Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Squirrelhenge on January 20, 2013, 12:10:20 pm

Title: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Squirrelhenge on January 20, 2013, 12:10:20 pm
The Ethicist column from Jan. 18 in the New York Times deals with the question of whether hobbyist beekeepers should relocate their backyard hive after a family with members who are allergic to bee stings moved in next door. Thoughts on the situation and the Ethicist's advice?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/magazine/should-your-neighbors-allergy-be-your-concern.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/magazine/should-your-neighbors-allergy-be-your-concern.html)

Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: JP on January 20, 2013, 01:23:51 pm
If a neighbor approached me in this same situation I would move the hives. Most neighbors are generally okay with a neighbor keeping bees unless it poses some kind of threat or hindrance to their particular lifestyle.

You can fight or ignore the neighbor if there is no particular ordinance against keeping them but eventually you will lose out in one way or another and this only puts a black eye on bee keeping.


...JP
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: derekm on January 20, 2013, 02:56:39 pm
the argument assumes that having bees next door increases the probabilty of being stung by an insect. As bees roam  upto 3 miles, the probability of being stung has not been significantly increased.
The probability of being stung is more related to whether the allergic person/family has plants that the bees find attractive. Thus the article is pontificating about a false argument, the pontification is based on ignorance of the real causes of  risk.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: AllenF on January 20, 2013, 03:30:28 pm
It is along the line of peanut better allergy.  If you have a child with a nut allergy, can you keep all nuts out of the house of the kids that go to school with your child?   
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: RHBee on January 20, 2013, 04:23:37 pm
It is along the line of peanut better allergy.  If you have a child with a nut allergy, can you keep all nuts out of the house of the kids that go to school with your child?   
AllenF, The obvious answer is No. My grandson was allergic to tree nuts and peanuts. His reaction to them was pretty scary. There was an epi pen with him everywhere he went. For that reason I would move my hives. It may be an inconvenience for me but it woud give the family greater peace of mind.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Kathyp on January 20, 2013, 05:44:04 pm
i'd probably want to see some verification of the allergy.  if i had a buck for every phone caller that said "i have bees in my yard, and i'm allergic!!"  i'd be wealthy.

i'm not much into making people feel better, but i'd think about moving them anyway.  you can bet that if the kid got stung and did have a reaction the parents would sue and even if it didn't come to anything, you'd be paying for the lawyer and court costs.

 
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: derekm on January 20, 2013, 08:15:35 pm
...  you can bet that if the kid got stung and did have a reaction the parents would sue and even if it didn't come to anything, you'd be paying for the lawyer and court costs.

 
a question: upto what  distance from the hive can you be sued for the actions of your bees.
another question : who has been sued because of their bees?
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 20, 2013, 08:23:45 pm
I´d move my hives after they got rid of all flowers and trees that could encourage and attract bees and other insects on there property.


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 20, 2013, 08:38:09 pm
After reading the article I started to think a little.  :roll:

Do those three people have the right to deny the whole neighborhood unpollinated gardens with no fruit an berries as a result??

Are they going to foot the bill to pollinate the neighborhood? , They could always import some farmers from China, I've hear they are good at that sort of thing.  :roll:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: BlueBee on January 20, 2013, 09:17:02 pm
First sentence of article: “it’s not ethical to pursue a recreational activity that puts unwilling third parties in nonspeculative danger, regardless of the legality.”

I was going to make some comment about how quickly some people like to apply ethics, but I think I'll retract that.  No point in stirring up a hornets nest.  ;)
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: 10framer on January 20, 2013, 11:39:44 pm
yeah, i'd need to see proof of the allergies.  i had a hive at my house in town and my neighbors harassed me about it.  they were really just mad because their cat went into my back yard with my three large dogs and got itself killed.  later the wife admitted that some neighborhood kids may have thrown the cat in my yard because they had taken them to court a few times.  my point is that some people just thrive on drama. 
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Gord on January 21, 2013, 12:47:27 am
If they bought in to the neighbourhood, I would relocate on my own lot if mutually beneficial, otherwise no.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: splitrock on January 21, 2013, 07:02:46 am
Yawnn!!! What a shortsighted argument, imho.

I'd like to know what kind of person everyone thinks would even consider moving their family so close to danger, knowing their severe allergic conditions?

I'd likely be the one moving away with my bees if I had a clan so inconsiderate of me and mine moving in next door.

 
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: lazy shooter on January 21, 2013, 09:27:46 am
The New York Times and ethics has got to be the most blatant oxymoron I have read for some time.  Since deep in my heart, I believe we are all brothers I would move the bees.  But like Edward said, something is needed to pollinate the local flora.  It is possible to raise children in a world where no bees exist?
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 21, 2013, 10:33:57 am
I've heard beekeepers claim in public talks that deadly allergies are not from honeybees, but only wasps and hornets.
I've also got a childhood fried that died from a honey bee sting allergy.

Some people are deadly allergic....more claim to be.

When someone tells me of allergy concerns, I always ask if they carry an epipen..... if they do not I find it difficult to believe that they believe they are one sting away from a scary reaction or death.

We teach new beekeepers every year, and I always recommend that new bees have themselves and their family tested.  We have had students with allergies doing hands on work....I would never allow that for someone that doesn't appear to understand and take responsibility for the inherent risks.

Deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Satch on January 21, 2013, 10:41:44 am
With this being in New York, I'm surprised that the Governor or Mayor hasn't already passed an ordinance outlawing beekeeping.  These little critters could be used as a terror weapon or weapon of mass destruction.  If you don't think so, knock one over with a tractor sometime and let me know how  you fare.

For the record, if there was documentation of a life threatening allergy, I would be nice enough to move them a little distance away.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 21, 2013, 10:46:44 am
if there was documentation of a life threatening allergy, I would be nice enough to move them a little distance away.

Even I would consider this AFTER they got rid of all plant that could attract any insects on there property!

Why should the beekeeper bee the only one to bee forced to go to extreme measures.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: JP on January 21, 2013, 10:51:07 am
First off, we don't have many details about the scenario.

Its apparently a hypothetical but let's say the facts are as they stand, three individuals who are in fact highly allergic to bee stings move in right next store and approach you.

Nowhere in the scenario does it state the neighbors were aggressive, or belligerent or if their approach was passive.

I would think most sane people would have a reasonable discussion about the matter and get the facts.

As a bee keeper and someone who removes and relocates bees for a living, I can tell you that IMO it is virtually impossible for as many people who tell me they are highly allergic to bee stings to be the case.

Any reaction to a bee sting causes some type of response. When someone tells me they are highly allergic I always ask them what their symptoms are and if they have a prescription for an Epi pen (which btw is  for two pens).

If after the discussion in our hypothetical, the neighbor is still very concerned but professes she and the two kids are apparently not allergic to the point of anaphylactic shock and feel comfortable enough with me keeping bees next door at least for the time being then, there you go.

You might end the conversation that if at some point they feel uncomfortable again about the bees to please call or knock on your door and we can then take appropriate measures.

If they realize you are a decent person and are concerned about their well being and have been properly educated about bees they may likely leave you alone but I bet in my scenario you will become great neighbors.

If for some reason they come forth again and politely inform you the bees are constantly in their hot tub (as they can see them coming right over your ten foot tall fence to their tub) and (even though they have developed a new appreciation for bees) are just not that into sharing their hot tub with the bees, then of course, the proper thing to do would be to tell them either you will immediately work on a solution or move the bees.

If its not approached like this, they likely will call the police, who will send out animal control, the mayor gets sent a letter, you get a bright orange notice on your door and everyone thinks you are an a-hole, bee keeper and may then stereotype all bee keepers as a-holes.

And let's not forget, you still will have to move your bees.

New bee yards are not impossible to find.


...JP
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 21, 2013, 11:01:30 am
And what about all the other neighbors that are appreciative and want you to have your bees pollinate there gardens, and be able to buy local honey from there gardens?

So if I move out to the country next to some one that has horses or other livestock that I´m allergic to I should bee able to dictate the terms of what they are aloud to do on there property?

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Robo on January 21, 2013, 11:03:28 am
I'd like to know what kind of person everyone thinks would even consider moving their family so close to danger, knowing their severe allergic conditions?


Amen!   I would think a responsible parent would move to a place that is safe for their children.  But then again personal responsibility is a thing of the past.  Now it is always someone else's fault.

Perhaps I'm a little bit harsh on this, but I have experienced too many similar issues.     I live in a very rural area of NY in the Catskill Mountains.   We have been inundated with NY city folks since 9/11.   They come up and buy a weekend house in the country because they want to get away from the big city and guess what?   The want to change it.   They want to say I can't cut down trees on my property,  I can't move rock walls, etc, and they have even had outdoor wood furnaces banned in some areas.  

With that said,  not all are like that,  I have met some very nice folks that appreciate our way of living and respect it.  Unfortunately there are enough bad ones to make then all get a bad rap.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 21, 2013, 11:04:33 am
My kids are allergic to being run over by red cars, should I bee able to forbid people from driving red cars on my street?

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Joe D on January 21, 2013, 11:25:30 am
If I lived it town and the situation came up like this, I would move the bees.  But I think they should have checked out the neighborhood before buying there.  I feel for you Robo.  MY closest neighbor is 1/4 mile, back a few years ago it was a mile.  At least they can't get any closer. And all my neighbors all have from 40 to a few hundred acres and no one bothers any of the others with BS.  Good luck to you all.




Joe
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 21, 2013, 03:09:52 pm
...given that about 350 children die every year drowning in backyard swimming pools, you should be able to have your neighbor move their inground pool if you have kids.

Trampolines are more of a concern than bees for a homeowners insurance company....you would think they would have a good grasp on probability of  injury.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: AllenF on January 21, 2013, 05:18:30 pm
A third of all homeowners insurance claims involve dogs.  Wouldn't the world be better without dogs?   Maybe a law to outlaw puppies should be added to the gun laws. 
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: rjmeyer on January 21, 2013, 06:54:28 pm
Many people have a genunine fear of dogs, all dogs can bite and /or be aggressive for a whole host of reasons.Many larger dogs could crush a childs head with one bite...So if you owned 3 Very Large Rottweilers and a family moved in next door with young childern that feared being bitten would you relocate them..especially if you knew they were gentle by nature just because they fear being bitten one day?? Of course common sense is paramount here..be courtious, educate them to bees and practice good neighbor policies in beekeeping, but unless it was against the law to keep them...sorry i wouldnt move mine. 
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Michael Bush on January 22, 2013, 05:08:49 pm
>the argument assumes that having bees next door increases the probability of being stung by an insect.

I think that is the fundamental flaw in the thinking.

>i'd probably want to see some verification of the allergy.  if i had a buck for every phone caller that said "i have bees in my yard, and i'm allergic!!"  i'd be wealthy.

Me too.  Everyone thinks they are allergic...
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 22, 2013, 05:15:01 pm
I'm not sure it is believable to claim that living next door to a bee hive doesn't increase your chances of getting stung.  All other things being equal (the hive not being there), I think it does increase your chances of getting stung, of having a colony move into your home, or having a swimming pool (even a kiddie pool) become the water source.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: derekm on January 23, 2013, 08:08:16 am
I'm not sure it is believable to claim that living next door to a bee hive doesn't increase your chances of getting stung.  All other things being equal (the hive not being there), I think it does increase your chances of getting stung, of having a colony move into your home, or having a swimming pool (even a kiddie pool) become the water source.

deknow
you need to consider the density of stinging insect in the area  below 2m off the ground.
once the bees have gained height to clear nearby obstacles they need to have a reason to forage for nectar, pollen or water, to fly below that. Bee forage over a large range. All of the bee colonies in 3 mile radius may visit a garden.
 I have 4 colonies of honeybees in my garden. Most of the bees visiting the garden are bumble bees, not honeybees. If I want a reliable encounter with my bees more that 6m from the hives I go on to the roof  of my house.
The neighbours hot tub or heated swimming pool  problem is easily solved by having one yourself nearer to colonies (bees like warm water)
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Michael Bush on January 23, 2013, 12:10:24 pm
>I'm not sure it is believable to claim that living next door to a bee hive doesn't increase your chances of getting stung.

I got stung fairly regularly when I was growing up.  There were no hives in my yard nor next door.  Running around barefoot had it's risks.  Bees are pretty evenly distributed over the entire planet.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Robo on January 23, 2013, 12:28:17 pm
The other thing that is being overlooked is that not all "bees" (bees/wasp/hornets) are created equally.   It is my understanding that a majority of anaphylactic reactions are results of "non-honeybee" stings.

Of course, regardless of the "bee" it would be assumed it is yours.    I had a swarm trap in a friend of mine's yard this past year.  It caught a swarm around June and I swapped the trap out within 2 weeks.  He actually had a neighbor come harass him in September about his "bees" eating and damaging her berries.   She was not convinced, even after he explained the difference between honeybees and yellow jackets and showed her the trap was empty.

Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 23, 2013, 02:25:28 pm
>I'm not sure it is believable to claim that living next door to a bee hive doesn't increase your chances of getting stung.

I got stung fairly regularly when I was growing up.  There were no hives in my yard nor next door.  Running around barefoot had it's risks.  Bees are pretty evenly distributed over the entire planet.
Cmon Michael....I know you know a logical fallacy when you see it (or state it).

The "hive next door" is inspected at some point...bees flying.
The "hive next door" is more likely to swarm than a possible feral hive the same distance from the neighbors house.
The "hive next door" might well be flying around my porch light at night.
The "hive next door" might have honey removed after the flow...again, bees flying, and in a less good mood.
The "hive next door" has 30,000+ individual bees with stingers inside.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Moots on January 23, 2013, 03:39:55 pm

Cmon Michael....I know you know a logical fallacy when you see it (or state it).

The "hive next door" is inspected at some point...bees flying.
The "hive next door" is more likely to swarm than a possible feral hive the same distance from the neighbors house.
The "hive next door" might well be flying around my porch light at night.
The "hive next door" might have honey removed after the flow...again, bees flying, and in a less good mood.
The "hive next door" has 30,000+ individual bees with stingers inside.

deknow

deknow,
All valid points....but as I often say, life is full of calculated risk!

I think the point some have made questioning the severity of the allergy is valid, I mean, isn't everyone allergic to bees to a certain degree, hence the swelling and itching.  Is it TRULY a life and death issue for this child or do we have overbearing parents making a mountain out of a molehill?

Another point, which I'm not sure if it's been made or not...But where is the due diligence and responsibility of the family buying the house to educate themselves concerning the surroundings of their potential new neighborhood before purchasing the house?  I'd possibly have more sympathy for their situation if they were living there already and a neighbor decided to start keeping bees.  

They made what appears to be a poor decision for their family and now want to make it someone else's problem and have them pay the price of inconvenience.  If the allergy is truly that severe, shouldn't this have been on their short list of requirements for home shopping?

Strikes me as a slippery slope when you want to start trying to tell people which "legal" activities they can do on their own property.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 23, 2013, 04:08:55 pm
I think the idea that someone buying a home can reasonably discover if there is a bee hive in the neighborhood as part of the purchase process is absurd.  Really?  No beekeepers in residential areas have the hives somewhat hidden?  ...isn't that what is often advised...don't make the hives visible?  How can one reasonably expect to discover something on a neighboring property that could well be hidden on purpose?

Certainly not everyone is accurate when they say tell you they are allergic....this is something that everyone with an allergy faces...people don't believe they are really allergic, or don't believe the allergy is really as dangerous as it is made out to be.  With that said, inquiring about this kind of thing has to be handled tactfully and respectfully.  The person that really is allergic (rightfully) won't take kindly to having their credibility/word questioned.  The person that really is allergic would be right to be angry if you dismiss their claim because of the inaccurate claims of others.  After all, we all take offense when we are told by others that our (legitimate) mountain is only considered to be a molehill by others.

But my main point is, if beekeepers claim that, all other things being equal,  living next door to a hive of bees doesn't increase the chance of getting stung, they will have zero credibility in whatever else they claim.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Moots on January 23, 2013, 06:20:42 pm
I think the idea that someone buying a home can reasonably discover if there is a bee hive in the neighborhood as part of the purchase process is absurd.  Really?  No beekeepers in residential areas have the hives somewhat hidden?  ...isn't that what is often advised...don't make the hives visible?  How can one reasonably expect to discover something on a neighboring property that could well be hidden on purpose?

Certainly not everyone is accurate when they say tell you they are allergic....this is something that everyone with an allergy faces...people don't believe they are really allergic, or don't believe the allergy is really as dangerous as it is made out to be.  With that said, inquiring about this kind of thing has to be handled tactfully and respectfully.  The person that really is allergic (rightfully) won't take kindly to having their credibility/word questioned.  The person that really is allergic would be right to be angry if you dismiss their claim because of the inaccurate claims of others.  After all, we all take offense when we are told by others that our (legitimate) mountain is only considered to be a molehill by others.

But my main point is, if beekeepers claim that, all other things being equal,  living next door to a hive of bees doesn't increase the chance of getting stung, they will have zero credibility in whatever else they claim.

deknow

deknow,
I wasn't suggesting the couple become Peeping Tom's, or hire a Private Investigator to case the neighbors house.  Maybe something as novel as taking 5 minutes to walk next door, knock on the door and introduce yourself, tell them you're thinking about buying the house next door and make some general inquiries.  While this may be a little beyond the "norm", I'm not sure I would categorize it as "absurd"...And if the allergy is truly as serious as we're being lead to believe, it probably isn't a bad idea.  It could of avoided the situation they are now in.

Technically, your point about there being an increased chance of being stung with a hive next door is probably true.  One could argue that "technically", having a hive within 2 or 3 miles, possibly even further "technically" increases the chance of being stung.  So, where do you draw the line?  Like a said earlier, it's a slippery slope.

In my opinion, the question isn't if mathematically there's an increased chance, but more if the increased chance puts the child at some type of  unreasonable risk.  Let's face it ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN, life doesn't come with guarantee's for any of us.

Maybe instead of asking a neighbor to get rid of the bees a little coordination could make the situation manageable for all parties involved.  Ask for a courtesy call when he will be working the bees and make sure your child is inside for that time.  What are we talking about, 30 minutes to an hour every week or two?  Make sure to always have an EpiPen nearby, don't plant things that will encourage the bees to visit your yard, etc. etc. etc.

I just have to believe there's a better answer than, "Hey, I moved in next door, my kid is allergic, you should MOVE YOUR BEES and if you don't you're a bad person!"
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 23, 2013, 06:45:40 pm
I just have to believe there's a better answer than, "Hey, I moved in next door, my kid is allergic, you should MOVE YOUR BEES and if you don't you're a bad person!"
...I do too.  But I also believe that once you try to tell someone that living next door to a bee hive doesn't have _some_ added risk attached to it, you probably aren't going to appear credible no matter what you say after that.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: lazy shooter on January 23, 2013, 10:06:49 pm
I think that once someone tells you they think your bees pose a threat to them that the die is cast and nothing you can say or do will change their minds.  I believe this is true in almost all cases.  There may be some rare individual out there that you sway their opinion, but mostly when people complain they never back away from their position.

My wife had been a school superintendent for a hundred years, and when the parents complain that the teacher is a bad one she just moves their kiddo along.  People just don't change their minds once they take a stand.  It's sad but true.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: derekm on January 24, 2013, 07:30:02 am
Apart from when you manipulate the bees as a beekeeper ... how many times have you been stung by any stripy(wasps bees etc..) stinging insect in your entire life.? does that number exceed the number of auto accidents/incidents you have been involved in??

I've been stung once when I accidentally destroyed a wasp nest. the number of auto accident in my entire life is "classified" but its a much much bigger number than one.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Michael Bush on January 24, 2013, 09:23:23 am
Falling off of a wall when the moon causing a high tide decreases your chances of getting hurt compared to falling off the same wall when the moon is causing a low tide.  But not enough to matter...
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 24, 2013, 09:47:42 am
1.  We no nothing about the beekeepers experience, skill level, or general ability to get along with others.

2.  In Boston, we've had people come in from neighboring states, setup warre hives in the city as a business...the cheap price being due to the fact that they won't have to come into town and check the bees often...after all, they are in a warre hive.  When this issue (and my comments about swarming) made it back to the warre list, almost universally, the members there objected to any objection to bees swarming in the city.  In short, not all beekeepers are knowledgeable, not all are smart, not all are responsible.

3.  If a beekeeper is quoted in the paper, or makes a statement to a judge or mediator along the lines of, "yes, I have bees on my property, but that doesn't impact the neighbors chances of getting stung", they will lose all credibility.

4.  Last spring we got some packages that were "lousy with virgins"...whole installed packages swarmed off the first day.  Some of our neighbors have swimming pools (and I know the bees visit them).

5.  Although I'm not aware of any of our neighbors getting stung, we have had people stung during inspections who were further from the hive being opened than the property line.

6.  I think everyone should use whatever protection they feel comfortable with...but I've been in lots of beeyards with Michael Bush, and if he's in a bee yard where hives are being opened, he is the first to put on a veil.  This isn't a criticism, but an observation that even he knows that once hives are opened the chance of stinging goes way up...we have a big (multifamily) house on a not so big lot...we have hives within a couple of feet of the property lines.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: D Semple on January 24, 2013, 10:36:18 am
I agree with Dean's & JP's position. I had new neighbors move in with 3 small children and even though they didn't ask me too and we are on acre lots in a semi-rural area, I moved all but a few hives off my place.

Bees have their bad days.


Don
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Moots on January 24, 2013, 10:37:15 am
1.  We no nothing about the beekeepers experience, skill level, or general ability to get along with others.

Much like we know nothing about the family that moved in next door....Their ability to listen to reason or get along with others.

2.  In Boston, we've had people come in from neighboring states, setup warre hives in the city as a business...the cheap price being due to the fact that they won't have to come into town and check the bees often...after all, they are in a warre hive.  When this issue (and my comments about swarming) made it back to the warre list, almost universally, the members there objected to any objection to bees swarming in the city.  In short, not all beekeepers are knowledgeable, not all are smart, not all are responsible.

I'll stipulate to the fact that not all beekeepers are knowledgeable, smart and responsible.
Much like not all parents, not all drivers, not all neighbors, not all dog owners, not all gun owners, not all "fill in the blank with your choice"....are knowledgeable, smart and responsible.  Such is life!

3.  If a beekeeper is quoted in the paper, or makes a statement to a judge or mediator along the lines of, "yes, I have bees on my property, but that doesn't impact the neighbors chances of getting stung", they will lose all credibility.

Maybe so....But I would think he could attempt to educate people and say something along the lines of...While it may significantly increase the chances of seeing a bee in the area, it doesn't necessarily "significantly" impact the chances of getting stung.

Personally, I believe this to be a true statement, if people choose not to believe it, I'm not sure that's the beekeepers fault.

4.  Last spring we got some packages that were "lousy with virgins"...whole installed packages swarmed off the first day.  Some of our neighbors have swimming pools (and I know the bees visit them).

Your bees as well as others I'm sure...I have two neighbors with pools and have seen plenty of bees at both in the past with no knowledge of there being any hives anywhere in the area and certain knowledge of none being close by.  Worth noting, I never saw or heard of anyone getting stung by any of these bees.

5.  Although I'm not aware of any of our neighbors getting stung, we have had people stung during inspections who were further from the hive being opened than the property line.

6.  I think everyone should use whatever protection they feel comfortable with...but I've been in lots of beeyards with Michael Bush, and if he's in a bee yard where hives are being opened, he is the first to put on a veil.  This isn't a criticism, but an observation that even he knows that once hives are opened the chance of stinging goes way up...we have a big (multifamily) house on a not so big lot...we have hives within a couple of feet of the property lines.

In point 5 you say people have been stung during an inspection while being further away then the property line, in point 6 you say you have hives within "feet" of the property line.  So I'm not sure that happening should really surprise anyone.  I think we can all agree to stipulate that bees do not recognize and honor "property lines".

deknow

My 2¢ in Maroon
Jeff
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Moots on January 24, 2013, 10:45:05 am
I agree with Dean's & JP's position. I had new neighbors move in with 3 small children and even though they didn't ask me too and we are on acre lots in a semi-rural area, I moved all but a few hives off my place.

Bees have their bad days.


Don

Don,
I'm very new to this and have plenty to learn...So, not trying to sound like a Smart-"fill in the blank"....But an honest question:

If you feel that way and think it can be a true problem, why not move all the hives?
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: D Semple on January 24, 2013, 02:31:26 pm
Don,
I'm very new to this and have plenty to learn...So, not trying to sound like a Smart-"fill in the blank"....But an honest question:

If you feel that way and think it can be a true problem, why not move all the hives?

Fair question, I probably should but haven't yet because:

1st - We are big gardeners and that's why we got into bees to start with.
2nd - To minimize the risk and for convenience all I keep at home are a few colonies recovering from recent cutouts or nucs that I want to watch closely. Once they get up and start growing and get stronger I move them out. It's the big strong hives that get defensive, especially in crowded bee yards during a dearth.
3rd - We have an acre and half lot, and all my neighbors including the new neighbors with small children like the bees for their gardens and the honey we supply them. If I had a neighbor that objected stongly I would move them.
4th - Following JP's advice I've moved them 120' from the adjoining property line.


Don

Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Michael Bush on January 24, 2013, 02:43:34 pm
Bees, like dogs and other animals, vary greatly in temperament.  Ethical beekeepers should certainly keep that in mind and do their best to insure that they requeen any that are not gentle, and if they are aggressive, move them until they have been requeened and returned to gentle.  The same as when a dog gets aggressive.  I think if you have bees in town, you should already have a contingency plan as what to do if they are acting up.  If a hive gets vicious you don't want to spend a week finding a new place for them.  Have it lined up ahead of time.

Yes, I always wear a veil and I always recommend one when opening a hive.  Those of you who don't use one, will someday be educated by the bees.  It may take years, or weeks, but they will get around to it... ;)
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 24, 2013, 02:59:59 pm
For the record, please note that I'm not saying that one should necessarily move (or not move) the hives.  At our previous address, when we first got bees, the first thing that happened was a neighbor complaining to the health dept.  We did not have to move the bees, the neighbor complained about everything, so it wasn't a real issue.

I just think it's important that if you are going to start a dialog, that you not start it with any version of "you won't get stung".  We are talking about bees...there is always a possibility of getting stung, and that possibility goes up when you are near a hive that is being opened.  When someone is stung (even if you are not sure it was a bee, or even your bee), you will be the one saying, "oh, my dog doesn't bite...really he doesn't" after someone is bit....you simply will never win that one.

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 24, 2013, 07:28:09 pm
Some interesting new points,

I myself always wear a full beesuit, don't like being stung and cant bee bother to light the smoker.

Also I have kind workable bees, of the kindest I have a few at home, I have been frowend upon buy some of my neigbords the years I didn't have any hives at home  :-D
Also I have a few beeyard that I can place problem hives.

2014-2015 I am going to get 30 new neighbors 15 meters from my property line  :-x I will not bee moving my hives at all !
You guy might have your second amendment  :jerry: but there is no way I going to give up my hives  :hissyfit: They can get stuffed :whip:

That being said I try to keep my hives responsibly and wont bee opening them when the neighbors are having a barbecue party in there garden, also I give the neighbors I can see from my house a jar of honey for Christmas.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 24, 2013, 08:15:29 pm
I myself always wear a full beesuit, don't like being stung and cant bee bother to light the smoker.
....well, I'm sure that decreases the chances of your neighbors getting stung :-P

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 24, 2013, 08:19:49 pm
I myself always wear a full beesuit, don't like being stung and cant bee bother to light the smoker.
....well, I'm sure that decreases the chances of your neighbors getting stung

I think you mised the part I wrote " Also I have kind workable bees, of the kindest I have a few at home "

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: ScooterTrash on January 24, 2013, 08:47:25 pm
Assume the risk new neighbor & keep the Epipen Rx up to date as they do become less effective over time. I rode a bicycle without a helmet, rode in the back of pick trucks, caught fireflies at night, served my country for many years & frankly not giving up any more rights; they’ll will have to be torn from me. Not one bit of PC here
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: deknow on January 24, 2013, 09:17:23 pm
I think you mised the part I wrote " Also I have kind workable bees, of the kindest I have a few at home "
mvh edward  :-P
...I saw that...what I read was "so workable that I always wear a full bee suit".
I always figure that a little smoke keeps the bees calm for me and for others in the area....no smoke and a full bee suit seems like a recipe for angry off bees (and a beekeeper who isn't motivated to keep the bees as calm as possible...because he is wearing a full bee suit).

I can just imagine....you are inspecting a hive, wearing the full suit...the bees get a bit testy....you keep working the bees until you hear a scream from next door, "I've been stung!  Help!  I'm allergic".  So you run over (still in your full bee suit) and tell the panicking neighbor, family, paramedics (if there is a real allergy issue), "nope, it wasn't one of my bees that stung her...excuse me, I have to go close up my hive." :)

Edward, please take the above in good humor...I'm not accusing you of anything, I don't know the details of where you live,  I just think there are generally better ways to deal with neighbors....and I'm having a little fun :)

deknow
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: DLMKA on January 24, 2013, 10:00:22 pm
I'd like to know what kind of person everyone thinks would even consider moving their family so close to danger, knowing their severe allergic conditions?


Amen!   I would think a responsible parent would move to a place that is safe for their children.  But then again personal responsibility is a thing of the past.  Now it is always someone else's fault.



When I got into beekeeping last spring our neighbor threw a $hit fit and went out and got her kids epipens claiming a severe allergy and went to far as to make a big stink at the school about it too.  Even despite this "severe allergy" she allowed both kids to walk barefoot in the grass including in our yard which got sown in white dutch clover and was a fantastic bee magnet.  I asked her on many occasions why she let the girls walk barefoot where there was a high risk of stepping on a bee and she replied that she couldn't control her kids and whether they wore shoes or not.  I found it completely irresponsible that she would allow that if there was a risk of death from bee stings.  It'd be like giving a kid with a peanut allergy a peanut butter sandwich.  Honestly, at that point I knew she was lying to me about the bee allergy but I can't really argue with a prescription for an epi pen. Instead, I found a bee yard about a mile away and overseeded my entire yard in white dutch clover and planted bee friendly plants everywhere I could.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: DLMKA on January 24, 2013, 10:18:35 pm
I will make a note that I have enclosed a stud section of my shed and made a nice bee entrance with the hope of enticing a swarm to set up shop in my shed walls.  I may not be able to "keep" bees in a hive in my yard but if a feral colony sets up shop in the walls of my shed there is nothing they can do.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 25, 2013, 03:39:05 am
Even despite this "severe allergy" she allowed both kids to walk barefoot in the grass including in our yard which got sown in white dutch clover and was a fantastic bee magnet.  I asked her on many occasions why she let the girls walk barefoot where there was a high risk of stepping on a bee and she replied that she couldn't control her kids and whether they wore shoes or not.

 :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:

Why the  :evil: should I have to raise my kids, let some one else do it, its not my problem  :roll:

Well what can you say about this?  DARWINISUM

Some people shouldn't breed and pollute the gene pool, not much of a loss for humanity if 1 or 2 are taken before there time  :-D

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: edward on January 25, 2013, 04:39:15 am
"so workable that I always wear a full bee suit".I always figure that a little smoke keeps the bees calm for me and for others in the area....no smoke and a full bee suit seems like a recipe for angry off bees (and a beekeeper who isn't motivated to keep the bees as calm as possible...because he is wearing a full bee suit).I'm having a little fun :)deknow

 :-D Yes Ive noticed that you like a good argument :-D

At present time I'm running about 70 hives and hopefully will have 100+ at the end of this season.

Last year I thing they got me good about seven times most of them were not my hives or my bees, they were when I helped my mentor with his bees, His bees are OK but I wouldn't have them in my bee yards!

My bees must bee calm bees , There are nice good fun bees so why settle for angry ones?? WHY ?

I don't want angry bees, I want bees that you can approach the hive with out suiting up, at least for 15 minutes you should be able to spend time in a bee yard with out being challenged buy a guard bee.
With my bees you/I can walk stand sit 1 meter behind and 3 meters in front of the hive without protective gear.

I don't work my hives in bad weather, this I have learnt the hard way  :'( , I Don't want to develop allergies to bee stings, beekeeping brings me great pleasure and I don't want to risk having to give it up because of to many stings and an allergic reaction.

Last year was the first year that i didn't have a mild reaction from bee stings, so I guess and hope that I am acclimatized, but also one sting closer to being allergic, it only takes 1 sting or 1001 stings you never know.
When I work my hives its work, why would I not I use the right tools and safety measures and equipment, I am not self-confidence and trying to compensate some short coming by pretending to bee tough and not using the right gear.

One of my goals as a beekeeper/and representative from the local beekeeping club is to pollinate the entire town and gardens and provide everyone with local honey from there area, not from some god forsaken part of china!  :angel:

:bee: To do this I need good kind bees.  :bee:  Why settle for second best!

mvh edward  :-P


Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Nature Coast Beek on January 25, 2013, 08:26:25 am
Trust, but verify...then act accordingly.

Ownership of property (all kinds) has its responsibilities. Oh, BTW, GOOD FENCES MAKE GOOD NEIGHBORS. I keep B's in a greenbelted hood full of busy bodies. I didn't announce that I am a beekeeper either (Yes, I am within legal rights to keep B's here, even though it is a deed restricted hood). Also, there have been a lot of hives being stolen throughout the country (guess those almonds make people RICH!  :roll: ) so I wouldn't/don't announce any of my beekeeping activities at large. Out of sight, out of mind. It's amazing what people can accomplish when others don't know it's happening...all "ethically", of coursed...  :angel:

disclaimer
MY .02
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: lazy shooter on January 25, 2013, 10:19:35 am
I have to agree with Nature Coast on one point.  Don't talk about your bees with neighbors.  Just keep on keeping on, as the lawyers say.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: D Semple on January 25, 2013, 10:33:52 am
I have to agree with Nature Coast on one point.  Don't talk about your bees with neighbors.  Just keep on keeping on, as the lawyers say.

Maybe we are just more neighborly here in Kansas, but I follow just the oppisite advice.

I approached all my adjoining neighbors before ever moving bees in and got their support up front.

Same with my bee yards, I make a point to meet everybody within a half mile before bees are moved in.

Lots of benifits being up front.


Don
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: Nature Coast Beek on January 25, 2013, 11:03:12 am
Yes, yes, of course, all us "heathen"s outside the Midwest...

If I'm within my legal rights to keep B's, why would I okay that through neighbor? I didn't do that with my dog (which on occasion barks and "disturbs" neighbors). If a person was "allergic", just like my post, I'd trust them and then ask for a doctor's note stating that the person was severely allergic to HONEY BEE venom, then act accordingly.

I also think that good judgement should be exercised. In close quarters (backyard) limiting hives is sensible. In no world am I going to open myself up to a neighbor's yay or nay in regards to engaging in any legal activity. Note, that's much different than working with your neighbors if there's a problem.



Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: lazy shooter on January 25, 2013, 11:47:14 am
I think some of you missed my point.  My point is my business is my business.  I am not deceiving my neighbors by not telling them about my bees, or how much money I make, or what I invest in or ...................

If my neighbors see my bees (they won't see  mine without trespassing) and ask about them, I will be more than willing to answer all questions.  I have a couple of extra bee jackets and would give my neighbors a tour of my two apiaries. 

I just don't walk up to others and say, I'm a petroleum engineer, oil is very high and I make a lot of money, I have a ranch and there are cattle and bees on it.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: ScooterTrash on January 25, 2013, 01:02:16 pm
My neighbors have a pool and obviuosly the bees sometimes venture over to the pool, bought my neighbors a couple bug zapper tennis rackets; issue mitigated that was my version and extent of PC.
Title: Re: New York Times' Ethicist on beekeeping vs allergic neighbors
Post by: derekm on January 25, 2013, 06:02:46 pm
One of my swarms introduced me  to one of my neighbours. They thought bees  and  swarms were faciinating and gave me a call when then the swarm had settled.