. :mrgreen:

Please, the bees are living being. And vinegar does not kill mites.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Mici on January 13, 2007, 04:06:09 pm
some say it helps against chalk brood
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on January 13, 2007, 04:22:59 pm
some say it helps against chalk brood

Researchers say that no chemical help against chalkbrood.

I cannot find vinegar as official recommended stuff against varroa.  Beekeepers are tried what ever they get in their mind.

Official means that it is really tested.
.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: TwT on January 13, 2007, 05:24:23 pm
there are some that say acetic acid in vineger should works like oxalic acid or formic acid, they use a vaporizer to put in the hives, I heard of some (few) that only use viniger in hives by fogging it but there is no studies as for as I know about it. like finsky said its just something that poped in someones head one day after reading about formic and oxalic acids.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on January 13, 2007, 05:55:03 pm

Lactic acid is mentioned in official papers but it is not recommended any more. It is laborous to spray every frame.
Gasifyig oxalic acid is very common and effective.

I cannot se the value if hobbyest sacrifies his few hives for own researches. It is vain effort because people have tried huge number of tricks and they even believe them. Fools' job as we say.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on January 13, 2007, 08:02:16 pm
For a couple of bucks you can make an evaporator and for about six more you can buy enough oxalic acid to treat a hundred hives.
http://bwrangler.farvista.net/goxa.htm

In theory any organic acid is likely to have a similar effect on Varroa and bees.  That would include Formic, Oxalic, Lactic and Acetic (vinegar).  But the oxalic is cheaper to ship (the liquid ones have handling charges added on), cheaper to buy, and easy to use.
I also doesn't require buying an expensive vaporizer, although this one is probably worth the cost so you can stand back far enough upwind to avoid the fumes better:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on January 14, 2007, 03:27:48 pm
.
I looked from interent varroa acetic acid and I cannot find any research to test vinegar/acetic agid.  I would  say that it is out of usefull methods.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Mici on January 14, 2007, 06:12:46 pm
i can not disagree with finsky, BUT :-D if varoa is like some say 100 times more prone to acids, concentrated acetic acid should have the same effect, then again, if you have concentrated acetic acid, it's just as harmfull to bees as any other acids-organic. we can't forget vinegar is only what 5%?
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: imabkpr on January 14, 2007, 10:22:38 pm

 Finsky; You are right, no stats on vinegar vapor as a control for varroa and other in hive problems but it works. I have been using ONLY vinegar vapor for several years now. cef
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on January 15, 2007, 01:35:01 am

 Finsky; You are right, no stats on vinegar vapor as a control for varroa and other in hive problems but it works. I have been using ONLY vinegar vapor for several years now. cef


It is strange that it is not mentioned in researchings?

But when we speak about organic acids it is really mistake to bunch them.  Chemistry is not that simple.
http://www.chemtutor.com/acid.htm
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: GNHONEY on February 17, 2007, 09:06:52 pm
ITS STRANGE THAT SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO DISAGREE ABOUT THINGS THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT LIKE VAPORIZER FOR INSTANCE--GNHONEY--
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Jerrymac on February 17, 2007, 09:34:32 pm
Or small cell beekeeping where you don't need to do the vinegar thingy. 
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 18, 2007, 02:44:04 am
ITS STRANGE THAT SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO DISAGREE ABOUT THINGS THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT LIKE VAPORIZER FOR INSTANCE--GNHONEY--

MORE STANGE IS THAT IF I GIVE A SURE METHOD, HE MUST TWIST IT TO HIS OWN EVEN IF HE HAS ONLY ONE HIVE.

I have treated mites 20 years.Treating methods have changed all the time. Now there are several good treatments and you need meet any more varroa killed hives, if you do it like methods say.

One secret in acetic acid and formic acid may be that formic's boiling point is 101 C and acetic 118 C.  Formic acid gives better result because it is more volatile and need not heating. Thymol is another one. Acetic acid is  recommended nowhere even if it works.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 18, 2007, 02:45:01 am
Or small cell beekeeping where you don't need to do the vinegar thingy. 

Many have tried small cells and some have loosed everything. It is real trap for beginners.

Another trap is Russian bees.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: imabkpr on February 18, 2007, 07:19:07 am
Or small cell beekeeping where you don't need to do the vinegar thingy. 

Many have tried small cells and some have loosed everything. It is real trap for beginners.

Another trap is Russian bees.


Finski: Is now when you say, " I have been nurseing bees for 45 years"?  whatever that is supposed to mean. I have been associated with bees long enough to know that i don't know all there is to know about bees. Its evident you haven't that long.  Charlie
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 18, 2007, 07:23:51 am

 I have been associated with bees long enough to know that i don't know all there is to know about bees. Its evident you haven't that long.  Charlie

Sounds bad  :-D
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ayyon2157 on February 18, 2007, 01:35:53 pm
Finsky mentions that "some have lost everything" with small cells.

Could you enlighten me as to some of the disadvantages to small cells? I had previously thought that  the only downside was the bother to change over.
 
I had been planning to start a colony on small cells, right out of the package.

 thanks. I always appreciate your comments.

ayyon2157
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 18, 2007, 01:59:11 pm
Could you enlighten me as to some of the disadvantages to small cells?

This has bee discussed here so many times.......
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on February 18, 2007, 03:32:20 pm
>"some have lost everything" with small cells.

I have never heard from anyone who has.

>Could you enlighten me as to some of the disadvantages to small cells?

I see none.

>I had previously thought that  the only downside was the bother to change over.

It is.
 
>I had been planning to start a colony on small cells, right out of the package.

That's the easiest way.

It HAS been discussed many times.  Try a search.  See if you can find anyone who has done it who thinks it's a bad idea.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Cindi on February 19, 2007, 12:48:42 am

Another trap is Russian bees.
[/quote]

Finsky, why do you say that?  Best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 19, 2007, 02:00:20 am

Another trap is Russian bees.

Finsky, why do you say that?  Best of days.  Cindi
[/quote]

Because many beginner believes that Russian keeps mites off and they do not. Many have lost all hives when he has not handled mites.
I have read many stories about that.  It depends how you read expereriences, to sustain your believes or watch out for other's experiences.

Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on February 19, 2007, 06:54:57 am
>Because many beginner believes that Russian keeps mites off and they do not.

I have to agree.  I have not seen any less mites with the Russians.  I HAVE seen the survive mite loads that would kill Italians.  But they will eventually die on large cell comb without some kind of help.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: KONASDAD on February 20, 2007, 05:28:47 pm
In the November 2006 issue of Bee Journal there is an article about oxalic acid. In the first few paragraphs, the author (name escapes me and I dont have mag in front of me) list acetic acid as an alternative acid for bees. He mentions nothing else. No studies, info, nothing. He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article. After the last discusion regarding acetic acid, i went back and reread the article as i am contemplating using oxalic acid. Since I seem to have brood all the time the temp is above 50F in my area, I dont know when I would use oxalic acid as the bees are either raising brood, or in a cluster. The acetic acid part jumped out at me, but alas, it provides no "real" info.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on February 20, 2007, 08:42:57 pm
If you are doing any treatment for Varroa it will be more beneficial when there is no brood:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

Oxalic acid vapor when there is brood will have an affect on the mites that are not sealed in the brood and, from what I've seen, won't damage the brood.  You can do it three times a week apart if you need to.  Trickling, from what I've seen, is not recommended three times.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 20, 2007, 09:15:26 pm
He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article.

I have went through European reseaches but I don't find result. I may see that acetic acid has bees in program but no results.

Good methods to kill mites are many. During brooding time we use formic acid and thymol.

.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: pdmattox on February 20, 2007, 09:39:56 pm
i use aprigaurd for my mite treatment.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 20, 2007, 09:42:23 pm
i use aprigaurd for my mite treatment.

It is thymol stuff.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Cindi on February 21, 2007, 12:52:14 am
My understanding.  Oxalic acid trickle is done ONLY ONE TIME when there is NO BROOD present, it will kill brood.  I have no information or experience on O.A. vapour, hence no comment.  Best of days.  Cindi
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 21, 2007, 01:07:31 am
My understanding.  Oxalic acid trickle is done ONLY ONE TIME when there is NO BROOD present, it will kill brood. 

It is really so. There are many other methods too. Don't please create your own methods and setups. They will be expencive to you. The idea is not to violate bees with cures. But however, beekeepings best idea is not to take coltrol mites.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Robo on February 21, 2007, 09:38:34 am
Since I seem to have brood all the time the temp is above 50F in my area, I dont know when I would use oxalic acid as the bees are either raising brood, or in a cluster. The acetic acid part jumped out at me, but alas, it provides no "real" info.

The lack of detailed info on acetic acid, other than "it is the greatest thing since sliced bread" is really fustrating and leaving many people very skeptical.   When essential oils was being pushed as the answer for all problems,  there were at least some people trying to provide some type of scientific testing (albeit low tech and questionable).  Is there any evidence that acetic affects varroa in capped brood?   I know oxalic doesn't and formic does,  but where does acetic fall.

When I first switched to using oxalic acid,  I had heavy infestation and plenty of brood in the hives.   I vaporized 3 times at 7 day intervals as Michael described and I had no noticeable brood damage.   Now I just vaporize once a year in the Fall and have not lost a hive to varroa in 3 years.

I also question the statement by the relative of the vinegar vaporizer maker.

Quote
At this time, we are happy to provide this machine to those who are seeking a chemically free alternative that successfully and safely treats their hives. We are not looking for an endorsement from any one entity.  Frankly we have a great product with a proven track record of customers who are increasing their annual honey yields while reducing their losses from dead hives.   

chemically free???   If acetic acid isn't a chemical,   than neither is oxalic acid.  I know they try to use the pickle example for it being safe,  but I can also put together an arguement for oxalic acid that the quantity I use is the same as 3 1/2 cups of chopped spinach.

As far as a proven track record, I'm not convinced at that either.  Yes there are some here that swear by it (and I'm happy for them),  but go over to Beesource and do a search and you will find just as many that say it didn't work for them.  I lived through similar times with essential oils.  There where many that claimed great success, others biased by their desire to want success, and those that had little to no success.

I don't want to discount it,  but I just don't see the details yet for me to consider buying in on the claims.   Why does acetic help nosema, fowl brood, chalk brood and hive beetle but yet the other organic acids don't?  Until some data (even rudimentary) is provided to back up some of these claims, most will remain skeptical from being burned by snake oil salesman claims in the past.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: KONASDAD on February 21, 2007, 10:22:57 am
He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article.

I have went through European reseaches but I don't find result. I may see that acetic acid has bees in program but no results.

Good methods to kill mites are many. During brooding time we use formic acid and thymol.

.

Sorry Finsky for my inartful use of language-the research was on oxalic acid, which is why he discusses the pros and cons of oxalic, and not any of the other organic acids listed. After all of the discussion on acetic on the forum, I thought it was interesting the author mentions it once.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 21, 2007, 11:18:45 am

 When essential oils was being pushed as the answer for all problems, 

And the affecting stuff was thymol.  - Sounds fine that oil.

Quote
I vaporized 3 times at 7 day intervals as Michael described and I had no noticeable brood damage. 

Why vaporazing oxalic acid is not in favour is that formic acid make same job without heating.

Quote
chemically free??? 

Those who talk about chemicals, they do not kno what is chemical. Vitamin pills are too.

 I have read a lot biochemistyry in university. It is science which researches chemistry of life.

What are essential oils , who knows that:
Essential oils are made up of many chemical constituents. No two oils are alike in their structure or their effects.
Below is a list of some of the main constituents found in essential oils: http://www.therealessentials.com/chemistry.html
· Alcohols
· Aldehydes
· Esters
· Ethers
· Ketones
· Phenols
· Terpenes



Quote
Why does acetic help nosema,
  98% acetic acid kills nosema spores from empty combs.


Quote
fowl brood, chalk brood

Acetic acid sterilizes European fould brood spores in empty combs but not AFB

No chemical affect on chalk brood or medication - some one says but researches say NO

We have a lot good recipes and reseraches but it must be something else but what ....... something popular.... :-P

Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Robo on February 21, 2007, 11:25:15 am
Why vaporazing oxalic acid is not in favour is that formic acid make same job without heating.

Formic acid was not readily available here in the US at the time (thanks to illegal drug manufacturing),  formic acid application is temperature dependant and more time consuming/manipulations than oxalic acid vaporization.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 21, 2007, 11:33:19 am

Here is tough gyes from Europe who has reseached varroa control for many years. Italian Nanetti invent the oxalic trickling.

You may underestimate professional knowledge and you have your own hobbiers' secrets manouvers. But it is only your business. They are your own hives and and others are not responsible for your bees.

This text is 9 years old. It is worth reading. Since then much has achieved on that field.

http://www.izsvenezie.it/dnn/Portals/0/apicoltura/IntegratedVarroaControl.pdf

Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on February 21, 2007, 11:37:59 am
.

Here is from UK May 2006  http://www.lrbka.org/web/Downloads/FAQ%2023%20VC%20Organic%20Acids.pdf

Title: Re: vinegar VAPORIZER for mites
Post by: GNHONEY on March 02, 2007, 01:46:45 pm
Went  to my last bee yard today 27 beeyards to be exact hit them with vineger vaporizer in the fall. out of all hives lost 18% not bad .lost about ninty% three years ago that was before I started using the cyclone.ps not going to argue about what works and what dont it works for me and im sticking with it. :-D--GNHONEY--
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on March 02, 2007, 03:48:57 pm
>formic acid make same job without heating.

Most formic acid available here has a lot of lead in it (Pb).  Formic acid is VERY temperature dependent.  The studies I've seen on it report high queen losses.  I have seen none of these disadvantages with Oxalic acid vaporization.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ndvan on March 02, 2007, 07:08:23 pm
I am a beginner, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

However, at my last bee club meeting, I had a talk with a very experienced beekeeper who has a friend in TX who is also very experienced.  The beek in Texas was using acetic acid fumigation basically just like others have used oxalic acid.  He reported great success.  Finsky may be right that this has not been tested in studies, but it appears a study needs to be done.  If it works, it works, whether or not a university scientist has done a study.  (I do agree that studies are the best way to find out whether it does work.)

Here's another thought.  As I understand it, oxalic acid fumigating is illegal in the US, due to lack of approval.  However, its also my understanding that using food products for treatment is not regulate (such as food grade mineral oil).  As I understand it, the acetic acid being used to fumigate bees is MUCH stronger than regular vinegar.  However, given that a jar of pickles has acetic acid in it, would this avoid the legal restrictions?  (I'm not suggesting it would, I'm just asking.)

Thanks,

ndvan
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Robo on March 02, 2007, 10:35:02 pm
However, given that a jar of pickles has acetic acid in it, would this avoid the legal restrictions? 

Well broccoli, spinach, rhubarb have oxalic acid in them, and they are "more natural" than pickles.  So if your logic holds for acetic, it should hold for oxalic acid too.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ndvan on March 03, 2007, 12:45:56 am
I know what you are saying, but we are talking about federal regulations.  I am a lawyer.  My area of practice does not include federal agricultural regulations, so I don't know what the laws actually say.  However, I would never assume that the regs are logical.  :-D Does anybody know a citation for the relevant regulations?  I can read them myself, but I don't want to go the law library to research this. 

Thanks. 
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Finsky on March 04, 2007, 04:31:58 am
Finsky may be right that this has not been tested in studies, but it appears a study needs to be done.  If it works, it works, whether or not a university scientist has done a study.   (I do agree that studies are the best way to find out whether it does work.)


Varroa has been 30 years in Western Europe and 20-25 years in USA.  In Russia the end of Soviet Union colapsed many things like beekeeping.

University scientists mean that they have skill to to work (like layers in the city court ) and the State pays them fee that they can do work whole day and can use perhaps during their life their skills, They have opportunity to visit in other countries and get best information. They have tools like insemination instruments.

Scientifich researches means that you have a method and another guys follow that method and look, if they get same results.  So we get general information.  No need to invent same wheel. Or if you succeed in some thing, what was the reason. In Arizona they have succeed to get mite tolerant bees, but no one knows why? One good explanation is that it is a calm branch of Africanized race. That explanes that on industry level no one want to breed them further.

But first of all, beekeeping researchers do work which serves beekeeping and agricultural industry. Hobbiest applies what they want. It disturbes nothing.

The duty of researches is to find all the time best practices. Not methods which work,  but best ones. They are developing all the time. The method must be relevant for honey production industry, because professionals do not get earnings by executing just activities. That is why Russian bees casted in early phase in practive  to relieve out howit goes on industrial level.

There are tens of methods in use to handle mites. That is not question which work. The question is, which is best to use. Where you get information. Europe have made varroa researhes many years with hundreds of hives and now USA make same work  5 years later.

Varroa is so dangerous to my money purse that I do not want to sacrify my honey yield to "Virtual Evolution". I have knowledge and experience enough in this issue.

Maybe M. Bush's system works in mite question but in honey production level it seems to be invalid. He says that he has very small winter clusters. It means that bees have destroyed the worker cells which have varroa inside. So colony is too small in spring to make pollination duty or get good honey yield. Like it has been researched, if varroa contamination goes over certain limit, hives will not go on economical level. It is same with swarming or chalk brood. If you loose 20% of you workers, you cannot run you beekeeping business any more.

That guy with acetic acid says that he lost 18% of his hives. That is really bad because with better methods it should be lover.

Of course "every boy" may do his own studies. You reserve 20 hives for 3 years. When you leave some hives under mercy of mites or wether, you need not extract honey from those hives. Why hobby beekeeper make these thing when universtity beekeeprs have hundreds of hives and manoy to make what ever fool things.  - Yes, and where are rearches studies? Often they get nothing from their researches. That is olso risk when you make new thigs. You get nothing.

In private companies when they start development projects to make better business, only 25% meet success. That is the backround when you doom people when they try something new.

To learn beekeeping that no bad surprises happen any more, it takes 3-5 years to learn for best guys, and most of hobbiest learn never and they give up.

The failure is a good place of learning. Often you accept failures as normal happenings, but some day when "cup of learning" is full, you decide to do something to your problem.

To me after these years the most difficult thing is to find best pastures for hives to get maximum yield. It is difficult every year. Mite is not problem at all. It is my friend. Mite protects that what ever bees will not mix my good genepool in my yards. 20 years ago it was very painfull to breed bees because drones from feral hives put upside down my achievements (German black race).  It was a littel bit same as you have Africanized bees.

What ndvan want to do, is beebreeding. It is not that you go to shop and get some small cel foundations.

.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ndvan on March 04, 2007, 09:49:03 am
>"Well broccoli, spinach, rhubarb have oxalic acid in them, and they are "more natural" than pickles.  So if your logic holds for acetic, it should hold for oxalic acid too."

There could be a difference.  It is clear that just because a food product contains a chemical component, that you cannot necessarily add the component to other foods.  For example, apple seeds contain cyanide, but you surely could not say that cyanide can be added to other food products.

However, acetic acid could be something that is approved for use as an ingredient, such as in pickles.  I suspect (but don't really know) that commercial pickle makers use watered down acetic in lieu of vineger.  If that were okay, maybe acetic acid is not subject to the same rules as oxalic acid.

Does that make any sense at all?  Also, does anybody know the source of these regulations?

Thanks, ndvan

Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on March 04, 2007, 11:47:56 am
>He says that he has very small winter clusters.

It's just what Buckfasts, Carniolans, Russians, and these feral survivors do.  They overwinter in smaller, more frugal clusters than the Italians.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Robo on March 04, 2007, 12:40:05 pm
Does that make any sense at all?

Sure does.  I was just playing devils advocate. :evil:  Seems like some are proclaiming acetic as the only "natural/safe" answers and I have trouble with that.  Comparing 5% vinegar to 25% acetic to 100% oxalic.  Even cyanide is not going to hurt you if diluted enough.

I think you hit it pretty well with your statement about logic.

Also, does anybody know the source of these regulations?
Tree hugging environmental liberals?  :?  Perhaps the same ones that were determined to get DDT banned regardless if it was safe or not.   Sorry, couldn't resist. 8-)
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Jerrymac on March 04, 2007, 12:53:51 pm
It is my understanding that if something hasn't been approved by what ever government agency (pest control board?) that approves these things then it is not legal to use the stuff as a pesticide. Now just what is a pesticide?

Taken from;

http://npic.orst.edu/gen.htm#po

What is a pesticide?

A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for:

    * preventing,
    * destroying,
    * repelling, or
    * mitigating any pest.

Though often misunderstood to refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides, fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests.

Under United States law, a pesticide is also any substance or mixture of substances intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on March 04, 2007, 02:41:20 pm
That includes salt on slugs, dishwashing  liquid on fruit trees, and probably stepping on cockroaches...
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Jerrymac on March 04, 2007, 03:58:52 pm
I don't think stepping is a substance..... But the shoe would be I guess.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on March 04, 2007, 04:15:42 pm
But stepping is a method of controlling pests and it is not certified or approved.
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Jerrymac on March 04, 2007, 04:17:42 pm
A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for.....

You're just messin with me ain'cha?
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ndvan on March 04, 2007, 04:31:32 pm
Jerrymac,

Thanks for that link.  As I understand it, the regulations apply to any product being used as a pesticide.  It is the nature of the use that matters.  If you think about it, that really is the only way they could write regs on pesticides.  The first step in the analysis would be to decide what it is that is being regulated.  That explains the broad reading of the term "pesticide."  Its wierd, but its logical in its own way.

Second, once something is a "pesticide," its got to be registered.

Third, there are exemptions for active ingredients that are known to be safe (such as some herbal stuff) and inert materials that are known to not be hazardous.  That part of the rules gets confusing, because it looks like some of the safe inert materials are approved for some uses but not others.

After wading through the text, I think that acetic acid vaporizing would be legal.  It was listed in the appendix B section as a safe inert material.  That would be a reason for US beeks to use it instead of Oxalic.

I want to stress that this is not intended to be legal advice to anybody.  This is not my practice area, and I do not even know if that link provides current info. about the law.  I may have misread it, and you can read it yourself.  Anybody who wants to wants to use acetic could call their friends at the EPA for their view-- good luck getting a person on the phone for that one.

What may need to happen is that the EPA may need to add oxalic acid to the safe, inert materials list.  If they would, then there would be no need for registration of the product as a pesticide.  Since you can buy it in hardware stores, it does not appear to be heavily regulated for other purposes.  I would think that with all the press about hive collapse and mites, now might be a good time for somebody to push that.  Are there any national beekeeping lobbying organizations?  What are they doing?

Just my two cents.

ndvan
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Understudy on March 04, 2007, 04:57:09 pm
Since mitigating means to make less severe, that would mean cold sugar water sprayed on bees to calm them down. So I guess I am already in trouble. But wait doesn't smoke do the same thing.

I guess we are all in trouble.

Jerrymac
As I understand it shoes must be of certain pattern or style on the bottom in order to be approved for squishing.









Yes, MB is messing with you. 8-)

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Robo on March 04, 2007, 06:11:09 pm
So I guess it is OK to bleach my bottom boards with oxalic acid to keep them looking good :-P
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Michael Bush on March 04, 2007, 08:54:36 pm
>So I guess it is OK to bleach my bottom boards with oxalic acid to keep them looking good

Exactly.  And I can wash my pear tree with dishwashing liquid because it looked dirty...

Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: Jerrymac on March 05, 2007, 01:13:09 am
That depends.... Was the dirt a pest?
Title: Re: vinegar for mites
Post by: ndvan on March 05, 2007, 07:05:57 pm
What is this, a beekeeping site or a Libertarian blog? :-D

For the record, soap is excluded from the pesticide list.

As for oxalic, I hear its good for removing rust stains.  I hear those screened bottom boards are awfully rust prone.

ndvan
Title: Re: vinegar VAPORIZER for mites
Post by: Robo on March 06, 2007, 10:16:48 am
Went  to my last bee yard today 27 beeyards to be exact hit them with vineger vaporizer in the fall. out of all hives lost 18% not bad .lost about ninty% three years ago that was before I started using the cyclone.ps not going to argue about what works and what dont it works for me and im sticking with it. :-D--GNHONEY--

Not trying to argue either,  but what do contribute the 18% loss to?