Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Georgia Boy on March 25, 2013, 10:22:46 pm
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I want to use top entrances.
Is it possible to do that with the inner and telescoping covers in place or do you need to change the top altogether?
Open to all suggestions.
The old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" might apply here and be helpful.
Thanks
David
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You can put a shim between the top box and the next one and have a space cut out in its perimeter that they can use as a top entrance and keep your telescoping covers.
Bailey
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I have a notch cut into one side,top or bottom, of the board around the inner cover on three sides, and the telescoping top is a little larger than the top. One or two sides would probably be enough. Good luck GB
Since I also have a bottom entrance in the winter I close off notchs except the southern one.
Joe
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http://www.bushfarms.com/images/EightTenEightHives.jpg (http://www.bushfarms.com/images/EightTenEightHives.jpg)
The hive on the left in the picture has a widened notch in the inner cover, some #8 hardware cloth over the hole in the inner cover, an empty box on top and a cover on top of that...
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Thanks for you help guys.
David
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I use top entrances cut into my inner covers 3/4 inch.
Keep in mind that during hard times such as drought situations a top entrance can lead to robbing.
In that case add #8 screen wire to it.
It really aids in ventilation.
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I drilled 4 small holes through the side of the inner cover, 2 in front and 2 in back or just make a 1 inch frame (with hole sand use it as a spacer)
To block the holes I just use those small corks that you use in test tubes. They are cheap. So During the flow all the holes are open. In winter I can plug them up.
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Top? Bottom? I like the middle :-D
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Hives/Jumbo%20Hives/jumbohiveinNov.jpg) (http://s1082.photobucket.com/user/MichiganBee/media/Bee%20Hives/Jumbo%20Hives/jumbohiveinNov.jpg.html)
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Done with being diplomatic
Top entrances are the workof the devil.
You are dramatically increasing heat loss. This is bad in winter and summer.
Everything the bees do needs energy and water and you throw it out with a top entrance.
Top entrances are Apicide. Every watt of heat loss is a 100 bees a day!
Varoa reduce their breeding when its warmer and more humid, but U.S. beek practice wants to keep Bees in cold low humidity???
You force bees to cluster from early fall to late spring when they only need to cluster a few days a year (Even in Michigan, how many days are below -25C -13F )
Bees evolved in heavily insulated trees and have behaviuor to seek out bottom entrances if they can get them, but of course U.S. beekeepers know better
because the laws of physics dont apply to them, So they put bees in hives a tenth of the thickness in a tree and then open the top!!!
Come spring the bees need lots of heat to ripen the honey... Ahh beeks know better open the top and lose the heat.
Come late summer beeks put the hives in full sunshine and because they are thin wood they grill the bees so they then need lots of energy to cool the hive.
CCD is U.S. Specific because U,S. Beekeepers are pushing their bees, so often, so close to the edge, that anything else send them over in to the abyss.
U.S. Bee colony losses are really down to U.S. Bee keepers keeping their bees on the edge of a thermal cliff.
Rant done ... Said the piece that been boiling inside for over a year!
you need to improve the thermal conductivity of your hives to that of a tree nest , THATS a factor 10 from where you are now
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you need to improve the thermal conductivity of your hives to that of a tree nest , THATS a factor 10 from where you are now
I was thinking about the insulation of trees, porches, walls, chimneys and other places bees build in the wild. While thinking about that, I was trying to come up with ways to increase the insulation properties of a hive. Right now, the best I can come up with is using thinner wood and double the walls with a piece of foam insulation sandwiched between them. Spray foam with wooden molding over it will take care of the corners. It's a work in progress, I'm sure many others thought of the same thing and hit a snag that I haven't seen yet.
As far as to entrances, I don't know how much snow you get or how high from the ground your hives are, but in northern and central US, we can expect 2 feet or more of snow. Having the only entrance buried for a day or three could be very bad news for the bees.
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Rant done ... Said the piece that been boiling inside for over a year!
It’s not healthy to be boiling inside for a year! Glad you got that off your chest.
I ran around 35 hives over winter many with a bottom only entrance/vent to form a “heat bubble”. I’ve run hives with a mixtures in the past, but not 35. So this past winter was a bigger sample size. I did successfully overwinter 4 frame medium nucs in Michigan with the heat bubble design. I agree it is probably more thermally efficient (I wasn’t instrumented), but there was a LOT of condensation in those hives. The hives that didn’t make it were a complete moldy mess. The hives that did make it, were moldy on the outer frames. The top vented hives were done dry. I see the same thing in human bathrooms. No top vent and you have mold growing all over the place.
Another strike I have against the heat bubble approach is it works too well in the spring. I’ve already got bees bearding in those hives and it’s barely spring here. It was snowing last week! Hives should not be bearding already. We’re in mid bloom of the willows. The hives just get too hot in the spring, summer, and fall. This is very bad news for the bees when a cold rain occurs and catches them outside.
I also had some nucs croak from the bottom entrances getting clogged up with dead bees. That NEVER happens with a top entrance.
A bottom entrance and heat bubble probably are more thermally efficient, but IMO there are other things to consider too.
Personally I don’t like a top entrance in the summer. I prefer a mid entrance. As soon as you remove the top from a top entrance hive, you have a gazzilion bees flying around you looking for their entrance that suddenly doesn't exist. :? That doesn’t phase some beeks, but I a little more order. ;)
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This is the top entrances that I use.
http://www.viddler.com/v/4169aac7 (http://www.viddler.com/v/4169aac7)
The if you like and insulated hives why not try a Beemax hive ???
http://www.betterbee.com/Products/BeeMax-Hive-Kits (http://www.betterbee.com/Products/BeeMax-Hive-Kits)
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=940 (http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=940)
They're are many topics on this form about Beemax just do a search this is just one I found.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19391.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19391.0.html)
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Why not? Because I can buy a whole 4’x8’ sheet of polystyrene for the same price as one commercial hive body. I can make about 8 hive bodies per sheet of foam. The lower density building polystyrene is probably a better insulator too (higher R value). All this doesn’t even take into account the cost of shipping bulky foam across the country.
If I were commercial and could deduct the capital costs out over time, the more durable commercial units would make more sense. Then again if I were commercial, it might make more business sense to winter the bees in the south and not worry about winter in the first place :-D
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Georgia Boy, wow a lot of info here. Here is my two cents: I put 2 screws into one end of my inter cover with 1/2" not screwed in. I put the side with the screws in it down for the summer (my top entrance) and up (facing the outer cover) for the winter. I have only been using this method successfully for about 17 years and with using the screws, I do not have to mess with the shims as I did before. -Mike
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CCD exclusive to US? I think not. EU says they banned neonics because of it.Or is the EU in the US?
As far as insulated hives ,they are available, look up Beemax hives from Betterbee. I prefer their telescoping tops to the standard tin over wood tops on a standard hive.
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Sorry Jim, I missed the part of your post about Beemax.
And Georgiaboy, I have two hives side by side in the yard. One hive comes and goes exclusively out the bottom. The other prefers coming and going out from the notch in the inner cover. This is their choice. Both hives have the option to exit top or bottom.
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Come late summer beeks put the hives in full sunshine and because they are thin wood they grill the bees so they then need lots of energy to cool the hive.
Well, because of physics, I'm considering going to top entrances. I'm basing this on the idea that the bees can make the hive cooler than the outside air. If you have a container of cool air with a hole in the bottom of it, the cool air will "fall out". You could have a container with a hole in the top and the cool air would stay in it for a longer time. So, by having a top entrance rather than a bottom entrance in the summer, it seems reasonable to me that it would be easier to maintain a cooler environment based upon the laws of physics.
Then, there's the issue of water vapor rising. It's much harder to move warm moist air down than to let it out the top like BlueBee said about bathrooms. Even when the temperatures are in the 60s, I see bees at the bottom entrance fanning their wings like they're trying to evaporate the moisture out of the honey they brought in.
So with just those two reasons alone, I am looking at using top entrances. From what I've read, too much heat and too much moisture are bigger problems than not enough heat in the winter. Then there's the grass, the mice, the skunks, and the snow. True, locating your hive 30 feet up in a hollow tree would be better - for the bees. But since that's not so convenient for the beekeeper, having top entrances when you locate hives near the ground seems better than bottom entrances. A middle entrance may work, too, but not sure how the convection currents would work out. Locating a middle entrance above the brood would help with cooling the brood and the honey would be no worse off than just having a bottom entrance.
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In winter they need to move the moisture out. In summer they need to move both heat and moisture out so they can get dry air to evaporate more water to cool the hive. I think you are correct in your view that both are much easier with a top entrance.
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Why not? Because I can buy a whole 4’x8’ sheet of polystyrene for the same price as one commercial hive body. I can make about 8 hive bodies per sheet of foam. The lower density building polystyrene is probably a better insulator too (higher R value). All this doesn’t even take into account the cost of shipping bulky foam across the country.
If I were commercial and could deduct the capital costs out over time, the more durable commercial units would make more sense. Then again if I were commercial, it might make more business sense to winter the bees in the south and not worry about winter in the first place :-D
<The lower density building polystyrene>
Is not the same material has the Beemax
<shipping bulky foam across the country>
If you look at my post Dadant all so sell Beemax at all branchs and all so in Alblon,MI.
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=940 (http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=940)
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Duane, that was a nicely stated post IMO. X:X
Jim, thanks for the link. Albion, MI is 2 hours south of me though. In all likely hood the BeeMax hive is probably superior to my homemade ones in many ways, but you know us beeks; we can be stubborn. :-D
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Here is how I have been doing it:
(http://s15.postimg.org/v01sq5fs7/Capture.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/v01sq5fs7/)
(http://s23.postimg.org/5tgy3nbh3/DSCF3922.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5tgy3nbh3/)
Just shims stapled to a piece of ply. In the winter I reduce the entrance with more shim material. Works great! I would never go back to bottom entrances.
Alfred
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How do folks get surplus honey supers with top entrances? I tried these because to the advocacy of the proponents, but the brood nest moved to the top. Most hives were 3 or 4 stacks (deep, deep, medium) or (deep, medium x 3). In all cases, the bottom of the hive was abandoned (during summer dearth), as the brood nest moved up.
Practically, it seems difficult to get solid honey supers that can be lifted off, and can be cleared of bees easily. I don't want to unstack whole hives and poke through frames looking for brood-free, capped honey. My bees are defensive, aggressive in the late summer, and unstacking a hive was asking for unpleasant chaos.
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Hence my mid entrance :-D
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I suppose it matters where you live.
Here in south Florida, the hives get hot. I keep mine in partial shade and with screen bottoms all years round. The bees seem to do alright. Anyone here ever measure the temperature in their hives with a thermocouple? Anyone know what the ideal temperature range should be?
Just curious.
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Use all Mediums. Then when it is time to harvest just take the frames with honey and move the frames with brood down. All mediums allows you to move anything anywhere.
Alfred
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Bees evolved in heavily insulated trees and have behaviuor to seek out bottom entrances if they can get them
The other night I was reading Seeley's Honeybee Democracy, and after much study he came to the conclusion that bees prefer a top entrance out in the wild. Also, Gallop in the ABJ way back in 1867 ( www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm) ) concluded also that top entrances have better outcomes in the wild. Is that not the case?
I'm just starting my second year as a beek, and am considering converting over to a top entrance based on these observations, and comments in this forum (of course).
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Alfred suggested going through frames one-by-one to harvest honey. **Boggle** This means you hare handling individual frames at least twice in the field surrounded by summer dearth angry bees as you tear into their brood nest, as opposed to fuming off a super (I use cheap artificial almond extract), and moving a full super to the honey-house. Imagine doing this 100 times. The work is at least 20x that of moving a full super, and the aggravation to man and insect is 100x times. Fine in theory, but get real folks-- thats not honey production, that is insect and human torture.
Use all Mediums. Then when it is time to harvest just take the frames with honey and move the frames with brood down.
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Alfred suggested going through frames one-by-one to harvest honey. **Boggle** This means you hare handling individual frames at least twice in the field surrounded by summer dearth angry bees as you tear into their brood nest, as opposed to fuming off a super (I use cheap artificial almond extract), and moving a full super to the honey-house. Imagine doing this 100 times. The work is at least 20x that of moving a full super, and the aggravation to man and insect is 100x times. Fine in theory, but get real folks-- thats not honey production, that is insect and human torture.
Use all Mediums. Then when it is time to harvest just take the frames with honey and move the frames with brood down.
Limit the queen with a queen excluder. Returning bees will use the top entrance and go straight to the honey stores. Just my unproven idea, I'm thinking hard about top entrances.
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I have one colony in a 2-deep hive, and the bees almost ignore the 'normal' entry at the bottom. Most of the traffic goes in and out through a ventilation hole on the super. I can't find a reason. There's no obstruction. The bottom box is pretty full. I've swapped some frames, top to bottom deep, to see if that made a difference. It didn't. I'm puzzled.
Whatever makes them happy, I suppose. But when we have a strong flow there's going to be a huge traffic jam at that little hole, if I can't convince them to use the front door.
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Limit the queen with a queen excluder. Returning bees will use the top entrance and go straight to the honey stores. Just my unproven idea, I'm thinking hard about top entrances.
The problem with that is then the Drones can't get out. I don't use excluders, I like allowing the queen to go where she will. Except when I have some particular reason for confining her to some area.
I hear what you are saying JWChesnut . I have not had any problems with it. But then I am a small hobbyist. Not sure how I would handle it if I was going big. Maybe Michael Bush might have some ideas, since I believe he is a proponent of top entrances.
Alfred
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The problem with that is then the Drones can't get out. I don't use excluders, I like allowing the queen to go where she will. Except when I have some particular reason for confining her to some area.
Alfred
That's what I mean "unproven idea". Thanks for the check. :-D Looks like I gotta come up with another idea.
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I switched over this spring from a solid bottom board to a screened bottom board. It took some time for me to do that and by the time I got the screened bottom board leveled and the bottom box on, there was a bunch of bees flying around. I didn't get stung, and I don't switch bottom boards often, but it was a little unnerving to me. I recall someone likening inspecting with a top entrance with a cyclone of bees around you. Could those with top entrances describe how inspections are compared to a bottom entrance? Are the bees any more likely to be angry towards you or is it just a mental thing you have to get used to?
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>The other night I was reading Seeley's Honeybee Democracy, and after much study he came to the conclusion that bees prefer a top entrance out in the wild. Also, Gallop in the ABJ way back in 1867 ( www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm) ) concluded also that top entrances have better outcomes in the wild. Is that not the case?
There are a variety of opinions on the subject. In my opinion that is the case. Top entrances have better outcomes.
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Bees evolved in heavily insulated trees and have behaviuor to seek out bottom entrances if they can get them
The other night I was reading Seeley's Honeybee Democracy, and after much study he came to the conclusion that bees prefer a top entrance out in the wild. Also, Gallop in the ABJ way back in 1867 ( www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm) ) concluded also that top entrances have better outcomes in the wild. Is that not the case?
I'm just starting my second year as a beek, and am considering converting over to a top entrance based on these observations, and comments in this forum (of course).
page 56 honeybee democracy the table 4th row shows a Preference " Bottom>top of cavity"
where did you read the contrary?