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Author Topic: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.  (Read 1409 times)

Offline gww

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Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« on: January 14, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
Ace
I tried to send a personal message to you rather then keep taking your label thread topic off topic.

I can't figure out how to add pictures there and so thought I would try here.

Here is what I started with, it used to be some kind of back massager that had round dowls that you leaned up against.  I squared a couple of the dowls and got this.



This is close to done and what I ended up with so far.  It could be tweeked some and I am not sure if the motor is going to be strong enough for full frames but it will only do four mediums at a time and I am thinking it will be ok.




I don't mind if you find me funny.  So far except for paint, I haven't had to buy anything new and it has been made out of junk I had laying around.  I wanted to make the 20 frame bee scorce free plan, but would have had to spend money on plywood and so I guess this will have to do for a bit.

Cheers
gww

Ps I don't know why the pictures are not in line with the text.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 09:07:27 AM »
Hi gww,
First off, a simple belt reduction will not be enough if it is driven by a sewing machine motor.  It most definitely will have enough power.  If you use a belt reduction above the vessel make sure it is covered so the belt particles do not get in your honey.
I am not sure where the frames will be in reference to the spinning apparatus.  What is the make up of the spinning apparatus, materials / bearings and such?  How will you protect it from the honey and will it survive cleaning?
You should understand something about belt drives ... in order to develope torque which is the force that makes it turn the belt will pull towards the motor.  If the bottom end of the shaft is free inside the garbage can it is going to swing.  It will not stay in the center of the can.  The engaging and disengaging of the clutch will make this much worse.

I think you should have at least 9:1 reduction on this motor (multiple belts, maybe).  The last belt you can make loose so it slips and that will let the drum start slow and also reduce the belt pull which causes the swing.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 11:54:38 AM »
Ace
I thought of some of the things you mention.  I am going to make two lids that slides up against the board that the pully is sticking out of. 

The first picture makes up the spinning part.  Bearing on top and on bottom of shaft.

The frames slide between each of the dowls that are on the origional first picture.  I used an angle grinder to cut slots out of the top pully that lets me just barily slide medium frames down in it. 

The whole set up is about 4.5 inches from the bottom of the trash barrel.  It is a 2x6 block with a hole in the center for a bearing on the shaft to sit in.  It is attached to a cross member made out of 2x3 that sits on the bottom of the barrel.

The whole center comes out with just removing the belt and two screws.  It should be ok, though messy for cleaning.  I will use a power washer on it,

It does have some bad issues like getting the honey out of it will require dumping the last part out of the top of the trash can due to the trash can having built in ressecess on its bottom.  I will be able to strain into a bucket as I extract except for the last gallon or so.

I think the motor will have enough power though every once in a while it seems to hit some kind of internal reset but when you stop it comes back on immediatly and does not do that except in the very beginning.  The sewing machine motor runs all the time but in the end, It ended up being very quiet.  It is very easy to start very slow and I am trying to think of a way to put some kind of jacking system on the arm that moves the clutch in and out.  Maby a bolt with a T on it that you can screw in for more speed and screw out to stop.  It had a break on it and will stop fast in you are going fast and just stop it.  Over all if the motor carries the weight of the full frames, I believe the clutch system is going to work very well as it sets.  The big pully on the top does make sliding the honey frames in a precise thing and I wish it was a little smaller but I put a tack weld on it and so will have to live with it.

My two biggest complaints right now are the ease of putting the frames in and the bottom of the barrel not being compleetly flat.  I could redo the frame thing but probly won't cause it is good enough.  The other issue could be the stress on the top bar of the frame its self.  One or two of the bottom retainers is tight enough that the frame will not come out and hit the retainer on the top of the bar.  This will put a lot of weight on the bottom frame rest of the actual frame top bar.  Over all. I am going to really paint and clean like crazy and then try it like it is before going to the trouble of moving some of the frame retaining bars out to relieve stress.

I think it is going to work ok but don't have heavy full frames to try it and so will clean it, put it in a corner and wait on the bees to do there part.  Your comments are always welcome.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 12:28:04 PM »
The motor kicks out because as a sewing machine motor it relies on the clutch flywheel to drive the sewing machine without lowering the RPM of the motor too much.  When the RPM is greatly reduced it drives the currant in the motor to high.  When you first start the motor this happens but as it runs full speed the motor is cooled.  As an extractor your basket and frames have a lot of inertia to over come and the flywheel of the motor is much too small for what you are trying to drive.  Gearing will help tremendously.  That 9:1 would easily make it work.  It is like making the flywheel 9 times heavier.  Because you need to start and stop the extractor many times I think you will wear out the clutch without the ratio.  I caution you about using the brake too aggressively.  That belt pull can make for a dangerous situation if something lets loose.

I would assume that everything comes out of the trash can for clean up so dumping the remainder of the honey out is no big deal.  Right now even when I have 130 pounds of honey in my extractor I dump it out the top.  That is why I want to make a pump.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 01:38:35 PM »
Ace
Thanks for the motor explination.  I will probly try it for a while just because I don't have to buy anything to do it.  That motor has sit in my basement for maby 7 or 8 years.  If it does burn out the clutch, I will think of something differrent.  I made my chicken plucker direct drive with a 90 volt dc motor.  If I use a 110 volt ac motor, it would have required a ten to one reduction to work right.  I figured 12 volts would slow it down about right.  It did work on the 12 volts but worked better at 24 volts.  That bummed me a little cause then I couldn't just hook it to a car.  I am sure running that few of volts through that motor makes it get hot but it seemed to keep up and hasn't went bad yet.  I shouldn't want to destroy nice items like the motors but on the other hand, They sit and sit and what good are they if they just rot from sitting.  In the end, I will get what use I can and when it goes bad do something else.  I would have to buy more pullies and the michine would get heavier if I tried to do it right.  The problim with building with free junk is you always run into some kind of compermize.  It is still fun and I get to hear from poeple smarter then me tell me why I am having problims and so in the end I still learn a bit and can maby keep my eyes out for other free things for the next build and maby do better on it.
Thanks Brian
gww

Ps With the base already built, It wouldn't take much of a switch over if I do run on to a junk tread mill some day.  The treadmills lots of times have 2.5 horse dc motors in them.  Plus a way to control the speed.  All may not be lost in the end.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 03:29:49 PM »
The problim with building with free junk is you always run into some kind of compermize.

Not if you have enough junk or know where to get what you need.  Typically when you build from junk it requires more space that should be the only compromise if you can attain the junk you need.  By all means try what you have but always keep your eye out for what would improve the design.  Gear drives are everywhere, lawn mowers, snow blowers, garden tools.  The land fills are full of them.  Many people are happy to give this broken down stuff away just to get their garage or basement cleared.
Good luck searching.

Just so you know a ceiling fan motor only puts out around 1/10 HP.  That is all that is necessary to turn four frames fast enough to extract.  Gearing, belts and pulleys would consume more than that which is why I did not do the traditional belt drive arrangement for my extractor.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 03:36:39 PM »
Thanks ace
gww

Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 06:41:23 PM »
Just a couple of more pictures that might make it clearer or muddyer.  The pictures are the bearing block that sits at the bottom of the trash can.  The guts that I intend to take out and power wash when cleaning up and the way that I am controling the speed.  I used a shelf bracket and a piece of all thread.  I seem to have pretty decent control with it and it is not really unhandy.  Probly will be shortend though.

Just showing it for the heck of it.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
The first two pictures I can't make out anything.  The last one I can at least see what it is.  It appears that you are mechanically setting a distance on the clutch arm deflection with a screw.  This works if the torque remains constant but it doesn't.  As the honey gets spun out it will take less torque.  In an extractor the forces are ever changing.
Not to bury you in theory but have you ever heard of the term "servo"?  Servo is nothing more than giving feedback to a drive.  Feedback = I will tell you what I am doing.  Drive = I will tell you want to do.  So in simplest terms most humans are servos, if the extractor is going too fast they will slow it down and if it is going to slow they will speed it up.  Servos can be mechanical or electronic or manually manipulated by humans.  In most cases humans are the worse at control.  So think about a distributor or think about a governor.  These are mechanical servos.  If you can take the action of a spinning drum and actuate the clutch arm you will have what you need to control the clutch of the sewing machine motor.  This is theory ... your mechanical mind will have to make it happen.  Something tells me you are not going to sleep tonight and it is not the fault of a woman. ;-).
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 09:19:59 PM »
Ace
I think I get you.  My thoughts are that if the speed need be 350 rpm and I start a clutch such as is on the sewing machine at say 25 rpm, then chances may be good that as the frames get lighter, It may end up at 350 rpm or less.  Of course the proof will be in the pudding.  It stays pretty constant with a pretty constant weight.  I always wanted a couple of servo motors cause I always heard you could make wind turbines out of some of them depending of course on the starting voltage to rpm ratio.

I know my pictures suck.  I don't have a fancy smart phone and can never tell while taking a picture if it will actually show anything.  They all look bad on the phone while taking them but sometimes the computer cleans them up enough to see a little.  I don't have a camera that is worth messing with and the phone is easiest even if most of the pictures suck.

Anyway, Thanks for the imput.
Cheers
gww

Ps.  Maby the changing rpm will tell me when the frames are empty.  Sorta like a french fry, you know it is done when it flotes.  I can keep working and just use my ears for when to stop it.  I will know more when I get some honey but I can't see not trying it at least once.  I was thinking that crush and strain might be easier then extracting any way when it comes to clean up.  I have never done either and so am an open book as far as trying to see for myself what I like.

Offline Joe D

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 01:42:43 AM »
Back a few years ago I was in a salvage store and saw a new looking treadmill that was broken were you run on it.  I pulled it over to a plug in, the key was with it, and it ran fine.  I got to talking to the fellow and bought it for $5.00.  With the speed control you can go from stop to TO fast.  The cylinder that the motor turns I cut off to fit on the shaft running through the extractor, welded a washer in the cut end.  Used the belt that was on the motor, works fine.  You can start off slow and increase the speed and then slow it down.  When I fined putting it together I tried it with new frames, it has 8 frames, one of the frames came apart.  You just have to figure out how fast to run.  I do have top bearings above the lid and a block of fg plastic with bearing inside it mounted in the bottom of a 55 gal drum also fg.

Good luck to you and your bees

Joe D

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 08:49:17 AM »
What is fg plastic?  Never heard that before.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 11:47:01 AM »
Ace
My guess for joe is that the FG plastic means food grade.

Joe
It is always nice to hear from someone who has tried something before I try it so that I know it works rather then just having to expirment to see.  I have seen some pretty cheep treadmills in my life.  Not always when I wanted one though.  I sure wanted more then a 4 frame extractor but I didn't want to go searching for stuff while I had this stuff just laying around and I didn't want to spend money. 

I am going to try my extractor as it is built now and believe it will probly do ok.  Time will tell.
Thanks for the responce
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 02:26:49 PM »
Ace
My guess for joe is that the FG plastic means food grade.

Oh, OK, chances are the plastic drum isn't.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2017, 04:00:04 PM »
Ace
I just helped build a swim deck with 55 gal repurposed drums for the floats and they were full of bbq sause proir to our using them.
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 08:40:11 PM »
Is that what he used?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 11:02:07 PM »
Ace
Quote from joe
Quote
I do have top bearings above the lid and a block of fg plastic with bearing inside it mounted in the bottom of a 55 gal drum also fg.

I took it for granted that that was what he was useing.  I have been wrong before though.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2017, 09:38:04 AM »
You are right gww I missed it. 
Mine is plastic but I have no idea if it is food grade or not.  It is white though.  The way I look at a bee hive is that none of the components are food grade and the honey spends more time in the hive then it does in my extractor.  The hose I use to clean out my extractor is not food grade either.  The kitchen I use to process my honey is not an approved honey processing room.  The thing is I am not supplying Nabisco or Walmart.  Honey is a specialized food that is very forgiving when it comes to microbial growth.  Even if the equipment were deemed contaminated by an FDA inspection the likelihood of getting an infection from eating honey that was in contact with this equipment is very very low.  Most other foods you eat do not have this characteristic.  Don't be worried about food grade except for a lubricant with honey equipment.  Now I am not suggesting you build an extractor out of mild steel without protecting it from rusting.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2017, 11:40:37 AM »
Ace
I didn't worry about food grade for processing.  I don't figure the honey will be in the extractor very long and so went with the 5 second rule of where if you drop a piece of food, it is still good to eat if you get it in 5 seconds.  i had some say I needed cam cote paint but when I did a little research it seemed as long as any paint was cured and you were not eating the paint, it was all good.  Even the instructions for cam cote is for equiptment that already has corrosion to make it better where the corrotion is.  The trash can was even used for trash before being repurposed.  I did use elbo grease and bleach.  I am not worried about it at all.  If I had food grade, that would have been better but I intend to use what I have.  It is the steal shaft that made me spend even $6 for paint because of the acididy of honey against steal.  The aluminum did not worry me because I am not storing in it and I have some aluminum pots.  The wood worries me not at all cause like you say, Look inside a bee hive.  Better would be better but what I have is good enough.
Cheers
gww

Ps  If I had to spend $100 to build it, I would have just went to ebay and bought a new stainless steel one.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Ace, for the heck of it extractor.
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2017, 03:01:28 PM »
I stay away from aluminum because it finds its way to your brain and messes things up.  Iron on the other hand is good for you but rust is not too appealing.  Hard chrome plate or replace the shaft with stainless if painting doesn't solve the rust problem.
Brian Cardinal
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anything