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Author Topic: Winter Covers  (Read 5463 times)

Offline Bush_84

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Winter Covers
« on: November 22, 2013, 05:03:12 pm »
So I'm sure that this has been talked to death, but I need a winter project.  I don't really need to make much for hive bodies or anything this winter so my thoughts are going towards possible winter wraps/covers.  I don't have a ton of hives and aim to keep 5-8 hives in a typical year.  So it's not difficult to go over the top to give my hives a winter edge.  I started to think about WBC hives and wonder if it'd be worth it for me to put an insulated box over my hive bodies.  A box within a box so to speak.  I could paint it black and just slip it over the hive for easy winter prep and use it year after year.  I could even just wrap the box in tarpaper and leave it I place.  I figure the easiest way would be to use plywood and 2x4s in the corners of the box. 

So I suppose my questions are-
1. Anybody with any experience in this?
2. What type of insulation would be best to use?

Specifically with question 2 it's important to keep in mine that this box will not be exposed to the elements.  So I could realistically use that fiberglass stuff they use in walls.  The solid stuff may be easier to work with but will be more expensive to obtain. 
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 06:21:41 pm »
I know a couple who made boxes from the pink foam board. gluing it together using toothpicks to hold it while the glue dried. They were painted black when dry..  biggest issue I saw was the gap between the foam and the upper entrance if the foam box isnt tight or pushed back against the front of the hive..  I saw them in place, so can only assume the tele cover wasnt on them.   Let you know next spring how they worked!

   The biggest advantage I think would be weight. storage would be an issue at my place.....
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline S.M.N.Bee

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2013, 11:18:09 am »
I use this type of insulated box to winter my bees. Mine are made of 1 1/2" foil face foam insulation. I glue the corners of the boxes with PL 200 foam board adhesive sold at Menards. I than tape all exposed foam and seams with foil tape. I than paint the outside of the foam box with two coats of latex paint. You could skip this but I feel it adds strength to the foil facing. I than glue a sheet of aluminum on top for a roof.

My boxes sit on a "U" shaped wooden angles that are screwed to my hive stands. This angle seals the bottom of the box on all but the entrance side.

I like this system. My hives are standard Lang. 10 frame. The only none standard piece is a 1 3/4" deep outer cover that I use to replace the telescoping
outer cover. It is the same length and width as an inner cover so it does not extend past the outside dimensions of the hive. The cover also acts like an upside down tray to cover five pounds of insurance sugar I place on top of the inner cover.  I usually check this reserve at the end of February. If the bees are consuming it they may be running low on stores and I will add more. If not I replace the cover and check back in another month.

John

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2013, 05:05:31 pm »
My boxes have handles.  Any issues with the air gap that'll result?
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2013, 07:26:45 pm »
I use this type of insulated box to winter my bees. Mine are made of 1 1/2" foil face foam insulation. I glue the corners of the boxes with PL 200 foam board adhesive sold at Menards. I than tape all exposed foam and seams with foil tape. I than paint the outside of the foam box with two coats of latex paint. You could skip this but I feel it adds strength to the foil facing. I than glue a sheet of aluminum on top for a roof.

My boxes sit on a "U" shaped wooden angles that are screwed to my hive stands. This angle seals the bottom of the box on all but the entrance side.

I like this system. My hives are standard Lang. 10 frame. The only none standard piece is a 1 3/4" deep outer cover that I use to replace the telescoping
outer cover. It is the same length and width as an inner cover so it does not extend past the outside dimensions of the hive. The cover also acts like an upside down tray to cover five pounds of insurance sugar I place on top of the inner cover.  I usually check this reserve at the end of February. If the bees are consuming it they may be running low on stores and I will add more. If not I replace the cover and check back in another month.

John

what type of foam and do you seal the seams on the inside as well? i'm assuming no top entrance or vent.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline S.M.N.Bee

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2013, 08:59:25 pm »
Bush 
I also have handles protruding from the exterior of my boxes. Mine stick out 1 1/4" so I build my boxes 2 1/2" larger than the hive boxes on the handle sides and 1 1/2" larger on the other sides. This space has an odd issue. I face the notch in my inner cover toward the back of the hive and upward. The bees sometimes use this notch to clean out the there dead witch they than drop in the space between the boxes. I have not experienced any negative issues with them doing this so far.

I like this system so far. This will be my fourth winter running the covers. It has been my experience however that the colony needs to be healthy and large enough going into winter. A small cluster will not survive. I also have not had any moisture issues with this system. The moist air exits threw the notch in the inner cover, enters the space between the boxes and condenses there instead of inside of the hive.

Derekm
The foam board is made of polyisocyanurate with a foil facing. The foam board adhesive seals the seams fairly well but I also cover the seams with foil tape on the inside and outside.
As I stated above the notch on the inner cover vents into the space between the boxes. I also have two vent holes drilled in the front side of the insulated box, They are about one third and two thirds of the way up from the bottom of the box. I can plug or un plug these depending on the weather. I have to say though that I am starting the think that they are not needed.

John     

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 11:54:31 pm »
http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/insulation/panels/2-foil-faced-insulation-panel/p-1356991-c-5779.htm

Something like that I'm assuming?  I'm also assuming you face the insulation inside?  I currently have an eke on top of my hive that holds 10 lbs of sugar.  So I'm hoping that helps out with a lot of things.  I may tinker with this idea this winter. 
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 07:25:48 am »
S m n bee. I use the same system but with 2" PIR board as covers and as complete hives. The bees stay in the PIR hives all year. The system here is no top entrance no top vent solid 1" PIR floor, on hive stands.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline S.M.N.Bee

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 10:50:51 am »
That's the stuff Bush except I am using  1 1/2 inch and yes I am facing all exposed foam with foil tape.

derekm
Here I only run the covers from about October to the middle of May.



John

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2013, 05:06:39 am »
Try doubling the roof thickness on smaller colonies
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline S.M.N.Bee

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2013, 07:33:13 pm »
Thanks derekm. I forgot to mention that my roofs are three inches thick.

John

Offline capt44

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2013, 08:37:24 pm »
I'm confused.
I understand the insulation is to hold heat but what happens when the hive is at it's normal temperature (whatever that may be) then it warms up.
It seems to me the insulation would have reversed properties in that it would not let the hive warm up, similar to a refrigerator.
Richard Vardaman (capt44)

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2013, 10:19:58 pm »
I'm confused.
I understand the insulation is to hold heat but what happens when the hive is at it's normal temperature (whatever that may be) then it warms up.
It seems to me the insulation would have reversed properties in that it would not let the hive warm up, similar to a refrigerator.

Capt.
I think folks using these type of insulation methods are in areas with true winters...Places where it simple doesn't warm up for weeks, if not months.

Offline Vance G

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2013, 11:11:56 pm »
Capt44 your argument is one offered by some northern beeks who don't wrap.  It may only warm up where the bees could fly a few hours of the day and if the bees are in an insulated hive they may not even know of the opportunity for a cleansing flight.  I wrap and keep em wrapped tight til they are swarm sized myself and the nucs are wrapped later than that.  I do it cause it works for me.

Offline JackM

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2013, 10:14:17 am »
My boxes have handles.  Any issues with the air gap that'll result?
Actually with any insulation you are creating dead air space.  The materials themselves are not the insulator, the air spaces the material creates is what makes it insulate.  Big air gaps - > 1/2 inch are less effective.  What is necessary is a way to prevent that air from moving and thus carrying the 'heat' away. The ideal air space is .25 inch or less.

Remember heat always moves to cold.

So, in a wet environment, I would use something like foam board as it will not soak up water and loose the air spaces in the material like the fiberglass or rockwool or cellulose types.  But it has to be painted/covered to protect from UV,

A 1 inch airspace with an insulation is by far better than no insulation, so the handles should not really have an effect. 

To use the foam board is easy, relatively inexpensive for a few hives, glues easily, cuts with a pocket knife, and if painted will last for many years. 

So, the answer about the 'what if it gets too hot'....I don't have one.  But with proper ventilation, there should not be a problem.  The bees will control the air movement in the hive, what do they do in the summer when it gets too hot?  Like I mentioned somewhere, I am seeing mine flying at the low 40 degree range on decent days.  They did not do that before I made the slide over boxes....just take off the cover and slide them down in place...alll the way to the ground.  They are just as much a wind barrier as insulation.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2013, 01:21:18 pm »
I'm confused.
I understand the insulation is to hold heat but what happens when the hive is at it's normal temperature (whatever that may be) then it warms up.
It seems to me the insulation would have reversed properties in that it would not let the hive warm up, similar to a refrigerator.
no thats not how it works. if you have the hive on a stand, if the outside air is warmer than the inside the colder air will fall out of the bottom entrance and warm air will enter.
The cold air in the bottom of the hive will be denser than the air outside.
however, with these levels of insulation its prpbably warm inside anyway.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2013, 01:25:46 pm »
Thanks derekm. I forgot to mention that my roofs are three inches thick.

John

then go 3 times :) the roof is the biggest surface area and it has the highest temperature differential.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2013, 01:30:09 pm »
My boxes have handles.  Any issues with the air gap that'll result?
Actually with any insulation you are creating dead air space.  The materials themselves are not the insulator, the air spaces the material creates is what makes it insulate.  Big air gaps - > 1/2 inch are less effective.  What is necessary is a way to prevent that air from moving and thus carrying the 'heat' away. The ideal air space is .25 inch or less.

Remember heat always moves to cold.

So, in a wet environment, I would use something like foam board as it will not soak up water and loose the air spaces in the material like the fiberglass or rockwool or cellulose types.  But it has to be painted/covered to protect from UV,

A 1 inch airspace with an insulation is by far better than no insulation, so the handles should not really have an effect.  

To use the foam board is easy, relatively inexpensive for a few hives, glues easily, cuts with a pocket knife, and if painted will last for many years.  

So, the answer about the 'what if it gets too hot'....I don't have one.  But with proper ventilation, there should not be a problem.  The bees will control the air movement in the hive, what do they do in the summer when it gets too hot?  Like I mentioned somewhere, I am seeing mine flying at the low 40 degree range on decent days.  They did not do that before I made the slide over boxes....just take off the cover and slide them down in place...alll the way to the ground.  They are just as much a wind barrier as insulation.


c
Our hives are made out this stuff and they are in it all year. This year we had 32 to  35C in summer  thats 95F. With less bearding than wood. Thats bottom entrance only with an insulated floor.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2013, 02:06:53 pm »
What is trying to be acomplished by adding insulation?
 I think that if you are trying to keep it warmer in the hive you are taking the wrong approach.  Isulated surfaces on a hive are only effective at reducing condensation.  Condensation reduction is good only on the top surface, so the water does not rain down on the bees.
 I belive that condensation is a good thing on the hive walls as it strips the moisture from the warm  air and sends it down the walls to the bottom of the hive and out.   To reduce the moisture in a well insulated hive you have to keep airflow constant.  The moisture gets carried outside along with your warm air.  
In my opinion the less you insulate the less you have to ventilate, thus keeping the warm moisture reduced air inside the hive.
I am not a scientist and I may be way off base but it seems to make sense, to me anyway.  

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2013, 07:11:38 pm »
Bees like it hot and humid~ 30C+ and 75%RH. This will form condensation above 20C. A Bottom entrance and no top vent will trap the heat and humidity the bees require.


If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline S.M.N.Bee

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Re: Winter Covers
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2013, 01:01:13 pm »
For me the biggest advantage I see to using this kind of cover is ease of use. When I started bee keeping I read a lot of posts here and on other forum's . Providing a protection from the wind was something a lot of beekeepers did and insulation was used to a lesser degree. Winterizing one of my hives couldn't be simpler. I simply exchange the telescoping cover for my wintering cover and place the insulating cover on top of the hive. I than place a brick on for weight.

This system is not for everyone. These covers are bulky and take a lot of storage space. For someone like me that runs a few hives storage is not an issue.

John

 

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