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Online Acebird

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2017, 10:02:37 PM »
Unfortunately we don't get to see the whole picture when we give.  It is highly unlikely we don't get something when we give and we aren't told if we get more in return when we give.  There are a lot of strings in politics.
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Online GSF

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2017, 02:37:33 PM »
Walls do not solve the problem, but they make it more manageable

Ditto, Remember all the suicide bombings in Israel? They put a wall up and the bombings went down, way down.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 02:54:19 PM »
>>FYI jeasus did not found the Catholic Church
>You see not all bibles interpret Hebrew the same way.

Well, the New Testament is not written in Hebrew it was written in Koine Greek.  There is not much variation in translations as far as the root meaning.  There is no mention of the Catholic Church in any part of the Bible.  No mention of Lent or Easter (the ressurection, yes, but not Easter).  No mention of Christmas.  No mention of infant baptism.   Of the seven sacraments the Catholic Church has only Baptism (of adults), Communion (Eucharist) and anointing the sick with oil are in the New Testament.  There is no indication that the Church was in charge of Marriage.  There is no confirmation, no reconciliation, no holy orders.  The only references in the New Testament to priests refer to Jesus or to Jewish priests.  You would be hard pressed to prove that Jesus founded the Catholic Church if your only evidence is the Bible...
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Online Acebird

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 05:47:32 PM »
Mike are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is not the first christian religion?
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2017, 06:16:06 PM »
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Mike are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is not the first christian religion?

It is not.  The apostles went out and taught the teachings of Christ.  Those were the first churches and they predate Catholicism.  Johns letters to the 7 churches make no mention of Catholicism or popes or whatever else the Catholic church created.  The early Catholic church went to great lengths to wipe out other Christian sects and much of Catholic dogma is in direct conflict with the bible. 
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

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Online Acebird

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 08:13:36 PM »
Like any religion.  They are created by man with many flaws.  I think many of you missed the point.  All Christian religions and non Christians have a basis of doing good but all think they are better then all the rest.  I don't see it any different than Islam, Jewish or Hindu.  What the US should have going for us is that we accept ALL.  If we change that we will decline.  We should punish the bad but not assume bad because of a religious belief or no belief at all in a supreme being.
Religion has absolutely no business in government.
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Offline Psparr

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Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 08:49:46 PM »
It isn't "In government".
No one can tell anyone else who they can or can't worship, nor how to do it.
That means those in government as well. That means they can speak about their faith, or even suggest they will lead by following Christian values.

Your right, religion has absolutely no business in government. 
So don't go after a cake maker or a photographer for their religious beliefs.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2017, 09:36:31 PM »
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Religion has absolutely no business in government.

you know you can get a copy of the constitution online for free? 

While you are downloading that, and it won't take long, maybe you can give some examples of religion in the federal government?
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline kathyp

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2017, 09:50:10 PM »
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We should punish the bad but not assume bad because of a religious

While it is true that we should not assume that all from any one group are bad, we also should realize that there is a higher probability of bad behavior from some groups.  At this moment, it is Muslims and we have no way to sort them.  In the past we have restricted people from various groups for various reasons.  Some valid, some less so.  We restricted people from Soviet Block countries because so many were spies.  We restricted the Japanese after they bombed us.  We have simply stopped allowing immigration except in very small batches because we needed to assimilate those we had.

Someone, I think one of Trumps sons, used the jelly bean example and was attacked for using it, but it is a good one.  You don't eat the jelly beans if you know that one in the jar is poisoned and you can't tell which one. 

I reject your assertion that stopping immigration or lessening it is damaging.  Immigration and visas should be done in the interest of the host country.  Beyond those we need because of various skills, we don't need immigration at all these days.  That might change as our birth rates go down, but at this moment we could completely halt immigration and do no damage.  We certainly don't need to allow massive invasions of Hondurans.  if they are in trouble there and need to leave it should be a problem for their neighbors.  Same with Syria.  There are plenty of countries around that can take them....although, interestingly, one of the reasons those countries don't want them is because they fear the infiltration of terrorists.

They only way I would amend my policy is if people came here as my kin did.  They got off the boat and had to make their own way.  No welfare, no food stamps, no Medicaid, no housing, heat, electric allowance.  The people who would come under those conditions would truly want to make a go of it here.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2017, 11:48:25 PM »
I saw a pretty funny skit on TV the other day.  They had someone guessing if a name they threw out was an American or an immigrate.  They would say Albbert Einstien and the person would say immigrate, Then they would say jeffery dolmer of the unibomer of tim mccvey and the person would say american.  It was pretty funny.

Hey, bad people are bad and also hard to protect against in a sociaty that says you are innocent untill proved guilty.  It used to really make me mad at work when it was 100 degrees out and they would tell you to wear your safety glasses in places that commen sense said your risk of being hurt in the eye was close to zero.  They would say if it saved one eye it was worth it.  So living twenty years in missery and suffering and tripping hazzard from foggy glasses was all worth it to protect from a barily above zero chance of losing an eye.

We live in a sociaty that more risk from individuals is possible so that there is less risk from the government.

I don't know where the line on immigration should be drawn.  I do think that a wall is stupid cause I can not get over the russian wall being bad and not something we want to emulate.  I don't see how a double standard in thinking is a clear message.

Now don't get me compleetly wrong.  I have my pet peeves also.  I don't like when it is said that illegal  immigrates are justified cause they are doing work that americans won't do.  All I know is that drywallers were getting $17 bucks an hour till illegals started doing it for $8.  Just like all the things I buy from china that I used to buy from here.  I see that Trump signed intent to pull out of nafta today.  I aint mad about that.

The thing about the illegal working for $8 an hour to hang dry wall.  He is probly willing but if he could he would have liked the $17 that was the going rate better but his illegal status does not allow for griping. It will still always be the poor guy that gets the least and unwillingness to work is not always the reason for being poor.

There are definatly things that are wrong with the gov policies that I am not smart enough to fix but I don't think a wall is the answer.  I do think some of the immigration practices and also trade practices can make a differrence.

I think those that get sidetracked with the safety issue are missing the boat a bit.

If you have a lot of people some will be evil and some new ones may come with a bunch of good people and a bunch are already here. 

I was just going to point out a funny tv skitt but guess I got caught up in the subject. :grin:
Cheers
gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 09:44:13 AM »
The thing about the illegal working for $8 an hour to hang dry wall.  He is probly willing but if he could he would have liked the $17 that was the going rate better but his illegal status does not allow for griping. It will still always be the poor guy that gets the least and unwillingness to work is not always the reason for being poor.
What about the granite counter tops that come from China that are half the price of anything made here?  And now look, everybody's got to have them where there would be no way in the world that the middle class would have such a thing because it is a ridiculous frill.  In 10-15 years they will be ripping these out and putting something else in.

I do believe we need immigration because it supports small businesses.  They absolutely cannot survive without them.  It will be an experiment in the making to see what Cuomo's minimum wage hike is going to do to small business in NY. 
Yes Kathy imprisoning the Japanese is exactly the same as banning Muslims.  It didn't protect our citizens then and it won't protect our citizens now.  Why weren't the Germans imprisoned?   My father came to this country when he was 3 years old from Germany.  He was drafted and fought in WWII against the Germans in Italy and France.  Why did our government trust him?  Why weren't all the Germans in this country put in the same prisons the Japanese were?  The only answer I can come up with is that we needed the Germans to fight the Germans.  Seems to me we need the Muslims to fight the radical Muslims.  Isn't that how we do it over there?  And it won't work over here?  That is illogical.
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Online Acebird

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2017, 09:53:06 AM »
I think those that get sidetracked with the safety issue are missing the boat a bit.

gww if you allow common sense to control your safety regulations you will have no safety at all.  If you left it up to common sense to wear a seat belt eventually no one would wear one.  It would start with short trips to the store or gas station and escalate to trips across america.  That is why you have to set a policy and enforce it with no exceptions.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »
>Mike are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is not the first christian religion?

Suggesting?  No.  It decidedly was not.  The first dedicated "church" building was a remodeled house in 240 AD in Syria.  There were many competing views in early Christianity on some fundamental things.  The Roman Catholic Church started in 313 AD
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2017, 12:00:36 PM »
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I do think that a wall is stupid cause I can not get over the russian wall being bad and not something we want to emulate.  I don't see how a double standard in thinking is a clear message.

"The Wall" can be a number of things from a wall to tech.  The place to go for info on that is the border patrol.  They credit the wall in San Diego for helping slow down and direct the flow of illegals.  It is not perfect.  It helps a lot according to them.

Quote
All I know is that drywallers were getting $17 bucks an hour till illegals started doing it for $8.  Just like all the things I buy from china that I used to buy from here.  I see that Trump signed intent to pull out of nafta today.  I aint mad about that.

He pulled out of TPP and plans to do something with NAFTA..renegociate or something.  Subject to change, no doubt  ;-)  why don't we start by enforcing existing laws?  Employers who knowingly hire illegals are breaking it.  You would only need to publicly perp walk a few for the rest to get the message. 

Quote
I think those that get sidetracked with the safety issue are missing the boat a bit.

You are correct that we can grow our own bad guys and that some we let in legally will also be bad.  Illegals begin their time here by breaking the law...so there's that.  Those we are "rescuing" are putting an additional burden on resources. 

I was looking up some numbers the other day.  Only 125 million people in the country are working full time.  We have around 400 million people in the country.  I understand that these 125 million are not paying the entire freight, but you can assume reasonably that a large part of the other millions are not paying federal tax and are probably getting some kind of aid. 

Quote
I do believe we need immigration because it supports small businesses.  They absolutely cannot survive without them.  It will be an experiment in the making to see what Cuomo's minimum wage hike is going to do to small business in NY. 

Can you back up that statement?  I am not disputing it, but on what do you base it?
The NY min wage need not be an experiment.  Look at the impact in other places.

Quote
gww if you allow common sense to control your safety regulations you will have no safety at all.  If you left it up to common sense to wear a seat belt eventually no one would wear one.  It would start with short trips to the store or gas station and escalate to trips across america.  That is why you have to set a policy and enforce it with no exceptions.

Because without Papa government people couldn't take care of themselves?
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2017, 12:38:47 PM »
Kathy
Quote
He pulled out of TPP and plans to do something with NAFTA..renegociate or something.  Subject to change, no doubt  ;-)  why don't we start by enforcing existing laws?  Employers who knowingly hire illegals are breaking it.  You would only need to publicly perp walk a few for the rest to get the message.

I don't dissagree with this however in real life places like tyson chicken sent busses down to mexico and put out a lot of pamplets to fill those busses and brought them back and set them up in places to live and put them to work.  When it is addressed by the gov, there are raids on the people bussed up here and nothing except a day of prodution lost for tyson.  Even when the public knows the bad players, the bad players don't really care.  They take no risk of going to jail, only the poor guy is deported.  I am not sure just calling them out for bad deeds is enough. 

The illegal shouldn't have been here but it is like entrapment for him,  It is like an udercover poliece man who begs somebody to do something bad and then arests him when he finaly does it.

I really don't know the answer, I just know the outcomes that I don't like.  I can see some of the things that helped create the out come but also don't know the proceedure for turning back the clock.

I see an injustus when even an illegal is taken advantage of but also know something needs to be fixed.
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gww

Offline gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2017, 01:02:01 PM »
Ace
I never wear my seat belt unless I am being pulled over.  I grew up with 3 siblings and we did not have car seat laws and when we had to take a truck we rode in the back.  We didn't take two cars.  I think seat belts and helmet laws should be unconstitutional. 

I do know that autos being sold were unsafe and have no issue with it being mandated that they be sold with saftey equipment for the people to use.  I have no issue with educating and even using tax money to do it, the public of the saftey of seat belts.

I do have issue of forcing people to do stuff that they can decide for themselves.  That is a never ending cycle of control.  I don't think that big gulps and bacon fat should be regulated cause we are helping people wether they like it or not.  The bible was mentioned in this thread.  Well in the bible since the great flood, people are only going to live 120 years in a best case sinario.  I say let the people decide how they want to live that 120 years and how many of those 120 years they are willing to give up for what they consider quality of life.  They are not getting out of this world alive and so educate them and then let them decide.

I will never understand how it is a pricipal that I can refuse life saving medical proceedures for myself but can't decide how I want to live my life.  This seems to be another case of circular logic to me.

Just my toughts
gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2017, 02:29:21 PM »
I will never understand how it is a pricipal that I can refuse life saving medical proceedures for myself but can't decide how I want to live my life.  This seems to be another case of circular logic to me.

Just my toughts
gww

This is easy to explain but you may not accept the explanation.  In the case of refusing the medical procedures it only affects you.  But in the case of safety equipment it affects a lot more than you.  You stand a better chance of keeping control of a vehicle if you are warring that harness.  The severity of the accident is much less.  You don't kill anyone else and you don't raise insurance premiums that affect others.  Almost all safety equipment laws are forced upon you because your safety affects someone else.  Pretty much if it didn't no one would care.  You could live in a third world country and no one would care about you using safety equipment.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2017, 03:06:48 PM »
Ace, I have been in 3 very bad wrecks in my lifetime. All 3 put the roof of the car down into the seats. With a seatbelt, any one of the 3 would have killed me. I have never, and will never, use a seatbelt in a vehicle without a roll cage.The fools that passed that law should be put in a mental institution. Even the tiny little smartcar has a roll cage built in. If they were really concerned about safety, that would have been the first safety item required in all vehicles.

Now explain how a helmet on a motorcycle rider can prevent the rider from hurting someone else. The only thing it does is hinder head movement and hearing ability, both being detriments, not help.
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Offline gww

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2017, 04:08:32 PM »
Ace
Quote
This is easy to explain but you may not accept the explanation.  In the case of refusing the medical procedures it only affects you.  But in the case of safety equipment it affects a lot more than you.  You stand a better chance of keeping control of a vehicle if you are warring that harness.  The severity of the accident is much less.  You don't kill anyone else and you don't raise insurance premiums that affect others.

You are correct, I don't accept the explination.  For one, if I accepted the medical treatment rather then refuse it, then that would affect insurance pay out.  It affecting insurance pay out does not take the right of me to decide for myself.

Two, If I need a seat belt then I have already lost control past the point of a seat belt helping me keep control.

Three, The cost of how great the damage is done to a person not wearing a seat belt.  If I am dead, then a funeral is cheaper then medical care almost no matter what kind of medical care it is.  If I have no pain that needs treatment in my life but I end up living in an old folks home for twenty years cause I was healthy, then which really cost everyone the most.  It is easy to leave things out when counting and say head injuries cost this much but that does not count the real cost that might have been had there been no head injury. 

It is circular logic that gives me the decision regaurdless of cost to others over my body when it comes to medical proceedures being done on me but says it is wrong for me to make those decisions in my own life in how I am living it due to supposed cost to others. 

One other thing, If I have not lost control over my vehicle and hurt someone else then I am guilty of doing nothing wrong.  If I have, then I expect punishment.  Murder is against the law but we don't put people in jail cause we think they might commit murder some day with no actions from them that they were atually going to or did act.

Who wants to put up with what other people think are good for you when you are the one who has to live this life you are given.

It is proven scientifically that vegitarians live longer then meat eaters.   

If we really wanted to save everyones money, why not start there and make a law against eating meat.

You can't save everybody and the government should leave some of these decisions to the people that actually have to live that life.

I will never say that everyone has to like onions just cause I like them.  Let them do what makes them happy.

Cheers
gww

 

Online Acebird

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Re: Trump's Cabinet
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2017, 06:09:22 PM »
I am satisfied that there is enough data to support the seat belt law that we have in this state.  I don't know how many other states have this law.  If you choose not to abide by the law you run the risk of a ticket or killing someone including yourself depending on the accident.  The motorcycle helmet is no different than a football helmet it reduces concussions or the severity of concussions.  Are all the football players nuts for wearing them?
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