Unwarranted supercedure cell

[Cindi]

When I put the varroa sticky boards in my colonies on Tuesday I had done a deep inspection on my little colony that I had babied over the winter.  It is going great guns, brood on 4 frames, capped, eggs, larvae .  Looking good.  When I got to the frame in the 7th position, what did I see, a queen cell.  I looked into the queen cell, probably about a 2 day old larvae.  It will be nearly sealed by now, I venture.  I have calculated the days to emergence and I think that if the larvae was actually 2 days old on Tuesday, by next Friday the queen will be emerged/emerging, Friday would be about the 15th day.  So next weekend will be the time when I inspect the hive and see if she was killed in the cell, or if she emerged.  I will check for eggs around Monday or so, if I do not see eggs in the colony, I will know that the virgin queen was victorious.  I know that sometimes when supercedure takes place, the old queen is allowed to live until the virgin queen is mated and laying.  If I don't see eggs, then I will know that the virgin queen emerged and engaged in a fight to the death with the old girl.  I would imagine that a newly emerged queen would be much stronger than an old one. 

I have no clue why these bees think that their queen is not doing a good job.  As far as egg laying, she is performing well.  The only thing that I think would be that she is getting old and is not secreting enough queen pheromone to keep the hive in cohesion and happy, if this is the case, the bees know full well.  We will see.  I am leaving this stuff all in the hands of the bees, they know what they are doing much better than me.  Have a wonderful day, great life and health.  Cindi

[Robo]

I too have had queens superseded for no apparent  reason to me.  Obviously the bees have different criteria than us. 

Are you certain they aren't preparing to swarm? 

[Kirk-o]

You know it dosen't matter if we know it is important that the bees do.Bees are smart let them do there job
kirko

[Michael Bush]

>I have no clue why these bees think that their queen is not doing a good job.

The bees MIGHT be wrong.  You might be wrong.  Given a choice, I'd trust the bees.  You don't know how many drone eggs they clean up behind her.  You don't know how much QMP she makes to hold the hive together.

[doak]

If it is an overwintered hive and is not crowded, Let them do there thing. Do you know how old the queen is? Naturel reasons, being crowded, and harasment are the three main reasons for swarming.
I had a hive that wasen't much good last year. They made it through the winter. It appeared I was going to have to requeen it. When I found a supercede cell I closed it up and didn't open it again for about three weeks. I just added another box to it yesterday. they're boiling.
doak

[Cindi]

Answer to all questions.  The queen is no more than one year old.  She was the mother of a package of bees (4 I hived) last year, she would be no more than one year old plus a little bit.  Carniolan, Australia imported.

I looked deeply for any swarm cells, none.  There was only one cell that had the two day old larva in it.  No more.  I really doubt that they are heading off to swarm with one queen en route.

I will let them be, and as I explained in the earlier post, shall let the bees do their thing. I do not know how much queen substance she is exuding, but my guesses are, it is diminishing, that is why they want to supercede.  I could be wrong, but all things point to this.

We will see.  I am keeping a very close watch on this colony, I have spent money and time to bring them through this past winter and I must admit, successfully.  I honestly thought that they would have gone by the wayside, like the others, but I am still of the belief that the terrarium heater that I put into their lives kept them warm enough that they began to allow the queen to lay eggs in small numbers, as the colony became stronger, they encouraged her to lay more.  It has been a success.  It may be coincidence of the success, but I honestly do doubt that word.  it is extra heat, throughout the period when these little girls needed it most.

Have a wonderful day, great life and good health wishes to all.  Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

Cindi,

If it helps the situatiion you describe is apparently not unusual for 2nd year Aussie bees in the Americas.

The original queen came from a tropical climate and the bees may have decided they need to rear one more in tune with the local weather.   On its face, that may sound like a rediculous statement, but I have noticed that queens from the Southeastern US get superceded alot in the northern USA, so I believe it to be a similar situation.  They are simply climatizing the queen.

[Cindi]

Brian, right, now that does make some good sense.  But then, I would wonder why the bees did not perform supecedure at the end of last summer, when they would require a winter hardy locally produced queen to head into our winter with?  I really wonder why they would wait until this year.

Now I am off to thinking about new and different things.  I am going to consider this very strongly.  In my mind, this queen is doing an amazing job of egg laying.  I think that I am going to use this colony as my experimental one this year.  I am not going to anticipate any honey harvest this year, if some occurs wonderful, if not, that is OK too.

I am considering taking this Carniolan queen from the colony with a couple of frames of brood and make a nuc.  I will let the old colony continue to raise their supercedure queen.  Yes, the more I think about it, the more I am going to do it and see what comes of things.  If the Carnie queen is again superceded in the nuc, then I know that she is a funk.  Yes, I am definitely travelling down this road, actually, today.  Wish me success.  I am thinking that the supecedure queen will be emerging on Friday, so I had best get on with this experimental task.  It is a another year of learning, with "hands on".   Learning, loving life.  Have a wonderful day, great life, great health.  Cindi

[doak]

If you have any other Bees in your area, it may be best to go ahead and let them do there thing and then requeen the colony. Why? because the queen you get from the supercedre is not going to be a pure strain. You most likely will end up with more agressive bees.
I know, it sounds foolish. Rember, all the ferrel/wild bees are 95%+  Italian.
You could requeen with a Corniolan if that is what you want.
doak

[Cindi]

Doak.  Thanks for advice.  I have my mind set about my method and am going to proceed.  I can be rather stubborn when I am off to a new adventure.  If the colony becomes aggressive in any way, by all means I will requeen with a purchased queen.  But, this adventure I must seek out on my own, guidance is always appreciated, but not always listened to  :roll:  Have a wonderful day, great life and good health wishes to all.  Cindi

[Drone]

Cindi,

It sounds like you have a great plan. I hate the thought of a good queen being dispatched by the workers. I picture an angry mob with pitchforks and torches being led by the new virgin queen. Like an insect version of a witch hunt.

Anyway, please keep us updated on the progress of the new queen and the new nuc. This sounds like a great opportunity to observe and learn more about these amazing creatures.

I am a little surprised that there was only one supercedure cell though. Did you inspect all of the frames?

Thanks,

-John

[Brian D. Bray]

1 or 2 supercedure cells are common in the cases of actual supercedure.  In Cindi's area she is problably fairly well isolated from other beekeepers so any queen matings will occur with the drones from that and her other hives.  Aggression is more likely in the event of brother/sister matings due to inbreeding.  Even at that is usually not a problem the 1st generation.

I wish Cindi luck, she is sure to learn a lot and gain experience.  And if she records her experience she can call it research.

[Cindi]

Yep, gonna have some fun.  I have been so busy getting gardens ready with planting greenhouse seedlings that I have not had the chance yet to move the queen and brood frames to the new box yet.  I haven't had time to check and see if the queen is still in the cell.  I am onto that today for sure.  I was anticipating the queen to emerge tomorrow, maybe she has been killed by the old queen, time will be the teller of that tale.  I had checked the hive thoroughly, there was only one queen cell, with a two day old larva in it, Tuesday before last.  I will be telling a story pretty soon about my excursion with the bees.

The new box is awaiting up beside the colony I am going to work with.  It has two frames of honey/pollen, 2 frames partially drawn foundation, 1 frame foundation (giving the bees something to do so they don't get bored), an inner frame feeder, and a piece of styrofoam to reduce the size of the box just a little so the bees don't have much of an area to keep warm.  It will house 8 frames total, with inner feeder.

Brian, yes I am pretty secluded from other beekeepers.  There is only 2 small backyard beekeepers.  One has only 1 colony and the other has about four, they are some distance from my place, so probably the drones the queen will mate with will be from my apiary, (I hope).

My husband finished my tomato greenhouse yesterday, what a humongeous job.  Now I am ready to set in tomato plants that I have been nourturing in the greenhouse, they have been transplanted two times now, each into larger pots, and they are getting pretty mature.  Have a wonderful day, great life, great health.  Cindi