Swarm/supercedure queens

[Cindi]

I am getting the impression that there is a big difference with the quality of the queens produced by the colony under different conditions.

Supercedure or emergency queen rearing by the bees seems to generate queens that are not as big or as high quality as those reared in the case of swarming initiation.

If this impression is correct, then the big question that I must ask is why would "swarm" queens be the preferred by the beekeeper???  Great day. Cindi

[Kirk-o]

I've have seen on the forum here I think that the shape of the emergency cell
isn't as optimum as a swarm cell for some reason but I'll bet Michaerl Bush knows
kieko

[Jorn Johanesson]

Do not confuse the supercedure and the emergency queen. The supercedure is produced in a family not in panic, and thereby taken more care of. You can find just a few in the middle of the frame build on normal eggs. When the new queen has been mated you often can find the new young queen and the old queen work on the same frame "Side By Side".

An emergency queen is a queen build in a hurry when the old queen for some reason is lost. It can be build on a few days old larvae and as such will produce a low quality queen.

Depends on how you look at it a swarm queen can be at low quality too. Depended on how many Swarm cells the bees have to maintain few or many queens in the hive. Swarm queens are also source for hives that swarms. A swarm queen produces swarm queens roughly said, so if you do not want to climb trees replace the swarm queen with a queen with less tendency to swarm.

[Finsky]

The secret of queen breeding is selection like in all plant and animal breeding, and even bacterium, wine yeast and what ever which human use.

Swarming cells and supercedure cells are very good because they have feeded well. But the mainpoint not come true: the selection. Beekeeper have not selected them.

I have taken many times supercedure queens but I have regretted every time next summer.  Every year I may take some swarming queens to make nucs but I change them when I get better queens.  Swarming is natural habit to bees and it is easy inherited.

As far I know, most of hobby beekeepers allow bees raise their new queens. But that is not queen breeding at all. Breeding is active selection.

Many are unsatisfied that "good queens" do not bring honey more than ordinary ones. But reason is on pastures. They give no more nectar than they have. It is vain to catch from nothing.

[Understudy]

...
An emergency queen is a queen build in a hurry when the old queen for some reason is lost. It can be build on a few days old larvae and as such will produce a low quality queen.

Depends on how you look at it a swarm queen can be at low quality too. Depended on how many Swarm cells the bees have to maintain few or many queens in the hive. Swarm queens are also source for hives that swarms. A swarm queen produces swarm queens roughly said, so if you do not want to climb trees replace the swarm queen with a queen with less tendency to swarm.

I am just curious. How is a queen low quality? The procedure as i understand is that the workers make the queen by feeding a very young larvae royal jelly. The timeline to make a queen doesn't change whether it is a swarm queen or a supercedure queen or a  emergency queen. If I am wrong on this please correct me. I understand the differences between a supercedure and swarm queens and even emergency queens. I never thought bees would make a low quality queen, I just thought they made a queen.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Michael Bush]

>Supercedure or emergency queen rearing by the bees seems to generate queens that are not as big or as high quality as those reared in the case of swarming initiation.

This has been much discussed for centuries.  Everyone agrees that both swarm queens are made when the hive is thriving, therefore they are almost always well fed and make good queens (except those who believe they are more likely to be swarmy bees).

Most people will grant that supercedure queens are just as good when made by a good hive when they have plenty of bees and resources.

Most people believe emergency queens are inferior.  IMO sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.  Again, it depends on the age of the larvae and how well fed they are.

>If this impression is correct, then the big question that I must ask is why would "swarm" queens be the preferred by the beekeeper???

Because they are almost guaranteed to be well fed.

Jay Smith says the reason emergency queens aren't as good isn't because they are too old or not well fed but because they are often from old comb with cocoons in the walls and the bees can't tear down the wall:

Emergency queens:

    "It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

    "The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith

[Finsky]

I am just curious. How is a queen low quality? ...... I never thought bees would make a low quality queen, I just thought they made a queen.

The queen quality is the same what you want to bees and hives are. When you change queens, you may change the whole yard during one year.
If you do not care bees' quality, it same what you nurse.

When you bye queens, you bye quality. You surely not accept what ever. But when you have your own queens, they can be what ever.
It is like repairing car, you may repair it with iron wire and clue but you do not want that carage use what ever methods when you pay for work.

The basic is selection. If you take the best queen and take larvae from it, they will be on average better hives than in normal. If you have under 20 hives in yard, it is difficult to keep your stock wanted.

Bees' natural habit is to be agressive and defend their hive. They have tendency to swarm because it is only way how they reproduce themselves.

This is allready two basic ideas which most of beekeeprs accept. If they have dogs and black horses like Michael, people are very sharp on what kind of cedcendants they want.

Hybrid is the mix of two different races and often first generation hybrids are good. But when you take descendants from hybrids the "hybrid power" will disperse and you get wide range of quality.

My holy quality triangle: Good queens, big hives, good pastures.

Your yard carry a gene pole, and if you put hives on line, you may get differencies in desease tolerancy, swarming tendency, pollen gathering, nice to look. The other genepole is around your yard where queens mate with numerous drones.  You may succeed with outer genepole to the first generation F1 but after that genepole is difficult control.

When we had German Blacks, they were first to mate with queens. It was difficult to get good queen quality.

[TwT]

Emergency queens:

    "It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

    "The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith

very well said, a lot of people think emergency queens mostly are bad queen's, the quote MB posted above makes a lot of sense, because you could almost look at grafted queens as emergency queens in some ways the difference being queen cell cups, you are still forcing bee's to raise queens by grafting and that's most of the bee's sold today...... unless you are useing a queen right hive and most queen rearers don't from what I have seen......

[Cindi]

Good knowledge.  I am now of the opinion, that beekeepers should change the foundation fairly often.  Maybe every couple of years so there is not a build up of cocoon material.  It would make sense that the queens would be not as good if they were raised in old cocoon built up cells.  Great day. Cindi

[Finsky]

, because you could almost look at grafted queens as emergency queens in some ways the difference being queen cell cups, you are still forcing bee's to raise queens by grafting

That is not problem. Bees raise so much cells as they feed properly. If you graft 20 larvae, they feed perhaps 5-10.

The key is the age of larva. In emercengy cells first queen emerge after 10 days. When you take the smallest larvae in sunday, first ones emerge as queen in Thursday evening. It is 12 days. Tha larva is feeded 2 days more than emergency  cell.  The more important indicator is the remainings of queen milk on the bottom of queen cell. If it is missing larva have not got enough food.

When you raise queens you learn to se when queens are properly feeded. Question is not at all how to define some term.

Questions are:

How old larva bees start to raise
Does larva get enough food from start to end

First 3 days all worker larvae are feeded with royal jelly. !!!! Question is not hours when you scoohe the larva.

It has bees reseached that if you change first grafted larvae and second larvae will have  enough food, does queens are bigger. Answer is NO.

[Cindi]

Now this is interesting stuff this grafting larvae.  During the second course I took, beekeeping level 2, we focused one day on queen grafting.  What an ordeal.

We were given the grafting tool and told to get the larvae that were no older than 18 hours (to a maximum of 36 hours, no older).  Right!!!  So all the student gave their hand at it.  We grafted 20 or so of these "invisible" larvae into queen cups and gave them to a cell building colony.  Each student had their name put on their bar of cells to see how many cells were drawn out by the bees.

This was an excellent exercise.  I only had 2 out of 20 that the bees worked on.  Obviously when I attempted to graft this larvae that I could not even see, it did not come out with the royal jelly, or I squished it or something.  It was a fun exercise, but very hard to do. 

I think that if I were to ever try grafting again, I would use a headlight tool with magnifying glasses.  I think that grafting goes on the assumption that if you see royal jelly, but cannnot see the larvae, that this is an egg that just hatched hours before, and that is what you want for the bees to raise to queen. 

Before I do any queen raising, I would have to feel justified that I have enough colonies that I would feel that I would need to raise queens.  Right now how I am feeling is that I am only a hobby beekeeper, and that perhaps buying good queens from a local reputable queen breeder would pay off in the end.  I would be guaranteed of good laying characteristics, temperament, qualities that are important to make the apiary run quietly and be a nice place to go.

I had dealings with a hot colony last year.  It was a swarm that I had caught the summer before.  This colony was so protective, it gave me the willies to have to go and work with them.  They were very cranky and protective.  When I saw that swarm issue from them, I said good riddence to bad rubbish, and let them go.  I gave them a new queen from one of the other colonies that I had raised some queen from and they were a little bit nicer, but still pretty cranky.  Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

to get the larvae that were no older than 18 hours (to a maximum of 36 hours, no older). 

I do not know how old larva is. I take so small as I see I cannot take smaller!

I make with knife a charp stich from bush and move the larva with it.  Operation is not difficult. Ofcouse you must se what you are doing.

AND DONT GIVE SUN SHINE TO LARVAE

[Cindi]

Finsky, about the sharp stick.  Is there not a worry that you might stab the larva with it?  It would have to be a very tiny thin stick and what if it went through the bottom of the cell? 

That is admirable.  You must be outside working to get the larva out of the cell.  The bright sunshine would dry up the larva, is that why you say not to let sunshine on larvae?  Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

what if it went through the bottom of the cell? 

The stick point is like hair and then I twist it that it forms a hook or shovel. If I am unsure if I have violated the larva, I take a new or I put two larvae into cell. Bees take away extra. Larva attach to the stick point and it is easy to see that it will stay onto royal jelly.

I have used a bush which have not strong odour like some does.

I move larvae in the shadow of hive.

[Cindi]

what if it went through the bottom of the cell? 

The stick point is like hair and then I twist it that it forms a hook or shovel. If I am unsure if I have violated the larva, I take a new or I put two larvae into cell. Bees take away extra. Larva attach to the stick point and it is easy to see that it will stay onto royal jelly.I have used a bush which have not strong odour like some does. I move larvae in the shadow of hive.

Finsky, now that is VERY interesting.  I wonder what type of bush would be a good stick for use, that does not have strong smell.  Do you know what species is the bush that you take the stick from.  I think that alder is most common here in the apiary area, and I don't think that it smells bad.  Weeping willow tree is a very big tree in my home yard, that would probably make a nice little stick.  Now if I were to take a cottonwood branch, that would be horrible.  Boy do they ever stink!!!  I cannot stand it when this tree is cut down.  When we did land clearing to plant grasses and clover many cottonwoods were removed and the smell was obnoxious, yuck!!!

When you graft with the stick, do you moisten the end of it in your mouth to keep it pliable or does it stay soft enough to work with?  I know that we were taught to moisten the grafting tool in our mouth prior to removing larvae, this also helps to warm up the tool as well, so not as to chill the larvae. 

So much to learn, quest for knowledge.  Great day.  Cindi

[TwT]

That is not problem. Bees raise so much cells as they feed properly. If you graft 20 larvae, they feed perhaps 5-10.

,

now you know you have seen frames with 50 cell cups on them and everyone be drawn out and capped this is why when making a cell builder hive you fill it up with bee's, the more bee's to care for the larva the more queens they will raise, and if there isn't a flow going on then you feed 1-1 sugar syrup so the bee's can make the royal jelly to have well feed queen larva...

The key is the age of larva. In emercengy cells first queen emerge after 10 days.  

yeah I know your talking about not having a choose on the age of larva being feed, I understand this but isn't this only because the first queen hatches kills the others, now if you were raising a single queen you wouldn't worry about this, if she is no good the bee's will replace her, a lot of grafted queen get replaced with in a year also.... now the old timers and still some today like to go into winter with a young queen, so in July or august they go open there hives and pinch the queens heads off, that fall they have young queens going into winter, now why if some one wants to raise a queen for a 1 hive expansion or a few more they should go buy a queen or more when if they have the time they can raise one them selves (or let the bee's do it)? that's like saying no more walk-away splits? I know there has to be some still do pinch heads off today..... There are so many ways to Raise queens, not every method will make a perfect queen  but also not every method will always have perfect queens. I am one that believes that it is possible to raise queens in many ways, just need to have most everything right ... there are so many things that have to be right when raising queens in any fashion.....  a lot of new beekeepers dont ever realise that there hive might have raised a queen (unless its a marked queen) just by them doing inspection and killing the queen with the frames....... I know on average the emergency queens might not be top quality but that's also to do with timing like if a flow is going on then or not, now when someone does this on purpose is this still like a emergency queen or a type of queen raising by the  beekeeper?? just picking you Mellon.... ok My ole buddy Finsky, fire away!!!!!

[Cindi]

Twt, why on earth would one take the time to pinch off the head of the queen bee?  That seems almost a brutal way to end a life.  I think that if they lose the head, they still live for some time.  Wouldn't it be easier just to take her away and squish her really quickly.

Maybe there is some really important reason for pinching her head off.  Please tell me why.  This is a curious statement and I would love to know the reasoning behind it.  Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

Twt, why on earth would one take the time to pinch off the head of the queen bee? 

I never do that. I crush the middle thorax.

[TwT]

Twt, why on earth would one take the time to pinch off the head of the queen bee? 

 well Cindi, its more of a figure of speech, most just squish her were ever they grab her

[Finsky]

yeah ..............
.................I   just picking you Mellon.... ok My ole buddy Finsky, fire away!!!!!

Like a Mississippi of thoughts........load and lock