Help with Newbee late season cut out needed...

[Intheswamp]

BLUF:  Newbee looking at a late season cut out in an out-building located in south Alabama (lady wants them "gone")...would like your recommendations and suggestions regarding: equipment and technique, after-the-cut-out feeding, your thoughts on colony survival, etc,.
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Well, my newbee education continues.  :)  My mentor got a call about "bees in the ceiling" the other day and asked me if I wanted to get them.  I have no bees at the house currently and limited in my "hands on" experience with bees. (I've got two hives at my mentor's that I'll be moving here at the end of February).

We're going over tomorrow afternoon to look at the situation.  These bees are supposedly in a "foam" ceiling which I figure is some sort of a suspended ceiling.  They are in an out-building at a ~90 year old lady's house who wants them gone.

My mentor said that he would do the ground work and I'll do the ladder work.  In talking with him he's not gungho about saving comb...he's had bad experiences in the past with shb and wax moth invading cut out comb.  I understand is reservations, but I'm thinking this late in the season the bees definitely need the comb, brood, and some stores and it appears the shb are retreating for the season.  Thoughts???

I'm thinking that in regards to equipment I'll need:

*Protective clothing
*Ladder
*Smoker & fuel
*Flashlight
*Three medium supers (I will be using all 8-frame medium boxes)
*Top and inner covers, bottom board.
*Frames with rubber bands stretched over each end...how many per end?....three?
  Should the frames be horizontally wired or not? 
  Should I also have some frames with foundation installed?  I have no drawn comb to use.
*Queen catcher
*Knife...serrated or smooth-bladed?....longer the better?
*#8 hardware cloth for sealing entrance to supers.
*Stapler
*Duct tape
*2 ratchet straps
*Camera

...any recommendations on other things I need or changes I need to make are appreciated.

We are about 50 miles south of Montgomery, Alabama and being as it's the middle of October...what are the chances of this cut out surviving by only saving bees (no comb) and placing them on un-drawn foundation?  Conversely, what are their chances of surviving by saving all brood comb and some honey/pollen comb?

If I save the comb I take it that it needs to somewhat be arranged in the hive boxes as it was hanging in the "cavity"....basically try to replicate the brood area as best as I can?

Currently we have a lot of goldenrod, tarweed, false foxglove, and a few other minor plants blooming.  I would say that the goldenrod has hit it's peak but is still strong.  Temperatures are to the low 80's for highs and will be moving on down into the mid to upper 70's before long for highs.

I intend to give them all the syrup that they'll take and I have a small bag of Mega-bee if it will help.  1:1 syrup is what I understand promotes comb building (in this case it would be comb repair to get them to attach their old comb to the frames).  But, 2:1 syrup would be what they'd be needing to put up for food stores, right?  Which would be better in this instance or will it matter greatly?  With our climate I feel that there will be opportunities to feed during the winter, but definitely will be times when it won't be feasible so they will certainly need their own stores in the comb.

I'll try to get some pictures of the situation when we do our inspection tomorrow.

I probably wrote to much information and it's rambling, so thanks for sticking with it to this point!  Any guidance and suggestions are welcomed!

Thanks again!
Ed

[Kathyp]

 

about the comb....just save the brood comb.  you can extract and feed the honey back to them, or just leave the comb out AWAY from the hive for them to rob. 

there is a sticky at the top of this section with lists and ideas for about everything you could ever need.  run through that.

i usually end up using 4 rubber bands per frame, but if it's a good hunk of comb 3 will work.  put 4 on and then if you don't need them....:-)

wouldn't worry about the foundation.  if you save enough brood comb they work out the rest.

knife...short and long.  to me, the blade type doesn't matter as long as it's sharp.  i'd also take a hive tool and one or two flat scrapers. 

tarp or two.

several buckets.  you'll need them for junk comb, sticky tools, and some water where you are working is always nice.  i also throw in baby wipes.  they help  ;-)

seems like something else is missing on that list...maybe you'll find it when you look at the other lists.  i'll think on it.

[iddee]

As for the comb, as kathy says, save only the brood comb.

Then reduce the hive down when finished to the point there are bees covering all comb, and hopefully, all frames, whether comb or foundation. As much as possible, anyway.

[Intheswamp]

Thanks kathyp and iddee for the feedback.  We checked out the colony yesterday.  At the moment it is inaccessible so we won't be getting bees anytime soon, but we did have a surprise ending. ;)  It wasn't a great day for it...mostly overcast, mid-70's, a slight drizzle earlier in the day.  There was *lots* of foragers coming in with pollen and I presume some nectar.  I got in the beeline a couple of times and was politely escorted out of the way by a couple of ladies....one leaving a stinger in my shirt sleeve...I'll start wearing a cap around bees now being as they seemed to like my curly hair.  I feel that the bees had a slightly irritated attitude...maybe the weather?...<groan>

We entered the barn/building and found *many* bees dead in front of the single window, with bees bouncing against it trying to get out.  Lots of bee poop on the window...nosema?  There were several bees flying around inside and around the florescent shop light.

Here is a shot of the back of the building.  There is a long narrow "lean-to" shed built onto the back of the building.  On the left side of the shed is an open shelter that houses an old, small refrigeration compressor...it is behind all the vines and sits on a shelf.  There is a large 8x10(?) foot meat cooler on the inside of the building.  There is a hole punched into the heavy metal siding where the refrigerant and electrical lines enter the building...this is where the bees are going in.  The metal siding is *heavy* gauge, it extends probably four to five feet behind the enclosed portion of the lean-to shed.  To remove the siding the entire lean-to would basically have to be removed or either cut the metal siding.  We may possibly wait until winter and remove the lean-to (if we get ambitious) and remove nails in siding, replacing them with screws.  That way this spring we can attempt the removal without a lot of demo-work to do around the bees.  Here's a shot of the barn...the area behind the vines about halfway between the "shelf" and the lean-to roof is the colony entrance...


A closer in shot...


I don't know if the dead bees were sprayed or simply died at the window.  The owner is 92 years old and not in great health but still active.  We didn't see any pesticide spray cans laying around anywhere.  Here's what we saw inside at the window...



After crawling over and around lots of "stuff" I made in to the back of the room and found the bees entering the barn through a crack between the top of the framed/paneled in cooler and the interior paneled wall.  There was lots of junk on top of the cooler which I moved to the side to get to two boxes that were sitting against the wall with wax, propolis and bees peaking out from around the edges.  Hmm, newbee that I am I'm wondering what's gonna happen when I pull those boxes away from the wall.  BTW, they were glued to the wall stuck pretty good to the floor.  That's when I hollered for my veil (see, I ain't no (real big) dummy!...just a small one!  :-D )  Here's the boxes sitting against the wall...


Well, I got my veil on and started tugging on the boxes.  That bee glue is good stuff!!!  I got the box on the left moved pretty easy but that one was at the edge of the main entrance.  The second one took a lot more tugging and twisting.  I finally managed to get the box loose and out of the way and this is what was behind it...


continued.....

[Intheswamp]

Continued from my previous post....

Well, after the last photo I got a bit busy and really didn't take anymore pictures up top.  One thing I did observe even in the small area I was in was about a half dozen hive beetles...but these were basically on the outside of the hive proper so maybe these bees are dealing with them and keeping them at bay.

We knew we couldn't get the bees out (at least not any time soon) but the little lady wanted them gone.  My mentor came up with the idea of stuffing shopping bags into the crack to hinder the bees entering the interior of the barn.  Now, I'm a newbee sitting there looking at a couple hundred (?) bees and I'm supposed to stick bags in the area they're all sitting???!!!  Besides, I'm eight feet in the air, semi-cramped conditions, junk pile almost 8' high, no valid path to quickly exit the scene.  Anyhow, my mentor scrounged up a bunch of plastic shopping backs and I began stuffing them down into the crack using a wedge off of a frame.  What I did (with my mentor cheering me on from the front of the barn  :lol: ) was roll the bags and stuff them in the crack using the wedge.  After about 1/2 dozen stings to the hands I decided I needed some gloves...the ladies were not happy with those plastic bags being pushed into their space.  I was moving slowly, but still, they didn't like it.  I holler for some gloves and duct tape, figuring we didn't have any bee gloves (we'd only come to eyeball the situation).  If anybody was at the Alabama Bee Keepers Assc meeting last weekend and you recall a little bitty senior lady winning the Deluxe Hive kit from Kelley's as a door prize...well, she had left a pair of her goatskin gloves in my mentor's truck earlier...they were tight, but they sure made a different in my comfort level!!!!  :shock:  I'll be looking for some of those goatskin gloves.

Sorry, but I didn't get a shot of my crack filling work, but I told them to call if they keep having a problem and we'll bring some more permanent stuff to seal the crack with.  When we got through we turned the shop light out and most of the bee's exited out the double doors that were opened wide...they went to the light.  Here's a shot some bees on the overhead shop light before we turned it off...


Now, here is the surprise ending that I mentioned, you remember I mentioned that I used a frame wedge to stuff the bags into the crack?  Where it come from???...  

When we first got there we were looking inside the barn trying to figure out where they were entering at.  The lady's son pointed upward into the barn and said "there's some bee hives".  Me and my mentor just figured he was talking about all the bees on the light,ect.,.  But he pointed again and said, "no, there's some bee hives".  We both looked up on top of some tall shelves and lo' and behold....there were two complete (never used) 10-frame deep...bottom board, body, frames, inner and outer covers.  We got to looking around and found several more inner covers, several queen excluders, and probably 50-60 frames.  Most of this stuff was new, some of the old cardboard boxes were "Sears" boxes.  Come to find out the lady's husband had kept bee's for a while.  It was offered to us, we tried to pay but they wouldn't take it, my mentor did have some honey with him so he gave them some of that.  Unfortunately this was all 10-frame equipment and (except for the original boxes that my two colonies will be in when I move them home) I am going exclusively all 8-frame mediums.  I think there's still some equipment in the barn but I'll have to wait another day to look a little more...there were several more frames, inner and outer covers, and queen excluders than there were hive bodies...I'm also curious about how he extracted his honey.  :)  Here's a shot of what we loaded in the back of the pickup truck, most all of this went to my mentor's house...


I did manage to get this for my stings, er, troubles. ;)...


So, it was a pretty good day...just ended up with bee equipment rather than bees!!!  I did get permission to set up a swarm trap close by for this spring.  Yelp, even with the 6-7 stings on the hand and arm, it was good...just a little itchy this morning.  :lol:

Ed

[JP]

The dead bees by the window and in the bowl likely got stressed trying to get out through the window. Its common to find them dead by a window and to see pollen streaks. The hive appears very healthy.

BTW, I prefer a very sharp serrated knife for cutting comb. A sharp razor knife comes in handy as well for trimming comb to fit frames. The amount of rubber bands you place on a frame are dependent on the length and depth of the comb you are transferring. If they are tall and wide, sometimes three rubber bands will suffice. If they are tall and skinny you may need as many as six-eight per frame. Just bring a whole bag with you and you will be fine.


...JP

[JP]

You didn't mention whether or not y'all smoked them before pushing the bags in, is what I would have done, if y'all didn't.

Nice find!


...JP

[yockey5]

Wow, bees with a bonus! ya dun goot!

[Intheswamp]

Thanks for the feedback, JP.  I'm glad to hear that the dead bees are normal.  They did seem to be healthy and were bringing in loads of white pollen...I'm not sure what that would have been from....goldenrod is still blooming along with tarweed, a small white aster-looking flower, and a few other things.  But, they were steadily moving it in.  My preacher told me about an old church building that's up the road from me that when he peeked in the door sometime back it had lots of dead bees in it.  Next chance I get I'm going to check it out and see if there's a colony there...then to figure out who has authority over it (it's out in the country and has been abandoned for years).

Thanks for the tip on the serrated knife.  I was thinking that a thin serrated blade would be good...lets it press against the wall, ceiling, or whatever so the comb can be cut flush from the surface.  Makes sense.  I'll be sure to pick up a sharp solid blade for trimming up the comb.

As for the rubberbands and frames...  I'm starting out with all 8-frame mediums so I'll be needing to cut comb down to size.  I shouldn't have too much trouble with keeping the comb stable in the frames and 3 or 4 rubberbands on each end should do fine.  I'll carry the bag "in case". ;)

Lastly, nope...we didn't smoke'em.  I mentioned that I might could use some smoke after I had moved the box out of the way...I guess my mentor didn't figure we needed it...of course he's standing twenty feet away, on the ground, beside the door.   :lol:  I imagine that if I had smoked them I wouldn't have had much trouble from them...but really, they weren't that bad.  If I go back I'll have some smoke. ;)  Interesting thing...not only did I find that smoker in the junk pile but I also found a paper bag full of pinestraw...I should have taken that as "There's your sign!!!".

Anyhow, the stings are ok...I'll just be glad in a day or two when the itching stops.  I'm curious about something, though, I got stung probably 6-7 times on my hands and arms.  I've only got maybe 4 places that I can tell I got stung at (other than seeing the sting mark)...did I simply get the stinger out quicker on the other stings?  I got one on a finger tip that really got my attention...but, no problems with it today.  Kind of interesting....

Ed

[Intheswamp]

Wow, bees with a bonus! ya dun goot!

Well, for now it's gotta be "bee-stings with a bonus".  :)

[JP]

Not all stings or areas where you get stings are created equal. Some stings seem to linger more than others. It really just depends where... it also definitely depends on how fast you get the stinger out!

Good luck in the future with these hives. I look forward to hearing (and seeing) more on these.


...JP

[Intheswamp]

Thanks JP.  Yelp, I've got a couple of stings...one in a palm and one on a fingertip...neither of those are itching or are notable.  One on the wrist, one on top of a finger and one on the inside of the forearm have tended to itch a bit.  There were a couple more that I can't even remember where they were.  Interestingly, the fingertip sting was the one that I felt the most when it happened but is one that has given me mostly no trouble.  Ah well, live and learn. ;)

I'll keep you posted on these ladies...I don't know if we'll get to do a cut out, but I'll definitely be putting up a trap or two this spring.   I think it is a strong hive, there was basically a cloud of bees on the outside of the entrance...steadily going and coming.

Ed