What happened to this hive?

[Gail Di Matteo]

First off, I would like to thank Michael B and Randydrivesabus for answering all my questions over the last few days.

I am not sure what to think about this hive. I want to think they swarmed, but so much honey was left behind; A full deep super on top. This was also my stongest hive. I felt that it should have been split before winter, but I didn't want to feed two hives. Not being lazy, I just feel that the honey and pollen they collect is what they should eat during winter. I was planing on splitting it in the spring.

So my only remaining hive came out today and they were all over the frames/honey. I hope there wasn't a disease in the dead hive. :(

Any suggestions on what to do with the leftover frames? I would rather not harvest the honey...My thoughts were to use them for helping out nucs in the spring.

I appreciate all comments and suggestions.
Thanks,
Gail

[pdmattox]

It is hard to say. Could have been mites,small hive beetles,etc. looks like the other bees are cleaning things up and robbing what they can. I would save the frames of honey and pollen to put with nucs or packages this spring.

[Understudy]

I can't get the images to enlarge. So I can't say anything for sure.


Sincerely,
Brendhan

[pdmattox]

I couldnt enlarge them either but they looked like they have already been robbed clean.

[Gail Di Matteo]

Hello.
The bees you see on  the bottom board are all dead. Those were the only bees left in the hive other than the few dead ones on the few frames. The top deep had 8 frames full of capped honey.

I didn't have mites. These were Russians, and true to their breed, I didn't have that problem. I saw a few over the summer and a sugar shake cleared things right up. Not sure what SHB damage looks like?

Thanks again,
Gail

[Cindi]

Gail, we couldn't enlarge the images.  I think that you may have missed out something when you were working in ImageShack.  When you "hosted" the uploaded pictures into Imageshack, did you click on the line above the picture that says something like "hotlink to Forum 1", then copied and pasted into your post?  That gives thumbnails that viewers can click on to enlarge the pictures.  I think that you may have missed a step or clicked on the wrong line because they did not show up as thumbnails.  Give my instructions a try sometime to see if it helps us to view your pictures better.  They were too small to really see well enough.

I am sorry about your colony, that is a sad thing when something goes wrong.  Still, have a fantastic day.  Cindi

[Gail Di Matteo]

Cindi,
Thanks for the help. I think what I did wrong was I resized the photos in my software, to a webpage thumbnail.? I will try this again.
Thanks,
Gail












I've added this last one to maybe help some more. I dont know why they left one frame undrawn? This frame was in the bottom deep.

Gail

[Cindi]

Gail, good, OK so you resize even before you upload to ImageShack, that is good.  I use VSO image resizer and resize to 640 by 420, that keeps the images under 100kb, usually around 40-60 kb, then when I go into ImageShack I actually use the "hotlink to forums 1" that is below the picture.  Because my images are in such a low kb size I don't use the thumbnails, I just use the full size image thing.  That still apparently is OK for dial-up to see the pictures.  I remember Ann speaking about this being OK.  (I have never checked it out though, so I don't really know for sure, I do hope so).

It is recommended that forum members use the thumbnail format, this is to ensure if they don't resize images properly then the dial-up users can still look at pictures easily.  Have a beautiful day, I am glad your sun is shinin'. Now send some my way, we have had nothing but rain and wind for so long now, forgot what the sun actually looks like, hee, hee  :( ;) :)  Cindi

[Scadsobees]

Hmmm...
SHB damage, from what I've heard, is a slimy stinky mess...not seeing that.
Lots of honey left...that would eliminate robbing and starvation.

Small cluster, few bees left, only a little brood?  I'd guess something was happening over the fall...my guesses:
1. mites being the most likely,
2. or queenlessness,
3. and then the weaknesses induced by secondary diseases.

It looks like they were weak and dwindled down to the point that they couldn't survive and protect their brood.  How were they over the fall?

Rick

[Understudy]

From the looks I can see it looks like it may have gone queenless.
Not enough brood. I don't see waxmoth so I am sticking with queenless for now.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Gail Di Matteo]

Rick,
They were great in the fall. I actually removed a honey super in October. I also did a full hive inspection before winter, so I must have killed the queen when I was putting the frames back in. Its been said many times here, going all shallow supers is the way to go. I will agree. After going through all those frames, I am physically beat. So, I guess I must have got tired and careless and squished the queen. I also researched SHB, and no, can't say that I had that problem.

Brendhan,
Thank you. I appreciate your knowledge and for putting up with us northen'ers. And, for not calling us "Yankees".

Gail

[Understudy]

Brendhan,
Thank you. I appreciate your knowledge and for putting up with us northen'ers. And, for not calling us "Yankees".

Gail

No Worries. I am an LA(Los Angeles) boy myself. I just happen to like living in the swamp.  :)
Besides everyone has to put up with me.  :-D :-D :-D

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[randydrivesabus]

you would not necessarily see brood in a hive around here this time of year.

[Kathyp]

sometimes a lot of honey from a new or smaller hive is a clue to queenlessness.  i learned that the hard way this last year.  i was thrilled that one hive was putting away so much honey when the others were not.  turned out they were not raising brood, so they turned their attention to putting away store.  i was lucky to catch it before i lost the hive, but they did not recover well before winter.  their survival is still in question.

the hive  inspections are necessary and risky no matter what size the boxes.  you will get the hang of removing the outside frames first, and then carefully finding those with brood and probably the queen.  there have been some great posts here about inspections.  with some practice, your chances of squishing your queen will diminish.

i will tell you what i do and others will more experience will add or correct :-)

i take an empty super out and set it next to the hive i am going to inspect.  i remove the top box and set it on a stand.  i remove the outside frames from the bottom box and after looking at them, i put them in the empty super.  the inside 5 or so frames can then be separated and examined for brood, disease, etc. and replaced without squishing.  the brood frames i examine over the box in case the queen drops out.  i then gently push the middle frames back together and replace the outer frames, rotating any undrawn/unfilled frames closer to the middle.  the top super goes back on and the procedure is repeated.

smoking seems to almost always drive the queen down into the bottom box, but not always.  be a little careful moving the top box on and off.  an extra bottom board can be handy if you want to set your super on it while examining the bottom box.

in the end, SH.  no matter how careful you are, things go wrong.  sometimes you do everything right and still it goes wrong.  it's all a learning experience  :-)

[Gail Di Matteo]

Kathy,
Thanks for the insight about clues to queenlessness. I like your idea of the empty box to hold frames (now I have an extra). But, you have raised some more questions for me;

1) How long does the hive "roar" after losing the queen? I checked the hives every weekend, although once it got below 50F, I left them alone to winter.

2)What do you do about pushing the frames together, when there is so much extra comb everywhere? And it has brood in it? Do I scrape it off? Do I not worry about squishing the bees in the way?

Gail

[Kathyp]

i would not count on the roar.  i have had two hives go queenless.  one was obvious by its sound and behavior.  the other was not.  a 3rd hive, i knocked off the queen and they went right to raising another.  they gave no sign of not having a laying queen.  a better way of telling is by the brood.  if you find eggs and  larvae of various ages, you most likely have a queen.  if you do not, they have the material for raising another. 

as for the frames, i just gently push them close together.  i give them a few seconds to move and push the frames again.  i do not try to get them all together in one move.  the bees will move out of the way and the brood will be fine.  it was fine before you moved the frames  :-).  the extra comb can be scraped off as you inspect.  if you find queen cells, you are probably better off leaving them alone and trying to figure out why they are raising a new queen.  they may have lost theirs, or a split is called for.  MB has some good stuff on his page about splits, etc.

you did the right thing leaving them alone for winter.  you need to check for food periodically.  some do it by the weight of the hive.  if it's warm enough, you can pop the top and check.  i prefer to leave them closed because they do a good job of sealing things up for winter.  this year, i put dry sugar on the inner cover of the hives.  i knew they were going into winter with fewer stores than were desirable.  bad year.

seems some hives just will not make it through the winter no matter what you do.