Newbee question on where to locate hive

[Bee Curious]

I am planning on setting up my first hive next spring and am busy reading everything be in books and online.  I live in a suburb, with a small lot, 30' wide.  My back yard has chain link fence 4' high on the two sides that abut neighbors, and the back of the lot has a 6' high cedar fence (which wraps around the corners about 8'), with an alley on the other side of this fence.  I am planning on putting my hive near the back corner and using some rolled bamboo fencing zip-tied to the chain link to disguise my hive from the side.  I don't want to make my neighbors nervous, seeing bees flying around and I do want to make my bees fly high when they come and go so they don't run into children or cars in the alley.  My question is, is there any problem with facing the hive entrance toward the 6' high wood fence, with the hive located about 4-5' from the fence? I would have easy access to the sides and rear of the hive to work the hive.  I wouldn't be able to easily watch the hive entrance, except by getting close and looking from the side.  What are the issues of facing the hive entrance toward a fence like this?

[AllenF]

No problem at all.   Bees will leave the hive and fly up and over your fence.   

[beek1951]

I would advise, in your case, facing the cedar wall at a distnce of about 6 feet. It makes the bees that fly out, go up and are less of an annoyance to neighbors.
They adjust well to this flight pattern and don't mind it at all. Depending on sunup/sunset orientation. You want the entrance somewhere Sout, East or Southeast

[Beregondo]

My first hive faced the side of a 2 1/2 story building and was only 18-20 inches away from it.

When the bees did orientation flights, they'd zig zag back and forth, gradually climbing, until they go to the top of the wall.
Most of the foragers would do a U turn and climb at about 45 degrees upward as they left.
Being close to the wall didn't seem to bother the bees at all.

I have a yard now with several hives facing a 2 the end of a 2 story barn, about 6 feet away.
They do the same climbing U turn when leaving.

Being near a wall doesn't seem to bother the bees at all, and tends to keep their flight pattern overhead and not in conflict with anyone walking near the sides or rear of the hive.

I think you are wise to place your hives facing the fence, and that it will help minimize problems with your neighbors.

[Bee Curious]

It's great to hear you can put the hive as close as 20" away, but I guess I'll aim for 6' away in order to encourage the bees to fly over fence and the alley, not back over my (or my neighbor's) property.  That spot does face east and has southern exposure as well. 

I'd considered angling it to face southeast, but that would face the area we use for the dog's potty spot and that just wouldn't be nice to the dog-to-be (our beloved standard poodle passed away, and we're planning on getting another.)  I will point the hive east toward the fence.

Thanks for all your experiences and advice.  I love this forum already.  I've learned so much reading current and past posts.

[BeeMaster2]

I have my bees in my back yard, opening to the south. There are no fences or walls in front of them but they do have a canopy of trees. They come out of the hive and climb at a 50 degree angle to go out a hole in the trees. They could stay low and go to the east but seldom do. If they are going east, they go up to the hole and then turn east.
Jim

[FRAMEshift]

Facing the cedar fence is a good idea.  I think east is as good as south.  The other thing to consider is having some afternoon shade.  Is that possible?

[Intheswamp]

Facing the hive towards the fence sounds good.  But, remember that that doesn't necessarily mean the bees will *always* fly in that direction...if that nice clover patch they find is in the opposite direction from the direction the hive is pointed in they will happily do a u-turn and head to it back over your property and anybody elses...hopefully at that point they will have altitude to pass overhead.   In an urban I would imagine a tall obstacle all the way around the hive would work in getting the bees up higher in the air no matter which direction they head.  Having said all of that, there are plenty of beeks who keep bees in the city without a full enclosure.

One thing you might want to do is check your local laws and be sure that you are allowed to have bees in your town.  30' seems small to me (I've lived in the country most of my life) and I thought I'd mention that a colony of bees swarming will fill up 30' quickly with flying bees.

Do the research, check restrictions, check logistics, and have fun with the bees.  :)
Ed

[Bee Curious]

FRAMEshift, you make a good point about afternoon shade.  I'm thinking of wrapping that bamboo fence not only along the chainlink fence, but making a right angle turn and running it about 6' perpendicular to the chainlink, creating a little enclosure for the hive (cedar fence to the east side of the hive, cedar and chainlink on the north side--with bamboo over the chainlink(===)--and then a little bamboo section to shield the hive from prying eyes and the west wind a bit, as well as give shade for lower afternoon sun.  I don't know if this line drawing will come out:

neighbor yard
 =========_________
                        |              |
                        |    Hive   | alley
                                       |
                                       |


Intheswamp: My bad--my lot is 40' wide, still not that big, is it?  I wish it were bigger and not so urban--I'd love to have chickens and mini goats.  The back yard with the most flowers/veggies on the block happens to be mine, so I have a feeling the girls will hang out close to home rather than visit my neighbors.  There is no flowering planting along the fence with my neighbor that I'm concerned about (they have kids that play in the yard.)  I'm really the only gardener on the block, come to think of it. 

I have called my municipality to inquire and as of now they have no regulations in place regarding bees, except to register the hive with the state.  They said they've had quite a few inquiries this year.  I know that Chicago allows hives (they even have hives on the green roof at City Hall!), as does Evanston, the suburb adjacent to mine.

I intend to play it low key, and try to prevent my bees from being a nuisance to anyone else by providing water  (so they don't visit any kiddie pools on the block) and encouraging them to fly high.  I'm even going to paint the hive sage green to blend in with the Russian Sage plants that surround the proposed hive area.

[beek1951]

Stealth Beekeeping!

[Intheswamp]

BC, it sounds like you have a nice place.  I've always had great intentions for my yard but just never have gotten to the "hey, nice yard" comment on my yard...more like "Hey! Are you getting ready for EPA herbicide trials?" :-\  Anyhow.... :)

What I was getting at about swarms and the size of your yard/space was that you need to study and be prepared for them.  I have a great respect for urban beeks that can make keeping honey bees work beside neighbors on one or more sides of them.  When the bees swarm it will be a 5-10 minute deal (in my experience) while there is a cloud of bees in the air.  The cloud of bees may stay in the vicinity or the cloud may drift several hundred feet until they start collecting on a tree limb, house wall, a car, bicycle, in the briars (my bee's favorite place  :roll: ), etc.,.  Be prepared with knowledge and extra equipment to capture the swarm in the case you are fortunate enough to be at home when (not if) it happens.  Of course, a more important item would be to study up on swarm *prevention* and the different thoughts and methods pertaining to it.  But, even with the best beek...there will be an occasional swarm.

Good move on checking in with the authorities!  Sounds like you are in a relatively "bee friendly" area. 

I'm not so sure I would want to try stealth beekeeping unless you absolutely have a spot that will be non-viewable by neighbors and people passing by.  Plus, when you "suit up" to go check your bees and you're walking across the backyard in something that makes you look like a space alien it's going to kind of tip them off, unless, of course, you have a privacy fence completely surrounding the backyard. ??  I would think suddenly seeing someone in a bee veil would be more unnerving than knowing beforehand that you might see someone in one and then seeing them...it seems that when we're forewarned about something we tend to be only slightly surprised (if we are at all) when we encounter that thing.

The high fence/screen is good to get them "up and away" from people but eventually the neighbors are going to find out if you're in as close proximity to them as it sounds.  Are you and your neighbors amiable and get along with each other?  Ever had a meal with each other? 

I'm not trying to throw a damper on anything, but just throwing possibilities at you.

*Definitely* set them up with some water.  Have it already set up and "aging" even before you get your bees.  Better yet, have two sources...one inside the confines of your blind and one elsewhere in your yard.  Use something somewhat large and be sure to have floating items in it for the bees to land on and drink from or build the water basin with a sloping "shoreline" of gravel or whatever.  Put a little table salt in the water.  If you have a pond close by where you can snag a couple of milk jugs of water all along to "sweeten" the water all the better.  Swimming pool water and water from water softener backflows have been stated as being attractive to bees.  Getting the bees to fixate on *your* water supply is a big PLUS for you.  Even if you get them using your water 99% of the time there will always be the 1% that don't, it's just bees being bees. ;)

BTW, how many hives are you going to be working with?

Take care,
Ed

[Bee Curious]

BC, it sounds like you have a nice place.  I've always had great intentions for my yard but just never have gotten to the "hey, nice yard" comment on my yard

Over the last few years, I've gone about as far as I can with my yard, and it's really a delight to me.  I have a few semi-tropical plants in big pots that I take the trouble to overwinter indoors because I like them.  I have a huge Magnolia tree, and you know what they say: "When life hands you shade, become a shade gardener!" Hence, my hosta collection.  :)

What I was getting at about swarms and the size of your yard/space was that you need to study and be prepared for them.  ...Of course, a more important item would be to study up on swarm *prevention* and the different thoughts and methods pertaining to it.  But, even with the best beek...there will be an occasional swarm.

I hear you, and I have been reading about keeping the bees happy at home and preventing swarms.  My neighbors across the alley have some huge (at least 45' high) trees, and if the swarm went up there, I don't think there'd be much chance of retrieving them.  But, I was thinking of having a nuc on hand in case.  Would that be the right thing to use?


I'm not so sure I would want to try stealth beekeeping unless you absolutely have a spot that will be non-viewable by neighbors and people passing by.  ...suddenly seeing someone in a bee veil would be more unnerving ...it seems that when we're forewarned about something we tend to be only slightly surprised (if we are at all) when we encounter that thing.


I am not trying to hide the hive per se, but the family next door have a bunch of wild little kids and I kind of want to fly below the radar as far as the kids are concerned.  I'd ultimately like to give a bee class for the kids, with them on the other side of the chain link fence from me, so they can't t do anything dangerous.  I'll talk to the parents in advance.  They are nice people, and I'd like to make sure no one has a bee venom allergy.  We have a lot of wasps and even honey and bumble bees in the neighborhood, and I haven't observed any aversion by this family, though I did see the wild first grade boy swing his baseball bat at a flying insect (which is why I want to keep my hive below the radar, but not a secret.)


*Definitely* set them up with some water.  Have it already set up and "aging" even before you get your bees.  Better yet, have two sources...

I have a birdbath near my back door, with some rocks in it, as many insects visit it already.  I intend to put something right at the hive too.  I like your pond water suggestion.  I have read that bees like anything but fresh tap water best.  And that they like water off of a surface better than standing water.  I was considering hanging up some sort of refillable container with a pin hole in it, to drip water down a board, with something at the bottom to catch the runoff.  Too elaborate?  Do bees need water in winter or does snowmelt suffice if they have a warm day in late winter?

BTW, how many hives are you going to be working with?

I intend to start with one and really, I think my lot size & proximity to neighbors shouldn't have more than two hives.  I just want to do my little part for bees and pollinating my little part of the world.

[beek1951]

Handing out samples (6-8 oz) to your neighbors at the end of your first harvest
and introducing yourself as a beekeeper and kinda making a note of their bee
allergies is good info. Your immediate neighborhood should be sufficient and
goes a long way toward good will and understanding.

[Intheswamp]

That huge magnolia tree will be buzzing with bees! ;)  Nice honey bee plant. :)

45' tall trees....nah, you won't have to worry about retrieving swarms up that high, unless, of course you have a good 12-gauge shotgun with a tight pattern to shoot the limb off.  :-D  That high up the bees shouldn't bother anybody.  BUT...the initial swarm where they issue from the hive and there's a cloud of bees from a foot or so off the ground on up to 15-20(?) is what makes folks hurt themselves (the bees are pretty docile at that time and about the only way to get stung is to mash one against your body.  I would have something bigger than a nuc....at least a medium box or two.  Which makes me ask yet another question...are you going with all mediums?  Eight or ten frame boxes?

I understand your desire to keep the bees out of harm's way.  I had a nice place on top of a hill right beside my house that I wanted to put my hives.  But, it was visible from a state highway and I was worried about vandalism so they went behind the hill and down a north-facing hillside.  So far it has worked fine.  In an urban setting I would think you need a solid enclosure surrounding the hive(s) with a lock on the gate.  Kids will be kids and some of them are more mischievous than others. ;(  A clear view of the hives might be too tempting to resist a thrown rock or twenty.  I'm not saying that that would happen, just throwing it out there at you.  A 6' tall cubicle made of security fencing would probably work pretty good.  You've got the right idea...out of sight, out of mind.

Sounds like you've got some good ideas on water for the bees.  Your idea of a dripping container with a catch basin should work.  The bees will take the water off of a wet surface or directly pull it from standing water.  I took some pictures of bees standing on duckweed with their tongues going down between the leaves of the duckweed into the water.  They'll take water either way.  Do you have an air-conditioning unit that drains condensation outside the house?...they'll work that moisture, too.  I'm not sure about winter water use.

Two hives sounds good.  That will give you two to compare progress.  And, if they're managed right and you deal with wax moths, shb, and mites sufficiently those two hives can give you *plenty* of honey. :)

I know you want to help the bees, but go ahead and shoot for honey production.  By focusing on a good crop of honey you will be encouraging a strong, vibrant colony of bees.  A win-win situation for you *and* the bees. ;)

Best wishes, sounds like you're well on your way!
Ed

[Bee Curious]

That huge magnolia tree will be buzzing with bees! ;)  Nice honey bee plant. :)
...(the bees are pretty docile at that time and about the only way to get stung is to mash one against your body.  I would have something bigger than a nuc....at least a medium box or two.  Which makes me ask yet another question...are you going with all mediums?  Eight or ten frame boxes?

As of right now, and subject to change as I learn more, I'm leaning to all mediums, possibly 9 frames in a ten frame box?  I still have to read more and assimilate all the info that I'm reading.  

... In an urban setting I would think you need a solid enclosure surrounding the hive(s) with a lock on the gate.  Kids will be kids and some of them are more mischievous than others. ;(  A clear view of the hives might be too tempting to resist a thrown rock or twenty.  

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.  I doubt most people around here would even recognize a bee hive, but I'll make it as invisible as I can.  Our back gate in the 6' cedar fence can't be opened from the outside (unless you know the secret) and we can hear the front gate open from in the house. All the neighbor kids have been trained to ring our doorbell if their ball goes in our yard, and they'll wait til we get home, if we're out.   Both gates are posted Beware of Dog (because of our late and great attack poodle.)  I will post a "Danger Bees  :evil:" sign at the entrance to my blind.

....  Do you have an air-conditioning unit that drains condensation outside the house?...they'll work that moisture, too.  I'm not sure about winter water use.

Nope, central air unit drains indoors in the basement.  I'll make a note to research winter water issues.

Two hives sounds good.  ...I know you want to help the bees, but go ahead and shoot for honey production.  By focusing on a good crop of honey you will be encouraging a strong, vibrant colony of bees.  A win-win situation for you *and* the bees. ;)

I barely have my husband convinced that bees would be good in the garden, so I'll start with one.  But you know how things happen..pretty soon there could be two hives--which is why I'm going to make a double wide hive stand.  I'll tell Hubby, it's so I'll have room to set down my tools and smoker.   :lau:

[Intheswamp]

Looks like you have some plans, now to implement them, eh? :)

I'm using 8-frame medium equipment, and it seems to work for me.  It is more expensive to go with 8-frame equipment because the equipment expense is usually around the same cost as 10-frame equipment.  But, if you are going to have a limited number of hives then the added expense can be worth the lighter weight boxes.  It is definitely a weight lifting choice. :)  Just a thought.

Also, I'm not so sure about a DANGER sign associated with your bees.  That is stating, admitting, insinuating, whatever, that your bees will/can attack people.  I don't know that that would be good to be posted in a liability situation.  It's the "KEEP OUT - BAD DOG" sign situation...somebody gets bit and the owner has already admitted that the dog was a danger.  I know and you know that the signs are to keep people away and out of harm's way, but others can see it as an admission of prior knowledge and guilt.  I really don't know what to tell you on this but wanted to throw that at you...maybe something on the gate/door that says "Honeybees' Home Inside!" with a picture of a smiling, happy bee...with a stinger on her rear end.  Or, maybe you've got it right and a simple danger sign would be ok....I may be overly lawsuit concerned.  :?  I think I would leave the Beware of Dog signs up, though. ;)

Work with your husband...reel him in slowly.  :-D

Best wishes,
Ed

[Bee Curious]

Also, I'm not so sure about a DANGER sign associated with your bees.  That is stating, admitting, insinuating, whatever, that your bees will/can attack people.  I don't know that that would be good to be posted in a liability situation.  It's the "KEEP OUT - BAD DOG" sign situation...somebody gets bit and the owner has already admitted that the dog was a danger.  I know and you know that the signs are to keep people away and out of harm's way, but others can see it as an admission of prior knowledge and guilt.  I really don't know what to tell you on this but wanted to throw that at you...maybe something on the gate/door that says "Honeybees' Home Inside!" with a picture of a smiling, happy bee...with a stinger on her rear end.  Or, maybe you've got it right and a simple danger sign would be ok....I may be overly lawsuit concerned.  :?  I think I would leave the Beware of Dog signs up, though. ;)

I, too, am very wary of our litigious society.  If someone were in my yard, it would either be with permission or trespassing.  If they are trespassing, and the bees mess with them AFTER they are warned that there are bees there by a sign---I doubt they'd have a leg to stand on, legally.  If it were a meter reader, or someone with implied permission, like someone roofing my house, I'd like them to know that the bee blind is an area they may not want to explore.   The last group, with permission, would either be with a member of my family, or would have been instructed to stay out of that corner.   I just looked in the Dadant catalog and I like the wording on their sign: "CAUTION  Honey Bees At Work."  The sign would be visible only to people already in the yard, entering the bee area.