Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: D Coates on May 13, 2010, 10:51:08 am
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I've had 5 calls on hives in structures this year. My close rate has been poor so far, with 3 that I didn't land and 2 are still possible, but I'm not counting on them.
I quote $50 an hour, including drive time for a trap-out or cut-out. Last year I charged $40 an hour but felt that I needed to raise my rates considering the amount of work. I do not offer cut-out repairs. I've got regular job that pays well, a wife and kids that are great but consume a lot of time, a bee vacuum, other equipment, and most importantly experience. The way I look at it, if I am trading my time for removing bees it should at least be worth while.
At $50 an hour should I expect to get little work? That's okay, but I'd like to understand what to expect.
Any input is welcome.
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At any price per hour, you are telling them, "I will charge whatever I decide while I am doing it".
I charge 300 for a standard cutout or trapout, with extras for extra services. Scaffolding, bucket truck, ETC. I quote the total price up front, so there are no surprises, but I do tell them of any possible finds when I am inside that may make the price go up.
They should not pay for your bungling, if you miss the queen and spend 3 hours looking for her after you have removed the comb.
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That's a great idea. I did have one guy ask for a flat fee. I told him that I couldn't do that because I don't really know what I'm going to find until I'm in there. Have you ever gotten burned with that rate? I normally tell potential customers a trap out or cut out usually runs between $300 and $400. If I go with a flat fee for a standard cut out or trap out, I'll make sure to let them know there are additional fees if the cut out isn't "standard".
I'm not looking to get rich but not making it worth my time isn't smart. If I want hive increases it's a whole lot easier chasing swarms, making splits and raising queens than doing a cut out. If I've got the time a cut out is quite enjoyable though.
Any other feedback is greatly appreciated
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I usually charge a flat fee, but I am normally too low. Once I am in there I start thinking, "Dang it! This job is a whole lot more complicated than I thought!" LOL
I usually try to do the repairs....depending on what they are. I waffle on my prices, because many times it is someone elderly, or down on their luck. My goal is, though, to be paid roughly $500/full service removal...minimum. Have not charged that much yet, but am getting to the point where that will be the minimum. Love doing it, but (like you) have many other irons in the fire. :-P
I still have a lot to learn, though.
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Joker, I would not do a 5 minute repair for a thousand dollars. If you do both, you will be doing it again free when a swarm moves in next year or the year after. If you don't, they will pay. You aren't responsible, he did the repair. He isn't responsible, he's not a beekeeper.
D. Coates, anyone in any business will get burned now and then. Just suck it in and go to the next job.
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D. Coates, anyone in any business will get burned now and then. Just suck it in and go to the next job.
Fully agreed, I'd prefer to be the windshield at least 85%, but I do understand that leaves me as the bug a minimum of 15% of the time. If $300 flat rate gets me to that balance I'm okay. As for repairs I won't touch them. My job is done when the bees are gone. I'll give them tips on how to avoid having bees move back in there but otherwise I walk away with the bees and the payment.
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I charge a Church 45 per hour+ milage and did the repair work after I removed. On one of the other boards it runs about 75 Per hour and in genrail $200. to start.
My-smokepole
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I don't charge anything to do a cut-out. I feel just getting the bees is find with me. I would rather do it for free then have the bees just be sprayed an killed. Yes after I get done I do have people pay me for a job well done. I don't do repairs that is up to the home owner. I did a cut=out in a church last year it took me just 2 hrs to do, Told them I didn't want anything for doing it a week later got a card with a 200.00 check for doing the job an big thank you for doing it. I do it this way because there some people that just can't pay alot of money to get the removed, An I get the enjoyment doing it. I have meet so many nice people this way. I also get to tach people about the bees as I do the joy, You would be surprise that the people that have not seen a cut-out. I had a 89 year old lady tell me that is the firswt time she has seen anything like that. Makes me feel good to do it the way I do it.
James
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I do cut outs for a minimum of $300 usually (however there has been a time or two that I reduced the price a bit...old ladies on ss etc) and they can often be a good bit more depending on complexity. I offer re-build as an after bid.
I just started 3 separate trap outs in the same condo complex (all bee trees) for $450. Since the biggest expense to me is the travel to cut outs and these are right next to each other, I figured on $300 for the first and $75 ea. for any additional.
Scott
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Pondman, I just went to look at a cut out yesterday. The property manager called me. The lady said her chef had seen them move in Monday. It was thought to be in the ceiling of the gym. "approx. 30 X 40" They left before I got there. I explained that they could have moved to another area of the property. She instructed the property manager to have the carpenter and gardener check all the buildings on the property.
This is a single family residence.
I fully understand your pity for the poor folks. I really feel bad for charging them..........
NOT
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Lol iddee! I got a call just a few minutes ago from a woman in Orlando (45 min drive). She's got bees in her wall. She hired a guy yesterday that came out and started shredding the siding...he couldn't find the colony so he dusted them with "some kind of powder" and then set off a bug bomb under the siding and left. I told her I didn't want anything to do with it, but if she got desperate it would cost her $1000 if I had to deal with the crap!
I really do feel sorry for her but ya get what ya pay for.
Scott
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100 an hour 3 hour minimum
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After ones does a few, they usually decide to charge. I try to be sympathetic as well but removing bees from structures on a continual basis is one heck of a way to get bees.
If you want to get bees without working your tail off, buy packages or get on a swarm list.
Nothing wrong with being nice and sympthetic to those who don't have the means, but you got to look out for numero uno as well.
I don't have a minimum fee but most average somewhere between $300-$500.
...JP
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I appreciate all the feedback. I'll start quoting a flat rate of $300 for a standard cut out, with more for anything that's not standard. Hopefully this will get me enough to keep it fun but not consume all the limited time "free time" I have.
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I usually charge a donation of 50.00 an hr with a 4 hr min. As the season progresses and I run low on equipment the price of a hive to put them in is tacked on. I search out and remove hives for free sometimes just to get the genetics. I don't do trap outs because the bees are valueless to me if I don't get the queen. I will catch a swarm locally, but I don't go more than a few miles for one. I don't charge to collect a swarms.
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Does no one have insurance to do this? What if you cut a wire, or damage something? It would be a real :'( to get sued. JP, I imagine you're insured, you do this professionally. I'm hesitant to charge because of the liability. I've yet to do a cut-out, but have one in waiting. I also don't want to charge because it is my first cut-out. I'd like to get a couple under my belt before I begin charging. But is it worth it if you're not already insured and bonded? JP, I'm curious to hear your thoughts...
Josh
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I've been in the pest control business for more than twenty years. Here in Louisiana one has to be licensed, bonded and insured to practice.
I don't know if my competitors carry insurance or not but IMO it makes a lot of sense to cover yourself if you make doing cut outs a habit.
Now I know quite a few people who do a fair share and aren't insured but they pick and choose the ones they do.
Surprisingly, it is very rare for a potential customer to even ask me if I am in fact insured.
If you want to do cut outs and are concerned about liability issues consult with an attorney. Perhaps y'all can draw up some type of release form. Look into ones that involve indemnification.
Have them sign the agreement. You keep a copy & they get one as well.
...JP
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I've been doing quite a few cut outs lately and, although I'm a licensed beekeeper in my county, I run the removal business under my State Building contractors license which carries $3,000,000 in General liability.
Scott
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My company hired a beek to remove bees from an abandoned building on their property and it was a flat rate of $300 with no repairs. I helped her but my time was free because 1) I got out of my regular job and 2) it was fun! :-D
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When I was just doing it as a hobby, I charged nothing to do cut outs. Why ask to be paid for my own in-experience is how I look at it.
I am building a small business now that includes cut outs and removals and I do have a flat fee for that. I will reduce that fee for seniors who, in a lot of cases, have very limited incomes.
I have homeowners sign a waiver/release form. I don't even attempt repair and I encourage them to have a handyman or contractor on hand to open the section up if at all possible.
I remove the bees and the comb then I scrub the area where the comb was with a scrub brush and soap or ajax to reduce the scent and hopefully prevent new colonies moving in.
We identify all the obvious openings/entrances so the handyman can close those up.
If you don't want to charge, don't feel bad or let others try to make you feel bad. Everyone has their own ways and motivations for what they do.
In terms of price, I try to be competitive with the pesticide companies. They will charge a certain fee also and if I want to encourage people to choose live removal instead of killing the bees, which I do, then I try to show them the benefits of my service, including comb removal and cleanup, that the exterminators will not do.
I still do it for that similar fee though because most people aren't thinking with calm, rational heads. They are panicked and afraid and want those bees gone. They don't care if the bees are dead or alive and will go for whatever is easy and cheap to get it done.
Big Bear
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Big Bear, you'd be surprised how many people want to save the bees. I do a lot of this so I know what I'm talking about (for my area) I have people on waiting lists for "live removal".
IMHO, I suggest charging more than the regular run of the mill kill 'em exterminators. IMHO they are not the competition and people who hire them to simply spray them and leave are not the kind of customers I want to attract.
In business it often comes down to what type of clientele you want to attract. I advertise live removal and the vast majority of those who seek me out want the bees removed and relocated.
Besides, why should I compete with someone who is putting in much less work for a job done half way. Its all about educating the customer.
I tell them the scope of the job from beginning to end. I make it very clear that leaving fermented honey and rotting comb in their walls is nothing they want to experience. After a job like that the void space will have to be opened anyway, bees are most likely to come back and they usually have to rent a pressure washer to clean up the black honey stains that appear after the honey has leaked out everywhere and down the side of the house.
I show pictures of past removals to give them an idea of what it very well looks like inside their building. I always stress to the customer that the last thing they want is to hire an exterminator who will kill the hive and leave it. Yes it is the cheaper route but it only opens up much larger cans of worms.
From an ethical standpoint the void space has to be accessed to remove the bees and contents anyway, so why not remove them live?
This is the route I took and I am a licensed pest control operator in a state with a ton of other PCOS.
Don't sell yourself short.
Attract the right kind of clientele and charge appropriately.
...JP
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JP, GREAT post. Really lays it out. My past clients have included Terminix agents and other exterminators who just wanted to save the bees.
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Thanks Iddee.
...JP
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Just to update. I've had a few (3) other calls for cut outs or trap outs and I've quoted $300. I've landed none. I've been in sales for a living for 13 years so I know how to sell a product/service. In short what I've found is I'm apparently too high as they've balked at the price to this point or said they found someone else who will do it for less. Nonetheless, I'm not changing my price. It's not worth my time and efforts to do it for less, and I'm not dying for income. I can make splits and raise my own queens for quite a bit less effort than a cutout if I'm itching for new hives.
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Wow! I'm really glad I asked, and thank you for your thoughts. I think that at this point I won't charge, but use it as an education with the aim to eventually charge. Hardwood, how do you become a licensed beekeeper in your county?
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i do it for free, but i'm picky about the ones i take. have not done any this year, but have had calls. i seem to get more and more of the creepy calls, and have been passing on even looking at those places.
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Did a cutout yesterday in the soffit, actually might have been two colonies, $500. Took two people. 7 hours. (I can't work as fast as JP, iddee, hardwood, or others. :-P)
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Just to update. I've had a few (3) other calls for cut outs or trap outs and I've quoted $300. I've landed none. I've been in sales for a living for 13 years so I know how to sell a product/service. In short what I've found is I'm apparently too high as they've balked at the price to this point or said they found someone else who will do it for less. Nonetheless, I'm not changing my price. It's not worth my time and efforts to do it for less, and I'm not dying for income. I can make splits and raise my own queens for quite a bit less effort than a cutout if I'm itching for new hives.
Very well put! Cut outs are only one way to get bees. It can be very enjoyable but also a lot of work. Catching swarms is a lot easier and very fun.
You could get on swarm lists and go and catch swarms.
Making splits, raising queens and grafting is something you could do in your own apiary. There's no one breathing down your neck there! And you can grow at your own pace.
I'm very glad I get paid to do cut outs.
...JP
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JP, for my market, I don't think I am selling myself short. I can appreciate that you have been doing removal s in your market for quite awhile, but I also know different areas have different tolerances.
I have no problem with what I charge for cutouts and I still get folks who insist that I am too high.
As to how surprised I might be how many people want to have bees removed live, I might, or , I might not. I field a lot of calls in my area and have one or two of these cut outs myself. If you were to come here, perhaps you might be surprised by how many people just want the bees gone and they don't care how.
My point is, what works for you in your market, or works for me in my market, isn't always what is going to work for others in their own markets.
offer a fair price, do the best job you can and try to educate the folks as much as they will accept the information. That's about the best advice I can give in doing cut outs and removals.
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Melli, The County license is really just something that lets the county charge you for nothing! I'm already a State Certified Building Contractor and most of what I do would be covered under my State license. For an additional $50 a year to the county I am now able to sell bees and hive products legally here so I just shut up and pay. My Contractor's license costs well over $15,000/year to maintain (license fees, continuing education, and especially that $5,800 for my insurance (even though I've never filed a claim in 30 years)). As far as I'm concerned, it's just another plot, perpetrated by "the Man" to keep the brother down.
Scott
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I did my second cutout on Father's Day. This was from the same building I did last year. Last year I did the removal during work hours as the building is on our facility grounds. This year was for free as I combined the trip with some a necessary stop at Lowes :-D
Tomorrow I will be doing a removal in another work related building (on their time). Two colonies in that building.
I probably forgot to tell my bosses that there is a possibility of bees moving back in next year :evil:
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Hardwood,
I've been removing bees and bats for over 30 yrs. Last year I decided to open up a web page (beesbatsandbeyond.com) for my job and since then I have been receiving many calls for service. I have been doing carpentry work for about 30 yrs. so I decided to go and take the Construction Supervisors Course. I did! What I found out is that the Supervisor's License costs lots of money and they are allways coming out with new courses that you need to take OR BE FINED!!!! I decided that I will just work with my Problem ANimal Control (PAC) Agents license and the hell with the Construction Sup's license. All my Jobs involving bees, bats or problem animal removal which all involve small carpentry work. Several building inspectors told me not to worry about major permits, etc. I do have several friends who are licensed for construction and I do send them jobs if required. I have the knowledge for building and construction and I do everything to CODE. I agree 100% with everything that JP and iddee posted. The thought of hurting ELDERLY people with the price does not enter my mind. I am 58 y/o and I am an elderly person!!!!! I need the work. If you charge, they will pay. I have had organizations/commercial entities who have called me because they previously called an exterminator. Several times the exterminators did the job but the bees returned. Most exterminators either do not know or don't want to let the customer know that you just don't kill bees and plug up the hole. Whatever they leave inside the walls and ceilings will cause future problems and more money for the customer. I make sure to let the customers know these facts and they are happy to hear what I have to say. Solve the problem, save the bees, prevent future infestations BUT pay for a well done job. I guaranty all my work, be it bee removal, carpentry or whatever. I have never had a problem with the elderly not wanting to pay.
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Ohhh...I forgot to mention....I don't show up at a job site for less then $300.00. That's just for show. I used to charge $25.00/hr. for carpentry work but it is going up to a minimum of $35.00/hr. I don't work for free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are not too many people in my area that do BEE WORK and LEGIT CARPENTRY WORK to CODE.
There are free bee removals-but no carpentry work. There are carpenters-but no bee removal.
Once again....minimum charge...$300.00...that's my price and that should be a minimum for ANYONE to charge!...Regardless of age or location!!!
Are there any lawyers or doctors that charge $29.95 for their services because of people's age!?!?!?!!?
COME ON!!!!!!!!
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I see the price point but I've heard of senior citizen discounts all my life.
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Once again....minimum charge...$300.00...that's my price and that should be a minimum for ANYONE to charge!
I think it's more than a bit presumptuous to suggest that everyone should have a similar minimum fee.
You have something that works for you in your market, fine, dandy for you. let's leave it at that shall ,we? telling others how to run their business is awful bureaucratic.
The beauty of being in America is you can do your business your way, I can do my business my way and the next person can do business their way.
Are there any lawyers or doctors that charge $29.95 for their services because of people's age!?!?!?!!?
Actually, yes there are many. You might notice there are many lawyers who normally charge very high rates, will occasionally take on 'Pro Bono' work,
Many law offices and doctors offices adopt what is called a 'sliding scale' fee based on income.
As a matter of fact, why are we comparing bee removals to doctors and lawyers alone? I know of plumbers, electricians, and contractors of all types of work that will offer discounts and services to people based on age and income.
It's called being part of one's community not just taking advantage of the people in it.
If you don't want to offer these types of prices, then don't. I for one and many others will never tell you how to run your business.
It's good to see how other business do things and learn why they do it. It helps build perspective in your own business.
However, you should do what works best for you and the community you run your business in.
Big Bear
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bigbearomaha,
I understand your point...BUT...
<I think it's more than a bit presumptuous to suggest that everyone should have a similar minimum fee.> I think the discussion here is "how much to charge" and we are all making statements of what "we" charge. You have the right, as you said, to charge whatever you like.
<Are there any lawyers or doctors that charge $29.95 for their services because of people's age?>
<Actually, yes there are many. Etc...>
Yes, you are right. But these lawyers do charge according to their background, experience and to make or keep their name. Lawyers are sometimes required to take a "free" case by the court (so many cases/hrs. per month). Some lawyers only charge if they "win" the case. As far as "sliding scale", don't worry, those doctors do get paid their fee in the long run (insurance, etc.). I also know plumbers and electricians who do give discounts.....after they increase the price....this is done everywhere. The job is worth $1,000, they say it will cost $1,500 but they will give the costumer a $500 break. They still made their $1,000.
WD,
I know that there are "senior discounts" all the time. These discounts are for consumer items and not for services. As an example, food stores allways have perishable losses and they "write it off" at the end of the month. Discounts are included in this fashion.
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It still does un-nerve me a bit to consider doing a removal w/o insurance. Accidents do, unfortunately, happen. Anyone ever hear of lawsuits as a result of a cut-out gone bad?
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No, but I have heard of homeowners being successfully sued when someone they hired for other work got hurt.
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I think the discussion here is "how much to charge" and we are all making statements of what "we" charge. You have the right, as you said, to charge whatever you like.
Exactly. not how much everyone should charge across the board, as you seem to attempt to dictate.
that should be a minimum for ANYONE to charge!
your words, not mine.
I would like you to verify that all those businesses only give discounts after jacking up the price first. I am thinking you are doing some assuming there.
I'm sorry you seem to have such a jaded opinion on businesses around you. I am lucky to know several businesses in my area who actually do not engage in those practices. Yes, there are plenty enough out there that do. But not all of them. I choose not to rob my community, but to bring value to it instead. I hope others feel the same way.
Big Bear
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From reading this set of posts, it appears that some insurance is appropriate and wise. So, if you're a side liner, who sells honey and does some cut-outs & traps, what $$$ value of coverage do you need? Do you need two types of insurance?
Regards,
Tucker1
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I charge $300 minimum here in Austin, TX. Plus extra expenses if I incur them. Ya, I lose 3 out of 4 callers because that is too much, but I don't need the removal fee, hell, I have to give it too the wife to let me keep bees. I do it for the fun.
I hate it when I find myself doing a job for less, because I give up a day of my life for a hive that has a 50/50 chance to live. It is far easier to trap swarms to get free bees.
My exceptions are helping broke little old ladies and broke single moms.
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<I would like you to verify that all those businesses only give discounts after jacking up the price first.>
Verify? Why? I am not trying to convince or investigate anyone. I'm not even trying to start an argument. You are taking this discussion defensively. It is just a discussion about "how much does one charge for a bee removal".
<I am thinking you are doing some assuming there.>
No assumptions only facts. How do I know? Because I investigated them in the past. That was my job.
Sorry for any inconvenience. I'll just move on to another topic.
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Edited:
I offer my apologies to all the forum members. I have had a pretty stressful past couple of days and I let myself get a bit carried away in my discussion/disagreement with gaucho. Suffice it to say, I hope everyone runs things the way it works best for them and y'all have a good day.
Big Bear
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:pop:
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gaucho you can charge what you want. i can do it for free. isn't this a great country??
i don't do cutouts for people who act like an a$$ when i talk to them. wouldn't hire anyone who acted like an a$$ either.
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Kathy, I had a guy call me late one evening about a swarm that he claims just moved into his soffit. I was in the area so I went by.
I told him I would call him in a few days to see if the bees had settled in or moved on. He had an air about him during my visit.
He called late the next day and left a message on the machine. His message "Are you going to come get these bees or what!"
Guess who didn't get a return phone call? :lol:
...JP