Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: snmyork on June 17, 2011, 10:49:31 pm
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Trying to go as chemical free as possible on this, I really do not want to use checkmite or apistan but... My biggest hive has varroa. I am unsure the count but as I went into the hive on Tuesday I notice some bees with deformed wings. I checked closer due to most of the time it being caused by varroa. So I checked and saw several mites on bees. So since I was leaving for vacation the next day I did a powdered sugar shake. Since I am up at the in-laws I had access to tools that I do not have at home and made some nucs as I wanted to have them on hand anyway. So reading a lot on control, but will be able to read more when I am back home. What would be the best way to treat for them without using chemicals such as checkmite?
1. Split the hive
2. Powder sugar in about 10 days after split
3. Move to foundationless frames (which I have already been using some)
What about the one split with the queen how will it affect her hive with not really breaking the brood cycle? Will this get them out of the hive completely?
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Trying to go as chemical free as possible on this, I really do not want to use checkmite or apistan but... My biggest hive has varroa.
Your other Hive/hives have Varroa also !
1. Split the hive
Just spliting the mites !
2. Powder sugar in about 10 days after split
Powder the split and the hive when you do it, and every week for awhile, so they claim.
3. Move to foundationless frames (which I have already been using some)
What would that do to get rid of mites ?
What about the one split with the queen how will it affect her hive with not really breaking the brood cycle? Will this get them out of the hive completely?
If you can get them out completely, with any of the above practices, get a patten on it, you'll get rich !!
Bee-Bop
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>Will this get them out of the hive completely?
Nothing will ever get the Varroa mites out of the hive completely. That way lies madness.
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Your 3 points does not help anything with varroa.
Sugar dusting is ineffective.
Chemicals? what folks know about chemicals?
A while ago the gang recommended thymol as all disease preventive cure. Then against varroa it is chemical.
Make a false swam. Move the original hive 3 metres. Let the bees fly in empty hive and put the queen there. Fter 3 days all old bees are there and there is no capped brood where mites may hidden.
Then you may handle the hive with oxalic acid trickling or sprayig the frames on boath sides with 3% oxalic acid. This is the best stuff. If you get a gasifying apparatus it is good too.
Then let the brood part emerge and handle the bees with same system when they are all hached. Then join the hive parts.
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Try Sucrocide. We have a commercial organic beekeeper in our club and he states that this is the best ever. He ditched all the harsh chemicals 10 years ago and his hives are stronger and healthier now. I'm still new and have not seen them in my installed packages yet. It will happen, its just a question of time. Here is the product info from Dadants website. Can't post a link yet, because I'm new.
M00139PT Sucrocide pint
At last! A safe product for the beekeeper and the honey bees. SUCROCOIDE is non-toxic to the beekeeper and your bees. It kills varroa mites on the bees but doesn\'t harm the bees. Sucrocide is concentrated and needs to be mixed with water. You can use a garden-type sprayer or backpack sprayer to apply to the bees. There are two methods to apply Sucrocide. Number 1 Remove frames with bees adhering and spray both sides using a broad fine mist setting. Number 2 Spray the top of the frames to wet the bees using a Spray Boom (M00139SB). Bees must be completely wetted to ite. Sucrocide must come in contact with the mites to . Apply at first siting of varroa mites. Repeat applications at intervals of 7 to 10 days, up to three times per infestation, in order to kill varroa mites emerging from brood cells. One pint treats approximately 29 2-story hives for three applications. Active ingredient - Sucrose Octanoate Esters (40%) Ship Weight 3lbs.
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I just checked Dadant's website and
Available only to the following states: California, Georgia, Hawaii, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio and Washington.
Not available in Florida.
Larry
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Nor in Oregon
Bee-Bop
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Everyone wants to be chemical-free, but sometimes we just cannot be that way. The first thing you want to do is get them under control. I once heard that when you start seeing mites on bees you are in serious trouble, because they tend to stay hidden until the run out of room or there is a lot of them. I would guess that the exception to this would be during splits and brood cycle breaks. Try the Mite-Away Quick Strips. Those are the newest thing on the market and will not disrupt your honey flow! They are suppose to kill mites inside the wax cells as well. Once you get them under control, you can do occasional sugar shakes to keep them that way!
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Varroa-Dustructor/productinfo/599/ (http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Varroa-Dustructor/productinfo/599/) I use this for powdered sugar treatments.
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/MiteAway-Quick-Strip/productinfo/194/ (http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/MiteAway-Quick-Strip/productinfo/194/)
Also, here is a good video to watch pertaining to Varroa. I learned a lot by watching this. It is a little long though.
Honey Bee Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF__ezaP3-0#)
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As I looked at all the posts on this subject the last couple of days, I saw another topic where that video was mentioned. Watched it and that will make you more frighten for your hives. Finski mentioned that the three things I mentioned did not work, why were they mentioned multiple times to help lower the mite count. The only problem with the sucrocide is that I am in SC. This is the first I have had this pest. I have shb and wax moth and have been able to keep them at bay even though the shb did get one hive. I do want to do what is best for the bees and I do not want to put a lot of chemicals on the bees. I did like the sucrocide. Thanks for the help.
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I finally finished watching the video. Thanks Joebrown for posting it.
I found it very interesting and learned about mites.
Larry
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In Europe oxalic acid is noticed to be best stuff against varroa. It has been reseached thorougly and no to bees or to honey consumers has bee found if you measure the amount correctly.
You may think what ever about "chemicals" but I know that you have not made any reseach about issue. It is based just on belief...
Look at you wife's chemical store in bathroom and you lick her like a mad. - such is life!
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Practice and perfect the art of KYBO (Keeping Your Broodnests Open).
thomas
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Trying to go as chemical free as possible on this, I really do not want to use checkmite or apistan but... My biggest hive has varroa. I am unsure the count but as I went into the hive on Tuesday I notice some bees with deformed wings. I checked closer due to most of the time it being caused by varroa. So I checked and saw several mites on bees. So since I was leaving for vacation the next day I did a powdered sugar shake. Since I am up at the in-laws I had access to tools that I do not have at home and made some nucs as I wanted to have them on hand anyway. So reading a lot on control, but will be able to read more when I am back home. What would be the best way to treat for them without using chemicals such as checkmite?
1. Split the hive
2. Powder sugar in about 10 days after split
3. Move to foundationless frames (which I have already been using some)
What about the one split with the queen how will it affect her hive with not really breaking the brood cycle? Will this get them out of the hive completely?
As has been pointed out already, all of your hives have varroa. Like all bee pests and diseases, varroa is not something that moves into the otherwise pristine and sterile hive. The critical thing to understand, if you want to use chemicals as little as possible, is that the pests and diseases are ALWAYS present in every hive. But in a healthy hive, other bugs and microbes, as well as the bees' hygienic behavior, limits the reproduction of the pests and their impact on your colonies.
The only ways to treat without chemicals are mechanical methods (drone trapping, sugar dusting, screened bottom boards) and genetic methods (breeding for hygienic behavior, breeding from untreated survivors).
You've got some helpful strategies listed in your post, but you missed the most important tool: do a mite drop when you get back to check what the actual level of mites is, rather than worrying because you spotted a few of mites on bees. If your drop suggests you're over the treatment threshold, then proceed with mechanical methods.
Splitting the hive doesn't do anything by itself, but the half without a queen undergoes a brood break which leaves the mites fewer places to hide. During this time you can use sugar dusting to induce the bees to groom, knocking some of the mites out of the hive. This only works if you have screened bottom boards, and in my opinion only works really well if you also have either a long fall to the ground or a sticky trap under the screen (mites can crawl). You can do sugar dusting any time, but it's most effective when there is no brood because the mites are out in the open and because there are fewer larvae killed by the desiccating action of the powder.
The half with the queen does not get the benefit of a brood break, but you can do repeated sugar dusting (once a week for three weeks) to get some of that effect. For both halves, go ahead and dust the first time right when you do the split.
While you're on foundation, you can also use a plastic drone trapping frame. Insert one of these into a foundation-only hive in the summer and the bees will go nuts filling it with drone brood. As soon as the majority of cells are capped (and well before any of them emerge), remove the frame and freeze, then either scrape or return to the hive for cleaning. Varroa love drone brood, and in a foundation-only hive you can lure a substantial fraction of the reproducing mites into drone cells and take them out of the hive that way.
Foundationless keeping sortof helps.... Some people believe that bees reared in smaller-celled comb are better able to groom themselves, or that there is a slight shortening of the maturation time of pupae which helps bend the mite growth curve. Neither of these ideas have been proven, and it takes either several generations of frame replacement or shaking out onto small-cell foundation to regress bees to the point where they draw substantially smaller comb. Some people keep chemical free bees in all foundationless successfully...some people keep chemical free bees on all standard foundation successfully.
The key to having your hives thrive alongside varroa in the long term is genetics. You need to either buy or breed bees which do not dwindle and die when exposed to varroa and the diseases they vector. Isle of Wight disease, caused by tracheal mites, nearly wiped out all of the bees in England in the first decade of the 20th century. Modern bees are largely resistant to tracheal mites, which are omnipresent in hives but typically don't kill strong, healthy hives. The same thing can be done with varroa. If you don't want to use chemicals, then don't. Some of your hives will develop crushing mite loads and die out. Some will survive. Breed from the survivors.
This is tough on a keeper with few hives, because each loss hurts. There's nothing wrong with using some chemicals, whether pesticides or essential oils, if you feel you must - though using them will not rid the hive of mites and you will be facing exactly the same problem each year. The one thing that doesn't work is leaving hives untreated, and then jumping in with pesticides to "save" an overwhelmed colony. Not only will you have to make that choice again and again for a colony which cannot tolerate varroa, but you will also be selecting very efficiently for pesticide-resistant mites.
If you don't want to put the work and money into breeding your own survivors, there are more apiaries out there now selling packages and queens from untreated stock. It might be worth the initial investment to get some bees that have already demonstrated their ability to flourish in spite of varroa. But ask pointed questions about what they consider "treatment free" and how long they have survived without treatment. It should be a bare minimum of three or four years, and FGMO, thymol, formic acid etc all count as chemical treatments in my book.
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Watched it and that will make you more frighten for your hives.
Very true, but there is no need in sugar coating the facts. It is a serious issue. Personally I would rather know the facts than not know anything at all. The main reason I posted the video was because I learned so much. If another person learns anything from the video then it is worth posting in my opinion (and I see some others did). It also gives us a heads up to some new potential problems. Since the video, Australian bees have been ban from USA importation. Apis Cerana being the reason. How long before Apis Cerana finds its way to the USA?
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I just checked Dadant's website and
Available only to the following states: California, Georgia, Hawaii, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio and Washington.
Not available in Florida.
Larry
Brushy Mountain does not have that restriction. I'm not even sure why Dadant has it, because it is approved by the USDA. Another brand name is SucraShield by Natural Forces LLC. Can't post a URL yet. try www dot naturalforcesllc dot com
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How many of you actually use treatments for varroa? What is the process that you use?
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I usually use powdered sugar treatments in the Fall. I bought some of the MAQS, but I don't know if I want to use them or not! I really have them as a just in case measure.
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Every one should know that powered sugar is not effective against varroa.
attention against chemicals means lack of knowledge.
As I may read here many use vain chemials in beekeeping. These cure imagination and nothing more. Weak and uneffective chemicals are used too as speciality.
Somehow usefull chemicals are banned even if they are researched carefully during last 10 years.
I have teached here varroa control with oxalic acid many, many years. It seems that without "learning curve".
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Every one should know that powered sugar is not effective against varroa.
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Knowing that most varroa stay hidden in cells, I can see how your point makes perfect sense, because the powdered sugar coats the bees and varroa are removed during cleaning. If this is the case, then why are so many beekeepers using this method?
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Every one should know that powered sugar is not effective against varroa.
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Knowing that most varroa stay hidden in cells, I can see how your point makes perfect sense, because the powdered sugar coats the bees and varroa are removed during cleaning. If this is the case, then why are so many beekeepers using this method?
beekeepers use what ever they are told.
10 years ago one guy made doctor researches in Helsinky University.
No one use it here. No officials remommend it.
Many researches show that it is not effective. You may read it from google.
80% of mites are in summer under cappings and no stuff kill them there.
I have had mites 30 years. I take them seriously. i killed my first hive for varroa 1982.
It came over Russian border 35 years ago and here it is 50 km to the border.
Of course you may use it but there are 20 practically working methods too.
European Union varroa group made 10 years intensive researches and selected the best methods to be recommended. Results are publishes in English in inteenet. Few bother to read them but more love to read all kind of humbug.
If you really want to accustome to latest information in varroa, put into google "nanetti varroa control". Nanetti is an Italian beekeeping professor and leading expert in varroa research.
90% of varroa control advices is humbug on beekeeping forums. Chemical fear is one which make folks loose their mind. Then they are ready to use even poisonous stuffs than use recommend harmless chemicals.
If you look, carrot has more oxalic acid than dose against varroa.
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Dumping powdered sugar on our bees was just the latest method being touted as the varroa cure-all. Human Desperation/intervention causes great harm in most cases. Most research shows that dumping sugar on top of your bees does little to control mites and may cause bees lots of grief instead, just what they need, heh?
thomas
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Dumping powdered sugar on our bees was just the latest method being touted as the varroa cure-all.
Never thought of it as a "cure-all", just as one part of an overall IPM strategy. And, I agree, just going out and dumping some powdered sugar in a hive isn't an effective treatment - it has to be done regularly, over several weeks, to have any effect.
I also believe it's important to remember that treatment doesn't have to be an "either/or" proposition, but rather it's about making choices along a scale of options, with "doing nothing" at one end, and serious chemicals such as fluvalvinate and cuomophos (Apistan/Checkmite) at the other. In between there are options such as oxalic acid, thymol (Apiguard), MAQS, Hopguard, sucrocide, etc.
Look at you wife's chemical store in bathroom and you lick her like a mad. - such is life!
:-D
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QUOTE; "There are a few rules of thumb that are useful guides. One is that when you are confronted with some problem in the apiary and you do not know what to do, then do nothing. Matters are seldom made worse by doing nothing and are often made worse by inept intervention." Richard Taylor
(Got that hanging in plain site so I can see it every day)
thomas
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Since we do not know the full reasons for ccd and many have said that chemicals in the hive is a reason. I wanted to know my best options and how to treat for them. Also I do not have the biggest budget for the bees (like none). Over the past four years I have lost 5 hives due to many reasons and I do not want to loose these.
Thanks for help.
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As has been said by many in many different ways, the best method to control mites is to "keep your broodnests open" (KYBO). Study it, practice it, perfect it (if perfecting is even possible). It helps interupt the mite/bee cycle, minimizes swarming and gives the bees something else to do, for you :) making more bees.
thomas
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Knowing that most varroa stay hidden in cells, I can see how your point makes perfect sense, because the powdered sugar coats the bees and varroa are removed during cleaning. If this is the case, then why are so many beekeepers using this method?
Because one does not use powdered sugar at just any time, but instead when the hive is brood-less. Either taking advantage of queens which pause laying during a dearth, or doing a small split out with the queen so most of the hive is queenless. When there are no larvae and no capped cells, female mites must have something to feed on, so they are forced onto the adult bees. Then powdered sugar dusting is used to induce grooming, knocking a much larger percentage of mites out of the hive.
Although a couple of studies have "shown" powdered sugar ineffective, they have not been done properly. Of course dusting a queenright colony full of capped brood is not effective! Most of the mites are hiding away where nothing, not even oxalic acid, can touch them. Of course dusting on a solid bottom board is not effective! Mites fall to the bottom, then climb back on to the next bee that passes.
Powdered sugar does not kill mites, and it is not a long term solution to varroa any more than organic acid or organophosphates. In the long run the only useful method of control is to select for bees that can resist and survive mites and the diseases they vector.
But for a hobbyist without the resources to take the crushing losses that follow when treatment stops, sugar dusting is a cheap, low-tech method of varroa control that can help hives survive. For what it's worth, sugar dusting has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies not to harm the bees and not to induce resistance (since it's mechanical and not chemical in it's mode of action). Whereas oxalic acid weakens colonies somewhat and treated colonies have the same winter failure rate as control colonies (from Nanetti 2003).
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting)—sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-3/
Here's part 3 of a research review of sugar dusting. Not well organized, but about 2/3 of the way down there is an interesting note that one of the authors in the FL study which "debunked" sugar dusting responded to a letter by saying that while sugar dusting was ineffective "within the parameters of the study" (which dusted queenright colonies with capped brood), that she has seen it work in the real world and would recommend continuing to use it as part of IPM methods until "the science catches up".
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the best method to control mites is to "keep your broodnests open" (KYBO). Study it, practice it, perfect it (if perfecting is even possible). It helps interupt the mite/bee cycle, minimizes swarming and gives the bees something else to do, for you :) making more bees.
thomas
What evidence is there that KYBO has an effect on mites? It certainly does help suppress swarming and yes, it helps make more bees. But making more bees also makes more mites, since they need open brood for their own reproductive cycle. I don't remember ever reading anything about opening of the brood nest in regard to mite control and I can't see what the possible mechanism would be.
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I just checked Dadant's website and
Available only to the following states: California, Georgia, Hawaii, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio and Washington.
Not available in Florida.
Larry
Brushy Mountain does not have that restriction. I'm not even sure why Dadant has it, because it is approved by the USDA. Another brand name is SucraShield by Natural Forces LLC. Can't post a URL yet. try www dot naturalforcesllc dot com
all pesticides have to be registered by the dept of Ag first. They then need state registration before they can be sold in that state. Brushy mountain cannot ship to states that haven't approved it. Maine and New Mexico are still in the state registration period for quick strips all other 48 have approved them
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My understanding and what seems to keep mites at bay for me (I've NEVER had an issue w/ varroa) is the interuption of the cycle through persistent opening of broodnest. (or perhaps its all the Hops we grow :-\).
thomas
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If you have not varroa problems, it means not that others have either.
Only sick needs healing said Jesus.
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Only sick needs healing said Jesus.
So Finski, you talk to Jesus AND the bees? :-D
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This recipe from a woman in our bee club that uses EO's and sugar dusting on her bees, bees are healthy and overwinter well. She is well respected by members of our bee club.
1. GARLIC/POWDERED SUGAR for VARRO MITES(use only if count is over 60/day)
Put ½ lb(2 CUPS) sugar in blender. Grind until fine. DO NOT use powdered sugar with additives. Add 1oz granulated garlic powder to sugar in blender and grind again. DO NOT use garlic salt. I use a small hand sifter to dust each side of the frames.
NOTE: Use only when warranted by mite count greater than (60/day) as this can kill some larvae. Best time is when brood rearing has shut down.
My .02 cents as well.
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Yes, old Transylvanic method against blood suckers.
A Finish recipe is:
one bottle vodga
20 crushed carlic or was it claws?
Let it stay 9 months
when you go to nurse bees, take a god boost from it.
When you respire a while into the hive, all mites, under cappings incluced,
will be dead. Sometimes bees abscond too but they will come back.
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Dave Miksa also recommended this for mites. His formula was similar but he recommended that this formula be stirred with a mixer for about 30 minutes for it to be effective. Haven't tried it so can't recommend.
This recipe from a woman in our bee club that uses EO's and sugar dusting on her bees, bees are healthy and overwinter well. She is well respected by members of our bee club.
1. GARLIC/POWDERED SUGAR for VARRO MITES(use only if count is over 60/day)
Put ½ lb(2 CUPS) sugar in blender. Grind until fine. DO NOT use powdered sugar with additives. Add 1oz granulated garlic powder to sugar in blender and grind again. DO NOT use garlic salt. I use a small hand sifter to dust each side of the frames.
NOTE: Use only when warranted by mite count greater than (60/day) as this can kill some larvae. Best time is when brood rearing has shut down.
My .02 cents as well.
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Jtow writes that use if mite count is 60 drops per 24 hours. Varroa calulator tells that then the hive has 2400 mites.
1000 mites is critical number according specialists.
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Dave Miksa also recommended this for mites. His formula was similar but he recommended that this formula be stirred with a mixer for about 30 minutes for it to be effective. Haven't tried it so can't recommend.
This recipe from a woman in our bee club that uses EO's and sugar dusting on her bees, bees are healthy and overwinter well. She is well respected by members of our bee club.
1. GARLIC/POWDERED SUGAR for VARRO MITES(use only if count is over 60/day)
Put ½ lb(2 CUPS) sugar in blender. Grind until fine. DO NOT use powdered sugar with additives. Add 1oz granulated garlic powder to sugar in blender and grind again. DO NOT use garlic salt. I use a small hand sifter to dust each side of the frames.
NOTE: Use only when warranted by mite count greater than (60/day) as this can kill some larvae. Best time is when brood rearing has shut down.
My .02 cents as well.
What on earth is the garlic supposed to do? I could see, maybe, it being an anti-microbial, but I don't think I buy it as a miticide.
Unless the mites are related to a different species of blood-sucker! :shock:
It'll probably work due to the powdered sugar being used during broodless periods, but I'm not sure the garlic adds anything.
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I have heard about the garlic trick as well, but no one has ever told me why they use it.
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In response to garlic, the use of it is pretty much the same as for using sugar shakes. For mite control the treatment I've found is no treatment, let the bees firgure it out. It takes about 6-8 years to get your bees to the point that they can survive even with a moderate mite load, and learn how to control the mite load so it never gets larger than moderate.
But if you like treatments garlic is as good as powdered sugar, flour, cornstarch, and other finely ground powders.
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I wonder what a beginner gets from this kind of discussion.
Jerk or not, but do you know better advices to kill beginners' hives ?
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Yet again, Brian D Bray makes the most sense without condeming others attempts and efforts.
(Intelligent/meaningful) Discussion is how some folks learn Finski, hopefully you'll one day realize that it works even better than slamming or calling others stupid.
thomas
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OK guys, I am still wanting to know what methods you use to control mites. I still am finding from even local beeks to use sugar shaking, and splitting the hive. The use of small cell or natural comb also is a help. I do a lot of research before I do anything and if you know a better way than please fill free to tell me. The reason for my first post on going as chemical free as possible is to keep the chemicals inside the hive at a small amount. As a society we think that when a problem arises to put chemical or use chemicals to make it better. I do not want that for my bees. If I need to use mite-away that is fine. I just want the best option for me.
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Dear sir. Use your own brains.
There are at least 20 recommended effective method to treat varroa, but you as a new beekeeper put so idealistic borders to the theatment, that probably this generation cannot help you.
"to rear varroa tolerant bee stock". Yes, splended. I t has been done 30 years in many countries. Numerous break outs have been done but the final goal waits..
No one want to think that varroa too develope its existence.
I use European Union Varroa Groups recommendations. I HAVE NOTHING MY OWN TRICKS. I am not even going to waste my only life for varroa. In British forum some said that using hose recommendations is against law. Yes, it is nice to see some beekeepers sit in prison after killing 25 000 mites with wrong method.
You may kill mites but only with aproved method.......
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As Finski said, there are lots of methods. Finski's getting pretty feisty again, though.... :-D Feisty Finski!
No method is the silver bullet. Most work a little bit, none work all the way. Many have been tried, touted, but have fallen out of favor. Mineral oil fog coming to mind, as well as vinegar fog.
Brood break
Out breeding the mites, keeping young queens - search for Mel Disselkoen, he has interesting methods
Faithfully powdering with sugar can help a bit.
Screened bottom boards
Freezing frames of capped drone brood
essential oils
equipping the nurse bees with tiny pry bars
I use apiguard, although will forgo that this year for some nosema meds.
Garlic works somewhat against the blood-suckers, but I feel it works best if I keep a bucket of holy water around for the bees to take in. Boy...and the sparks and smoke when I open that top cover!!
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Let the flaming begin, but I couldn't resist after hearing this same discussion for years now with no real "solution." :? Here are the conclusions I have reached:
Find magic "feral bees" (mostly just escapees from someone else's packages), buy magic bees from someone who doesn't treat (you don't even need the bees, just the queen, because she is the only one reproducing bees), don't do anyting and your bees will "evolve" (if they don't die first, else try again...you will probably not live long enough to see any change, but the package sellers will get rich and you may get lucky...), sugar dust, sugar and garlic, small cell, frames of drone comb, use MDA splitter method, put them in a top bar hive, atguard, thymol, oxylic vapor, oxylic drip, mineral oil vapor, place rotting banana on inner cover, and use a screened bottom board. One of those things, or some combination of them, should work.... :shock:
...and bee sure to feed Honey-B-Heathy and enzymes in your sugar syrup to build resistance...
:-D
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Yes, that hokkus pokkus list. We keep bees and feed mites with bees. That must be basic idea.
Do you know that Devil does not live in the Hell any more.
Yes, when Stalin came to Hell, Devil moved to Heaven.
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Just say 'no' to treatments. Sure, bees will die, likely by the trillions, but we must let weak bees die so they can defend this scurge 'themselves'. The survivors will rule and if they could they would thank us. I often feel that the best thing we homo-sapians could do to help out honeybees would be to stop keeping honeybees for awhile, likely a LONG while to have any real effect.......
But first we must overcome 'human' arrogance (yeah, that's gonna happen) over other living creatures.
thomas
" people go to Heaven for the weather, people go to Hell for the company. Why is Hell so crowded???????
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Why do that?...you would probably have a better chance spending your annual bee package money on Lotto tickets. Rather than random chance selection, why not be scientific and get queens from the guys who already have the survivors that do this? Very quickly, all of our hives would be populated with "treatment free" offspring and we wouldn't have to treat either. If we all did this, instead of continuing to buy all those other inferior queens that come with the packages, theoretically we should be able to beat Varaoa in a few years and end this discussion.
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Here we are. Best cure is survivors. It means nothing can be done. Just wonder.
We have saying from II WOLRD WAR: A Finnish soldier is equal 10 Russian soldier but then came the eleventh ....
Varroa douple itself in month .......100....200....400....800.....1600....3500....7000....14 000..25 000
in 9 months 250 fold....
....
Hurray! Survivors are coming!
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Why do that?...you would probably have a better chance spending your annual bee package money on Lotto tickets. Rather than random chance selection, why not be scientific and get queens from the guys who already have the survivors that do this? Very quickly, all of our hives would be populated with "treatment free" offspring and we wouldn't have to treat either. If we all did this, instead of continuing to buy all those other inferior queens that come with the packages, theoretically we should be able to beat Varaoa in a few years and end this discussion.
yes, why?
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"A Finnish soldier is equal 10 Russian soldier but then came the eleventh ...."
Finski
Hope you dont mind a american born Norwegen on you side. By now you should be getting the idea that this is a battle that cant be won here.
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What battle, where?
Half of Norwegian hives have not varroa.
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What battle, where?
Half of Norwegian hives have not varroa.
if you haven't noticed this site has a huge following of powder sugar shaking members. Oxalic is also illegal here so on top of so many site members that dont want to put anything in there hives, you have the "thats not legal crowd" What I was trying to say to you is I have personal experience with oxalic. Most here dont and never will. this is the battle I am talking about.
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In many countrie it is said that oxalic acid is illegal= not accepted.
However beekeepers have used 10 years oa. First gasifying, then sprayding and then tricking. No oe knows when you use oa.
Sugar dusting is waste on time. It is one hive owners fun club job. Nothing serious.
Oxalic acid is practically free = a bad business.
In England many said that oxalic acid is illegal. However Defra had recommend its use 5 years. That is time when varroa group find the results.
I have teached to many forums how to use oxalic acid. Folks are not able to read with english language from google researches. However they want to use 15 years old tricks.
I have studied biology in University and issues are not odd to me.
That I do not understand that so many want to find his "own receipt" to do that and that. Idiots they are.
Michael Bush is a big guru on forums, but when you look, his systems or varroa tolerant bees are not mentioned in single university research. Michael uses oa-gasifying and does not understand trickling.
This has been same BS seven years. It is going worse when those "stupid and busy" guys write their advices.
I have met so much losses for varroa that I do not want play "me inventor" -game.
I am a little bit angry about the issue. So much vain writing years and years.
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Finski angry? I couldn't tell :-D
thomas
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But if sugar shaking is second best, shake it.
If waiting a miracle is the best, you wait it.
Mean while I kill mites with chemicals.
I have studied chemistry and genetics in university. I have played with vrroa 30 years. Funny thing but I can handle this case.
You have problems, not me.
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Finski, you are wise. I listen to you. However mites are worth money here in the USA, maybe we don’t want them dead? The researchers at Michigan State University are willing to pay a premium for hives WITH LOTS OF MITES. The more mites the better!
http://www.michiganbees.org/2011/06/yes-your-mites-are-worth-some-money/ (http://www.michiganbees.org/2011/06/yes-your-mites-are-worth-some-money/)
It might be bad for businesses if we killed off all the mites with Oxalic acid.
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Jeeee. Eiffel tower of Paris has been sold 3 times to US BUSINESSMAN.
I have read that you are diamond hard sellers but I think that you are hard byers too.
To pick mites from bees you need sheap labour force. That is a stif point.
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Finski,
It is my belief it's happening again. A few years ago you dragged your superiority of knowledge in the face of everyone on this forum. Eventually you and I had some harsh words over that and you left the forum for a while because of the amount of animosity that developed from your braggadocio. Now your abrasiveness so coming to the fore again and I see history repeating itself.
Finski, I would put my knowledge of beekeeping up against yours any day of the week. I admit you have one area of strength in the art of beekeeping I lack, keeping bees in very cold conditions. But just because you are successful as a cold weather beekeeper, and have a college education, doesn't mean you have a right to be so in your face with what knowledge you dispense. There are a lot of college educated beekeepers on this forum who choose not to make a big deal over it.
I believe it is the intent of this forum to share the collected knowledge of every member, regardless of their degree of experience, to the betterment of all. My grandfather, who was a minister, used to say, "The arrogant man reaps contempt as his primary crop." Please ratchet back on the arrogance and impart your wisdom with patience and compassion, it will be much better received.
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X:X X:X Thanks Brian, tried to relay that sentiment earlier in this post but was ignored.
thomas
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In response to garlic, the use of it is pretty much the same as for using sugar shakes. For mite control the treatment I've found is no treatment, let the bees figure it out. It takes about 6-8 years to get your bees to the point that they can survive even with a moderate mite load, and learn how to control the mite load so it never gets larger than moderate.
But if you like treatments garlic is as good as powdered sugar, flour, cornstarch, and other finely ground powders.
gota be careful when you chose to dust your bees for mite protection-powdered sugar will not dry out and kill young and developing LARVE -theres more to it than just finely ground powders when it comes to larvae well being-something to think about--RDY-B
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I've been quiet on this subject as I seem to just make Finski angry. Hmmm. Sugar dusting for Varroa was developed by Dr. Kamran Fakhimzadeh, University of Helsinki, FINLAND. It's a double standard to lay all the foolishness on "stupid merri-cans."
http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Powdered_sugar_dusting_in_bee_colonies_as_varroa_control_updated_9_09_09l.pdf (http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Powdered_sugar_dusting_in_bee_colonies_as_varroa_control_updated_9_09_09l.pdf)
Introduction
The powdered sugar dusting is a non-chemical approach to the control of varroa
mite in the honeybee. The technique was developed by Dr. Kamran
Fakhimzadeh, University of Helsinki, Finland in 2000. The method has proved to
be an effective means of reducing varroa mites in honeybee colonies and exerts a
significant impact on mite reproduction.
Even more foolish to lay foolishness on a PhD working at a major University. The guy's name is all over the web.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting%E2%80%94sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting%E2%80%94sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/)
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=153532 (http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=153532)
http://www.apitherapy.com/index.php/esl/Paises-api/Europe/Finland (http://www.apitherapy.com/index.php/esl/Paises-api/Europe/Finland)
Theory is the particle size causes the mites to lose grip. I suppose you could do it with Talcum powder or Flour if you didn't mind the taste.
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It takes about 6-8 years to get your bees to the point that they can survive even with a moderate mite load, and learn how to control the mite load
I'm a first year cat keeper so forget my ignorance. I would like to know how many years it takes for my cat to learn to control its flea load.
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I've been quiet on this subject as I seem to just make Finski angry. Hmmm. Sugar dusting for Varroa was developed by Dr. Kaman Fakhimzadeh, University of Helsinki, FINLAND. It's a double standard to lay all the foolishness on "stupid merri-cans."
http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Powdered_sugar_dusting_in_bee_colonies_as_varroa_control_updated_9_09_09l.pdf (http://www.countryrubes.com/images/Powdered_sugar_dusting_in_bee_colonies_as_varroa_control_updated_9_09_09l.pdf)
Introduction
The powdered sugar dusting is a non-chemical approach to the control of varroa
mite in the honeybee. The technique was developed by Dr. Kaman
Fakhimzadeh, University of Helsinki, Finland in 2000. The method has proved to
be an effective means of reducing varroa mites in honeybee colonies and exerts a
significant impact on mite reproduction.
Even more foolish to lay foolishness on a PhD working at a major University. The guy's name is all over the web.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting%E2%80%94sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/ (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting%E2%80%94sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/)
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=153532 (http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=153532)
http://www.apitherapy.com/index.php/esl/Paises-api/Europe/Finland (http://www.apitherapy.com/index.php/esl/Paises-api/Europe/Finland)
Theory is the particle size causes the mites to lose grip. I suppose you could do it with Talcum powder or Flour if you didn't mind the taste.
you have brought up a good point -most people dont understand how powdered sugar dusting really works-yes it is the suction cups on the mites feet that lose the ability to hold a grip when the bees are dusted--most people believe that it is attributed to grooming by the bees to remove the dust from there bodies-I will once again repeat my cation of using anything other than powdered sugar - such as flour or talc -these will only dry out the uncapped LARVE and cause harm to your bees -powdered sugar will not harm the uncapped larvae-- :lol: nice shooting with the fact about the guy that developed it being from FINLAND 8-)--RDY-B
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Interesting because I read here on this forum that powdered sugar dusting suffocates the larvae. I dusted my hives for 2 years with powdered sugar and it worked really well, but stopped doing it for several reasons, one was the thought that the larvae were in harms way.
What is the truth??
Thanks for sharing all the information
Annette
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the truth is that there is always a stress when you preform a manipulation to the bees
mite treatments are no different -interesting point about suffocating the larva-i do not know this to be
a problem-i do know sugar will dissolve into the bee milk (royal jelly) with out drying it out-and the nurse bees can
clean and ingest the residue from the sugar with no harm to ether-and i have never heard of damage to uncapped brood
(developing larvae)-as a side effect of the dusting-I suppose if you used enough sugar you could suffocate the whole hive
- 8-)- :) RDY-B
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Actually this is the first time I've heard of the larvae being harmed. I looked around and found this publication from the University of Nebraska. It states there's no harm to immature honeybees unless they're dusted with large amounts directly.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1184&context=entomologyfacpub (http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1184&context=entomologyfacpub)
Here's the original article by Dr. Kaman Fakhimzadeh describing his findings.
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2001/02/fakhim/fakhim.html (http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2001/02/fakhim/fakhim.html)
Direct link to the PDF
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2001/02/fakhim.pdf (http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2001/02/fakhim.pdf)
As a guess I could suppose the starch in commercial powdered sugar would cause problems. If you don't know how to make a powdered sugar without corn starch, here's a video. I found I just turn the blender to it's highest speed. It takes about a minute.
How To Make Powdered Sugar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAxeqNMqGCw#)
You may ask your self, how in the world can this guy read this stuff? Beer...
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Actually this is the first time I've heard of the larvae being harmed. I looked around and found this publication from the University of Nebraska. It states there's no harm to immature honeybees unless they're dusted with large amounts directly.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1184&context=entomologyfacpub (http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1184&context=entomologyfacpub)
Here's the original article by Dr. Kaman Fakhimzadeh describing his findings.
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2001/02/fakhim/fakhim.html (http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2001/02/fakhim/fakhim.html)
Direct link to the PDF
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2001/02/fakhim.pdf (http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2001/02/fakhim.pdf)
As a guess I could suppose the starch in commercial powdered sugar would cause problems. If you don't know how to make a powdered sugar without corn starch, here's a video. I found I just turn the blender to it's highest speed. It takes about a minute.
How To Make Powdered Sugar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAxeqNMqGCw#)
You may ask your self, how in the world can this guy read this stuff? Beer...
It could be the cornstarch, I don't really know. Thanks for the video on making powdered sugar.
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Interesting because I read here on this forum that powdered sugar dusting suffocates the larvae. I dusted my hives for 2 years with powdered sugar and it worked really well, but stopped doing it for several reasons, one was the thought that the larvae were in harms way.
What is the truth??
Thanks for sharing all the information
Annette
After a sugar dusting a hygenic pull of uncapped brood can be observed can be observed. So, yes, there is a small amount of brood loss as a direct result of a sugar shake. It can also be surmised that some of the pulled brood might have had mites taking up residence within there cell at the time the shake was preformed. Mites attempting to move off of dusted bees into open brood cells either fall to/through the bottom board, are caught by the bees and removed, or successfully make the transfer where a given percentage will be removed when the dusted brood is also removed.
The question that must be answered by the beekeeper, is the loss of some brood worth the offset in mite population.
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Thanks Brian for your insight.