Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BlueBee on February 02, 2011, 04:41:09 pm

Title: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2011, 04:41:09 pm
In light of the new foot of snow we got here in Michigan, and drifts over my hives,  I decided to see if I needed to go shovel my hives out or not.  There have been plenty of people worried about the bees suffocating in their hives from all the snow this winter, so I decided to see what the math says. 

First we need to figure out how much air is really in a hive.  Since there is comb, honey, and bees (if we’re lucky) filling up most of the room, there really isn’t that much room for air in a hive!  Let’s assume a 2 deep configuration (10 frames) with a bee space of 3/8” between each frame, let’s assume ½”between the frames 1 and 10 to the box bodies

Those gaps give a volume of about 4.3”total gaps x 19.25”T x 14.5”W = 1200 cubic inches.

Next I have to add the volume parts under the inner cover, between upper and lower body, and above the bottom board. 

Those gaps total about 1.5” giving a volume of 1.5”thick x 14.5”W x 18.25”L = 396 cubic inches.

Adding these two parts we can a total hive air volume of 1596 cubic inches.

1 gallon = 231 cubic inches 

So there is an air volume of about 7 gallons in a 2 deep hive. 

Next I make a comparison between bees and humans to drive home the point that 7 gallons of air for the bees is really not that much!  (Thomas, I know you always love to compare bees and humans)

A human eating an USDA diet of 2000 calories a day has an average energy output of 100 watts.  That heat output comes from metabolizing the sugars that our foods are broken down to.   The bees also generate heat by metabolizing sugars (i.e. honey).   To convert the chemical energy in sugar into heat, you need oxygen in both cases.  Sugar + O2 -> Heat out. 

(Frameshift, yes I’m obviously skipping the detailed steps in that conversion: glycolysis, Krebs cycle, etc)

Converting sugars to heat require requires oxygen rather you’re a bee or a human.  It’s chemical.

According to Finski’s reports from Canada, a bee colony generates from 20watts to 40watts of heat to keep the cluster warm in the winter (if you are using cold wooden hives).  Let’s assume the bees are making 20 watts of heat for now.  If the bees are outputting 20 watts of energy then they are generating 1/5 the energy output of a human (on average) and will need 1/5 the oxygen for the chemical conversion of sugar to heat.

If you invert that, you can see that a human burns 5 times the sugar of a bee hive and hence needs 5 times to air (oxygen) for our chemical reactions.    Bare with me, this is where it gets interesting:

What that means, is if the bees are completely sealed in their hive by ice, they only have 7 gallons of air to breath.  That would be similar to locking a human in an air tight box with only 35 gallons of air to live on.  That’s like sticking your head in a large 35 gallon garbage can and seeing how long YOU can live!

We discovered during Apollo 13 that living with small volumes of air can be a problem!  Actually we (and the bees) would croak from too much CO2 in the air long before we croak from a lack of O2.  Either way, we really would not last long at the energy outputs we (and the bees) are generating.

The math (or I should say MY math) says your bees WILL suffocate if there is not an exchange of air in the hive in a timely fashion.  Snow will not prevent an exchange of air, but an iced over hive might. 
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: BjornBee on February 02, 2011, 05:09:05 pm
I have never experienced it, never known a first hand account, or ever read a report, of any hive EVER suffocating.

I had hives completely buried in snow. Nothing but a bump in the snow. buried beneath 2 feet of snow. And several days later, they were fine when I finally dug them out.

Now if you have hives encased in ice, that is one thing. But anytime the sun or the warmth of a hive can melt even a sliver of ice off the sides of the hive, which is the case 99.9% of the time, they will not suffocate.

And for all those worried about clearing snow and ice from the front of a hive, it has little impact and comes down to worrying about nothing.

Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2011, 05:16:24 pm
I don’t doubt your experience BjornBee, I just ran the math for fun.   I’m snow bound and had nothing else to do  :-D

I do not plan to shovel out my hives, unless they do get encased in ice. 

I was a bit surprised with the math myself, I didn’t intuitively think they consumed that much O2.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Course Bee on February 02, 2011, 05:19:50 pm
Check out Finski's hives. I don't think he would be doing this if he thought that they might suffocate.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31313.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31313.0.html)

Tim
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2011, 05:33:43 pm
CourseBee,

Bees in insulated hives (like Finski’s) don’t need to generate as much heat as bees in cold American wood boxes.  That means Finski’s bees eat less food, their energy outputs are lower, and hence their oxygen needs are less.  Finski’s bees are not going to suffocate.  Don’t get Finski going about the pros of insulation again  :)

Air will move through snow too, so Finski’s hives will not suffocate.  I would be more concerned about iced over hives.  Air can’t move through ice since there are no pores.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Bee-Bop on February 02, 2011, 09:06:51 pm
 :?
You hear a lot about shoveling snow of of sidewalks, driveways etc, and Heart Attacks !

Wonder if their are any stastics on beekeepers worried about their bees, shoveling their hives out and Heart Attacks !

Yep, it sure been a long hard winter so far !   :imsorry:

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: AllenF on February 02, 2011, 09:32:20 pm
I don't know about heart attacks, but I know going over all those numbers and figures made my head start hurting.   Snow must really be deep up there to work all those numbers.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: tandemrx on February 02, 2011, 10:47:24 pm
I enjoyed Bluebees calculations

Actually I think the calculation has to go much deeper, because humans only use about 10% of the oxygen taken in a breath (and exchange about 500ml with each breath, so about 8 liters a minute), so based on your calculation of 35 gallon equivalent, it would take a human about 17 minutes to breath all the available air in that 35 gallons, and then they will have only removed 10% of the oxygen.

While they will have expelled CO2, that also is not a really hug percentage of the gases available, and more to the point, it is not a sealed system as there would be some gas exchange (and gas absorption) even probably through very deep snow.

So some analysis of actual level of gases, and at what point there is insufficient oxygen (or too much of other gases) to survive.  And of course figure out exactly what bees really consume in terms of oxygen.  Boy, this would be a very complex book of equations!

I think that people can last a long time buried under an avalanche (air wise) if they have even a small space available to breathe.

All that being said, I still plan snow shoeing out to the bee yard tomorrow to clear off some of the snow, but mostly so I can visit the hives, say hi to the bees, and make sure that ONCE IT WARMS UP (tonight's low temp is -7F   :shock:) that they will have an exit to do cleansing flights.  :-P
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 01:38:50 am
.
For snowing drill an upper entrance to the hive. So main entrance plogging does not hurt the hive.

My hives are 100 miles away, and I have arranged the things so that they are just there.
Awfull to be worried all the time what is happening.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 01:43:53 am

You do not sleep there at all. Here time is 7:43 in the morning.

Here day lengt is now 8 hour.

Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: BlueBee on February 03, 2011, 01:46:07 am
No we do not sleep here Finski

We're worried about our bees  :-D
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 01:47:57 am
No we do not sleep here Finski

We're worried about our bees  :-D

As you see, I am too worried about your bees, not mine.  :roll:
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: T Beek on February 03, 2011, 06:31:45 am
Wow, some of you just can't resist comparing bees and humans.  Unfortunately, doing so makes the argument/debate weaker, not stronger. 

No wonder there's so much confusion in beekeeping :roll: when even the "experts" play the game.  Not all experts make good teachers.

thomas
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 09:23:55 am
.
'
That is a new term "confusion beekeeping"
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: T Beek on February 03, 2011, 09:32:37 am
Hard to tell sometimes if you're being serious or just a wiseguy Finski, but with all the opinions being spread around I think most beeks begin their journey with bees pretty confused, especially if they spend TOO much time on beekeeping forums and not enough time getting acquainted with their bees :-D

thomas
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 09:47:13 am
..
I just told to our forum about "thermometer infrared pistol".
One guy wanted at once to try to find a queen with that pistol.

It would be better to find out right lotto numbers : "how to become rich with infrared pistol"
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Acebird on February 04, 2011, 03:54:42 pm
Quote
Not all experts make good teachers.

Very few experts make good teachers.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 04, 2011, 08:43:06 pm

Very few experts make good teachers.

Who are then good tearchers? Those who know nothing?

Beekeepers love humbug. You cannot beat them with knowledge.

To many beeks beekeeping and form is social happenig. It is not so important how the things really are.

And saving the globe with beekeeping style  is more important than honey yield. 

Here the average age of beekeepers is 64 years. It is good if they walk with their own legs.

.

.
Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Acebird on February 05, 2011, 10:09:27 am
Quote
Who are then good tearchers?

In order of importance:

1. Motivators of others
2. Patient type
3. Determined to succeed
4. Takes pleasure in others succeeding
5. Knowledgeable

Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Finski on February 05, 2011, 10:20:13 am
Quote
Who are then good tearchers?

In order of importance:

1. Motivators of others
2. Patient type
3. Determined to succeed
4. Takes pleasure in others succeeding
5. Knowledgeable



You mean that some one do that without payment?

Yes, and students may be like what ever gangsters.

Basic of learning is that some one wants to learn new things. He searches so long that he find a suitable menthor.

Title: Re: Hive Suffocation Analysis
Post by: Acebird on February 05, 2011, 11:25:46 am
Quote
Basic of learning is that some one wants to learn new things. He searches so long that he find a suitable menthor.


This type of student is self motivated and does not require teacher.  Any fool will do.