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Author Topic: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids  (Read 1943 times)

Offline OzBuzz

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Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« on: September 29, 2016, 01:42:50 AM »
G'day Folks,

I was hoping to get everybody's thoughts on the best type of extractor - I'm ideally hoping to source an 8 or 12 frame electric extractor - I've used both radial and tangential units before. My opinion is that tangential gets a greater amount of honey out of the frames, but requires reversing of the frames, and radial doesn't require flipping of the frames but doesn't get as complete an extraction due to the way the honey comes out of the frames with some going to the wall but some also hitting the frame next to it. What's others experiences? Is there a hybrid where you can get the benefits of a tangential with the reversibility of a radial? Can anyone recommend a good supplier - I'm in Australia but am happy to consider importing something.

Cheers

OzBuzz

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 09:03:07 AM »
I don't have much actual experience to offer I'm afraid but recently went through a similar decision process, having to choose an extractor without being able to see and test it beforehand.

I'm a small scale hobbyist (in Canberra also in Oz) so don't really need a lot of capacity but my previous experiences with small, manual 4 frame tangential equipment convinced me that I didn't need to go down that path again.

Yes there are extractors akin to the 'hybrid' you describe. In my youth one of the commercial apiarists I dealt with had what was called a semi-reversible extractor with hinged baskets that would rotate through about a 50-60 degree arc when the extractor reversed direction. Expensive due to all the extra work and material used to construct them, turn them and clean them and... chaos if one of the baskets or chains broke.  I'm not sure how much they're used here in Aus any more, the commercial guys seem to all use large radial equipment.  They're good for heavy, cold and partially crystallized honeys and hence... I gather they're pretty much necessary if you're dealing with thixotropic honey like the New Zealanders with Manuka.
At the hobbyist end of the scale I was considering and can get 6 frame unit at around the same landed cost here in Oz as a 12 frame radial.

A 12 frame radial was very tempting but I chose not to go down that path largely due to the extra bulk of the unit needing to be stored and moved around, given I don't really need that capacity. Plus... the units I've been considering appear to generate a bit less centrifugal force than the 8 frame unit which could be an issue with colder, stickier honey; and I don't have three phase power which would be needed for a more serious motor to get sufficient speed.

A 6 frame radial is nearly right for me, quite a bit cheaper than the 6 frame self-reversible and 12 frame radials but... not quite enough of a step away form the 4 frame unit I had in yesteryear.


Which left me withe the mother bear approved not-too-small, not-too-large, not-cheap-and-nasty but not-too-expensive option of an 8 frame, electric radial extractor which turns up in a bit over a week so I'll know soon after that if I made a mistake :-)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 09:32:08 AM »
The amount of honey that comes out a frame is based on the honey, speed and time not whether it is tangential or radial.  Is there a commercial operation that uses a tangential?  That tells me which is the better choice and why I made a four frame radial machine for my three hives.
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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 10:58:35 AM »

"The amount of honey that comes out a frame is based on the honey, speed, time and the angle of incidence of the centrifugal force hence whether it is tangential or radial."
There fixed it for you  :tongue:



"Is there a commercial operation that uses a tangential?"
I doubt there are any using true tangentials but what the OP called a 'hybrid' and I called semi-reversible but are also called self-reversing and semi-radial that tilt the frame to one side as it rotates and to the other side when it rotates in the reverse direction.
They're more complex and hence more expensive to make than radial so they're not used as much these days unless really needed but they can get difficult honeys out of frames faster and more thoroughly than radial extractors can or that radial extractors simply can't get out at all so yes they're used and used commercially.  eg like this: http://bouteljeproducts.co.nz/catalogue/product/boutelje-32fs-manuka-honey-extractor/

I don't have to deal with thixotropic/jelly-like honey but cold and partially crystallized honey, eg like Canola/OSR is likely, perhaps more so for a hobbyist than commercials as we have other jobs to do so can't extract as soon/frequently as would be ideal.
I happen to have access to hot room facilities to warm supers up before extraction so used this to justify to myself getting the slightly larger radial extractor but otherwise a 6 frame self reversing was tempting.



Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 12:11:26 PM »
>Is there a commercial operation that uses a tangential?

Yes.  They used to all be tangential and there are some huge ones that are still out there.  Radial is a relatively recent concept in the world of extraction.  Dee Lusby always uses them because she just can't get the thick (low moisture) desert honey out without one.  But all things being equal they both work as well on normal honey.
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 01:49:01 PM »
Do not most commercial beekeepers use warm rooms ?Where they preheat the supers to about a hundred degrees for about  24 hours.


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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2016, 05:04:37 PM »
The ones I have see on the utube videos do.
One had an in floor heated room that is kept at 100 degrees.
Jim
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Offline Joe D

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2016, 01:36:56 AM »
If you are extracting down here in the summer, heat is no problem to come up with.  It is hot.

G'day to you too OzBuzz, sorry can't help have never used a tangential extractor.

Joe D

Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 02:02:14 PM »
I'm still using a Kelly hand cranked reversible tangential that was made in the '60's and love it so far for 4 or 5 hives. I believe Kelly still makes a full line of both radial and reversible extractors for commercial and hobby bee keepers. They even carry parts for my 50 year old antique Kelly extractor.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 08:49:05 PM »
I'm still using a Kelly hand cranked reversible tangential that was made in the '60's and love it so far for 4 or 5 hives. I believe Kelly still makes a full line of both radial and reversible extractors for commercial and hobby bee keepers. They even carry parts for my 50 year old antique Kelly extractor.
How long do you hand crank?  20 min. to make a quart of ice cream is way to much for me.  I sure as heck would not want to hand crank 5 hives of honey.
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Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 03:54:11 PM »
Ace, I bring the extractor up to speed for under a minute and let it slow down on it's own then hit the brake to stop it. It is easy to tell when all the honey has been flung out of the comb by looking down at the wall of the tub and watch. The honey only takes a short time to get spun out of the frames with the extractor I'm using. The tub is almost twice the size of most of the twin frame extractors that are available now and having a larger tub produces a lot more centrifugal force on the honey. Plus being a tangential the honey gets flung straight out of the comb instead of flowing across the comb as in a radial.
  It took me 1 1/2 hours to uncap and spin 3 10 frame shallows of honey but deep frames take a lot more time both to uncap and spin.
   

Offline Acebird

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 10:04:35 PM »
Plus being a tangential the honey gets flung straight out of the comb instead of flowing across the comb as in a radial.
I don't know why people think this and say this.  The honey does not flow across the face of the comb.  Put some honey in a champagne glass and spin around in a circle with your arm out straight.  Hold the glass like it was a cell in a frame.  See how the honey leaves the glass.  The frames are moving away from the honey that spills out of the cells.  If the frames were so compacted together the honey from one frame would hit the frame next to it but it is not going to run down its own frame.  Furthermore the cells are at a 13 degree angle tipping in the direction of the force.
In a tangential you cannot empty both sides of the frame at the same time so you have to limit the speed of the extractor or you will blow out the cells from the weight of the honey on the other side.  This means in order to get the cells dry you have to go through 4 cycles of flipping frames.  All you have to do with a radial is increase the speed as the frame gets lighter.  Speed is a factor for centripetal force.  A radial extractor can generate much more centripetal force than a tangential without destroying the frame and can extract in 1/4 the time.
The only advantage of a tangential extractor is it can be smaller, smaller means cheaper.  I can't see any other advantage.
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2016, 11:08:28 PM »
Let me ask you a foolish question. I wonder what the number is in deep frames for a radial extractor deep frames extractor. You can have before you can not get it through a standard door.
When I use a tangential extractor I do in 2 or 3 flips
         



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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2016, 01:20:09 AM »
Let me ask you a foolish question. I wonder what the number is in deep frames for a radial extractor deep frames extractor. You can have before you can not get it through a standard door.
When I use a tangential extractor I do in 2 or 3 flips

This reminds me of an old ad with an owl...
How many flips does it take to get the extractor through the door?  1, 2, 3, ... Crunch.  :wink:

Offline Acebird

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2016, 08:24:06 AM »
I wonder what the number is in deep frames for a radial extractor deep frames extractor. You can have before you can not get it through a standard door.

Maxant 1400 series does 10 and it is only 26" in dia.  Standard doors are less then 2 ft to 4ft.  Standard entrance to a home today is 3 ft.
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Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2016, 10:32:17 AM »
x
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 10:43:05 AM by Beeboy01 »

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2016, 12:20:03 PM »
Let me ask you a foolish question. I wonder what the number is in deep frames for a radial extractor deep frames extractor. You can have before you can not get it through a standard door.
When I use a tangential extractor I do in 2 or 3 flips
         



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I have a 9/18 frame Mann Lake extractor that I take in and out of my doors every time I use it. I think it is 28" or less.
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2016, 12:37:10 AM »
I
In a tangential you cannot empty both sides of the frame at the same time so you have to limit the speed of the extractor or you will blow out the cells from the weight of the honey on the other side.  This means in order to get the cells dry you have to go through 4 cycles of flipping frames.  All you have to do with a radial is increase the speed as the frame gets lighter.  Speed is a factor for centripetal force.  A radial extractor can generate much more centripetal force than a tangential without destroying the frame and can extract in 1/4 the time.[/quote]

I guess sometime it pays to be new and dumb to the "facts".  I have a 4 frame tangential extractor and the main reason was the cost, more than $300.00 less than the same size radial extractor.  I did not know any better so spun the frames as fast as I could turn the crank, no blow-outs and no problems, turned the frames only once, repeated spinning and in less than 5 minutes had the frames clean and dry.  Why would you go through 4 cycles of flipping the frames when two will complete the process?  First year beekeeper and was told could not make any honey this year but nobody told my girls.  By the end of July my bees were in two deeps and three mediums all 8 frames per box.  Removed top two supers/mediums and extracted 48 to 50 pounds per hive and left bottom super on each hive for them to use.  As far as time extracted one hive per day starting about 9AM and was done with 16 frames, had nearly a 5 gallon bucket of honey and everything cleaned up before 11AM each day.  No rush, no fuss, and had 9 and 12 years grand daughters "helping" with every step which slowed us down but sure added to the enjoyment!  :cheesy:
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2016, 11:16:35 AM »
Why would you go through 4 cycles of flipping the frames when two will complete the process?

Because two doesn't always work.  It will depend on a couple of things.  How delicate the comb is to start with and whether the comb is fully drawn out such that it is supported by the basket.  I think you can understand that if you had plastic foundation it is a lot more forgiving for rough handling then natural cell.  likewise wired frames make a difference.  No one is saying that tangential extractors don't work.  If they didn't work they wouldn't sell.  We are just discussing pro and cons.
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Offline damienpryan

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Re: Tangential vs. radial extractors and hybrids
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 02:12:27 AM »
Out of interest you only need 2 goes if you use 1 piece plastic frames.
You can speed up those suckers as fast as you like any they never blow out.

Cheers

Damien