Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: 2-Wheeler on October 21, 2007, 10:36:16 pm

Title: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on October 21, 2007, 10:36:16 pm
We found one of our hives in bad shape during our recent inspection, but don't know what the problem is/was. (Possibly AFB?) Any help diagnosing would be appreciated.  Here are the conditions we observed:
The population of bees seems good.
Bees are easily agitated during inspection.
A few yellow-jackets were observed (under attack) while inspecting.
The upper and lower deeps were nearly void of all honey stores!  See photo of sample frame.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2035/1680955945_c57153a174.jpg)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1680955945/in/set-72157594553062456/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1680955945/in/set-72157594553062456/)

Brood area is spotty with some dead bees just emerging in brood area (See photo). But, we didn't see any sunken or punctured cappings. Nor did we see any melted down larvae or black scale.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/1659784289_88783e1f9c.jpg)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1659784289/in/set-72157594553062456/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1659784289/in/set-72157594553062456/)

Is there anything we can do to save this hive? 

(The other hive, nearby seems quite normal and has excellent stores of capped honey.)
Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Understudy on October 21, 2007, 10:44:32 pm
Your hive looks fine. It looks like the queen has cut back on laying for winter. The few brood cells that remained looked okay.

The hive if it has enough stores should be fine.

Recommendation:
Leave it alone.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on October 21, 2007, 11:39:03 pm
Maybe I wasn't clear. There are effectively NO stores.  The small band of capped honey on the frame shown is as good as it was anywhere in the hive.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Jerrymac on October 21, 2007, 11:51:16 pm
Did you have honey supers on at any time and remove them?
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Brian D. Bray on October 21, 2007, 11:58:47 pm
I would say that your queen reduced laying for 2 reasons; 1. it's late in the season and time for it and, 2. There has been a dearth in your area for the last month or more.  Bees wil consume their own stores when in a dearth leaving them nothing to over winter on.  It is time to push the sugar syrup to them if you want to keep them alive through the winter.  I would fed with as many feders as I can put in/on the hive.  A super wil hold 3 gallon cans of syrup at 1 time.
If you decide to use a Boardman feeder too, reduce the entrance to about a 1 inch opening by putting a piece of wood the same width as the feeder at the entrance of the hive.  Place the wood so that the entrance is as far from the feeder as possible, that will give the guard bees a better opportunity to guard the hive.

Is there any sign of robbing?  It didn't look like it from the pictures but the evidence is not always on the frames but in the crumbs of wax all over the bottom board.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Moonshae on October 22, 2007, 08:01:00 am
It looks like the tongues on those dead emerging bees are sticking out. Isn't that a sign of pesticide poisoning?
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Understudy on October 22, 2007, 08:14:55 am
It looks like the tongues on those dead emerging bees are sticking out. Isn't that a sign of pesticide poisoning?

Could be a sign of a dearth.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Michael Bush on October 22, 2007, 08:28:37 am
I'd feed them until they have some stores or winter sets in.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Moonshae on October 22, 2007, 02:49:52 pm
It looks like the tongues on those dead emerging bees are sticking out. Isn't that a sign of pesticide poisoning?

Could be a sign of a dearth.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

That can be added to something I learned this year. :)
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: JP on October 22, 2007, 03:39:51 pm
I agree, it looks like the hive is fine but for a lack of honey stores. Yes you need to feed them as much as possible. Get that feed on, now!
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on October 22, 2007, 04:01:56 pm
Thanks for all the replies. It is frustrating to see one of the hives in a declining state. We'd like to save them.
Quote
Did you have honey supers on at any time and remove them?
Not recently, the supers were removed about six weeks ago, but production was down considerably for this hive.

Quote
Is there any sign of robbing? 
Nothing that we observed.

Quote
It looks like the tongues on those dead emerging bees are sticking out. Isn't that a sign of pesticide poisoning?
Yes they are sticking out and pointing up. That was curious for me too. But hive 10 feet away seems fine.

Quote
Could be a sign of a dearth.
Quote
2. There has been a dearth in your area for the last month or more.
Not likely, since it has been wetter and warmer than usual this fall with many flowers still blooming up until this morning (first freeze). Also as I noted above, the hive located with 10 feet has excellent stores and there is no sign they have tapped into them in any way. 

Quote
It is time to push the sugar syrup to them if you want to keep them alive through the winter.
Quote
I'd feed them until they have some stores or winter sets in.
Quote
Yes you need to feed them as much as possible. Get that feed on, now!

That looks like the consistent advice and yes we put 2 gallons on this hive Saturday. The problem now is freezing temps are coming frequently and will soon be nearly every night. How late can we keep the liquid syrup on the hive?
We are using a hive-top-feeder like this one: http://www.mannlakeltd.com/images/catalog/feeding_bees.gif (http://www.mannlakeltd.com/images/catalog/feeding_bees.gif)

Thanks,
David

Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Moonshae on October 22, 2007, 04:40:46 pm
Fondant? A nice 25-lb block on the inner cover would allow them to cluster there and feed for a couple months, which could be added to as they consume the bulk of it. Not ideal, but it seems like you're short of options.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: rdy-b on October 22, 2007, 11:11:13 pm
check for mites the dead bees with there tongues sticking out are a sign of PMS parasitic mite syndrome.it is starting the downward spiral of crashing.even if mite counts are low remember it is the viruses that they vector. what did you treat with and what time of the year did you treat. RDY-B
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on October 23, 2007, 12:26:59 am
check for mites the dead bees with there tongues sticking out are a sign of PMS parasitic mite syndrome.it is starting the downward spiral of crashing.even if mite counts are low remember it is the viruses that they vector. what did you treat with and what time of the year did you treat. RDY-B

We treated with Apiguard for 4 weeks, finishing about a week before this inspection.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: rdy-b on October 23, 2007, 12:45:16 am
did you see any deformed wings? RDY-B
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Cindi on October 23, 2007, 01:09:04 am
Moonshae, I think your question about pesticide poisoning was overlooked and needs an answer.

Yes, it is common when bees have experienced pesticide poisoning for the tongue to protrude. But that is referring to when the bees have died more commonly when they are seen outside the hive (or inside on the bottomboard).  This is kind of hard to explain.  The bees that were poisoned would be seen outside sooner than they would be seen as emerging brood with protruding tongues.  Hope this may add a LITTLE bit of help with tongues protruding and pesticide poisoning.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, Cindi
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: rdy-b on October 23, 2007, 01:23:27 am
Most of the viruses transmit vertically through the queen to the brood i would not be surprised at this point if there is no queen in the colony -if there is a queen -I believe this colony will have expired by Xmas RDY-B
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on October 23, 2007, 03:33:04 pm
Quote
did you see any deformed wings? RDY-B
None that we observed.

Most of the viruses transmit vertically through the queen to the brood i would not be surprised at this point if there is no queen in the colony -if there is a queen -I believe this colony will have expired by Xmas RDY-B

Queen is present and accounted for, see center of picture (taken same day as pictures above):
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/1660650390_e0e9c3544e.jpg)
Details: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1660650390/in/set-72157594553062456/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbroberg/1660650390/in/set-72157594553062456/)

Also we observed no drones during this inspection, while during the summer they were several. But I think they have probably been given the boot by the ladies at this point in the season.

Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: thumper on October 28, 2007, 02:12:34 am
Looks like stravation to me. the queen will not lay if theres no way to feed extra mouths. This late in the year I would start feeding yesterday. Does the other colony have enough honey to share?
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Kathyp on October 28, 2007, 02:26:59 am
i agree about the feed.  it doesn't not necessarily follow that because there have been rains and bloom, there is adequate nectar.  in fact, we had a very poor year here with much rain and bloom. 

as long as the day temps are getting warm enough for them to be active, they will take the syrup.  you can also put dry sugar on the inner board.  you may moisten it with a bit of water from a spray bottle.  this is more of an emergency measure, but better than starving.  this i do during the winter so that i know they are ok until i can thaw out and check again.

some hives will store more and earlier.  i had one that was almost full, while others had barely started stores when the weather began to change. 
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Old Timer on October 28, 2007, 03:14:20 am
maybe they are sicking out their tongues because they're hungry and looking for a handout:). they've been in that cell awhile with nothing to eat. this hive will die without a lot TLC. since the bees haven't collect much nectar, you may want to consider something wrong with the foragers. something could be causing them to die prematurely, like a virus or nosema. send a sample to one of the bee labs to test for nosema. since you are now feeding them consider getting some fumidal to put in the syrup. i wouldn't take any stores from any other hives to prop them up with. if they have a virus they are doing you and your other bees a favor by dying out.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on November 05, 2007, 11:02:36 pm
Update:  We've had a full top-feeder with that sweet syrup on for two weeks now, and they're not interested!
Surprisingly there is no evidence they took any! We went out a week ago and topped it off, and checked again this weekend and there might have been some evaporative loss, but very little if any. Also there were no visible bees in the screen area near the feeding opening.

We've had plenty of warm days in the past two weeks and was mid-70s yesterday. We've seen them circulating about and even some congestion at the entrance late in the day.  But they must be starving.   :'(  I'm not sure there is anything else we can do for them? 

-David
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: annette on November 05, 2007, 11:12:52 pm
I  just have to ask this question, because I had a strange experience with the Mann Lake feeder. I bought a brand new Mann Lake feeder like the one you are using and I placed it directly on the hive with sugar syrup in it and the bees absolutely would not go up into the feeder for several days. I finally took the feeder off and washed it very thoroughly in soapy water to get any plastic smells off the feeder. I detected a plastic smell coming from the feeder when I opened the hive and I believe that is why the bees would not go up into the feeder. When I cleaned the feeder really well and placed it back on the hive with new syrup, then they drank like mad. If this is a new feeder from Mann Lake, you might want to make sure and give it a good cleaning before placing on the hive. The bees smell that new plastic odor and will not drink from it.

Let me know. I feel sad for the hive.

Good Luck
Annette
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Cindi on November 05, 2007, 11:17:09 pm
Annette.  I remember you speaking about this in a post a while back.  Bees probably have very sensitive scent and this was very obvious that your bees were very adverse to the feeder scent.

David, I wouldn't discount what Annette is saying.  Why don't you try that?  Clean it out to get rid of any plastic scent, if there is one, it certainly cannot hurt, and maybe a lot of good will come through this experience.  Please let us know what avenue you travel down.  Beautiful day, greatest of life.  Cindi
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: JP on November 05, 2007, 11:52:17 pm
Place some sugar or a baggy with feed on top the frames and see what happens.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: rdy-b on November 06, 2007, 12:37:48 am
give them a frame of honey and score it several times with your hive tool from the other hive -but by no means in-till you are sure -let the others feed from that colony or mix any frames from it - they will eat the honey RDY-B
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Finsky on November 06, 2007, 02:23:12 pm
Update:  We've had a full top-feeder with that sweet syrup on for two weeks now, and they're not interested!

That is inside normal limits

Look inside the hive what is going on there: how much bees, how much capped honey how much brood, are they OK?

.............How much extra space........

Quote
But they must be starving.   :'(  I'm not sure there is anything else we can do for them? 


- Limit the winter room as big as bees densely occupy frames
- If hive has empty combs, take extra box with empty combs.
- Pour syrup into combs in slanting position
- Put those frames in empty box and box and wintering box over that.

Give that load in the evening that robbers do not come to the party.


Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on November 06, 2007, 04:37:15 pm
I  just have to ask this question, because I had a strange experience with the Mann Lake feeder. I bought a brand new Mann Lake feeder like the one you are using and I placed it directly on the hive with sugar syrup in it and the bees absolutely would not go up into the feeder for several days. I finally took the feeder off and washed it very thoroughly in soapy water to get any plastic smells off the feeder. I detected a plastic smell coming from the feeder when I opened the hive and I believe that is why the bees would not go up into the feeder. When I cleaned the feeder really well and placed it back on the hive with new syrup, then they drank like mad. If this is a new feeder from Mann Lake, you might want to make sure and give it a good cleaning before placing on the hive. The bees smell that new plastic odor and will not drink from it.

Interesting theory, however this is the same feeder that has been used with this same hive for the past 2 years. They always took from it previously. I always wash it out after taking it off the hive.

Place some sugar or a baggy with feed on top the frames and see what happens.

Yes, I may try that next. 

Quote
- Limit the winter room as big as bees densely occupy frames
- If hive has empty combs, take extra box with empty combs.
- Pour syrup into combs in slanting position
- Put those frames in empty box and box and wintering box over that.
Finsky, thanks. Yes there are too many empty frames (see OP).  The hive currently has two deeps and and I'm a bit worried that if I push them down to own one deep, it may be more stressful during the coming winter season. 

I may try your suggestion of pouring the syrup into the empty combs. I've never done that, can you describe the process with more detail or point me to a link?  Do I remove them first and pour in a convenient area away from the hive and bring them back, or just do it right there by the open hive (in the evening as you suggest)?   How many frames should I do?

Thanks all.
David
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Kathyp on November 06, 2007, 05:06:36 pm
finsky made me push mine down last year  :-).  it was the right thing.  if you only have enough bees for one box, go down to one box.  you have cold winters.  they'll have a better chance if they don't have so much room to keep warm.  you can watch stores and swap in honey frames during the winter as you need to.  you can also do the dry sugar thing.  i poor about 1 cup per hive on the inner cover.  when they have taken most of it, i replenish.  this will keep them from starving until you have a day warm enough to get in and check frames, or get some syrup to them.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Finsky on November 06, 2007, 11:57:41 pm
.

 The hive currently has two deeps and and I'm a bit worried that if I push them down to own one deep, it may be more stressful during the coming winter season. 

  How many frames should I do?

[/quote]

Fist you should look after cold night, how many frames bee ball occupy.
Then look frames, how much they have allready and put best capped frames, pollen and brood into smaller space.
Insulated box is good for small colony and especially during spring brooding.

Bees need not extra space until new bees will emerge in spring.

I just looked my hives when I gived oxalic acid. Couple of colonies were small. I take extra food frames off and store them for spring. Then I put smallest colonies in fire wood shelter for worst winter.

Sugar on frames helps nothing.

.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Kathyp on November 07, 2007, 11:57:25 am
finsky, the dry sugar on the inner cover is only there for emergency feeding if you can't/don't get into the hive and supplies run low.  i had such a bad honey year that almost all of my stores are from syrup feeding.  since i won't be able to feed syrup again for a few months, the granulated sugar is just a little insurance against starvation.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Finsky on November 07, 2007, 03:52:46 pm
finsky, the dry sugar on the inner cover is only there for emergency feeding if you can't/don't get into the hive and supplies run low.  i had such a bad honey year that almost all of my stores are from syrup feeding.  since i won't be able to feed syrup again for a few months, the granulated sugar is just a little insurance against starvation.

I give to my hives every year emergency feeding. Nowadays I pour strong syrup direct into combs. 5 kg sugar is normal what I give at one time. It ensure food for one week .  Mating nucs are same thing. They need often extra feeding and I give it with pouring syrup.

I use granulated sugar as syrup. Some has "feeding frame", it is long and flat plastic box which are installed into hive and filled with granule sugar. Works well they say.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Kathyp on November 07, 2007, 03:58:36 pm
the syrup would be my choice also.  it's the rain that keeps me from opening my hives for long periods of time.  if i open them and everything gets wet, then it's cold at night, i don't think that's to healthy for them.  sometimes we have better weather in the winter and the syrup would be a good choce on those dry days.  other times, we have rain and wind every day all winter.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Finsky on November 07, 2007, 04:14:11 pm
the syrup would be my choice also.  it's the rain that keeps me from opening my hives for long periods of time.

I live in capital city and I visit on my summer cottage only at weekend. I take care that they have food all the time in summer for over a week.

In winter I do not touch hives. They have got their winter food in September and they live with it to next May.

If hives are short of food, I open hive even if it is -20C temperature - or I put that syrup box under the hive and I need not open it.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on November 11, 2007, 07:18:06 pm
Thanks everyone for the good advice. Here is an Update (11/11/07): 
We had some warm weather again today so we did another inspection of the troubled hive. There was some good news which was encouraging, but further mystery surrounds this hive. 

First, we were all prepared to take the upper deep and push them down to just one deep for the winter, but when we opened the hive, we found good news - HONEY and lots of it.  Mysteriously, there were now several very heavy frames completely capped with honey in this hive. I would estimate the upper deep at 50%-60% capped honey now!  The frames that weren't full, were being worked furiously to store necter and get it capped. Here's a photo of one of those frames not yet filled:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/1972295583_8bc8ad3f84_t.jpg)
Full Size Image (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/1972295583_0d83ef1628_o.jpg)

The mystery goes to the source of this new found honey. The top feeder was still full and there were almost no bees feeding from the syrup in the top feeder.  Where did they get all these new stores?  Maybe they stole this honey from somewhere else? 

We did see a number of dead yellow jackets floating in the syrup. How they got in, is also a mystery.  Perhaps this is what made the syrup unappetizing for the bees?  We cleaned it up and removed the dead yellow jackets, but left the syrup.  Here is what that looked like:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2186/1973108632_b08a0b994c_t.jpg)
Full Sized Image (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2186/1973108632_46c0fde715_o.jpg)

Finally, we did see some brood and larvae  in the upper frames:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/1972288605_dc98cbf1cb_t.jpg)
Full Size Link (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/1972288605_e50c42fbe1_o.jpg)

We also saw the queen on one of the brood frames, but didn't get a photo this time. After all this, we decided to leave the upper deep and keep feeding.  I'm a bit more hopeful they will make it now.   I also saw one stray yellow jacket on the frames while we were inspecting and one later on the hive cover after we closed it up, but how they got into the hive-top-feeder has us puzzled. There were some small cracks between the frames, which seemed to be attracting some attention from the outside. Perhaps the yellow jackets were squeezing through?  To make sure that wasn't happening, I sealed the cracks with some duct tape.  More news later as this mystery continues.   

-David
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Kathyp on November 11, 2007, 07:49:16 pm
that's a good number of yellowjackets.  wonder how many didn't drown?  :-)  that may have been the main source of your problem!  if that's not your only hive, you should probably check the others closely for robbing problems.  even strong hives can have problems.  the signs are obvious and you know them when you see them.  robbed comb is ripped open and ragged.  make sure all have entrance reducers.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Finsky on November 12, 2007, 05:05:25 am

As far I understanbd your pictures, you have not totally bee covered frames in your hive.

* First, deminish tha number of frames that bee totally cover combs.
* gather capped combs for bees for winter
* Feed brood to birds. They surely contain mites.

Stop feeding.

That concept depends how mucxh you really has bees.

* Deminish combs.
* shake  bees from extra combe in front of hive
* if next day bees hang outside, add a comb.  If not, hive is at least too small.

I think that you hive is too cold and that is why bees do not take syrup from feeding box.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: rdy-b on December 31, 2007, 11:24:49 pm
did they make it? are they snow bound  8-) hope they made it- RDY-B
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on January 21, 2008, 04:26:30 pm
There was a warm day a few weeks ago and I went out and had a quick look from the outside. The troubled hive was alive with quite a few bees going in & out for some fresh air. However, it seems to have a dysentery problem.  That must have been what weakened them last year and we didn't catch it.   Now they will be lucky if they can hang on long enough for it to be warm enough for some medicated syrup. 

Here was a posting from almost one year ago, but the problem seems worse now.
Previous posting (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=7761.msg48147#msg48147)
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Cindi on January 21, 2008, 11:06:48 pm
David, I looked at the pictures in the post made last February.  Those bee poops on the boxes to me did not look extraordinary.  My hives always look like that after the winter cluster has broken and they bees have a chance to fly to defecate.  They don't defecate in their hive unless they are sick.  I am hedging a bet that there is not any nosema or dysentry with your colony.  You say it is worse than last winter, but maybe you have more bees than the last time you took the pictures, maybe more bees were flyin' and a poopin'.  I am hoping this is the case, plain and simple.  Regardless, keep us posted and tell us how things made out.

As an aside, how many months/weeks have the bees in the bee cluster would you estimate?  Have a wonderful, great night and day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on January 25, 2008, 03:11:02 pm
Cindi,

I hope that is true. I will post some fresh pictures this weekend.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Cindi on January 26, 2008, 09:39:25 am
David, good, good luck.  Let's see the pictures when you can get them into the forum.  Some of my colonies broke cluster yesterday for awhile and there was a lot of bee poop on the pretty white hives, hee, hee.  Have an awesome day, Cindi
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on January 26, 2008, 01:19:09 pm
Okay, Here are the shots I took when they were out on January 5th 2008:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2140/2221119198_b511c0ddd5_t.jpg)
Full Size Image Link (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2140/2221119198_c579727c5c_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2050/2221119474_aeb984560f_t.jpg)
Full Size Image Link (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2050/2221119474_c205a6403d_o.jpg)

And these pictures were taken this morning:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2215/2221120098_8c988dc5e4_m.jpg)
The troubled hive. Full Size Image (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2215/2221120098_385cd0629c_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/2220326233_729566d959_m.jpg)
The healthy hive nearby. Full size image (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/2220326233_de516b09b8_o.jpg)

The second hive seems immaculate by comparison.  Does this look like dysentery?  If so, how soon can I treat?

Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Brian D. Bray on January 27, 2008, 01:51:58 am
You've got nosema.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on January 27, 2008, 06:29:18 pm
Thanks Brian. 

I don't have the microscope to confirm, but let's assume it is nosema. Is there anything I can do for them, without resorting to chemicals?

We had planned to requeen this hive. Is that still a good idea?
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Michael Bush on January 27, 2008, 10:45:12 pm
>Is there anything I can do for them, without resorting to chemicals?

You can wipe things down with vinegar to kill the spores.  If you really want to treat with something more natural, thymol is used in Europe for Nosema (as fumidil is illegal there because it suspected of causing birth defects).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Romahawk on January 28, 2008, 01:02:29 pm

You can wipe things down with vinegar to kill the spores.  If you really want to treat with something more natural, thymol is used in Europe for Nosema (as fumidil is illegal there because it suspected of causing birth defects).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema

How long will the spores live if untreated?? I read it somewhere but darned if I can find it.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on January 28, 2008, 03:23:13 pm
You can wipe things down with vinegar to kill the spores.  If you really want to treat with something more natural, thymol is used in Europe for Nosema (as fumidil is illegal there because it suspected of causing birth defects).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema
Thanks Michael. Your site is always very helpful and it looks like you have done some redesign to make it even better. Nice work.

I haven't been able to find anything on this vinegar wipe-down process. What exactly do you wipe (seems like the spores would be everywhere)? How much vinegar at what concentration?  Is this similar to the "Cyclone" vinegar treatment?  When should it be done?

We used thymol in the form of ApiGuard on this hive for 4 weeks last fall. I thought it needed to be fairly warm to use that again. Should I reapply this spring? Are there other forms besides the slow-release gel?

So far they are still alive, but I can tell they are stressed. Thanks to everyone on this site for all the helpful suggestions.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: KONASDAD on January 28, 2008, 04:25:44 pm
One thing I can answer is your Yellow Jacket problem. I use the same feeder. I now put a piece of screen on top of feeder(slightly larger than feeder) and then put on telescoping lid. It prevents the samller YJ from getting into syrup from lid area. I also had this dysentry issue last winter after along cold spell. Mine made it. I've reached conclusion everyone has mites and probably nosema too. When hives get weak, the parasites take over, other hives will survive. Your hive was weakned this fall for unknown reasons and now its struggling. Maybe it couldn't compete w/ hive next dor w/ dearth and all.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Michael Bush on January 28, 2008, 07:35:43 pm
>How long will the spores live if untreated?? I read it somewhere but darned if I can find it

I don't know.  Seems like it was quite a while.  But not nearly as long as AFB.

>I haven't been able to find anything on this vinegar wipe-down process. What exactly do you wipe (seems like the spores would be everywhere)? How much vinegar at what concentration?

You can wipe up any stains you see with straight vinegar.

As far as the rest you'll need to fumigate if you want to get the rest and that takes about 80% acetic acid which you'll have to get from a photo supply place.  I'm not sure how to do it as I never have.  But I bet you can find it on the internet.  :)

>We used thymol in the form of ApiGuard on this hive for 4 weeks last fall. I thought it needed to be fairly warm to use that again. Should I reapply this spring? Are there other forms besides the slow-release gel?

For nosema it would need to be in syrup.  Again, I bet the recipe is on the internet somewhere.  Try a search on "nosema" and "thymol"

Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: 2-Wheeler on February 13, 2008, 10:13:26 pm
Alas, the battle has ended, the disease won, the bees lost.  :'(

We had low 70s today, so BeeGood went out to assess the condition of the hives. There were a few bees out taking cleansing flights, but inside was a sad story. Most of the frames in the upper deep had clusters of dead bees. Many died with their heads deep into the comb, but even more died just as they were standing, stuck permanently in a somewhat natural pose. This picture shows there was some remaining honey in the comb right where they died, but it didn't seem to help. There were many small groups of dead bees scattered throughout the hive. There didn't seem to be any single cluster.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2297/2264185940_71610b75a6.jpg)
View 1200x860 image (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2297/2264185940_e60bf7b43a_o.jpg)

With it pretty clear they had nosema, I'm beginning to wonder if this was a case of the more severe Nosema ceranae strain.
Randy Oliver wrote:
Quote
Amazingly, in a few short years N. ceranae appears to have supplanted N. apis throughout much of North America and the world!  In many areas, it is now difficult to find the previously common N. apis!... One European researcher feels that we have been so distracted by varroa, that we have simply overlooked the poor buildup, queen failures, poor honey crops, and colony collapse due to N. ceranae.
More from Randy Oliver on Nosema: http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48 (http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48)

The good news was that the nearby hive seems to be doing much better. A quick peek into that hive, she verified that they still had good supplies of honey stores and had a much larger population. She decided not to start feeding after inspecting two nearly full frames, near the center of the upper box. This second (healthy) hive also seems to be amazingly clean compared to the dead hive. The wax and comb appears clean and very light colored, while the dead hive has very dark colored comb.
-David
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Cindi on February 14, 2008, 09:31:26 am
David, well, try, try, try again.  It is always sad to lose a colony, but keep that chin up!!!  Have a wonderful and awesome day, love this life we live.  Cindi
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: JP on February 14, 2008, 09:40:10 am
I see beebread but no honey, I think they starved.

....JP
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: abejaruco on February 27, 2008, 12:22:02 am
Quote
I see beebread but no honey, I think they starved.
Yes, I think so too.

Life is like mathematics, we are doing derivatives,....functions...integrals...and we forget the 2+2.
Title: Re: Diagnosis please
Post by: Michael Bush on February 27, 2008, 08:37:58 am
>The wax and comb appears clean and very light colored, while the dead hive has very dark colored comb.

All old comb is dark colored.  It means there are cocoons in the comb (in other words it means it's been used to rear brood).  It means nothing else.  Dysentary does not prove Nosema.  For proof of Nosema, you'll need a microscope.  ALL bees have dysentary in the spring after confinement.  The real question you need to answer is if it was Nosema.