Laying workers

[Stone]

Is there anything that would turn around a colony with laying workers - short of loosing all the nurse bees in the grass? This was the only solution I ever heard of.  Would a strong dose of queen pheromone like Bee Boost do anything?  Just curious.

[FRAMEshift]

No, Beeboost won't work.   It's open brood pheromone (not QMP) that has the largest effect on laying workers.   You can either add a frame of open brood (and repeat adding frames one at a time until it works) or you could do a combine with a queenright hive.  After the laying workers stop, you could then do a split including eggs.

[Stone]

Thanks for the suggestion! What has been your experience with each technique?  Which one would give me better chances: dumping the nurse bees and requeening, adding frames, or combining? Thanks.

[FRAMEshift]

I don't think shaking out the bees works very well, since the laying workers will generally find their way back to the hive too.  Doing a combine followed by a split is more of a production than dropping in a frame of eggs, but it it probably faster.  If you have lots of open brood available to donate, I'd try that.  If not, do the combine.  If you decide to add brood, make sure you don't move the queen from the donor hive by accident.

Putting a new queen into a laying worker hive is likely to result in the queen being killed since there is no open brood and the hive thinks they already have a queen.

[L Daxon]

Adding frames of eggs until the workers raise a new queen worked for me earlier this year.  And it is cheaper than buying a new queen, but it may take longer to get the hive queenright, depending on how long it takes you to get your hands on a new queen and/or how many weeks it takes the girls to start raising a new leader.  Of course you will need to have other hive(s) from which to steal the eggs or even better a capped queen cell.

[Michael Bush]

A frame of eggs every week for three weeks has worked very time for me.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

[Stone]

Michael,
Since you've had great success with what you describe, that would be the most logical route for me to go.

But I had an experiment in mind that I thought I'd try:
Introduce a tubule of Bee Boost. They certainly can't sting a tubule of Bee Boost to death.  I'm thinking that maybe this scent would replace that of the laying worker(s) and the hive would return to "normal" until my queen arrives. 

That's why I asked my original question. Since I'm only on my third year of beekeeping, I have absolutely NO idea if this is even a possibility - but I am very curious about the dynamics at play here - and if this has ever been tried.

I have the frames to add but as I see it, introducing a queen that could be accepted (IF she would be) would be a heck of a lot easier - and faster - than adding a frame every three weeks.  What do you think?

[FRAMEshift]

Michael,
Since you've had great success with what you describe, that would be the most logical route for me to go.

He just gave you his recommendation. 

But I had an experiment in mind that I thought I'd try:
Introduce a tubule of Bee Boost. They certainly can't sting a tubule of Bee Boost to death.  I'm thinking that maybe this scent would replace that of the laying worker(s) and the hive would return to "normal" until my queen arrives. 

The hive does not think it is queenless.  The laying workers developed their ovaries because there was no open brood pheromone.  Think of your tube of Bee Boost as just one more laying worker that does not lay.  It is giving off queen pheromone just like the other laying workers.  That does not fix the problem.

That's why I asked my original question. Since I'm only on my third year of beekeeping, I have absolutely NO idea if this is even a possibility - but I am very curious about the dynamics at play here - and if this has ever been tried.

If you want to try it, then try it.  Just don't expect anyone to tell you that you are right.   :-D

I have the frames to add but as I see it, introducing a queen that could be accepted (IF she would be) would be a heck of a lot easier - and faster - than adding a frame every three weeks.  What do you think?

Yes, introducing a queen would be faster.  And she would be killed because the hive already has a "queen" and they will kill an invader.  This is why a laying worker hive is so much trouble.

[Stone]

"The hive does not think it is queenless.  The laying workers developed their ovaries because there was no open brood pheromone.  Think of your tube of Bee Boost as just one more laying worker that does not lay.  It is giving off queen pheromone just like the other laying workers."

Frameshift,
Now I get it.  So much for my experiment.  :)  

If I do a combine, is there any special method other than the "newspaper"' combination method or precautions I should take?

[FRAMEshift]

If I do a combine, is there any special method other than the "newspaper"' combination method or precautions I should take?

We don't use newspaper unless we are combining two large hives (which we never do).  Instead, we spray the frames in both hives with vanilla extract (2 drops in a quart of water).   That seems to confuse the bees enough to prevent fighting. 

When you do a combine with a laying worker hive, think of it as adding a bunch of open brood frames to the laying worker hive at once.  Yes, you are also adding a queen (who will be protected by her own workers) but that is not what reverses the laying workers.

[Stone]

Vanilla extract. Hmm. I think I have some of that in the kitchen cabinet.

Where should I place the new combination that I make? At the location of the queenright colony?

Can you elaborate on your last statement?:

"Yes, you are also adding a queen (who will be protected by her own workers) but that is not what reverses the laying workers."

Thanks!

[Stone]

What about "Honey Bee Healthy" in sugar syrup? I always have some around for spraying packages and bees from cutouts.  Have you tried this?

[FRAMEshift]

Where should I place the new combination that I make? At the location of the queenright colony?

I would move the smaller hive to the position of the larger hive.  Then put a board leaning up over the entrance to make the foragers re-orient.

Can you elaborate on your last statement?:

"Yes, you are also adding a queen (who will be protected by her own workers) but that is not what reverses the laying workers."

I was just explaining a possible conflict in advice.  I had just told you not to add a queen because she would be killed.  Then I suggested that you could do a combine, which would mix the laying worker hive with a queen.  The difference is that the queen in a combine has her own workers to protect her.  And in either case, it is not the queen pheromone that reverses the laying workers.  It's the open brood pheromone.

This is one reason some people prefer to move a frame of brood instead of doing a combine.  They might be worried that their queen would be killed.

What about "Honey Bee Healthy" in sugar syrup? I always have some around for spraying packages and bees from cutouts.  Have you tried this?

I have not tried it.

[Michael Bush]

It's the pheromones from open brood that suppress the laying workers from developing, but some do anyway. It is NOT the queen pheromone as many of the older books suggest.

See page 11 of Wisdom of the hive:

    "the queen's pheromones are neither necessary nor sufficient for inhibiting worker's ovaries. Instead, they strongly inhibit the workers from rearing additional queens. It is now clear that the pheromones that provide the proximate stimulus for workers to refrain from laying eggs come mainly from the brood, not from the queen (reviewed in Seeling 1985; see also Willis, Winston, and Slessor 1990)."

Bee Boost will not resolve your problem.  It will only make it harder to get them to accept a queen.

[BeeMaster2]

I don't think shaking out the bees works very well, since the laying workers will generally find their way back to the hive too. Doing a combine followed by a split is more of a production than dropping in a frame of eggs, but it it probably faster.  If you have lots of open brood available to donate, I'd try that.  If not, do the combine.  If you decide to add brood, make sure you don't move the queen from the donor hive by accident.

Putting a new queen into a laying worker hive is likely to result in the queen being killed since there is no open brood and the hive thinks they already have a queen.

The trick to dumping the bees out is to do so 200 to 300 feet way from the hive and make sure that all bees are out of the hive, the reassemble it in it's original location. The idea is that the laying workers are to heavy to fly back to the hive and do not make it back.
I did it with my first hive and it worked. The new queen was not killed. This hive didn't make it because before the new queen's eggs hatched the hive beetles had taken over and destroyed. I did take the new queen back to my mentor after he gave me a new hive. The original hive he sold me in a nuc had a defective queen.
Jim

[CapnChkn]

I have the frames to add but as I see it, introducing a queen that could be accepted (IF she would be) would be a heck of a lot easier - and faster - than adding a frame every three weeks.  What do you think?

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but it's not adding a frame every three weeks, it's adding a frame of open brood once a week for 3 weeks.

[Stone]

Yep. Frame of brood.  Got that.  :)