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Offline Variable

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2013, 02:07:47 pm »
Moots,
I will post images once I have a few built. I am ordering the insulation next week and am currently working on the jig to cut the 3/8 fingers for the corner joints. (doing them without a jig ended up being a real pain) Here is a brief rundown of how I plan on building it (very close to how I build a bassinet for my nephew when he was born 18 years ago... god I am getting old)

Inner box. This is the inner most box of the double walls. It is basically a normal 10 frame hive. The only difference between my box and one you can purchase is: Mine have no handles cut in them. The corners are glued but not nailed. I drill a 1/4 inch hole from the top all the way to the bottom of the finger joints and then glue a dowel into that hole. Then from the outside of the box I drill an 1/8 inch hole through the hive and the dowel (the 1/4 inch one in the corners) and glue an 1/8 dowel into that hole. Now the 1/4 inch dowel can not be pulled out (even if the glue fails) without first breaking or drilling out the 1/8 dowel. So now the first box is securely put together and there are no nails or brads.
Now I have to shim the box to allow the space needed for the insulation between the inner and outer wall. I cut down some of the scrap 3/4 inch cedar I have left over after ripping the box down to 6 5/8 into 3/8 inch thick strips. I glue these 3/8 by 3/4 strips all the way around the top and bottom edge of the box. It is now ready for the outer box.  (Once the insulation is cut and placed into the gap created by the shim)
The outer box is basically built the same way. 3/8 finger joints and they wrap all the way around the inner box. I do the same corner dowel trick as I did on the inner box and then drill a series of 1/4 inch holes through the inner and outer box (from the outside edges) making sure that it is centered on the 3/4 inch shim (1/4 inch from top or bottom edge of box) and space them about every 2 inches (the corners are not 2 inches but all the ones between are) and then glue a dowel into those holes (while it is clamped together). I then drill (after the glue has dried) 1/8 inch holes about an 1 inch deep into the top and bottom edges of the hive box making sure to go through the 1/4 dowels that are holding the two boxes together and glue those in as well. Some light sanding after a careful flush cut on each dowel and it is ready to be sealed or painted. To me it looks great and I plan on just clear sealing (not sure what I am going to use yet but probably Rosewood oil)... I am planning on building a screened bottom board with oil tray. This bottom board will NOT be open on the bottom and I am planning on only using it for IPM reasons and not for temp or humidity control.
I want to beelieve.
WA Apiary ID WA14-077
8 medium hives. 5 Langstroth, 3 Nuc
See hive data at
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Moots

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2013, 02:21:56 pm »
Moots,
I will post images once I have a few built. I am ordering the insulation next week and am currently working on the jig to cut the 3/8 fingers for the corner joints. (doing them without a jig ended up being a real pain) Here is a brief rundown of how I plan on building it (very close to how I build a bassinet for my nephew when he was born 18 years ago... god I am getting old)

Inner box. This is the inner most box of the double walls. It is basically a normal 10 frame hive. The only difference between my box and one you can purchase is: Mine have no handles cut in them. The corners are glued but not nailed. I drill a 1/4 inch hole from the top all the way to the bottom of the finger joints and then glue a dowel into that hole. Then from the outside of the box I drill an 1/8 inch hole through the hive and the dowel (the 1/4 inch one in the corners) and glue an 1/8 dowel into that hole. Now the 1/4 inch dowel can not be pulled out (even if the glue fails) without first breaking or drilling out the 1/8 dowel. So now the first box is securely put together and there are no nails or brads.
Now I have to shim the box to allow the space needed for the insulation between the inner and outer wall. I cut down some of the scrap 3/4 inch cedar I have left over after ripping the box down to 6 5/8 into 3/8 inch thick strips. I glue these 3/8 by 3/4 strips all the way around the top and bottom edge of the box. It is now ready for the outer box.  (Once the insulation is cut and placed into the gap created by the shim)
The outer box is basically built the same way. 3/8 finger joints and they wrap all the way around the inner box. I do the same corner dowel trick as I did on the inner box and then drill a series of 1/4 inch holes through the inner and outer box (from the outside edges) making sure that it is centered on the 3/4 inch shim (1/4 inch from top or bottom edge of box) and space them about every 2 inches (the corners are not 2 inches but all the ones between are) and then glue a dowel into those holes (while it is clamped together). I then drill (after the glue has dried) 1/8 inch holes about an 1 inch deep into the top and bottom edges of the hive box making sure to go through the 1/4 dowels that are holding the two boxes together and glue those in as well. Some light sanding after a careful flush cut on each dowel and it is ready to be sealed or painted. To me it looks great and I plan on just clear sealing (not sure what I am going to use yet but probably Rosewood oil)... I am planning on building a screened bottom board with oil tray. This bottom board will NOT be open on the bottom and I am planning on only using it for IPM reasons and not for temp or humidity control.

** emphasis added

Variable,
On the issue of sealing, have you heard of a wood preservative called ECO?  It was mentioned in this thread.

I had never heard of it but did a little reading on it....It seems like an interesting option!


http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,42970.0.html

Offline Variable

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 02:29:01 pm »
Moots,
I had not hear of it until now. It is Hemp oil.... wonder how well it works and how long it last. Time to do more research.... Thanks for the info. I love this forum!!!!!!!!
I want to beelieve.
WA Apiary ID WA14-077
8 medium hives. 5 Langstroth, 3 Nuc
See hive data at
http://twolittleladiesapiary.com/cms/node/6
https://www.facebook.com/twolittleladiesapiary

Moots

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 05:22:12 pm »
Moots,
I had not hear of it until now. It is Hemp oil.... wonder how well it works and how long it last. Time to do more research.... Thanks for the info. I love this forum!!!!!!!!

Variable,
Not to hijack alan's thread and drift too far off topic...But let me know what you find with your research and what you think of ECO wood preservative.  I just finished assembling 17 boxes last night that I had cut earlier this year, was considering starting the painting process tonight.  However, the more I look at this ECO product, I'm seriously considering giving it a try.  Here's a LINK where the guy speaks highly of it, of course...it also looks like he sells it.  :)

I'm also seeing where you can get it through Home Depot shipped to your home, or the store for pick-up, both w/free shipping...Same for Walmart!

None of the reviews on the Home Depot site speak to longevity, but there all quite positive as far as mixing, application, clean up, appearance, etc. etc.   

I might throw out a new thread on this and see if anyone has any experience or opinions on it.

Offline OldMech

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2013, 05:40:01 pm »
   Finger joints will make your corners stronger, definitely.. but I must pose the question.. HOW STRONG do the corners need to be?
  Is it worth the TIME to make those joints?
   Is it worth the cost of the Dado blade?
  Is it worth the extra effort to seal those corners and joints?
   Making the jig isnt too hard. i made one, made quite a few boxes with it..   by the second year they were splitting and warping, normally from the corner of a recess. I still have and use a few of those boxes, but I have to stay on top of them more than I do the rabbit joints or butt joints.
   I switched to rabbiting the edges, and that made a difference in the splitting and warping until it was pointed out to me.. that I would be replacing them in five or so years, give or take a couple anyhow...
   The philosophy I walked away with is that woodenware is disposable. In other words...
    Make it GOOD, EASILY.
   I have been building butt joints, and have had some pretty surprised people using them..  No splitting, separating etc..  the corners are easy to seal and keep sealed. I use glue and BRAD nails. The boxes are strong enough that i can stand my fat *#$ on the CORNER endwise without it giving up. I would imagine if I bounced on it it would break, but then I can probably break the other joints too..
    I have boxes inherited from my mentor that are close to eight years old. butt joints, and they are still doing fine. I also have already replaced most of the box joints I built.    
    The difference may be in the details, what paint you use etc...   I use the cheapest exterior paint I can find.. once its chipped off the corners it doesnt matter how expensive it was..   Maybe I am not sealing the box joints well enough, they need more than two coats of paint.... it remains, the butt joints dont, they seem happy with cheap paint, and the bees havent complained yet, despite being female. (oops, did I say that?)

   It is ESSENTIAL, that you build them like you want!! I am just pointing out something that made life a LOT easier for me.

    I dont try to build fortresses anymore. I sell quite a few, and have no complaints. I have lost sales because they are not box joints, and I have lost sales because the hand holds are routed and not undercut like commercial hives.. I am OK with that.. I build them for MY use. Selling a few is just a bonus.

  

   
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline OldMech

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2013, 05:53:15 pm »
Moots,
I had not hear of it until now. It is Hemp oil.... wonder how well it works and how long it last. Time to do more research.... Thanks for the info. I love this forum!!!!!!!!

Variable,
Not to hijack alan's thread and drift too far off topic...But let me know what you find with your research and what you think of ECO wood preservative.  I just finished assembling 17 boxes last night that I had cut earlier this year, was considering starting the painting process tonight.  However, the more I look at this ECO product, I'm seriously considering giving it a try.  Here's a LINK where the guy speaks highly of it, of course...it also looks like he sells it.  :)

I'm also seeing where you can get it through Home Depot shipped to your home, or the store for pick-up, both w/free shipping...Same for Walmart!

None of the reviews on the Home Depot site speak to longevity, but there all quite positive as far as mixing, application, clean up, appearance, etc. etc.   

I might throw out a new thread on this and see if anyone has any experience or opinions on it.


    I am always all about simplicity.. I'd like to hear a bit more about the stuff.. it soaks into the wood like a stain I presume? If it does it may indeed help with that rotting corner issue as well as sealing box joints better, inside and out..  not that I intend to go back to them now  :-P
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline sterling

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 07:37:13 pm »
Moots,
I had not hear of it until now. It is Hemp oil.... wonder how well it works and how long it last. Time to do more research.... Thanks for the info. I love this forum!!!!!!!!

Variable,
Not to hijack alan's thread and drift too far off topic...But let me know what you find with your research and what you think of ECO wood preservative.  I just finished assembling 17 boxes last night that I had cut earlier this year, was considering starting the painting process tonight.  However, the more I look at this ECO product, I'm seriously considering giving it a try.  Here's a LINK where the guy speaks highly of it, of course...it also looks like he sells it.  :)

I'm also seeing where you can get it through Home Depot shipped to your home, or the store for pick-up, both w/free shipping...Same for Walmart!

None of the reviews on the Home Depot site speak to longevity, but there all quite positive as far as mixing, application, clean up, appearance, etc. etc.   

I might throw out a new thread on this and see if anyone has any experience or opinions on it.
Moots I have been using the ECO for a couple maybe three years. It is easy to put on and cleanup is nothing just wash brush with water. As to how long it will make the wood last I don't know. I'll let you know in a few years. With time in the weather it turns the wood a dark gray. I'm using it on cypress so maybe they will outlast me.

Offline sterling

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 07:45:29 pm »
this hive was treated with ECO if the picture works. I like the color but many people like colors and don't like the rustic look. Just thought I would show what it looks before you try it.


Offline danno

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2013, 08:38:44 pm »
Allen buy, build or do Craig's list .  biggest thing is think ahead were you will by in 5 or 10 years.    if you are getting up in years think about 8 frame mediums instead of 2 deep 10 frame.  I went the 10 frame deeps thing and have about 200 of them and cant turn back  I should add I' m 56 with a good back knock on wood 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:48:11 pm by danno »

Offline theBeeLord

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2013, 09:25:53 pm »
wow - i was off the forum for a day and had a whole page of reading to catch up (just on my post).
i've started with 8 frame hives (learned from my neighbor who started with 10) and i love the relative ease of handling my box vs my neighbor's.
i'm still in my 30's -- so i would like to think i'll be doing this for decades.  maybe at some point even recouping some of the costs.

i love the idea by variable - but am thinking for me, at this stage, might be a bit much.  if i build i'll probably do something simpler like OldMech - at least until i get more comfortable with box making.  (and have more free time).

interesting side conversations about sealers/paints.  can't really have a conversation about building your own vs buying without talking about choice of sealers. 
i'd still like to get a time estimate of how long it takes the box builders to build one box - start to finish.  and then i'm going to triple that nr when i calculate how long it would take me LOL

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2013, 09:54:09 pm »
i'd still like to get a time estimate of how long it takes the box builders to build one box - start to finish.  and then i'm going to triple that nr when i calculate how long it would take me LOL

Alan,
Not trying to dodge your question, but couldn't even venture a good guess on time for building one box.  But understand, building one box would be a terribly inefficient use of time because so much time is spent in prep and setup.  Think economies of scale...






Offline Royall

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2013, 10:23:18 pm »
I don’t try to run a race when I make bee boxes but I try to learn to be efficient with my set ups. Doing things in a set sequence saves time by not having to reset the saw back to a single blade after getting the stacked dado installed. The following is the steps I take to build the deep box. I can make two boxes in about 35-45 minutes.

Rip two 12”x96” wide boards to width on the talblesaw.

Use a cutting sled to cut the end and side boards.

Set the stacked dado to 13/16” with a sacrificial board on the fence so I can get a 3/4” wide x 3/8” deep rabbet on the end board for the side boards to fit into.

Move fence over to cut the 5/8” rabbet along the top of the end board.

Take the sacrificial board off the fence and move it 3” away from the dado head to the edge of my “stop jig” and run grooves 6” x 13/16” x 5/8” deep, in all four sides.

Add glue to the side rabbets and assemble with 1 1/2", 1/4” crown staples.

Check for square and let dry overnight.

If I were making a bunch of boxes, the time per box goes down a lot.

I guess I could do them faster if I wasn't watching where my fingers were all the time!!  :-D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:49:41 pm by Royall »

Moots

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2013, 10:45:19 pm »

I guess I could do them faster if I wasn't watching where my fingers were all the time!!  :-D


Royall,
This is a great point which I don't think can be overstated.  No doubt, we're all busy and our time is valuable, we all only get 24 hours a day.  HOWEVER, we also all only get 8 fingers and 2 thumbs to last us a lifetime.

Anyone who feels their time is so limited that they need to be watching a clock or thinking, "I need to hurry", while building woodenware...Would be well served to turn off the saw, go home, sit at their computer, and order some woodenware.  :-D

Offline theBeeLord

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2013, 11:26:10 pm »
exactly Moots,
sometimes you can hurry, and sometimes you can't.  when dealing with sharp objects, best to take your time.

as much as i enjoy wood working, with a wife and kids, i can only get away with doing so many things that "I" enjoy before it starts to negatively impact them.  so i try to be a good steward, and DO myself when i can, buy when i cannot.  my wife's greatest complaint is that i under-estimate how long it will take me to do something. 
variable, your design for the hive box sounds very interesting - from so many angles - the cedar, the double wall, the insulation - definitely something i'd like to see some pictures of.  and maybe one day, attempt to build myself.
thanks

Moots

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2013, 11:54:44 pm »
Alan,
I know exactly what you're saying...
Not to be discouraging, but just being honest...I think your time investment will most likely be more than you are expecting, and without a doubt, much more than your wife is expecting.  :-D  At least that was my experience.  :laugh:

However, I think you have time on your side, we're still a week away from December, you won't be getting bees for several months...If I were you, I'd decide how many boxes you think you'll need.  Buy the lumber to make TWICE as many boxes, YES..TWICE AS MANY...trust me, and approach is piecemeal...sneak off to the workshop when time allows for an hour or two here and there.  Cut your boards to length one day, rip them another, cut your rabbets another...etc. etc.

And when it's all said and done, it will have all taken you much more time than you expected, but you will have enjoyed every minute of it...And while your wife may not be thrilled with it, she'll get over it...as I tell my friends, it's not a divorce-able offense.  :-D

Good Luck!  :)

Offline OldMech

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2013, 11:43:45 am »
were not going to the finger thing again are we???    hehe

   I would say about ten to fifteen minutes as I build them, not counting paint.. IF I only built one box...

   Not taking into consideration building the jigs I have for routed handles or assembling the boxes...   I built 8 boxes;   cutting side boards, end boards and ripping them to 6 5/8...  adjusting the table saw to 5/8 by 3/8 and running the end boards.. adjusting to 3/8 by 5/8 and running them again to make the frame rests.. nail/glue them together..   around a half hour...   let glue dry overnight...   drop jigs on and rout the handholds.. about 1 min per side...   a little over a half hour... so an hour give or take a few mins for 8 boxes comes to about 7.5 minutes per box..  without rushing but not having to waste any time..   It would be a bit longer doing box joints but not exceptionally so if you had your jig set up and ready to drop on the table.. of course, there is swapping to the dado blade to add a few more minutes.   Dado blade is also nice for making the frame rests, but consideration for swapping the blade as opposed to adjusting the guide makes it just as easy to use the normal blade and make two passes.
   The first boxes are the hardest..  making sure your measurements are right, making a board to set your box parts into to line them up for quick and easy nailing etc.. but after you have done a couple it gets pretty easy fast.   Rather than CUTTING hand holds, you can make a cleat to nail to each side and avoid the trouble..  I dont like cleats because I wrap my hives for winter and they get in the way so i route the handholds.
   Its the frames that take time.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Moots

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2013, 11:55:59 am »
Its the frames that take time.

OldMech,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't want to confuse Alan...I take it your above statement refers to "making" and not simply assembling frames.  I don't think Alan was considering going there...I know I'm not!  :laugh:

Order frames unassembled, build yourself a jig, and those can be knocked out rather quickly.  Now, I do use wax foundation and wire my frames and if I had to pick one step in the process that is probably my least favorite and takes a little time, I'd have to say wiring frames.  But that's a whole other story.  :-D

Offline OldMech

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2013, 03:33:19 pm »
Its the frames that take time.

OldMech,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't want to confuse Alan...I take it your above statement refers to "making" and not simply assembling frames.  I don't think Alan was considering going there...I know I'm not!  :laugh:

Order frames unassembled, build yourself a jig, and those can be knocked out rather quickly.  Now, I do use wax foundation and wire my frames and if I had to pick one step in the process that is probably my least favorite and takes a little time, I'd have to say wiring frames.  But that's a whole other story.  :-D

    My apologies for not being clear. Yes, making frames from scratch...  2x8x12 comes in the door and 49 frames go out.. barring splits and knots of course :)
   Comes from having too much time...   Currently I dont wire using all mediums, but considering running one wire at least on the super frames.. will see how extraction goes next year.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline Royall

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2013, 03:59:37 pm »

[/quote] My apologies for not being clear. Yes, making frames from scratch...  2x8x12 comes in the door and 49 frames go out.. barring splits and knots of course.[/quote]

OM, are making all the frame components out of the 2x8? I make my frames all out of pine as doug fir is too knotty and all that comes into Hawai'i has been treated with HiBore for termites. The only 2x pine I can find is 16' T&G. After ripping the T&G off, I end up with only about 4" of usable board. That being said, the remainder of the components come out of 1x pine. I did have some straight grain fir left over from a project that worked OK but is too expensive to use otherwise. Sure wish I could get 2x6 or 2x8 pine here.

Offline OldMech

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Re: build vs buy used
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2013, 06:06:21 pm »

My apologies for not being clear. Yes, making frames from scratch...  2x8x12 comes in the door and 49 frames go out.. barring splits and knots of course.[/quote]

OM, are making all the frame components out of the 2x8? I make my frames all out of pine as doug fir is too knotty and all that comes into Hawai'i has been treated with HiBore for termites. The only 2x pine I can find is 16' T&G. After ripping the T&G off, I end up with only about 4" of usable board. That being said, the remainder of the components come out of 1x pine. I did have some straight grain fir left over from a project that worked OK but is too expensive to use otherwise. Sure wish I could get 2x6 or 2x8 pine here.
[/quote]

   Yeah Royall.. you can use any 2x material 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 etc...  one 12' piece of 2x8 yields 49 top and bottom bars..  you can get 7 out of the length, and seven out of the width.. when trimming the 2x material to square it you get the bottom bar off of each piece..   Yes, knots and splits take their toll..
   I try to use 2x10 or 2x12 when I do the side plates.. just means less cutting, kerfing and routing to make more plates.



  the piece on the right is a 1" sliced out of the 2x material, the next two are after trimming to 1" square. the middle one is after trimming the shoulders..  etc...    the side plates i use the planer to make the whole piece 1 3/8, then stand the board on end, raise the table saw blade up as far as it will go and kerf the sides 1/8 of an inch.. its easier than it sounds..  then I use a 5/8 router bit, center it in the 1 1/8 side (narrow) and route the bottom..  flip the piece over and route it again, turn it around and route it a third time making the top groove about 7/8..   then just run them through the table saw at the thickness you want your side plates.  I use a push stick doing that on the last few to try to keep all my remaining fingers attached.
   takes time.. but I have built about 800 of them in the last three weeks.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

 

anything